self medication with alcohol questions

[ktgrok]

deleted for privacy reasons

Edited April 22, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Carol in Cal.]

Initial thoughts—

He might benefit a lot from some more sun exposure.  That improves D and also can be a mood enhancer.

Also, he might benefit from aerobic exercise, which tends to be a mood enhancer in addition to being a healthy choice.  Jogging or hiking outside with some sunshine involved might be just what the doctor ordered.  Can he join a local club that sponsors get togethers to do that?  It’s a good substitute for the social aspects of drinking as well.

He might have some inexperience with enjoying the company of others without having a drink with them.  That’s usually partly locational and partly his routine.  It’s a harder thing to change, particularly the first one.  (For instance, when we go to the mountains, DH has some friends that he meets up with at the bar.  That is the only place they really socialize, and it’s the only place to socialize in the whole area, so drinking alcohol and having friendships are pretty much inseparable.).  So for that the question would be, can he go to that location but have a festive drink that does not contain alcohol, and still have as nice a time socially?  

I don’t think that alcohol is mostly a depressant in the sense that you mention.  I think in small amounts it tends to make people joyful and expansive, and then in larger amounts it makes them sleepy (the depressant aspect), and then in still larger amounts it can have serious effects.  The self-medication thing has to do more with it being an escape, albeit a temporary one.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Carol in Cal.

[Serenade]

I am one who thinks small amounts of alcohol (controlled as you described) can be as effective as prescription medication.  I'm not sure a drink or two is worse on your body than the equivalent in prescription drugs, but I'm not a doctor. 

I think the reason that the "alcohol effect" carries over to the next day when not drinking is because if someone is relaxed in the evening and feeling good, that carries over for a while -- kind of like an object in motion tends to stay in motion, a person in a good mood tends to stay in a good mood. 🙂

I think it's good that this person is aware of his drinking and is concerned about over-consuming.  I'm hoping that will keep consumption in check.  However, I see no harm in modest drinking (1 - 2 drinks a day), if it doesn't escalate beyond that.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Serenade

[prairiewindmomma]

Is there an underlying problem of anxiety? 

[Scarlett]

To me it is the ritual.  I am that way.  Even with something as non controversial as coffee....If I don't have my cup of coffee in the morning things feel off for me.  Sometimes I don't even like the way it tastes.  I will sometimes just hold it in my hands and take a few sips over the course of an hour of watching the news with dh in bed.  

And I can see myself being the same way with a glass of two of wine in the evening.  When I have thought I needed to cut  back for whatever reason (finances, weight, just drinking more than I should) I have sometimes replaced it with a cup of herbal tea.  So I don't think a person who is cranky without his nightly ritual is necessarily an addict.  

[Arcadia]

My grandparents generation (born in the 1910s) believes in a night cap. For them, it was usually brandy or beer rather than wine. It makes them sleep better (maybe psychologically or biologically). A good night sleep helps them be in a better mood the next day.

[PeterPan]

He could run genetics to try to sort the anti-depressants and vitamin D out. 23andme testing and you can run the raw data through knowyourgenetics.com or promothease . It will show the vitamin D defect, and he may need to take his D up higher or add k2 for that. For optimizing the meds, Genesight testing. It may be covered by insurance and is capped at $330. They have a provider locator.

Edited April 22, 2019 by PeterPan

[AbcdeDooDah]

As a child of two alcoholic fathers, I would call that alcoholic. He backs off because he knows it's a problem. In time, more drinks will be needed to maintain that level of good feelings.

Edited April 22, 2019 by AbcdeDooDah

[hornblower]

I'd say this person probably has an alcohol use disorder or is on their way to developing one.

There are many alcoholics who can stop for long periods of time and who are not walking around drunk.  I think we need to really understand that these are not reliable flags because many alcoholics can meet that threshold.

Alcohol tolerance goes up with use so with time, alcoholics can appear stone sober (they work, drive, socialize) with huge amounts of alcohol on board.  Many can also stop for periods of time. 

I'd want to do the following: count accurately (be sure you know exactly how big the drink is, how big the wine glass, how many fingers in that glass really) ... and then figure out if most weeks are 15 or over, and/or if there are days of 5 or over (those numbers are for men; for women the problem is 8/week & 4/day)  and/or if the person ever has an eye-opener (ie drink in the morning) then there is a problem right now. 

If the numbers are a bit lower, then I'd say the problem is just around the corner.   one stressor - job change, promotion, job loss, children's problem, move, death in the family etc.... just one of those can tip the person over into a really huge problem

Even without a stressor, unless this person actively chooses a different intervention, this will likely escalate until it becomes a problem affecting life & family. (& it probably already is a problem in terms of liver health). Also be aware that as you age, liver and kidneys slow down clearing rates so blood alcohol levels stay up longer which may have implications for driving. 

I'd say the person needs treatment. Not necessarily an anti depressant, but maybe try it again, maybe a different one with fewer side effects. Maybe therapy. Maybe meditation and exercise and reflection could help. Alcohol loosens inhibition and does change things. A skilled mental health professional could potentially help the person address why those aspects of personality are being suppressed without alcohol. Not denying that there are biochemical issues as well, but sometimes introspection and changing habits are also helpful - we can change our outlooks and our behaviour. 
 

