Setback for definitive proof of a flat Earth:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Add me to the seriously upset list, I really did think this was all a hoax. I thought it was a trolling fad and nothing more.

 

Why I thought that, when other fantastical "scientific wisdom" abounds, from essential oils curing diseases to other theories that I won't mention...I don't know. I guess I thought the earth being round, not flat, was beyond dispute, but no! And of course there are homeschoolers wanting a piece of this? (And/or flat earthers wanting a piece of homeschooling.) Of course.

[Matryoshka]

According to the Flat Earth Society's Wiki, the sun moves in circles around the North Pole and that's how seasons change.  Flat Earth Society clearly believes the early is a flat disc so I'm not sure how my friend who believes it's rectangular would explain it.

 

Uh, in no way would that explain it being opposite seasons in the southern hemisphere??  Or there not being seasons at the equator?  I mean, c'mon, this stuff like the angle of the sun at different times of day or season is easily measurable by things as old-fashioned as a sextant.  Or even a ruler.  Eratosthenes figured this out with the shadow of a stick.

[creekland]

Why is Flat Earth any more preposterous than Young Earth? 

 

Because from what I've learned regarding Young Earth (those who still believe in science anyway - not connected to Flat Earth folks apparently), they do not disagree with anything seen happening here on earth.  They believe in mutations, natural selection, new species, and countless other things we see.  Where they disagree is in the past and that past can't be duplicated.  We can't go to our film archives and see if there was a flood of some sort.  God, of course, could have done whatever he chose in creating the planet (including creating the appearance of age).  They believe the Grand Canyon (and other canyons of the world) exist.  They just believe it was created in a different way long before anyone was around to put facts about it into our history.

 

That's a quick summary of course.  There will always be places where intelligent folks can disagree on theories about the past - whether it's Atlantis or Nazca Lines or the origin of man (and the Grand Canyon).

 

These Flat Earth folks have to disbelieve what can actually be seen here and now - by anyone.  They're more equivalent (and perhaps the same group) as those who believe dinosaur bones are fake - planted by Satan to deceive.  That takes a lot of faith - if that's what you call it.  I'm not sure it's the right word choice TBH.

 

So why do they think you see completely different stars in the southern hemisphere??

 

Ah... do we know this to be true?  I think I need to check it out in person - and from more than one spot in each hemisphere!

 

Or have their seasons at different times of the year.

 

Same as above.

 

(Creekland is creating a list.  I tell you, this will be a years long research project.  They ought to come up with decent funding so they can truly know some of these things.  I promise to take tons of pictures as proof!)

[Matryoshka]

Ah... do we know this to be true?  I think I need to check it out in person - and from more than one spot in each hemisphere!

 

Telephone?  Internet chat?  Live TV broadcast anywhere in southern hemisphere?

 

Hey, Sadie and Rosie, what season is it down there right now?  Is it winter like here, or no?

 

See - I checked. :D

[Daria]

How do we really know that the seasons are backwards in the Southern Hemisphere, or what stars they see?  I mean, if we're only going to believe what we see with our own eyes, or cherry pick from the Bible, it's possible that the Southern Hemisphere doesn't exist at all.  Perhaps all our "Australian" and "New Zealand" friends are really just NASA bots.

 

Maybe if you get on a plane and go to "Australia", they drug you and put you on a holodeck and convince you that all sorts of improbable things exist, like Christmas in the summer and platypodes and the Southern Cross.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by Daria

[maize]

Telephone? Internet chat? Live TV broadcast anywhere in southern hemisphere?

 

Hey, Sadie and Rosie, what season is it down there right now? Is it winter like here, or no?

 

See - I checked. :D

Creekland's way of checking sounds like much more fun. She and her research crew just need to find the right sponsor!

[Daria]

It's humid. And hot. And rainy! make of that what you will!

 

That's exactly what a NASA bot would say.

[maize]

How do we really know that the seasons are backwards in the Southern Hemisphere, or what stars they see? I mean, if we're only going to believe what we see with our own eyes, or cherry pick from the Bible, it's possible that the doesn't exist at all. Perhaps all our "Australian" and "New Zealand" friends are really just NASA bots.

