They love PS but it is making them obnoxious UPDATE THEY'RE NOT THAT OBNOXIOUS NOW

[moonflower]

I knew it would happen.  I know most of why it happens - they use all their good behavior energy during the day, interacting in a more stressful and energetic and structured environment with lots of people and social requirements, so when they get home there's not a lot of patience or good will left.

But boy, 2 weeks into public school and they are certainly obnoxious little scoobers.  They whine, they argue when asked to do something very simple, they're unkind to their younger siblings, they have melodrama over nothing, they have no interest whatsoever in doing any sort of housework.

They do like school, and I like their liking school and having friends.  But any suggestions, other than feed them more and wait them out, for how to ameliorate the breakdown of social skills and interpersonal tolerance when they get home from school?

(7th, 5th, and 1st)

Edited December 21, 2018 by moonflower
update

[Guest]

From the older two, I would brook no nonsense. 7th and 5th is well old enough to practice self control at least most of the time, even if they are tired and/or hungry. Even the 1st grader can definitily be given a “script” and a “let’s try that again, Pumpkin.” 

So - scenarios. Let’s say Scooby says, “WHYYYYYY do I  have to wash the dishes againnnnnnn...” I might say, “Washing the dishes is your job for the indefinite future so there is no point whining about it.” (Also, in re: specific dinner chores, I had a set-in-stone chore system, which really did cut down on those protests because it was a fact of life and whatever chore was on my perpetual calendar of chores in your color code, that was the chore you did.) 

I don’t know if that helps, but I saw you had no replies so I thought I would help. 

I am a very practical mom and, while I care about my kids’ emotions, I don’t tolerate a lot of nonsense from capable children. It is one of the reasons our former member here, Joanne’s advice usually resonated with me. She was gentle discipline but also strong and practical. 

[Bambam]

I agree with Quill. The 5th and 7th grader should know better. I would definitely non-emotionally stop it each and every time. If it continued, I'm mean enough to assign *extra* chores for bad attitudes. I would, however, meet them at the door with a snack. If they were still a problem after that, I might discuss with them whether it would help them if they had 30 minutes quiet time to decompress in their room alone. Not as a punishment, but I know I do much better if I have some alone time after I have spent all day around other people. 

The 1st grader gets more patience - and again Quill offers good advice with the script about doing it again.

If this continued indefinitely and never seemed to end, I'd re-evaluate PS as an option (assuming that it is just an option). When my kids were awful after returning from a sleepover (where little sleep actually ever seems to happen), they were warned the next time that they *had* better treat everyone nicely when they got back home. If they didn't, then we stopped sleepovers for a 6-9 month period and tried again. 

[Katy]

I've been known to send kids over 7 to bed 5 minutes earlier for each transgression, assuming they've been warned and keep it up. "If you're acting like a whiny toddler who needs a nap you must be overtired.  You're going to bed 5 minutes early. Keep it up and it will be 10."

[maize]

Could you have a snack ready when they get home and sit down and read aloud to everyone while they eat? Might give them a chance to relax, refuel, and reset.

[HS Mom in NC]

Former member Joanne and I were very close friends while she lived in AZ.  We spent 2-3 days together for years when our oldest kids were toddlers- mid elementary school aged.  I was at her youngest child's birth.  I saw all kinds of Joanne in action. She was always like that IRL.  Total no nonsense. I watched her give a whining-about-regular-chores-kid an extra chore, kid whined again, kid got another extra chore and Joanne said to him dispassionately, "Are you sure you want to keep whining?  I have a garage that needs cleaning out." That shut him up. She also said things like," I won't be held hostage by a/an (insert child's age here) year old." And then there was what was known as Jo's 2 Time Get Off Your Butt Rule: If you have to say it a second time, be physically off your butt and going over to the kid following through. Man, I've missed her since she moved to TX.

My brother, step-brothers, and I attended public school.  We had difficult family situations. We were still expected to do daily chores around the farm without whining about it. My mother was never one to worry about us being interested in housework.  We just had to do it and the yard work and farm chores whether we were interested or not.  One of my young children foolishly complained to her about having to do housework at my house.  (Oh, Honey! That's the wrong Grandmother for that complaint. ) Apparently she was too young to have put 2 and 2 together to figure out where my expectations came from.  My mother raised one eyebrow and said to her matter of factly, "Well you live there don't you? You walk on the floors? Eat off the dishes?  Pee in the toilet? Wear clothes? Sleep on the bed? Look out the windows?" She said yes.  "Then you have to help clean all that. Your arms aren't broken are they?" She said no. "Your brain works normally, right? You can walk and see can't you?" She said yes.  "Then you have no reason not to do chores."

What my daughter didn't know was that I remember my mother waking my brothers and I up one night as she was watching a documentary about thalidomide children born without arms.  The kids had to fold their own laundry, take it upstairs and put it away with their feet. They could do it with no problem.  She had us stay up and watch it then told us, "I don't ever want you to tell me about how you can't do something." Then she sent us back to bed. My middle daughter and her husband met on the archery team as teens.  Each year they competed in the Vegas Shoot which happened the days just before or just after in Indoor World Cup at the same location, so got to see that too.  One of the medalists in the Olympics, not the Special Olympics, has no arms.  He shoots his bow and arrow with his feet and he's one of the best in the world.  Yeah, don't whine to me about chores, kid.