Edited April 22, 2019 by hornblower

[ktgrok]

39 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Initial thoughts—

He might benefit a lot from some more sun exposure.  That improves D and also can be a mood enhancer.

Also, he might benefit from aerobic exercise, which tends to be a mood enhancer in addition to being a healthy choice.  Jogging or hiking outside with some sunshine involved might be just what the doctor ordered.  Can he join a local club that sponsors get togethers to do that?  It’s a good substitute for the social aspects of drinking as well.

He might have some inexperience with enjoying the company of others without having a drink with them.  That’s usually partly locational and partly his routine.  It’s a harder thing to change, particularly the first one.  (For instance, when we go to the mountains, DH has some friends that he meets up with at the bar.  That is the only place they really socialize, and it’s the only place to socialize in the whole area, so drinking alcohol and having friendships are pretty much inseparable.).  So for that the question would be, can he go to that location but have a festive drink that does not contain alcohol, and still have as nice a time socially?  

I don’t think that alcohol is mostly a depressant in the sense that you mention.  I think in small amounts it tends to make people joyful and expansive, and then in larger amounts it makes them sleepy (the depressant aspect), and then in still larger amounts it can have serious effects.  The self-medication thing has to do more with it being an escape, albeit a temporary one.

He works long hours, so not much time to get any sun exposure during the week. Maybe on the weekend, he did this weekend quite a bit, but he hates the sun in general, wears sunglasses even when it is cloudy, etc. Very light sensitive in general. 

Most of his drinking is not in a social situation like you are describing, but at home in the evenings, either after work or after the kids are in bed.

 

37 minutes ago, WendyAndMilo said:

 

I would however pay attention to the circumstances surrounding the drinking.  When he drinks, how long does he take to wind down? Does he do anything else during that time?

When he doesn’t drink, does he still get time to wind down?  For how long?  What does he do to replace the drinking?

He is generally checking email, watching a tv show, working on his master's degree, etc. After going cold turkey he spent a lot of time laying down in his room, resting or sleeping, checking social media, more withdrawn and tired. 

33 minutes ago, Serenade said:

I think the reason that the "alcohol effect" carries over to the next day when not drinking is because if someone is relaxed in the evening and feeling good, that carries over for a while -- kind of like an object in motion tends to stay in motion, a person in a good mood tends to stay in a good mood. 🙂

I think it's good that this person is aware of his drinking and is concerned about over-consuming.  I'm hoping that will keep consumption in check.  However, I see no harm in modest drinking (1 - 2 drinks a day), if it doesn't escalate beyond that.

I do think that is a lot fit, that without the nightly stress reduction it builds up. And the habit of being in a better mood does seem to stick. 

I do think he was drinking more on some nights than he was comfortable with, not every night, but maybe once a week. Just while watching favorite TV shows, etc, not out partying or anything. 

31 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Is there an underlying problem of anxiety? 

Yes. He was using CBD oil for the anxiety with good effect but decided to stop that too. Regular doctor declined to give him a script for anxiety and told him he needs to see a psychiatrist first, which with our insurance is expensive and takes months to get in, and he has not made the effort to do that and likely won't without a lot of pushing.

26 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

He could run genetics to try to sort it out. 23andme testing and you can run the raw data through knowyourgenetics.com or promothease . It will show the vitamin D defect, and he may need to take his D up higher or add k2 for that. For optimizing the meds, Genesight testing. It may be covered by insurance and is capped at $330. They have a provider locator.

He won't do genetic testing due to privacy concerns...his field is information security and it makes me very cautious about anything related to privacy. (myself and the kids have done it, but he won't)

8 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

As a child of two alcoholic fathers, I would call that alcoholic. He backs off because he knows it's a problem. In time, more drinks will be needed to maintain that level of good feelings.

I believe that is his concern. 

2 minutes ago, hornblower said:

I'd say this person probably has an alcohol use disorder or is on their way to developing one.

There are many alcoholics who can stop for long periods of time and who are not walking around drunk.  I think we need to really understand that these are not reliable flags because many alcoholics can meet that threshold.

Alcohol tolerance goes up with use so with time, alcoholics can appear stone sober (they work, drive, socialize) with huge amounts of alcohol on board.  Many can also stop for periods of time. 

I'd want to do the following: count accurately (be sure you know exactly how big the drink is, how big the wine glass, how many fingers in that glass really) ... and then figure out if most weeks are 15 or over, and/or if there are days of 5 or over, and/or if the person ever has an eye-opener (ie drink in the morning) then there is a problem right now. 

If the numbers are a bit lower, then I'd say the problem is just around the corner.   one stressor - job change, promotion, job loss, children's problem, move, death in the family etc.... just one of those can tip the person over into a really huge problem

Even without a stressor, unless this person actively chooses a different intervention, this will likely escalate until it becomes a problem affecting life & family. (& it probably already is a problem in terms of liver health). Also be aware that as you age, liver and kidneys slow down clearing rates so blood alcohol levels stay up longer which may have implications for driving. 