 

Maybe if you get on a plane and go to "Australia", they drug you and put you on a holodeck and convince you that all sorts of improbable things exist, like Christmas in the summer and platypodes and the Southern Cross.

And, ya know, even those of us who think that we lived or live in the southern hemisphere could have been duped. Maybe those years when I thought I was in South America I was actually in a UN built biodome with a false ceiling that gave the appearance of different star constellations. Surely a conspiracy that can pull of controlling the navigation equipment of every plane and ship on Earth could manage a large biodome or two.

 

For that matter maybe all of life is virtual reality, à la Matrix.

 

But then building rockets to check wouldn't do us any good.

[bibiche]

Because you don't need to understand any science about carbon dating or cosmology etc.

You can fly or sail around the earth and see it's round. You can look at images of earth taken from space.

I suppose. I just see subscribing to either belief in this day and age as willful ignorance.

[LMD]

Telephone? Internet chat? Live TV broadcast anywhere in southern hemisphere?

 

Hey, Sadie and Rosie, what season is it down there right now? Is it winter like here, or no?

 

See - I checked. :D

It's hot! 32 C right now (10.39am on Wed 29th of Nov), I believe that's almost 90 F. The sun is fierce.

 

I also saw half of Orion, Taurus and the Pleiades last night in the North East sky.

 

But, perhaps it's all perspective and conspiracy... or something.

[EMS83]

I wasn't saying that science is baseless--I hope that's not what you got from what I wrote!

 

I am actually a scientist myself (biochemistry), but I suspect that most people's experience of the evidence for scientific understanding is the same as their experience of the evidence for religious understanding: someone told them it was so.  

 

True enough.  I wasn't sure if that's what you were saying--just kind of hedging against that extreme.  I like to stay away from those (usually :D).  I explain it as testimony to the kids, whether it's the Bible, a geography book, or a science book.  And really when you get down to it, that is why we think a great deal of what we think in most areas of life.  Barring testimony, one could go so far as to doubt one's own experience.  I figure at some point we just have to weigh everything (incomplete or imperfect as it may be), and choose to accept or reject various premises.  :)  

[creekland]

Telephone?  Internet chat?  Live TV broadcast anywhere in southern hemisphere?

 

Hey, Sadie and Rosie, what season is it down there right now?  Is it winter like here, or no?

 

See - I checked. :D

 

Don't you DARE try to ruin this trip on me.  :glare:  Nothing you can pretend to check on will be equivalent to my checking it out in person.

 

I'm adding checking to be sure Sadie and Rosie are real people to my checklist...

 

Creekland's way of checking sounds like much more fun. She and her research crew just need to find the right sponsor!

 

Ah yes, you can be on my crew if you wish.   :hurray:

 

No pressure.  We might fall off the edge at some point, so there are risks involved. ;)

[RootAnn]

I hadn't heard of this lately, but I did read an article that proposed that we really don't know to this day that the earth revolves around the sun. The same proofs that scientists use to show that can also be used to show the sun revolves around the earth (or so this guy proposed). I admit to only skimming the article. (This internet page appears to hit on some of the same ideas.)

[Matryoshka]

I hadn't heard of this lately, but I did read an article that proposed that we really don't know to this day that the earth revolves around the sun. The same proofs that scientists use to show that can also be used to show the sun revolves around the earth (or so this guy proposed). I admit to only skimming the article. (This internet page appears to hit on some of the same ideas.)

Well, if you believe in a flat earth, geocentrism kinda follows. Otherwise we're a pancake circling the sun? All the round things in space are of course circling our unique flatness. :lol:

[AnnE-girl]

The comments on that curriculum page! Now, I’m Catholic. I believe a whole lot of things that other people would consider crazy (transubstantiation of the Eucharist, Marian apparitions, saints with the stigmata, etc), and I’m fine with that. But arguing for a flat, fixed earth, in a geocentric universe with all the evidence that has been amassed, and that I could experience for myself if I was adventurous enough to sail around the earth? So much nope. We start our science unit about the solar system with learning about Copernicus, the Catholic priest, and his first theory that the sun did not revolve around the earth. And then we talk about how Galileo’s excommunication was later overturned by the church with greater scientific understanding.