[Ausmumof3]

Oh man... this thread is making me feel like I’m a pushover!

[Ottakee]

2 weeks is still in the midst of a big adjustment period.   I agree with meeting them at the door with a snack.  Often homeschoolers snack more often than school kids get to eat....and sometimes they kids have lunch at 11 but not home til 4 type thing.

I would also give mine a snack and some attention when they got home, then 1)2 hour or so to decompress, etc before expectations if chores, homework, etc.

I was pretty mean/strict/firm about chores.  Everyone had them and helped.  I had to laugh at the example above about the kids being able to use their brain well, see, etc....and therefore had to do chores.  See, in my house, often the kids had physical, cognitive or other special needs.....but guess what....they still had to do their chores (based on ability).  

[Lecka]

It’s a huge transition.  It’s only been two weeks. I bet they settle down in another two weeks or so.  

It is hard to manage their energy until they get used to it, they get really tired.  But they will adjust soon.  

It is easier when they go in already having friends and familiar with the school, this is with them in a new place and meeting new people, too.  It’s an adjustment.  

Edit:  I think ideas for responding are good, too.  But this isn’t some “new normal,” this is them two weeks in and still in the adjustment period.  It really should get better as they adjust.  

Edited November 9, 2018 by Lecka

[Guest]

Quote

ormer member Joanne and I were very close friends while she lived in AZ.  We spent 2-3 days together for years when our oldest kids were toddlers- mid elementary school aged.  I was at her youngest child's birth.  I saw all kinds of Joanne in action. She was always like that IRL.  Total no nonsense. I watched her give a whining-about-regular-chores-kid an extra chore, kid whined again, kid got another extra chore and Joanne said to him dispassionately, "Are you sure you want to keep whining?  I have a garage that needs cleaning out." That shut him up. She also said things like," I won't be held hostage by a/an (insert child's age here) year old." And then there was what was known as Jo's 2 Time Get Off Your Butt Rule: If you have to say it a second time, be physically off your butt and going over to the kid following through. Man, I've missed her since she moved to TX

Oh, you are so lucky! ? I wish I could have seen Joanne being Joanne IRL. Her GOYB rule saved my ability to be an effective mom. I did not grow up with good discipline modeling, but I also saw a lot of non-spanking, non-yelling moms who just WERE. NOT. EFFECTIVE. I didn’t want that and I didn’t want fearful, resentful kids, either. The GOYB thing saved me. In a way, it was so easy and obvious to just make the thing happen. Give instruction...if compliance is not forthcoming, it’s about to happen with my help anyhow. It worked well (eventually) even with my most knuckle-headed kid. ?

[Ellie]

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Man, I've missed her since she moved to TX.

I met her after I moved here. I was so sad when things went so badly for her. :-(

[moonflower]

Sorry to post and run, our internet just up and died.

 

You're right, it is just 2 weeks.  I think it's so easy to see what is happening now and think that is going to be the way forever, but they'll figure it out.

The chores are still getting done - I work from home and we have lots of littles, so there's really no way for them to not get done, or there would be no clean clothes and nothing to eat and no dishes to eat off of.  I think it will help for me to remember to not get caught up in their emotion about it, though.  It's just dishes, I'll sweep while you do them then let's have some banana bread and talk about how math class went today.

[Ausmumof3]

Also make sure you are leading by example!  I know that’s so obvious but I get so much more pushback when I’m sitting down with my phone or coffee and ask for table cleared than when I say “let’s all work together to clear up then we’ll do ... insert fun activity here...”

[Tanaqui]

It's only been two weeks. Things WILL settle down.

In the meantime, it helps a lot of kids to have a breather between school and homework/housework. They come home, they eat a snack, they goof off for half an hour, perhaps they sit on the couch and read for twenty minutes (reading time, imo, is sacrosanct), and then they do their chores and/or homework.

One specific piece of advice related to arguing. I don't know if this will work for your kids, but I cut down on a lot of that by refusing to engage in it.

Me: $NAME, could you please pick up the floor in here while I get the table?

Kid: That's not my mess! Why don't you make my sister do things?

Me: Listen, I wasn't asking you, I was telling you, but politely. You need to come in here and help me clean up. I don't care whose mess it is, you're the one helping. Your sister will help me do something else when she gets home.

Kid: But that's not fair!

Me: You can keep arguing, but you're just wasting time.

And that mostly works.

(Now, I'm fair. If the kid says, quite reasonably and not whining, that they'd like 5 or 10 minutes to wrap up whatever-it-is, and I can spare 5 or 10 minutes (which I usually can), then I'm happy to set a timer and let them watch their video or play their game or whatever. There is a difference between a reasonable counterproposal and whining or recalcitrance.)

Edit: On a related note, I got so much silly pushback in the form of "I didn't do that, that must have been my sister, why do you always blame me?" that I now have a "lecture all kids" rule. For some reason, nobody complains about being called into the living room for a group lecture on the subject of "Please do not leave your paintbrushes in the sink", but they really objected to being individually told "I put your bookbag in your room, next time put it there yourself" even when it's obvious who left their bookbag where. I do not understand my life sometimes.