I'd say the person needs treatment. Not necessarily an anti depressant, but maybe try it again, maybe a different one with fewer side effects. Maybe therapy. Maybe meditation and exercise and reflection could help. Alcohol loosens inhibition and does change things. A skilled mental health professional could potentially help the person address why those aspects of personality are being suppressed without alcohol. Not denying that there are biochemical issues as well, but sometimes introspection and changing habits are also helpful - we can change our outlooks and our behaviour. 
 

Numbers are lower I think, at least most of the time, with some weeks higher due to the rare occasion of having several more drinks. That had happened lately which I think is partly why he stopped. No days of 5 or over that I can think of, but I honestly wouldn't know for sure. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I would be supportive in seeing the psych...and hoping the oil helped in the meantime. He has a lot going on—2 jobs and seeking another degree + family life.

How does he feel about a job switch? We took a 30% pay cut this last year in a move to a lower stress job for dh.

 

[Farrar]

If it really is limited to two drinks a night, I don't know that I would have an issue with that. I've known a lot of people who drank like that most evenings. Either a couple of glasses of wine in the evening pretty much every night. Or a couple of beers nearly every night. Or, a mixed drink once or maybe twice a night most evenings. I don't think that's a problem at that level if it's not causing other issues.

I have also known people who went from that to more where it becomes a problem and ends up making them more belligerent when it used to make them more chill and happy. And one of the things about that is that they lie to themselves about how much it is - it's not one or two drinks. But I certainly haven't observed that happen to everyone who drinks regularly but overall pretty lightly like that.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Farrar

[gardenmom5]

someone who can't function without at least one drink is on their way to becoming an alcoholic, if not already at the functional alcoholic stage. it's  not about getting drunk.

[gardenmom5]

vitamin d is a good idea.  if it's too low, it has been associated with moodiness, etc.   if he's never had it tested - know that the *baseline* is now considered to be 50 (used to be 30).  My NDs, have all preferred around 70 - 80.  (when the usrda of 400IU's came out, it was thought d3 was only about bones and teeth - which is a blood level of around 10 - 15)

2dd told me when they were learning about vitamin d - it is more hormone than vitamin, based on how it is made, and how it works in the body.

a PP mentioned vitamin k2 - it helps with absorption.  oil based forms are most easily absorbed.

maybe he would be willing to do a martial art like akido (or a yoga program taught by a guy - there's a set of dvds out there by a former bodybuilder who now does yoga. he's more ripped than when he was doing weights.).  it is actually very calming.

[PeterPan]

27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I believe that is his concern. 

Then maybe move on to asking who he sees for help. He could go see an addiction counselor, rather than waiting for an $$$ pdoc. 

[gardenmom5]

has he tried a very good b-complex along with 5htp?   it has helped my tendency towards depression immensely - with NO side effects.

note: you can generally take more 5htp than the label says.  I take 400mg (200mg, 2x per day).  (my dr told me I was safe to 600mg per day.)  at lower doses  I noticed nothing.

relora (magnolia bark) has also been really nice to take the edge off.  actually, there are several supplements that can take the edge off. (l-theanine, gaba)  I got dh to take gaba.  he wouldn't try it, and lied about taking it.  dear - the seal hasn't even been broken...  now, he takes it willingly.

I also use relora and l-theanine as part of my adrenal support.  (stressed adrenals raises cortisol levels.  regular alcohol use will stress adrenals.)

[PeterPan]

36 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

He won't do genetic testing due to privacy concerns...his field is information security and it makes me very cautious about anything related to privacy. (myself and the kids have done it, but he won't)

Interesting. Well can you get his parents to do testing? It would at least give you information on anything that might have contributed and give you some sense of odds.

In general though, unhappy as it is to say, it seems like he has to address the dependency question before he's ready to sort out the medication question. I don't know how he can tell what remains till he does that. I have multiple relatives who've dealt with addictions, including an uncle who died from his. No one outside his immediate family realized how serious it was until the very end. Personally, I'd be in the hit it all camp here and wanting him to at least have that talk with a counselor specializing in substance abuse and addictions. And I'd schedule the pdoc to get those meds fine-tuned. It's not something to mess with. Maybe go with a doc who does Genesight even if today he's not ready to do that. 

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. You could try a local support group for families as well. I don't think there's some litmus test for must be diagnosed before you can walk in the door on these. They're free and a pretty normal thing for spouses to do.

[EKS]

My question is, why is it important to know whether a person (any person, not just the person described by the OP) is an alcoholic?

The answer generally seems to go in two directions.  The first is that people who label another as an alcoholic are interested in pointing out what they deem to be a character deficit.  

The second seems to be the idea that if somehow you know that a person is an "alcoholic" that helps you know whether the person's alcohol use is a "problem."

I'd suggest that there is a third way--that is to think about the answers to the following questions.  Is the alcohol use a significant threat to the person's health?  Is the alcohol use disrupting the person's ability to function fully in life (so, relationships, work, hobbies, etc)?  If the answer is yes to either question, and the person wants to stop drinking and can't, it might be time to consider measures that have been shown to be effective for "alcoholics."  In other words, the label points to ways to get help.  

That said, as far as mood goes--in addition to the fact that alcohol affects the brain in (sometimes contradictory) ways with regard to mood--the anticipation of being able to unwind with a drink or two in the evening might simply make a person feel happier during the day.