[Daria]

Well, if you believe in a flat earth, geocentrism kinda follows. Otherwise we're a pancake circling the sun? All the round things in space are of course circling our unique flatness. :lol:

 

My googling tells me that some people believe that the flat earth is covered with a dome, kind of like the cover you put over a plate of cookies, and that the stars are stuck to it?  3,100 miles away?  (Note, if it's a dome, I'm not sure how it's a consistent distance above us, wouldn't it be closer the closer you get to the "edge"?)  

[creekland]

My googling tells me that some people believe that the flat earth is covered with a dome, kind of like the cover you put over a plate of cookies, and that the stars are stuck to it?  3,100 miles away?  (Note, if it's a dome, I'm not sure how it's a consistent distance above us, wouldn't it be closer the closer you get to the "edge"?)  

 

So that's why the nut in North Korea's rocket only attained a height of 3000 miles?

 

Good thing he didn't blow a hole in our dome!

 

Hmm, wonder what would have happened if he had...

[Seasider]

My googling tells me that some people believe that the flat earth is covered with a dome, kind of like the cover you put over a plate of cookies, and that the stars are stuck to it? 3,100 miles away? (Note, if it's a dome, I'm not sure how it's a consistent distance above us, wouldn't it be closer the closer you get to the "edge"?)

Like Jim Carey in The Truman Show, creekland is going to sail to the edge and tear a hole in it.

 

Or maybe we're all just tributes.

[creekland]

Like Jim Carey in The Truman Show, creekland is going to sail to the edge and tear a hole in it.

 

Or maybe we're all just tributes.

 

I'm curious enough to see what's on the other side.  I thought you were going with me?  Or is that where your curiosity ends?

 

All for science, of course.  I KNOW hubby is in as long as we can sail there.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Creekland, you could name your vessel "Reepicheep."

[Seasider]

I'm curious enough to see what's on the other side. I thought you were going with me? Or is that where your curiosity ends?

 

All for science, of course. I KNOW hubby is in as long as we can sail there.

I will go! You are the expedition leader!

 

Personally, I'll be looking for Reepicheep.

[Frances]

Nooooooooo.

 

 

I have been saying that for awhile. :( We are back to pitchforks and torches, and wanting to lock scientists up in towers for being heretics.

Margaret Thatcher's undergraduate degree was in chemistry. Angela Merkel has a PhD in chemistry. Both worked as research scientists early in their careers. Given the current state of affairs, I can't even imagine a female scientist ever being elected president of the US.

[creekland]

Creekland, you could name your vessel "Reepicheep."

 

Sounds awesome to me!

[Seasider]

Creekland, you could name your vessel "Reepicheep."

Lol we were typing at the same time!

[Liz CA]

How do we really know that the seasons are backwards in the Southern Hemisphere, or what stars they see?  I mean, if we're only going to believe what we see with our own eyes, or cherry pick from the Bible, it's possible that the doesn't exist at all.  Perhaps all our "Australian" and "New Zealand" friends are really just NASA bots.

 

Maybe if you get on a plane and go to "Australia", they drug you and put you on a holodeck and convince you that all sorts of improbable things exist, like Christmas in the summer and platypodes and the Southern Cross.  

 

Yeah, I figured Rosie is too good to be real.

...And she does not have a "like" button which is very suspect.

[creekland]

Yeah, I figured Rosie is too good to be real.

...And she does not have a "like" button which is very suspect.

 

I'll check on it and report back.  ;)

 

Just gotta get funding.

[rose]

I hadn't heard of this lately, but I did read an article that proposed that we really don't know to this day that the earth revolves around the sun. The same proofs that scientists use to show that can also be used to show the sun revolves around the earth (or so this guy proposed). I admit to only skimming the article. (This internet page appears to hit on some of the same ideas.)

