What the deal with dogs and shopping?

[HS Mom in NC]

Anyway, I guess I could say the same about kids - "the well behaved ones I don't even notice they exist, the others should stay home with their nanny"  

 

 

 

 

That's not true.  People most certainly don't only consider dogs and children they don't notice as being well behaved. People tend to especially notice well behaved children and dogs.

 

Expecting a dog to be well trained or stay at home isn't unreasonable. Few badly behaved children bite and jump on others, and those that do, we expect their caretakers to be close enough at hand to stop them or to take them home. And since there's never a reason for a dog to be at the clothing store or the grocery store if the dog isn't a trained service animal,  drawing the parallel between pet dogs out and about and kids out and about doesn't make rational sense.

 

People aren't allergic to other children.  People don't have phobias of other children.  Out in public means being around other people.  Children are other people-dogs are not.

 

There are just too many excuses being made for dog owners with poor judgment.  I appreciate the dog owners here who accurately recognize if their dogs are candidates for being out in public.

[MercyA]

I love this commercial. So sweet.

 

 

I really considered this sling before I purchased my dog stroller and before my back was so bad. The stroller has worked out better. We just can't do a lot of off roading anymore. Sorry, getting off topic. This thread just reminded me of this commercial.

 

Riffing off Firefly: "Man walks down the street in that sling, people know he's not afraid of anything."  :D

 

I love it!

[MercyA]

People aren't allergic to other children.  People don't have phobias of other children.  Out in public means being around other people.  Children are other people-dogs are not.

 

I assume you don't know anyone with OCD. :) The drool, the snot, the messy diapers, the uncovered sneezing and coughing, the nose-picking, the chewing on everything--it's enough to send even neurotypical people over the edge. 

 

PSA, while we're on the subject: Please, people, wipe your kids' noses, for their sake as well as everyone else's. Give them Kleenex if they're old enough to do it themselves. Make them cover their mouths when they cough. Don't set them in the shopping cart with nothing but a saggy diaper between them and the seat. Don't let them pick their noses. It's not difficult to teach them it's not appropriate, but somehow people can't seem to be bothered. Don't let them grab things when their hands have just been in their mouth. Don't let them chew on things and then put those things back on the shelf. Please. I'm not trying to be unkind, but it's just gross.

 

:rant:

Edited November 13, 2017 by MercyA

[MercyA]

Rats tend to freak out people even more than dogs though LOL.  There's a psychology prof around here though that brings her pet rats to class....

 

I'd love to be in that class. My daughter and I saw a rat at an adoption day a while back. He was so sweet and just as eager for attention as any of the dogs, if not more so! 

 

I've told this story here a few times before, but it's worth telling again. A friend, as a child, had a pet rat. The rat loved chocolate (I know, probably a no-no) and carefully squirreled it away in his cage when he received some. The rat became old and developed health problems. My friend took him to the vet, who told her the rat was not long for this world. My friend took her dear rat home and wept over him. The rat ran in his cage, dug out a half-eaten chocolate Easter egg, brought it out, and set it in front of my friend. True story.

 

If that's not proof of a soul (or, at the very least, true love and selfless empathy), I don't know what is.  :Angel_anim:

 

ETA: Chocolate in moderation is probably okay for rats:

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/ratchoc.htm

http://www.ratcentral.com/can-rats-eat-chocolate/

Edited November 13, 2017 by MercyA

[kbutton]

 People are very delusional about their dog being "under control".

 

Yep. They are also the people most likely to say to me, "You aren't a big fan of dogs, are you?" 

[AmandaVT]

Not sure if I should chalk this up to Only in Florida - but - "Florida Man Fighting to Keep Emotional Support Squirrel" just popped up on my FB feed tonight.  :lol:

[MercyA]

Not sure if I should chalk this up to Only in Florida - but - "Florida Man Fighting to Keep Emotional Support Squirrel" just popped up on my FB feed tonight.  :lol:

 

Dude needs to get another apartment, I think. I'm not sure if that squirrel would be able to live in the wild at this point.

Edited November 14, 2017 by MercyA

[Catwoman]

I'd love to be in that class. My daughter and I saw a rat at an adoption day a while back. He was so sweet and just as eager for attention as any of the dogs, if not more so!