[Guest]

Quote

On a related note, I got so much silly pushback in the form of "I didn't do that, that must have been my sister, why do you always blame me?" that I now have a "lecture all kids" rule. For some reason, nobody complains about being called into the living room for a group lecture on the subject of "Please do not leave your paintbrushes in the sink", but they really objected to being individually told "I put your bookbag in your room, next time put it there yourself" even when it's obvious who left their bookbag where. I do not understand my life sometimes.

•  

I like that. Sometimes I just tell “the room” that the thing needs to stop happening. (For pity’s sake, half the time DH is the culprit!) so I say, “Everyone, when you are the person doing the dishes, that means ALL the dishes. Pots are dishes, too!” There have been a lot of times everyone is pointing fingers at someone else and I say, “I do not care who is to blame. Just everyone do it the right way and there’s no more problem.” 

I really hate blame-shifting because I see it so much in grown-ups and it’s such an undeveloped way of managing a problem. One of my former bosses was a huge blame-shifter. I used to think, “Gee, could you ever just say, ‘Oh. My mistake. I will try not to repeat that; I can see how it caused problems.’” ?

[HomeAgain]

It's a big transition, but I'm reminded of the first rule of school teachers for the beginning of a term: start heavy with the rules so they understand from the beginning.

A constant whine or obnoxiousness in my house would get first a raised eyebrow and an "excuse me?"  This would be followed by a reminder to breathe and say it in a normal voice.  If that didn't work, we'd do a do-over: I'd send them out of the room and tell them to come back when they have themselves under control.  All of this is a firm reminder that that is not how we talk in this house, and it wouldn't start now.  On rare occasion I'd request to listen to 3 nice things before they continued complaining and walk away until they complied.

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

It's only been two weeks. Things WILL settle down.

In the meantime, it helps a lot of kids to have a breather between school and homework/housework. They come home, they eat a snack, they goof off for half an hour, perhaps they sit on the couch and read for twenty minutes (reading time, imo, is sacrosanct), and then they do their chores and/or homework.

One specific piece of advice related to arguing. I don't know if this will work for your kids, but I cut down on a lot of that by refusing to engage in it.

Me: $NAME, could you please pick up the floor in here while I get the table?

Kid: That's not my mess! Why don't you make my sister do things?

Me: Listen, I wasn't asking you, I was telling you, but politely. You need to come in here and help me clean up. I don't care whose mess it is, you're the one helping. Your sister will help me do something else when she gets home.

Kid: But that's not fair!

Me: You can keep arguing, but you're just wasting time.

And that mostly works.

(Now, I'm fair. If the kid says, quite reasonably and not whining, that they'd like 5 or 10 minutes to wrap up whatever-it-is, and I can spare 5 or 10 minutes (which I usually can), then I'm happy to set a timer and let them watch their video or play their game or whatever. There is a difference between a reasonable counterproposal and whining or recalcitrance.)

Edit: On a related note, I got so much silly pushback in the form of "I didn't do that, that must have been my sister, why do you always blame me?" that I now have a "lecture all kids" rule. For some reason, nobody complains about being called into the living room for a group lecture on the subject of "Please do not leave your paintbrushes in the sink", but they really objected to being individually told "I put your bookbag in your room, next time put it there yourself" even when it's obvious who left their bookbag where. I do not understand my life sometimes.

So true!!!

[MEmama]

I prioritize food, rest and movement/play. Everything else comes after those.

Your kids are no doubt exhausted. They are learning how to put in full days outside the home, in a totally new environment and with totally different expectations. Even public school veterans are tired after the school day; that's normal. 

Be gentle on them, mama. Feed them, make sure they get some fun exercise and let them rest. Anything else just isn't so important in the long run. 

FWIW we don't do chores, punishments or lectures. I'm the adult and have better capacities to pick up slack when it's required. DS's job is growing, schoolwork and sorting through all the stuff that comes with being a teenager. My priority is my relationship with him. I could care less about who does laundry or when. Let the tomatoes fly! Lol

Edited November 9, 2018 by MEmama

[PeterPan]

It's also a situation where you might, knowing more about the whole of them, consider it an indication that you might need to be pursuing more supports (504/IEP). My ds has an IEP and as part of our fight I saw lots of posts (FB, etc.) where people were talking about kids seeming to survive at school but giving their families grief at home and fighting to get more supports IN SCHOOL so the kids wouldn't be so maxed out.

[moonflower]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I prioritize food, rest and movement/play. Everything else comes after those.

Your kids are no doubt exhausted. They are learning how to put in full days outside the home, in a totally new environment and with totally different expectations. Even public school veterans are tired after the school day; that's normal. 

Be gentle on them, mama. Feed them, make sure they get some fun exercise and let them rest. Anything else just isn't so important in the long run. 

FWIW we don't do chores, punishments or lectures. I'm the adult and have better capacities to pick up slack when it's required. DS's job is growing, schoolwork and sorting through all the stuff that comes with being a teenager. My priority is my relationship with him. I could care less about who does laundry or when. Let the tomatoes fly! Lol

 

Personally I would feel the same way about laundry and chores if there were another way for the work to get done, but there just isn't really.  I don't make them do chores to help them learn how or improve their character or whatever; they do them so I can work and afford to feed and clothe them.