 

Geocentrism strikes me as being different than the FE idea. It seems to my simple brain that geocentrism could be explained mathematically because the universe has no top or bottom, up or down. The mathematical model would be far more convoluted but couldn't you construct an explanation of the heavenly bodies that put the earth at the center? It seems to me that the consensus places the sun at the center because it's a far simpler, more elegant explanation but isn't it just a philosophical argument about the center is. It seems to me that there is no center because there is no end. Am I as clear as mud?

 

:leaving:

[KungFuPanda]

Photos can be faked

But what about other planets that you can SEE through a telescope? Do they think that they’re round but flat like a coin?

 

And how do they account for seasons or warmer weather near the equator ?????

[Rosie_0801]

Telephone?  Internet chat?  Live TV broadcast anywhere in southern hemisphere?

 

Hey, Sadie and Rosie, what season is it down there right now?  Is it winter like here, or no?

 

See - I checked. :D

 

It's too damned hot. But, like, not Hell kind of hot, unless it's true that Hell freezes over sometimes.  :huh:

 

 

So, what does the footstool rest on and where can I find a picture of this flat earth that has the time zones mapped out?

 

 

If you're flying into Tullamarine, Creekland, give us a yell. My testimony is worth nothing without a proper investigating scientist like yourself validating I'm not a hoax.

[Rosie_0801]

So that's why the nut in North Korea's rocket only attained a height of 3000 miles?

 

Good thing he didn't blow a hole in our dome!

 

Hmm, wonder what would have happened if he had...

 

According to the great scientific documentary series 'Red Dwarf,' they'd have to go up and put a toupee over it.

 

 

 

KungfuPanda, not Creekland wrote

And how do they account for seasons or warmer weather near the equator ?????

 

 

Even reasonable people don't believe weather reports!

[creekland]

Yes, or at least the navigation systems on them are in on it.  The pilots themselves are probably not in on it and are just being duped like the rest of us.  I find the belief that every country's navigation systems are in on it thing to be amazing.  I mean, that would be quite something for every country in the world's high ups to have agreed to keep this flat earth thing a secret.  And why would they even do it?!?!

 

Thinking about this more overnight, esp since distance makes a difference in planning my exploration, navigation systems being rigged wouldn't be able to explain this one.  We know the time it takes to fly over a continent - no water - just land - so easy to see to be sure one isn't flying in circles.  Extrapolating that onto their map still gives a much longer time to fly from Australia to Venezuela.  A rigged navigation system could delay a trip, but I see no way at all that it could speed one up by 10 hours or so.  Or do we believe in worm holes that the pilots can't see now?

 

 

I hadn't heard of this lately, but I did read an article that proposed that we really don't know to this day that the earth revolves around the sun. The same proofs that scientists use to show that can also be used to show the sun revolves around the earth (or so this guy proposed). I admit to only skimming the article. (This internet page appears to hit on some of the same ideas.)

 

Going back to Astronomy class in my high school days this (from your article) is the reason the switch was made:

 

Starting from a heliocentric viewpoint, Kepler (1571-1630) was able to formulate laws of planetary motion which accurately described the orbits of the planets for the first time. Newton (1643-1727) was then able to explain why Kepler's laws worked based upon his famous law of gravity. This tremendous progress in understanding resulted in almost universal acceptance of heliocentricity and rejection of geocentricity.

 

Geocentricity does not explain the retrograde motion we see from other planets also orbiting the sun.  Normal motion?  Either theory works, but for a short period of time, planets appear to move backward in the sky.  How does that happen?  It's simple with all of us orbiting the sun.  Maybe I'm slow this morning, but I don't see where what that article talks about motion addressing the retrograde times.  The theories back in the old days were hardly decent ones either.  Then too, now that we've sent space probes out, we're absolutely positive about orbits, etc, but I suppose the duped think those were fake.

 

http://earthsky.org/space/what-is-retrograde-motion

[creekland]

If you're flying into Tullamarine, Creekland, give us a yell. My testimony is worth nothing without a proper investigating scientist like yourself validating I'm not a hoax.