 

I've told this story here a few times before, but it's worth telling again. A friend, as a child, had a pet rat. The rat loved chocolate (I know, probably a no-no) and carefully squirreled it away in his cage when he received some. The rat became old and developed health problems. My friend took him to the vet, who told her the rat was not long for this world. My friend took her dear rat home and wept over him. The rat ran in his cage, dug out a half-eaten chocolate Easter egg, brought it out, and set it in front of my friend. True story.

 

If that's not proof of a soul (or, at the very least, true love and selfless empathy), I don't know what is. :Angel_anim:

 

ETA: Chocolate in moderation is probably okay for rats:

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/ratchoc.htm

http://www.ratcentral.com/can-rats-eat-chocolate/

 

Awww... that is the sweetest story!

[MercyA]

nm :)  

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by MercyA

[hornblower]

What's with the kids and dogs comparisons?

 

Children are human beings. If they were trained to behave as we train dogs, it would correctly labeled as abusive. So, in light of that, what does "some kids act up" have to do with people not keeping their pets well in hand in places pets aren't supposed to be, are where they are typically frowned upon.

 

Its completely unrelated.

 

It's completely related to me. 

 

a) I don't train dogs with violence or force and I'm working on several initiatives to ban such methods, such as outlawing the sale of shock collars. And for that matter, there are many people who do use harsh punitive methods with their children; some of them are on this board. 

 

b) speciesism  

 

c) for many people their pets do replace the psychological role of human offspring. Why does that bug others? 

 

d) I really do find most kids super annoying but I love dogs 

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

I have the same view for dogs as CC!

 

Train it or crate it or leave it at home.

 

Permit showing minimum service dog training has been achieved or can't take it out and about in public or in public buildings.

 

Humans > Dogs. I'm a happy proponent of speciesism and admit I have a difficult time taking anyone serious who says they aren't. Children are not on par with dogs. I can understand and empathize with having an emotional attachment to a dog, but no, not on par with an actual child. I can understand finding children annoying, humans are annoying in general. Still doesn't change humans > dogs.

[Pawz4me]

What's with the kids and dogs comparisons?

 

Children are human beings. If they were trained to behave as we train dogs, it would correctly labeled as abusive. So, in light of that, what does "some kids act up" have to do with people not keeping their pets well in hand in places pets aren't supposed to be, are where they are typically frowned upon.

 

Its completely unrelated.

 

The bolded is simply false.

 

Many of the training methods used for kids are dogs are the same or very similar. I'm a huge believer in positive reinforcement for both, always keeping things fun and upbeat, rewarding and reinforcing good behavior and (as much as possible) ignoring "bad" behavior.

[BarbecueMom]

I'm not so sure CPS would be thrilled if I was training my kids to routinely* poop in the backyard.

 

*They are boys, so a once-off isn't out of the range of possibility.

[MedicMom]

I have the same view for dogs as CC!

 

Train it or crate it or leave it at home.

 

Permit showing minimum service dog training has been achieved or can't take it out and about in public or in public buildings.

 

Humans > Dogs. I'm a happy proponent of speciesism and admit I have a difficult time taking anyone serious who says they aren't. Children are not on par with dogs. I can understand and empathize with having an emotional attachment to a dog, but no, not on par with an actual child. I can understand finding children annoying, humans are annoying in general. Still doesn't change humans > dogs.

All of this. Yes.

I do think humans are more important than animals. I guess I had no idea that was ever in question.

[Innisfree]

Permit showing minimum service dog training has been achieved or can't take it out and about in public or in public buildings.

.

So, again, this is the point I tried to make before (and Murphy, please forgive my using your post as a springboard):

 

There *is no* permit showing minimum service dog training. It doesn't exist. Individual organizations train their own dogs, and lots of individuals who are disabled train their own dogs. There is no national certifying organization, and self-training is perfectly legal, but no organization exists to certify those dogs.

 

The best that individual trainers can do is, first, have their dogs pass the Canine Good Citizen test. We have two dogs who have passed it, and the training and testing standards varied widely between the two groups administering the test. It by no means guarantees perfect public behavior, though hopefully it might weed out some basic temperament issues and complete lack of training.

 

And, secondly, do lots of public access training, which requires public access as a service dog in training. By this stage the dog should be identified by a vest. I completely agree that dogs don't generalize well. We've needed to retrain almost completely in different locations (we are not doing service dog training at this point, just obedience). Ultimately, ideally, individual trainers should have their dogs pass a public access test supervised by a neutral trainer, and video that test so they can produce it if needed as proof of training.