Edited April 22, 2019 by EKS

[PeterPan]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

has he tried a very good b-complex along with 5htp?   it has helped my tendency towards depression immensely - with NO side effects.

note: you can generally take more 5htp than the label says.  I take 400mg (200mg, 2x per day).  (my dr told me I was safe to 600mg per day.)  at lower doses  I noticed nothing.

Total, total rabbit trail, but I *think* it was the guy behind AA who was instrumental in exploring use of niacin. Niacin of course slurps up methyls, which is also what your vitamin D, 5HTP, etc. are doing. I think the story was that he used niacin as part of his journey to getting off alcohol. But again we're back to that genetics and wanting to know why someone needs this. If he won't do that, then he can research it and just see what he thinks. But yeah, those kind of methylation defects would explain why someone would have to crank those supplements so high. Even his D is likely too low at whatever dose he's taking. I take 15k IU a day in the winter and go down to 10k IU a day in the summer. My ds takes a stiff dose. My ds is now taking 250 mg 5HTP at night and 200 mg in the morning. With those doses of the 5HTP he's pretty jolly and nice and easy-going. Without them, you can't even work with him.

For op, this is the type of 5HTP product we're talking about.                                             Natrol 5-htp Time Release Tablets, 200mg, 60 Count                                       And total, total aside (I'm full of them today), they put my uncle, the alcoholic, on depakote for seizures. Then they put his dd on depakote and called it bipolar. And they put my uncle's mother (my grandmother) on depakote for a different kind of blackout. So I don't think there's such a lot of water between all these labels. I think they don't really get the underlying chemistry and why all these people with different labels are so similar. I have no clue what would have helped him and I have no doubt he was self-medicating. The question is what, and it's too late to find out.

[gardenmom5]

mthf is something that is generally considered innocuous, and can be tested independently.  (away from all other dna testing.)  about 50% of the population has at least one mthf defect.  (I have two. some people can actually have three because there are multiple forms of the mutation.)

it can affect depression, anxiety, and -- addictions.    (my mother's family - wow, boy do I see the traits across multiple generations.)

My ND said she had one patient who routinely was having 4 drinks+ a day, with no outward sign he was drinking.  she started him on mthf (available otc.  thorne is the best otc form.), and he couldn't tolerate more than one drink.  because the mthf was affecting his body's ability to metabolize alcohol.

and if he's interested in trying it - he doesn't even have to be tested.  he can just take the mthf.  it's just a specific form of folate, if he doesn't need it, his body will just get rid of it.

 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, EKS said:

The answer generally seems to go in two directions.  The first is that people who label another as an alcoholic are interested in pointing out what they deem to be a character deficit.  

I think a lot of people are social drinkers and pretty flexible, not really judgmental on the whole defect thing. It's more like they don't appreciate abuse, life-threatening driving habits, the way it affects kids, minor details like that.

Closet alcoholics, people who are holding jobs and functioning to the outside world but struggling in private.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

My ND said she had one patient who routinely was having 4 drinks+ a day, with no outward sign he was drinking.  she started him on mthf (available otc.  thorne is the best otc form.), and he couldn't tolerate more than one drink.  because the mthf was affecting his body's ability to metabolize alcohol.

Ok, that's utterly fascinating!! We know so much now about genetic defects and how people are metabolizing. 

So in theory would a person become addicted because the amounts are high but not feel inebriated because of how he's metabolizing? 

I'm thinking about this some more, and there must be multiple categories here. If that AA dude was using niacin, that would DO be the wrong path for most people with MTHFR defects. My dd is straight MTHFR, no COMT defects, and niacin is super rough on her. She does great on the methylfolate, etc. and has to raise her methyls actively with other supplements to take something like 5HTP that uses methyls. Me, I'm a mix of MTHFR and other defects. I guzzle niacin and methyl slurpers and feel better unless I take them too high.

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Total, total rabbit trail, but I *think* it was the guy behind AA who was instrumental in exploring use of niacin. Niacin of course slurps up methyls, which is also what your vitamin D, 5HTP, etc. are doing. I think the story was that he used niacin as part of his journey to getting off alcohol. But again we're back to that genetics and wanting to know why someone needs this. If he won't do that, then he can research it and just see what he thinks. But yeah, those kind of methylation defects would explain why someone would have to crank those supplements so high. Even his D is likely too low at whatever dose he's taking. I take 15k IU a day in the winter and go down to 10k IU a day in the summer. My ds takes a stiff dose. My ds is now taking 250 mg 5HTP at night and 200 mg in the morning. With those doses of the 5HTP he's pretty jolly and nice and easy-going. Without them, you can't even work with him.

For op, this is the type of 5HTP product we're talking about.                                             Natrol 5-htp Time Release Tablets, 200mg, 60 Count                                       And total, total aside (I'm full of them today), they put my uncle, the alcoholic, on depakote for seizures. Then they put his dd on depakote and called it bipolar. And they put my uncle's mother (my grandmother) on depakote for a different kind of blackout. So I don't think there's such a lot of water between all these labels. I think they don't really get the underlying chemistry and why all these people with different labels are so similar. I have no clue what would have helped him and I have no doubt he was self-medicating. The question is what, and it's too late to find out.

vitamin d is about a heck of a lot more than mood.  it's about getting the blood levels to healthy levels.  most people are deficient.  it affects every system in your body.   one oncologist said she had NEVER had a patient with a d3 level below 30.  my optometrist couldn't get her d3 levels up, no matter what she did - until she went on mthf, and they went up on their own.