 

That's definitely how I feel.  There are other Boardies I'm suspect of too... I might have to visit a bunch of them to be sure they're real, esp when they report things like weather and local time at their location.  ;)

 

You really do need a like button.  I agree with others that the fact that you don't have one makes you doubly suspect - like you're one of the ringleaders duping us all into this spherical earth concept.  

 

But I'd love to check it out in person just so we all can know the truth.  :coolgleamA:   I'm thinking a good investigation would take 5-10 years.  How to get them to fund it... that's the major sticking point.

[regentrude]

Geocentrism strikes me as being different than the FE idea. It seems to my simple brain that geocentrism could be explained mathematically because the universe has no top or bottom, up or down. The mathematical model would be far more convoluted but couldn't you construct an explanation of the heavenly bodies that put the earth at the center? It seems to me that the consensus places the sun at the center because it's a far simpler, more elegant explanation but isn't it just a philosophical argument about the center is. It seems to me that there is no center because there is no end. Am I as clear as mud?

 

There are two things mixed up here.

The Sun is at the center of our solar system, not at the center of the universe.

This is not a philosophical issue, but a scientific one. There is no alternate theory to the theory of gravitation that explains the observations for planetary motion; we have plenty of evidence for a heliocentric solar system.

But this has nothing to do with the universe. Scientists do not claim that our sun is the center of the universe; there is no center of the universe since it is curved in spacetime.

Edited November 29, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I hadn't heard of this lately, but I did read an article that proposed that we really don't know to this day that the earth revolves around the sun. The same proofs that scientists use to show that can also be used to show the sun revolves around the earth (or so this guy proposed). I admit to only skimming the article. (This internet page appears to hit on some of the same ideas.)

 

I teach my student to critically evaluate sources when they research a topic.

It would not have occurred to me to consider the website of the Institute for Creation Research as a valid source for scientific information.

 

The scientific debate about the heliocentric vs geocentric solar system was definitively settled several hundred years ago.

[Rosie_0801]

That's definitely how I feel.  There are other Boardies I'm suspect of too... I might have to visit a bunch of them to be sure they're real, esp when they report things like weather and local time at their location.  ;)

 

You really do need a like button.  I agree with others that the fact that you don't have one makes you doubly suspect - like you're one of the ringleaders duping us all into this spherical earth concept.  

 

I'm in cahoots with the Korean spammers, if you must know.  :coolgleamA:  

[Laura Corin]

That's definitely how I feel.  There are other Boardies I'm suspect of too... I might have to visit a bunch of them to be sure they're real, esp when they report things like weather and local time at their location.  ;)

 

 

I think you need to come to Scotland in summer and winter to check out the different day lengths.  We only get a few hours of very doubtful night in summer, and right now we only have 7 1/2 hours between sunrise and sunset.

 

Band name: Very Doubtful Night

[maize]

But what about other planets that you can SEE through a telescope? Do they think that they’re round but flat like a coin?

 

And how do they account for seasons or warmer weather near the equator ?????

I think that the earth being flat doesn't necessarily mean other celestial bodies are flat.

 

I've been thinking about the season thing. If the sun circles above the earth with the North Pole at the center, moving its circular path nearer and farther from the center could perhaps cause a sort of summer and winter effect for those in the North except that wouldn't the actual day cycle be shorter in the summer and longer in the winter then?

 

I'm stumped.

Edited November 29, 2017 by maize

[Laura Corin]

I think that the earth being flat doesn't necessarily mean other celestial bodies are flat.

 

I've been thinking about the season thing. If the sun circles above the earth with the North Pole at the center, moving its circular path nearer and farther from the center could perhaps cause a sort of summer and winter effect for those in the North except that wouldn't the actual day cycle be shorter in the summer and longer in the winter then?

 

I'm stumped.

 

If it's flat, moving the sun wouldn't make that much difference to day length, would it?  As it is, the curvature of the earth 'gets in the way' of the sun's rays.

[maize]

If it's flat, moving the sun wouldn't make that much difference to day length, would it? As it is, the curvature of the earth 'gets in the way' of the sun's rays.