 

But that video is all they'll have as proof, and there isn't any law about the video. There's really nothing they can whip out to prove they have a "real" service dog.

 

Of course, for a very reasonable sum [/sarcasm], several internet companies will be happy to sell you a certification card, and some perfectly legitimate organizations may provide them for their dogs.

 

A card, unfortunately, proves nothing. I do think we need some national testing standards and certification, but they do not exist now. And that allows people to abuse the system.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Innisfree

[Pawz4me]

You literally make kids do tricks or default to a certain bodily posture (sit) and then give them treats until they do what you tell them to do by ingrained "instinct?"

 

And you're always upbeat?

You really, really do not understand the first thing about dog training.

[eternalsummer]

If you dog in a sling never went into a store, restaurant, library, etc then I am completely cool with it.

I object talking about people who bring their dogs inside, with places that say 'service dogs  only'.

I do have a personal prejudice against thinking dogs are 'like people' in that they have inalienable rights equal to any human.  In a burning building I'd save my kid, not my dog.  But  I love our dog, I revolve my week around her daily 2 mile (at least) walks, she comes on vacation with us when we go camping, she has a special spot in my heart.  My daughter can't sleep without her. 

 

 

 

Not only that, in a burning building, I'd save your kid, not my dog (obviously).

 

I am a huge animal rights advocate.  I don't think, on the whole, that a private business owner who wants to keep dogs out of his store (or cats, or tarantulas, or anything really) should be disrespected by people who want to bring their dogs in that store for whatever reason.  

 

It's kind of a - if you don't let me bring my dog into your house, how will he learn to be well behaved in your house? - sort of argument.  It makes no sense.  There are places where, in our society, pets are not welcome.  Whether you think they should be welcome there is immaterial in the matter of your bringing your dog there - the dog is not experiencing a denial of its human rights by not being allowed in some grocery stores.  Dogs are not a racial or religious minority; they deserve not to be abused but they don't deserve equal access under the law to all places that serve the public.

[eternalsummer]

Children, also, besides being human, are in a process of growth - childhood is a stage.  They will grow (barring exceptions, which a compassionate and relatively well-off society makes allowances for) into responsible adults.  There is a reason for society to be invested in childrens' growth into responsible adults - they're the ones who will make sure the machine is still running when we, their parents and grandparents, are too old to run things anymore.

 

We don't, as a society, have the same investment in the growth and maturity of dogs.  First of all, they will never be responsible members of society who keep the lights on.  Maybe 1% of dogs will help with some tasks, but on the whole they're ornamental.  Secondly, even the useful and well-socialized dogs will never get beyond not pooping in the middle of the store, not biting people, maybe occasionally becoming a reliable sheep herder or bomb sniffer or emotional support companion.  They will not train other dogs to do these things; they're not even allowed to reproduce, generally speaking, which is the fundamental biological imperative of all life.

 

So I don't know that we're talking about dogs' rights, anyway, as much as humans' rights to do what they like with their dogs.  I just don't see "doing what I want with my dog" as much of a humans' rights issue.

[Murphy101]

So, again, this is the point I tried to make before (and Murphy, please forgive my using your post as a springboard):

 

There *is no* permit ....

I never said there was a permit, state or national. My point was that there should be and there's no reason for there not to be.

 

I disagree the training has to be done with public access as you suggest.

[eternalsummer]

I will say, though, that I don't care if you want to push your dog around in a stroller or carry it in a sling or baby it like a baby.  I might find it strange, but I find a lot of things strange.  I prefer a dog in a stroller in public to a dog on a leash, and I prefer both to a dog running about randomly.  

[Lady Florida.]

Not sure if I should chalk this up to Only in Florida - but - "Florida Man Fighting to Keep Emotional Support Squirrel" just popped up on my FB feed tonight.  :lol:

 

Oh Florida Man. Why? 

[Innisfree]

I never said there was a permit, state or national. My point was that there should be and there's no reason for there not to be.

 

I disagree the training has to be done with public access as you suggest.

Okay. Yes, I also think there should be a permit.

 

But, what substitute would you suggest for public access training? I think every reputable group uses it. If a dog is going to need to function in a grocery store, he has to be trained in a grocery store. He should have basic obedience down first, but then he needs to learn that "heel" still means "heel" in a store, and how to deal with carts, and so on. I'm just not sure this could be omitted.