I didn't do chores growing up and I turned out okay ?

[MEmama]

11 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

Personally I would feel the same way about laundry and chores if there were another way for the work to get done, but there just isn't really.  I don't make them do chores to help them learn how or improve their character or whatever; they do them so I can work and afford to feed and clothe them.

I didn't do chores growing up and I turned out okay ?

Yeah, me too. I am forever surprised by how many people here insist that children need to "trained", as though it takes more than one time scubbing a toilet to become proficient. ?

I get that all families have different demands and needs. I'm sure your kids will settle in to their new routines soon enough. 

Eta I agree with a pp who mentioned getting them into sports. Best thing EVER for us. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by MEmama

[PeterPan]

Or, if sports aren't going to happen, a treadmill, bike, or some weights...

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Yeah, me too. I am forever surprised by how many people here insist that children need to "trained", as though it takes more than one time scubbing a toilet to become proficient. ?

 

For a shocking number of people, it does! ? I know a lot of adults who struggle with doing things like this effectively. 

OP, on interpersonal tolerance, I would say that it depends on the kids--some will need time alone in a big way to be able to give family members due consideration, but some will need time-in with everyone until they say, "uncle" and learn to be nice. Classrooms seem to foster a sense that how one's peers view and see the world is the only valid way to see it, lol! 

But I would give it a little more time and just worry about nipping the worst of it in the bud and see how things are in another week or two.

[Tanaqui]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

Yeah, me too. I am forever surprised by how many people here insist that children need to "trained", as though it takes more than one time scubbing a toilet to become proficient. ?

I get that all families have different demands and needs. I'm sure your kids will settle in to their new routines soon enough. 

Eta I agree with a pp who mentioned getting them into sports. Best thing EVER for us. 

 

It's not the physical act of scrubbing the toilet. It's the knowledge of when to scrub the toilet, how to best organize your chores so that you aren't wasting your time, whether or not you need to wash your walls, and so on.  Not all of us can just pick that up out of the ether. (And even if we could, I value my free time every bit as much as my kids value theirs. They live in this house. They help make the mess. They eat the food. They can spend a few minutes maintaining our shared living space and helping make our shared meals. I'm not the maid.)

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

It's not the physical act of scrubbing the toilet. It's the knowledge of when to scrub the toilet, how to best organize your chores so that you aren't wasting your time, whether or not you need to wash your walls, and so on.  Not all of us can just pick that up out of the ether. (And even if we could, I value my free time every bit as much as my kids value theirs. They live in this house. They help make the mess. They eat the food. They can spend a few minutes maintaining our shared living space and helping make our shared meals. I'm not the maid.)

I agree with all of this, though I am sticking to my guns on the bolded--some people cannot get toilets, dishes, floors, etc. clean even when they go through the motions and need to be shown how to do it effectively. 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I agree with all of this, though I am sticking to my guns on the bolded--some people cannot get toilets, dishes, floors, etc. clean even when they go through the motions and need to be shown how to do it effectively. 

 

I agree. Some people get to adulthood and don’t really know what makes a clean bathroom look/smell clean or how to go about bringing a dirty bathroom up to that standard. Sometimes people have only a vague idea that it doesn’t feel clean but they aren’t “seeing” the facts that make it so. 

[LMD]

Is anyone else googling the thalidomide documentary? 

Love this thread.

[Condessa]

Some of us live with spouses whose mothers’ perspective on chores was ‘their job is growing and learning, I don’t mind picking up the slack’.  Growing up without habits of keeping your space clean and pitching in when others are working is a disadvantage in adulthood—either they will have to put in the work to change their ingrained habits or it will be a detriment to future relationships with roommates or family members.  

 

ETA: And yes, there are people who don’t know how to do chores properly without being trained, even after many times doing them as adults.  

Edited November 9, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[chiguirre]

4 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

Personally I would feel the same way about laundry and chores if there were another way for the work to get done, but there just isn't really.  I don't make them do chores to help them learn how or improve their character or whatever; they do them so I can work and afford to feed and clothe them.

I didn't do chores growing up and I turned out okay ?

This comment has been haunting me for the last couple hours. I'm sorry that you're so maxed out but you made the choices that led you to this place. Your 7th grader and your 5th grader didn't. It's not fair to them to make chores be about keeping the household afloat instead of being about learning responsibility for completing a task in a low stakes environment. They may not have realized how far out of the main stream their responsibilities were compared to their same age peers until they spent a lot of time comparing notes with them at school. Now that they know that it's not normal for middle class 12 and 10 yos to have to do laundry or make dinner because their adults can't, they may be feeling less certain about their parents' ability to care for them in the same way their peers are cared for. That's got to be a bit traumatic even if it is probably overdramatic.