I was thinking of the sun making a wider circle and taking longer, so the actual 24 hour cycle changing over the course of the year. But maybe it would just move faster when the circle was wider.

[kitten18]

I was thinking of the sun making a wider circle and taking longer, so the actual 24 hour cycle changing over the course of the year. But maybe it would just move faster when the circle was wider.

Stop. You're hurting my brain. 😜😂

[itsheresomewhere]

But what about other planets that you can SEE through a telescope? Do they think that they’re round but flat like a coin?

 

And how do they account for seasons or warmer weather near the equator ?????

 

What an easy question to answer- have you ever seen the Truman show with Jim Carrey? That movie shows how they trick us and what we see is not real. They have programmed our minds to see what they want us to see.

 

Lol.

 

I was listening an a person on the radio explaining this. It was beyond hilarious to us that someone actually believed it.

[creekland]

I think you need to come to Scotland in summer and winter to check out the different day lengths.  We only get a few hours of very doubtful night in summer, and right now we only have 7 1/2 hours between sunrise and sunset.

 

Band name: Very Doubtful Night

 

Adding this to my list.  It's definitely important.  Summer data will be more important than winter data though (just being honest!).

[maize]

Adding this to my list. It's definitely important. Summer data will be more important than winter data though (just being honest!).

For winter data, may I suggest that the St. Lucia festival season in Sweden is quite lovely.

[Innisfree]

For more winter data, I've always wanted to go to the Up Helly Aa festival in the Shetland Islands.

 

http://www.uphellyaa.org

 

I volunteer to cover that, as soon as funding is secured.

[Laura Corin]

Adding this to my list. It's definitely important. Summer data will be more important than winter data though (just being honest!).

It's just above freezing with clear blue skies today. I love rain shadows and living on the east coast.

[Matryoshka]

What an easy question to answer- have you ever seen the Truman show with Jim Carrey? That movie shows how they trick us and what we see is not real. They have programmed our minds to see what they want us to see.

 

Lol.

 

I was listening an a person on the radio explaining this. It was beyond hilarious to us that someone actually believed it.

 

And they did this way back in the age of Exploration when the first people circumnavigated the earth (and would have noticed it being way longer than expected in the southern hemisphere as they posit if it were flat, as they would have run out of food and starved)??  Or farther back when Galileo and Copernicus figured out heliocentrism?  Or even farther back to ancient Greece when Eratosthenes figured out the correct circumference of the ball-shaped earth? 

 

Who was running all the tech back then?  God?  God is somehow running a virtual Truman show on us?  Why???

[Word Nerd]

But what about other planets that you can SEE through a telescope? Do they think that they’re round but flat like a coin?

 

And how do they account for seasons or warmer weather near the equator ?????

 

THEY just want you to think there are planets. What you see in a telescope is just a hologram.

[Matryoshka]

THEY just want you to think there are planets. What you see in a telescope is just a hologram.

 

Galileo saw holograms?

 

Wait, it must be that all of history is also just implanted in our minds!  It's all fake!  So now, not only do we not need to worry our brains about science and direct observation, we can also dispense with learning anything about that pesky history, since it's all just fake anyway!  

[Nan in Mass]

I wonder how many people living on the coast involved with boats believe FE? I suspect tbis is all a lot easier to believe if you live in tbe middle of the country and don't travel.

[rose]

There are two things mixed up here.

The Sun is at the center of our solar system, not at the center of the universe.

This is not a philosophical issue, but a scientific one. There is no alternate theory to the theory of gravitation that explains the observations for planetary motion; we have plenty of evidence for a heliocentric solar system.

But this has nothing to do with the universe. Scientists do not claim that our sun is the center of the universe; there is no center of the universe since it is curved in spacetime.

 

Thank you. I know that I'm ignorant of some of these issues. I certainly don't teach a geocentric view point because frankly I see no reason to do so. I guess that my questions were just based on ignorance. The issue of what would cause the movement of the planets in a geocentric model would be hard to explain.

 

Edited to not make myself look really loony

Edited November 29, 2017 by Rose M