I use Now 5htp.

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

vitamin d is a good idea.  if it's too low, it has been associated with moodiness, etc.   if he's never had it tested - know that the *baseline* is now considered to be 50 (used to be 30).  My NDs, have all preferred around 70 - 80.  (when the usrda of 400IU's came out, it was thought d3 was only about bones and teeth - which is a blood level of around 10 - 15)

 

maybe he would be willing to do a martial art like akido (or a yoga program taught by a guy - there's a set of dvds out there by a former bodybuilder who now does yoga. he's more ripped than when he was doing weights.).  it is actually very calming.

He did have it tested, and the first time is was in the tank, I think 13 or something..maybe 17. Definitely below 20. He went on heavy supplementation and is now on a lower level after a recheck, but probably needs to follow up or increase dosage. I'll find out how much he is taking now. 

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

has he tried a very good b-complex along with 5htp?   it has helped my tendency towards depression immensely - with NO side effects.

note: you can generally take more 5htp than the label says.  I take 400mg (200mg, 2x per day).  (my dr told me I was safe to 600mg per day.)  at lower doses  I noticed nothing.

relora (magnolia bark) has also been really nice to take the edge off.  actually, there are several supplements that can take the edge off. (l-theanine, gaba)  I got dh to take gaba.  he wouldn't try it, and lied about taking it.  dear - the seal hasn't even been broken...  now, he takes it willingly.

I also use relora and l-theanine as part of my adrenal support.  (stressed adrenals raises cortisol levels.  regular alcohol use will stress adrenals.)

He takes a decent multi with methylated B vitamins, but I don't know the levels. I will suggest 5htp to him, and l-theanine. 

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Interesting. Well can you get his parents to do testing?

His parents have both passed away. 

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

My question is, why is it important to know whether a person (any person, not just the person described by the OP) is an alcoholic?

 

Yeah, that really isn't my question. I am trying to figure out what, if anything would be a better substitute, if that makes sense. Or if maybe just the sudden stopping is what has caused the mood issues, a withdrawal effect? 

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

if he doesn't need it, his body will just get rid of it.

Unless he has COMT defects. In that case, he might develop headaches, become irritable, etc. etc. Niacin would undo that and be the test.

[EKS]

6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I think a lot of people are social drinkers and pretty flexible, not really judgmental on the whole defect thing. It's more like they don't appreciate abuse, life-threatening driving habits, the way it affects kids, minor details like that.

Closet alcoholics, people who are holding jobs and functioning to the outside world but struggling in private.

I guess I don't understand what you're saying here. 

My point was about people who are trying to figure out whether another person is an alcoholic.  I get that there are people who don't care about other people's alcohol habits.  

Edited April 22, 2019 by EKS

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

He did have it tested, and the first time is was in the tank, I think 13 or something..maybe 17. Definitely below 20. He went on heavy supplementation and is now on a lower level after a recheck, but probably needs to follow up or increase dosage. I'll find out how much he is taking now. 

I keep mine in the TOP of the normal range. Makes a HUGE difference.

[ktgrok]

oh, and something like martial arts would be enjoyed, but cost money and take time, neither of which he is flexible with 🙂

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, that's utterly fascinating!! We know so much now about genetic defects and how people are metabolizing. 

So in theory would a person become addicted because the amounts are high but not feel inebriated because of how he's metabolizing? 

I'm thinking about this some more, and there must be multiple categories here. If that AA dude was using niacin, that would DO be the wrong path for most people with MTHFR defects. My dd is straight MTHFR, no COMT defects, and niacin is super rough on her. She does great on the methylfolate, etc. and has to raise her methyls actively with other supplements to take something like 5HTP that uses methyls. Me, I'm a mix of MTHFR and other defects. I guzzle niacin and methyl slurpers and feel better unless I take them too high.

no idea.  I see so many of the typical mthf manifestations in my mother's family, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of homozygous there.  I'm hoping by taking it - I won't need the knee replacement that has been extremely common among the women.  my sister had her's done three years ago.  more so - I'm hoping I won't develop the TIAs that were even more common.

actually - we are learning genetics are far more complex, and getting a clue about how little we do know.  dd mentioned there was some flirting with doing dna testing for what drugs are appropriate for which person.  dudeling's ND wanted to do one of those, dh wanted more info (we weren't able to get his questions answered) before forking out that kind of money.

both of my maternal ggf were alcoholics.  my grandfather's brothers (and some nephews) were too. but they lived on rural farms, and not much else to do.  my grandfather was allowed one bottle of apricot brandy as a Christmas present - and that was his booze for the year.  my grandmother was determined he wouldn't drink. he could make that bottle last about five months.

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

the sudden stopping is what has caused the mood issues, a withdrawal effect? 