[cave canem]

2 hours ago, chiguirre said:

This comment has been haunting me for the last couple hours. I'm sorry that you're so maxed out but you made the choices that led you to this place. Your 7th grader and your 5th grader didn't. It's not fair to them to make chores be about keeping the household afloat instead of being about learning responsibility for completing a task in a low stakes environment. They may not have realized how far out of the main stream their responsibilities were compared to their same age peers until they spent a lot of time comparing notes with them at school. Now that they know that it's not normal for middle class 12 and 10 yos to have to do laundry or make dinner because their adults can't, they may be feeling less certain about their parents' ability to care for them in the same way their peers are cared for. That's got to be a bit traumatic even if it is probably overdramatic.

Childhood chores are a strong predictor of adult success and happiness.  When children know that their chores are not mere make-work tasks but contribute vitally to the household, they have a greater sense of their own competence and value. 

Children living with their parents' decisions is the normal order of things.  When I was thirteen, because of my parents' decision several years earlier to buy a very old house, I lived in a house with a faulty roof.  Because of that decision and perhaps also their decisions not to attend college, to have more than one child, and to value family trips, they couldn't afford to hire roofers.  My dad handled the roof, and I was his assistant.  I did not experience trauma because my parents literally couldn't keep a roof over my head without my help, even though I never met another kid in my town who had even been on the roof of her house, never mind worked installing a roof.  I was long past the age when my parents' caring for me meant my work shouldn't be part of the mix.

Our children have less free time than typical kids here because attending religious services is not the norm.  Our children have always had chores--sometimes out of necessity and sometimes just for fairness' sake--unlike many of their middle class peers.

I never heard that discovering different folks doing different strokes caused trauma. I don't see that the skills and attitudes of typical middle class children and young adults recommend keeping up with the Joneses in this regard.

Edited November 9, 2018 by cave canem
subject-verb agreement

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, chiguirre said:

This comment has been haunting me for the last couple hours. I'm sorry that you're so maxed out but you made the choices that led you to this place. Your 7th grader and your 5th grader didn't. It's not fair to them to make chores be about keeping the household afloat instead of being about learning responsibility for completing a task in a low stakes environment. They may not have realized how far out of the main stream their responsibilities were compared to their same age peers until they spent a lot of time comparing notes with them at school. Now that they know that it's not normal for middle class 12 and 10 yos to have to do laundry or make dinner because their adults can't, they may be feeling less certain about their parents' ability to care for them in the same way their peers are cared for. That's got to be a bit traumatic even if it is probably overdramatic.

I don’t know if I missed something in the conversation but I didn’t feel like the original poster was expecting the kids to do all the laundry and cook dinner.  Just normal chores that normal kids do to help out.

[Ausmumof3]

I think mostly when adults can’t figure out how to manage basic chores and setting up a housework system it’s more because of lack of executive function skills than because no ones taught them how to do the chore.  And I say that as someone who probably fits that category.  A huge part of keeping house and life stuff is being able to adjust expectations to changing circumstances and that can be extremely difficult for some of us.

That said I do think it’s good for kids to have some chores but not “make believe” chores that don’t really need doing - something that’s actually helpful and necessary.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

2 hours ago, chiguirre said:

This comment has been haunting me for the last couple hours. I'm sorry that you're so maxed out but you made the choices that led you to this place. Your 7th grader and your 5th grader didn't. It's not fair to them to make chores be about keeping the household afloat instead of being about learning responsibility for completing a task in a low stakes environment. They may not have realized how far out of the main stream their responsibilities were compared to their same age peers until they spent a lot of time comparing notes with them at school. Now that they know that it's not normal for middle class 12 and 10 yos to have to do laundry or make dinner because their adults can't, they may be feeling less certain about their parents' ability to care for them in the same way their peers are cared for. That's got to be a bit traumatic even if it is probably overdramatic.

 

1. Who said they were middle class?

2. Farm kids and poor kids are used to the concept of their parents actually needing them. If they aren't destitute, and or afraid of losing their home, or hungry, they might actually feel confident, capable, and important.

3. I don't think she said they are latchkey children who can't go to school or do activities or have friends or live any kind of life, because they are chained to the stove while she works for their daily crust of bread. I think she just said they are a team and chores aren't optional for any of them.

[chiguirre]

6 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

Personally I would feel the same way about laundry and chores if there were another way for the work to get done, but there just isn't really.  I don't make them do chores to help them learn how or improve their character or whatever; they do them so I can work and afford to feed and clothe them.

I didn't do chores growing up and I turned out okay ?

 

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I don’t know if I missed something in the conversation but I didn’t feel like the original poster was expecting the kids to do all the laundry and cook dinner.  Just normal chores that normal kids do to help out.

 

No, the OP is just completely maxed out between work and many littles. If the 7th and 5th grader don't do it, it wouldn't get done. It's not an unheard of dynamic. There are plenty of single parent homes with an adult working two jobs to make ends meet and tweens have to do the housework, but it is a marker for families under a lot of economic and social stress. I can easily imagine how kids who didn't realize they were this close to the edge might feel when they find out.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, chiguirre said:

This comment has been haunting me for the last couple hours. I'm sorry that you're so maxed out but you made the choices that led you to this place. Your 7th grader and your 5th grader didn't. It's not fair to them to make chores be about keeping the household afloat instead of being about learning responsibility for completing a task in a low stakes environment. They may not have realized how far out of the main stream their responsibilities were compared to their same age peers until they spent a lot of time comparing notes with them at school. Now that they know that it's not normal for middle class 12 and 10 yos to have to do laundry or make dinner because their adults can't, they may be feeling less certain about their parents' ability to care for them in the same way their peers are cared for. That's got to be a bit traumatic even if it is probably overdramatic.

Woah. This was not the impression I got about the situation at all. 

I’m on Team ChoresForKids, but I definitely, absoultely from the earliest ages expected my kids to help in the household, not because I made choices that forced work on my kids, but because I believe it is healthy and right for them to feel ownership in what makes our lives function. There are also MANY circumstances that can simply visit upon the household that will simply require the kids to step up and do tasks they normally don’t. It certainly is nice for it not to be some unheard-of request! 

In the past week, DS13 has done a TON of jobs he normally doesn’t have to do or doesn’t have to do very often, because we had one teammember down (me) and chickens still need to be fed and laundry still has to be washed. And mine is only a small example of how what is normal can change and it sure is nice to not have to explain to a 13yo how to operate a washing machine or fill the chicken waterer. 

[Condessa]

I remember reading a study quite a few years ago about factors of self-esteem in kids, and one of the strongest I didn’t expect at all was that kids with work that they knew was actually meaningful to their families generally had very strong self esteem.  I remember it particularly mentioned farm kids and kids of poorer immigrant families where parents were working long hours and kids were either helping to run the household or earning money for the family.  

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

I remember reading a study quite a few years ago about factors of self-esteem in kids, and one of the strongest I didn’t expect at all was that kids with work that they knew was actually meaningful to their families generally had very strong self esteem.  I remember it particularly mentioned farm kids and kids of poorer immigrant families where parents were working long hours and kids were either helping to run the household or earning money for the family.  

Yes; one of the families I knew from co-op, who sucessfully graduated three homeschooled students, did some really amazing things with their kids. At one point they did a major house renovation and the KIDS planned and executed significant aspects of the reno (with dad’s oversight, of course). They wound up in mechanical and electrical engineering majors and got BIG, HUGE scholarships. The daughter told me once she was shocked that the students in her college classes had never really done any IRL tasks. She knew how to do things they had only ever read about. 

[Tanaqui]

8 hours ago, chiguirre said:

This comment has been haunting me for the last couple hours. I'm sorry that you're so maxed out but you made the choices that led you to this place. Your 7th grader and your 5th grader didn't. It's not fair to them to make chores be about keeping the household afloat instead of being about learning responsibility for completing a task in a low stakes environment. They may not have realized how far out of the main stream their responsibilities were compared to their same age peers until they spent a lot of time comparing notes with them at school. Now that they know that it's not normal for middle class 12 and 10 yos to have to do laundry or make dinner because their adults can't, they may be feeling less certain about their parents' ability to care for them in the same way their peers are cared for. That's got to be a bit traumatic even if it is probably overdramatic.

 

This seems really unkind and uncalled for. Even if your assumptions are correct - and I really doubt these are the only kids in school who have real responsibilities in their family - she can't make new choices now. It's done, and everybody has to step up. (And, as noted, sometimes life just happens. You might be going along swimmingly until one parent dies or gets sick or some other unexpected thing happens and then everybody has to pitch in and do more work.)

[moonflower]

They do more work than some of their same-age peers, for sure  - we have a large family with lots of little kids at the moment, I work from home, and we don't have hired cleaners or whatever.  We do have a dishwasher ? Right now until Christmas is the busy season for our business, kind of live harvest time for farms, I guess.  There are a lot of farm kids in this community, though, so I am pretty sure they aren't the hardest working preteens in the county.  

For the record (not that it matters, because I do think that in some scenarios and/or locations kids this age do more work and it isn't bad for them psychologically or physically), I do all the laundry separate of the putting away and I cook the main meal - we do sort of forage for the other two meals, a lot of PB sandwiches and apples and bags of frozen veg. and etc. They do the dishes, the sweeping, the mopping (of main areas, about 400 sq ft total), and some sort-of childcare - they play with/ keep an eye on the little ones for a couple of hours in the evening and come get me or DH (in a room adjacent to the main room) if someone needs something or wants to talk or whatever.

I did just about zero as a kid growing up and DH did a lot more  - in his family, kids did everything - the cooking, cleaning, laundry, yardwork, all of it.  His mother was effectively a single mother and worked outside the home.

It is true that the older kids didn't decide how many kids we would have, nor did they get to choose what kind of careers DH and I would have.  I'm sure if the oldest could have chosen she'd wish to be an only child with super wealthy parents who also worked short hours.  My second child would of course not want DD13 to have been an only, hah ?  It's also true that we can't care for them in the way that upper-middle class kids are cared for.  We are able to provide for them better than many families (we're married, so our household is stable; we make an income in the top 10% although it is spread much thinner than the average household; we are lucky not to have chronic health issues) but there are also ways in which we are very different from the average family - no one has their own bedroom, for instance.  (we'd need an 8 bedroom house!)  They knew all of this before they started school here, though.  DD13 and DS10 have both been in school before ?

[moonflower]

Regarding the importance of their contribution to the household: if they didn't do the dishes and clean the floors and watch the little ones on occasion, what would we do?