Unfortunately, that would be hard to tell. I think talking with a substance abuse counselor would be wise. Getting his vitamin D up much higher in the normal range would be wise. It's a valid question on the methylation defect issues. Has his doc ever run B12 or folate or homocysteine on him? I found homocysteine levels in my dh's bloodwork, so sometimes it's in panels done on men. You might check. If his homocysteine levels are high, especially if his good cholesterol is low, that can indicate B12 and methylation defect issues. 

Has he ever had issues with aggression? Did he have aggression or depression as a teen? I think go back before any alcohol use if you want to see what is genetic. (plus family plus plus obviously)

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

oh, and something like martial arts would be enjoyed, but cost money and take time, neither of which he is flexible with 🙂

One person I know with dependencies did TONS of martial arts when they were coming off, basically lived in the dojo/studio, and yes it was good. Support groups can be good. But right now he needs to see a counselor and work on his body. 

                                            Now Vitamin K-2 100 mcg,250 Veg Capsules                                     

                                            Now Supplements, Vitamin D-3 10,000 IU, 120 Softgels                                     

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

He takes a decent multi with methylated B vitamins, but I don't know the levels. I will suggest 5htp to him, and l-theanine. 

That's interesting. How does he feel with the methylated Bs? See people will say they're fine for anyone but for certain defects they're NOT fine. When he started, did they make him feel better? L-theanine is a methyl donor too.

 

[gardenmom5]

11 minutes ago, EKS said:

I guess I don't understand what you're saying here. 

My point was about people who are trying to figure out whether another person is an alcoholic.  I get that there are people who don't care about other people's alcohol habits.  

I don't think I understood what you were saying in your earlier post, but yeah - some people are gossips and are looking for fodder, some are just mean - and are looking for a weapon.  some, are just trying to help. (and that takes information.)

[PeterPan]

This is a 4 question test  https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/cage-alcohol-assessment-quiz/  There are longer ones too but this was thought-provoking.

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

oh, and something like martial arts would be enjoyed, but cost money and take time, neither of which he is flexible with 🙂

I didn't have money for classes - and time was a challenge too.

I started yoga from dvd's at home.  the only money was the cost of the dvd, a mat and some blocks.  I could work around my schedule (and not have to find a babysitter.)

here's some yoga dvds with male instructors (some are quite ripped.)

https://hubpages.com/health/best-yoga-dvds-for-men-2012-2013

there's a site that gives a graphic of the muscles worked by each pose - which I can't find.  I thought it was yogajournal - but it's not (though it is a very good site.)

[Liz CA]

The term "depressant" refers to a depression of functions of the Central Nervous System. It means respiration is slowed and the neurotransmitters that are often responsible for signaling anxiety triggers are delayed.

He may be developing or have already developed what we call a SUD (Substance Use Disorder).

Would he be open to learning other coping strategies and possible CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) work? It would take a little longer to take effect compared to alcohol but seems a safer alternative in the long run.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Liz CA

[Mergath]

I don't think it's a problem. When I go through an especially hard time with my OCD, I use the occasional drink to self-medicate. It takes the edge off the anxiety, wears off faster, doesn't enter breastmilk in quantities higher than what's found in orange juice, doesn't have any side effects that last longer than an hour or two, and is cheaper than meds.

The idea that it is somehow morally superior to pop a benzo instead of having a beer when my anxiety becomes unbearable is ridiculous and is a cultural thing. Also, I'm married to an alcoholic who is recovered to the point that I can bring home beer or wine and he doesn't have any desire to touch it, and I can tell you right now that having a beer or a glass of wine in the evening to unwind does NOT make one an alcoholic. 

[TechWife]

I recently attended a Mental Health First Aid Class that covered substance use disorders.  I'm by no means an expert on alcoholism and I am not a health care professional.  I did grow up with a father that was an alcoholic and my oldest brother died from complications of alcoholism, so I have some practical experience.

You might find the following information from the class helpful:

Substance use disorders include: "abuse of alcohol or other drugs which leads to work, school, home, health, or legal problems; dependence on alcohol or other drugs"

Symptoms of substance dependence: "tolerance for the substance (person needs increased amounts over time or gets less effect with repeated uses; problems with withdrawal (the person experiences withdrawal symptoms or uses substance to relieve withdrawal symptoms); use of larger amounts over longer periods than intended; problems in cutting down or controlling use; a lot of time spent getting the substance, using it, or recovering from it's effects; the person gives up or reduces important social, occupational, or recreational activities because of substance us; the person continues using the substance despite knowing that use has negative consequences."

alcohol & anxiety:  "Substance use disorders often co-occur with mood, anxiety and psychotic disorders. People wiht a mood or anxiety disorder are two times mroe liely to have a substance use disorder."   

"Alcohol makes people less alert and impairs concentration and coordination. Some people use alcohol to reduce anxiety, and in the short term, it can reduce symptoms. In small quantities, alcohol causes people to relax and lower their inhibitions. They can feel more confident and often act more extroverted. However, alcohol use can produce a range of short-term and long-term problems."

How Much is Too Much?

"The US Government has defined the risk of alcohol consumption as follows:

low risk drinking is defined as drinking that has a low risk of damaging health:

men - no more than four drinks a day and no more than fourteen drinks per week

women - no more than three drinks per day and no more than seven drinks per week

people over 65 (men and women) more than three drinks per day

At risk or problem drinking begins when the preceding daily or weekly drink limits are exceeded."

US Standard Drink Equivalents - each of these fits the definition of "one drink" in the limits above:

12 oz beer (approx. 3% alcohol content)

8-9 oz malt liquor (approx. 7% alcohol content)

5 oz table wine (approx 12% alcohol content)

1.5 ox. spirits, such as gin, vodka, whiskey (approx 40% alcohol content)

RAPS4 Questionnaire - A brief screening device.  "A 'yes' answer to at least one of the four questions suggests that a person's drinking is harmful to their health and well-being and may adversely affect their work and those around them. In this case, the person should get a full evaluation from a qualified professional

Question 1 - During the past year, have you had a feeling of guilt or remorse after drinking?

Question 2 - During the past year, has a friend or family member ever told you about things you said or did while  you were drinking that you don't remember?

Question 3 - During the past year, have you failed to do what was normally expected from you because of drinking?

Question 4 - Do you sometimes take a drink in the morning when you first get up?"

My source for this information is: 

Mental Health First Aid USA, First Edition (Revised) Adult (2015, 2017); publisher: National Council for Behavioral Health; ISBN: 978-692-60748-0

The endnotes for the book contain citations for the information above.  They might provide further helpful information, although I have not gone back to them, so I am not sure  how helpful they will be to you:

American Psychiatric Association (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed.). Arlington, BA: American Psychiatric Publishing, 481-588.

Grant, B.F., Stinson, F.S., Dawson, D.A., Chou, P., Duford, M.C., Compton, W., Pickering, R.P., and Kaplan, K (2006). Prevalence and co-occurrence of substance use disorders and independent mood and anxiety disorders: results from the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. Alcohol Research & Health. 29(2), 107-120.

National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Rethinking Drinking: Alcohol and Your Health. Excerpted from NIH publication No. 15-3770 http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicatinos/Rethinking_Drinking.pdf accessed January 4, 2016.

National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. What's a Standard Drink? Excerpted from NIH publication No. 07-3769. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/tips/tips.pdf accessed January 4, 2016.

Cherpitel, C.J. (2002). Screening for alcohol problems in the US general population: comparison of the CAGE, RAPS4, and RAPS4-QF by gender, ethnicity and service utilization. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, 26, 1686-1691.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Liz CA]

14 hours ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Quote deleted

 

There is still a difference between "dependency" and "abuse." You can google Substance Use Disorder (SUD) definition.

Abuse is generally defined as having difficulty carrying on with maintaining a job, relationships and most time is devoted to procuring the substance.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Liz CA

[BeachGal]

The book Buzzed (Amazon link) does a good job explaining what alcohol is and what it does. A lot of sites online also have good info about what exactly it does. They are worth checking out because they are often discovering new things.

I recently stopped drinking alcohol altogether myself. I'm a social drinker and only drink at night and when I go out. I was drinking about 2-3 margaritas per week, but alcohol -- even light drinking, IMO -- just has way too many drawbacks for my liking. Now I order non-alcohol drinks when I go out, usally tea, coconut water, etc. I don't feel as festive but my health is ultimately better, IMO, as a result.

Edited April 22, 2019 by BeachGal

[Selkie]

OP, you are smart to be looking for a substitute for the alcohol. I had an alcoholic parent who was like you are describing, for a while...then, over time, it became a much bigger and uglier problem. This had such a tremendously negative effect on my siblings and me, and it is still affecting us all these years later. One of my siblings followed Mom's lead and started drinking to relieve stress, and ended up dying of alcoholism at a young age. It's great that both you and this person are willing to tackle the issue.

[Amy in NH]

I'd say he has a dopamine production deficiency.

Small amounts of alcohol will increase dopamine, but larger amounts will decrease it (hence, the depressive effect).

I've tried GABA w/arginine to improve blood/brain barrier absorption - worked great on my mood problem, but caused severe dyspnea, which I found out later is due to GABA receptors in the epithelial lining of the respiratory system.

I've tried theanine, lysine, tyrosine, tryptophan, l-dopa, & d-l phenylalanine - all did nothing.

I'm now trying ashwaganda, glutamine, and a high quality B-complex with mthf.  I also take a regular multivitamin, and additional potassium citrate.  Results are meh.

I refuse to go on anti-depressants.  I took them about 8 years ago for 2 years, with detrimental life-altering effects lasting an additional 5 years after going off of them.
 

[ktgrok]

35 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Has he ever had issues with aggression? Did he have aggression or depression as a teen? I think go back before any alcohol use if you want to see what is genetic. (plus family plus plus obviously)

No, not aggressive AT ALL. Ever. In fact, the more upset/angry he gets, the quieter and more polite he gets. 

And hes had anxiety issues long term. 

26 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This is a 4 question test  https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/cage-alcohol-assessment-quiz/  There are longer ones too but this was thought-provoking.