Well, DH and I would do it.  We'd just work a little less at the business, sleep a little less, post on the forums a little less ?  It's not a life or death situation if they just all got mono tomorrow and couldn't help out for a month or something.

But, that said, their contribution is real and important.  If I got sick for a few weeks DH could pick up the slack too, but that doesn't mean my work isn't needed when I can do it.  

Anyway, what worries me more than whining about chores is the unkindness toward siblings and the tendency to melt down when previously there would have been no drama.  They want nothing to do with their younger siblings or with each other where previously they were happy to play together (most of the time).  They snipe and say unkind things (when asked what something says by DD7, DD13 will say "learn to read!"; when DS5 wants to stomp around in the leaves outside with DS10, DS10 will tell him to go away unkindly, etc.) 

I dunno, they say they like school and they are willing to wake up at 6am every morning to go, but they don't seem as happy.  But it's only been a few weeks, that's true.

I wonder if part of it is the technology - at home, we have the one computer that they share and no small electronic devices - no smartphones or tablets or TVs or anything.  At school they've been issued a laptop which they take around with them all day and use during indoor recess, study hall, break times, etc.  In the past when we've stayed with my Mom, where they all have their own tablet and a nintendo and TV and computer and etc., I've noticed that they get much shorter tempered.

[Tanaqui]

Oooh, the enormous increase in screentime - particularly recreational, minimally-supervised screentime - could definitely account for a lot of this. How much control do you have over what they're allowed to use/download onto those laptops?

Quote

Anyway, what worries me more than whining about chores is the unkindness toward siblings and the tendency to melt down when previously there would have been no drama.  They want nothing to do with their younger siblings or with each other where previously they were happy to play together (most of the time).  They snipe and say unkind things (when asked what something says by DD7, DD13 will say "learn to read!"; when DS5 wants to stomp around in the leaves outside with DS10, DS10 will tell him to go away unkindly, etc.)  

 

What I've found works when babysitting kids with a large age gap (and seems to work long term, not just in-the-moment) is to emphasize that being unkind to your younger sibling is teaching them that this is the way to act. "Is this the sort of person you want your little sister to become? She looks up to you and copies everything you do. Do you think she'll be happy if she learns to act like this, and to be mean to other people?" I can be heavy-handed with lectures, lol, but to compensate for that I try to dole them out sparingly.

Edit: I haven't thought of this in years, but I'm really big on sibling closeness. For a while, when the kids were younger - much younger than yours, and a fairly small gap - there was a time when I seemed to say variations on the following every single day: "Your sister is the only person who is going to be with you your entire life. The friends you have now may drift away as you grow older, you'll get new friends who won't know what you were like when you were younger, you'll move away from us grown-ups and eventually bury us, but your sister will be with you your entire life. She is the only person who is going to know what it was like to grow up in this household and live in this neighborhood. She's the only one who will get all the jokes, and know all the stories. Whether you love each other or not, you have got to work it out and learn to get along, because you two are stuck together forever. Like it or not, you've got to find a way to make it work."

And I meant it, too. Squabbling, I could put up with, but I wasn't going to have them being mean to each other, and I was determined that they should understand why. I'm not sure they DID understand, but they learned fast that if they didn't want to deal with a lecture they needed to temper their reactions, especially if they weren't under some extreme provocation.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Tanaqui

[Ausmumof3]

43 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Regarding the importance of their contribution to the household: if they didn't do the dishes and clean the floors and watch the little ones on occasion, what would we do?

Well, DH and I would do it.  We'd just work a little less at the business, sleep a little less, post on the forums a little less ?  It's not a life or death situation if they just all got mono tomorrow and couldn't help out for a month or something.

But, that said, their contribution is real and important.  If I got sick for a few weeks DH could pick up the slack too, but that doesn't mean my work isn't needed when I can do it.  

Anyway, what worries me more than whining about chores is the unkindness toward siblings and the tendency to melt down when previously there would have been no drama.  They want nothing to do with their younger siblings or with each other where previously they were happy to play together (most of the time).  They snipe and say unkind things (when asked what something says by DD7, DD13 will say "learn to read!"; when DS5 wants to stomp around in the leaves outside with DS10, DS10 will tell him to go away unkindly, etc.) 

I dunno, they say they like school and they are willing to wake up at 6am every morning to go, but they don't seem as happy.  But it's only been a few weeks, that's true.

I wonder if part of it is the technology - at home, we have the one computer that they share and no small electronic devices - no smartphones or tablets or TVs or anything.  At school they've been issued a laptop which they take around with them all day and use during indoor recess, study hall, break times, etc.  In the past when we've stayed with my Mom, where they all have their own tablet and a nintendo and TV and computer and etc., I've noticed that they get much shorter tempered.

Definitely the screen time!  Mine get awful with too much.  Indoor recess is a bad idea if they are already in for academics all day.  I wouldn’t be happy about that at all.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Indoor recess is a bad idea if they are already in for academics all day.  I wouldn’t be happy about that at all.

 

Might be that the weather is really bad.

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

 

Might be that the weather is really bad.