He would score a 2, I think, answering that he sometimes thinks he should quit and sometimes feels guilty (although the guilt is something he often feels over all sorts of random things....he doesn't like to spend money on himself, period)

20 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I didn't have money for classes - and time was a challenge too.

I started yoga from dvd's at home.  the only money was the cost of the dvd, a mat and some blocks.  I could work around my schedule (and not have to find a babysitter.)

here's some yoga dvds with male instructors (some are quite ripped.)

https://hubpages.com/health/best-yoga-dvds-for-men-2012-2013

there's a site that gives a graphic of the muscles worked by each pose - which I can't find.  I thought it was yogajournal - but it's not (though it is a very good site.)

He did do yoga for a while, and our neighbor is an instructor who would do some with him, need to encourage that again. It really really helped his back pain. 

7 minutes ago, TechWife said:

How Much is Too Much?

"The US Government has defined the risk of alcohol consumption as follows:

low risk drinking is defined as drinking that has a low risk of damaging health:

men - no more than four drinks a day and no more than fourteen drinks per week

women - no more than three drinks per day and no more than seven drinks per week

people over 65 (men and women) more than three drinks per day

At risk or problem drinking begins when the preceding daily or weekly drink limits are exceeded."

US Standard Drink Equivalents - each of these fits the definition of "one drink" in the limits above:

12 oz beer (approx. 3% alcohol content)

8-9 oz malt liquor (approx. 7% alcohol content)

5 oz table wine (approx 12% alcohol content)

1.5 ox. spirits, such as gin, vodka, whiskey (approx 40% alcohol content)

RAPS4 Questionnaire - A brief screening device.  "A 'yes' answer to at least one of the four questions suggests that a person's drinking is harmful to their health and well-being and may adversely affect their work and those around them. In this case, the person should get a full evaluation from a qualified professional

Question 1 - During the past year, have you had a feeling of guilt or remorse after drinking?

Question 2 - During the past year, has a friend or family member ever told you about things you said or did while  you were drinking that you don't remember?

Question 3 - During the past year, have you failed to do what was normally expected from you because of drinking?

Question 4 - Do you sometimes take a drink in the morning when you first get up?"

My source for this information is: 

Mental Health First Aid USA, First Edition (Revised) Adult (2015, 2017); publisher: National Council for Behavioral Health; ISBN: 978-692-60748-0

 

That is really helpful! It gives some context, which I think is needed. Knowing how much is normal/low risk is helpful. 

As for the questions, other than maybe feeling guilt about the money spent, I don't think he'd answer yes to any of those questions. And the guilt is just because he doesn't like spending money on himself. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Amy in NH said:

I'd say he has a dopamine production deficiency.

Small amounts of alcohol will increase dopamine, but larger amounts will decrease it (hence, the depressive effect).

I've tried GABA w/arginine to improve blood/brain barrier absorption - worked great on my mood problem, but caused severe dyspnea, which I found out later is due to GABA receptors in the epithelial lining of the respiratory system.

I've tried theanine, lysine, tyrosine, tryptophan, l-dopa, & d-l phenylalanine - all did nothing.

I'm now trying ashwaganda, glutamine, and a high quality B-complex with mthf.  I also take a regular multivitamin, and additional potassium citrate.  Results are meh.

I refuse to go on anti-depressants.  I took them about 8 years ago for 2 years, with detrimental life-altering effects lasting an additional 5 years after going off of them.
 

That makes sense. And would also explain why CBD helps. 

[ktgrok]

I should explain that part of the reason he worries about the money isn't the massive amounts of booze, but because he likes good stuff. Low level would be Jameson's. Higher level would be single malt scotch. 

[Arcadia]

 

52 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

oh, and something like martial arts would be enjoyed, but cost money and take time, neither of which he is flexible with 🙂

 

My self employed cousins have found a punching bag and/or stationary exercise bike at home useful since they have irregular schedules and can’t commit to any kind of regular classes. Their kids get to use the equipment too.

42 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Please don’t quote...

 

Stress and midlife crisis might be contributing. My husband does eat more “junk food” (potato chips, chocolate, ice cream) when stressed. FIL used to drink large amounts of beer (stopped due to lack of cash) so my husband is wary of alcohol consumption.

[MercyA]

It's fine. I believe God gave us all things to enjoy (1 Timothy 6:17), as long as they don't become a detriment to our health or lead to sin. 

"He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for people to cultivate—bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts." Psalm 104:14-15

"But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my new wine, which cheers God and men, and go to wave over the trees?’ Judges 9:13

This is not something to worry about, in my opinion, for the many reasons already mentioned by previous posters.

Edited April 22, 2019 by MercyA

[moonflower]

I'd say he has an alcohol dependency; many people have a caffeine dependency or a nicotine dependency or a zillion other things.  I guess the difference between an alcohol dependency and a caffeine dependency is just that if you end up needing more and more alcohol (not that you necessarily will), it can be a lot more detrimental to health and relationships and life plans than needing more and more caffeine. 

But yes, it's a dependency.

[AbcdeDooDah]

8 minutes ago, MercyA said:

This is not something to worry about, in my opinion.

Even though he's not fine without alcohol? 

[MercyA]

2 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Even though he's not fine without alcohol? 

It sounds to me like he's fine without it, just better with it.