Yeah I guess y’all the other side of the world!   But screen time doesn’t seem like a good option for the break.  Still I’m not a teacher so I don’t know what they’re up against.

[Tanaqui]

No, it doesn't. If I had to guess, I'd suggest that the school doesn't really have the facilities for all the students to actively play indoors, nor are they willing to let the kids go back to their classrooms and play seven up or four corners or even hangman. Poor design, overcrowded or understaffed school - no real indoor recess.

[moonflower]

Yep, they only do indoor recess if it's raining, but it's been raining for a week.  DD7 says when they have indoor recess they get to play games on their laptops.  They do have a gym, but I guess it's in use all day with classes?  At least that's my theory.  Of course she loves indoor recess, sigh.

For the first few days they brought the laptops home with them-  most kids do, as some schoolwork is on the computer.  Their first instinct was to sit in their rooms with the lights off watching youtube videos for 4 hours after school.  It was pretty crazy to witness!  Even when restricted, they just wanted to go back to their rooms to use the laptop. Constantly.  Finally DH said look, we chose not to have small electronics at home.  If we'd wanted the kids to have individual computers, we would have bought them.  Leave them at school; you can use the big computer for schoolwork when necessary (we found out that they can sign in to their school account from our computer).  

Even DD7 came home with a laptop!

[Tanaqui]

Either the gym is in use all day, or it's not big enough for more than one class and thus is insufficient for recess time. Can you send a note to the teacher asking that your kids NOT be allowed to play on the laptops during recess, lunch, free time, etc? Ask if they can instead read, draw, play cards, do literally anything else. If they were to bring the laptops home, could you enable parental controls blocking everything non-academic?

[moonflower]

45 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Oooh, the enormous increase in screentime - particularly recreational, minimally-supervised screentime - could definitely account for a lot of this. How much control do you have over what they're allowed to use/download onto those laptops?

 

What I've found works when babysitting kids with a large age gap (and seems to work long term, not just in-the-moment) is to emphasize that being unkind to your younger sibling is teaching them that this is the way to act. "Is this the sort of person you want your little sister to become? She looks up to you and copies everything you do. Do you think she'll be happy if she learns to act like this, and to be mean to other people?" I can be heavy-handed with lectures, lol, but to compensate for that I try to dole them out sparingly.

Edit: I haven't thought of this in years, but I'm really big on sibling closeness. For a while, when the kids were younger - much younger than yours, and a fairly small gap - there was a time when I seemed to say variations on the following every single day: "Your sister is the only person who is going to be with you your entire life. The friends you have now may drift away as you grow older, you'll get new friends who won't know what you were like when you were younger, you'll move away from us grown-ups and eventually bury us, but your sister will be with you your entire life. She is the only person who is going to know what it was like to grow up in this household and live in this neighborhood. She's the only one who will get all the jokes, and know all the stories. Whether you love each other or not, you have got to work it out and learn to get along, because you two are stuck together forever. Like it or not, you've got to find a way to make it work."

And I meant it, too. Squabbling, I could put up with, but I wasn't going to have them being mean to each other, and I was determined that they should understand why. I'm not sure they DID understand, but they learned fast that if they didn't want to deal with a lecture they needed to temper their reactions, especially if they weren't under some extreme provocation.

 

I have zero control except that they have to keep it at school.  The school does block a lot of stuff of course but still lets them say, watch youtube videos (and there are a lot of technically not-obscene youtube videos that I still despise, etc.)

I feel the same way about sibling closeness that you do.  I didn't much like my sister growing up, and I still find her super annoying to live with for any period of time, but she's kind of all I've got in some ways and I appreciate her for that. 

And yes, squabbling is natural and has always been just part of life with a lot of little kids, but meanness is something else.  Insulting the younger sibling, or a sort of outright unkind rejection (go AWAY! I don't want you ANYWHERE NEAR ME! etc.) with no provocation is something new and I don't like it.  I correct it, of course, but it still happens, and there's also the absence of goodwill, which I can't force really and which is no longer there between them, largely.  I am hoping it is mostly just adjustment stress.

[moonflower]

8 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Either the gym is in use all day, or it's not big enough for more than one class and thus is insufficient for recess time. Can you send a note to the teacher asking that your kids NOT be allowed to play on the laptops during recess, lunch, free time, etc? Ask if they can instead read, draw, play cards, do literally anything else. If they were to bring the laptops home, could you enable parental controls blocking everything non-academic?

 

That's a good idea, I bet I could do that.

And yes, they'd love to draw or play cards!  I don't want to ostracize them, though.  I will ask them exactly how it works and see if there is anything I could get them to buy into as an alternative.

[nhtwins]

8 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

I remember reading a study quite a few years ago about factors of self-esteem in kids, and one of the strongest I didn’t expect at all was that kids with work that they knew was actually meaningful to their families generally had very strong self esteem.  I remember it particularly mentioned farm kids and kids of poorer immigrant families where parents were working long hours and kids were either helping to run the household or earning money for the family.  

 

This.  I believe the study was also referenced in the book, How to Raise an Adult, by Julie Lythcott-Haims, the former Dean of Freshman at Stanford University.

Her website contains a TED talk as well.  https://www.julielythcotthaims.com/how-to-raise-an-adult/