 

That does not mean spurious service dogs should be in stores. It's just hard, as a practical matter, to regulate. I guess ideally it would be a two-tiered certification: first "ready for public access training", then "certified service dog".

[Bluegoat]

How is it that so many people who have badly behaved dogs are so unaware that their dogs are badly behaved?  I know people with badly behaved dogs (disobedient, unnecessary barking/whining, crotch sniffing, pulling on leashes, etc.) who talk about how well behaved their dogs are because they are genuinely clueless about what others consider well behaved.   And why do so many dog owners fail to clean up after their dogs in public parks and public sidewalks?  I walk and hike regularly and am not impressed by most dog owners I see out and about ignoring this basic responsibility of ownership.

 

In general, because the typical dog owner fails in these areas, it's not acceptable to have dogs in public places in the US.  You want to take your dog in out in public and not have people resent you?  Then take the time or spend the money to have a very well trained dog.

 

At a piano lesson my kid was attacked by a "fur baby" on a leash owned by the parent of the kid having the lesson before her. She asked permission to pet the dog.  (Probably a Jack Russel mix.)   "But he's never done that before!??!??!?!? He's always been so friendly!?!?!?" said the owner.  Uh, well that doesn't change the fact that it happened to my kid. That's the central problem with many situations-you can't always predict future bad behavior based on a perfect past track record.  Sorry owners, you just don't know what your dog is going to do.  You're wishfully hoping it will be fine and some of you will win that gamble, but some of you will lose and cause someone to be harmed for no good reason.   Your dog needs a dog friend and a nice yard, not to be out and about with people.

 

At a get together for a friend's I was 6 weeks postpartum from a c-section that got infected and almost killed me. It was my first trip out of the house and I was not 100%.  Someone brought a dog this social gathering (I have no idea why) and one of the children who was there, a girl of about 8 or 9, had a terrible fear of dogs.  She walked down the hallway into the room right next to where I was sitting, saw the dog and jumped screaming into the nearest lap-mine. Another dog owner causing someone harm because they brought a dog to an inappropriate setting.

 

This weekend I was at a baby shower.  The hostess has a fur baby and a 2 year old.  Another guest brought their Husky mix puppy to play with the hostess's dog INSIDE! The husky was constantly jumping at the 2 year old's face and the owner wasn't supervising it, so the other guests kept having to protect the 2 year old.  There was almost an hour of it before the owner decided to take the dog outside. Dog owner failure X2.  Hostess should've insisted they go in the backyard and the owner should've insisted they go in the backyard.

 

I have a very low opinion of dog owners in general because of these kinds of incidents.  I know of one very well trained dog. A few other owners keep their obnoxious dogs away from company and the public.  Again, if you're not going to train your dog very well, keep your dog away from other people. 

 

 

I was thinking about this.

 

I think it must be the same reason so many people don't realize their kids are unsocialized pains in the butts.

 

Something cultural is missing that makes people realize they have impossible kids or dogs.

 

ETA - I like kids and dogs in most places.  But I do wonder why it is people often don't realize that they need to teach them how to behave in society - do they not notice?  Do they not care?  Do they think it isn't possible?

Edited November 14, 2017 by Bluegoat

[Murphy101]

Yes, I could see tiered training permits. General obedience is far removed from the more extensive training for service animals. But if anywhere wants to deny dogs that aren’t service level, that should be their choice.

 

That a dog can’t be taught to heel somewhere unless he is there is nonsense. Heel means heel. Not heel here but not there *unless* the trainer or the owner has allowed it to mean one thing at home and another everywhere else.

[Murphy101]

I was thinking about this.

 

I think it must be the same reason so many people don't realize their kids are unsocialized pains in the butts.

 

Something cultural is missing that makes people realize they have impossible kids or dogs.

 

ETA - I like kids and dogs in most places. But I do wonder why it is people often don't realize that they need to teach them how to behave in society - do they not notice? Do they not care? Do they think it isn't possible?

I don’t know. What other people think is adorable in their pets, I don’t think is that at all. My dogs do not lick anyone. My dogs do not bark incessantly. My dogs do not jump on anyone or climb into laps. My dogs do not sniff crotches or purses. My dogs do not act “jealous†of any family member. Just no. I hear people talk about how endearing those behaviors are and I don’t get it. That’s not good behavior. That’s really bad training creating an ill-mannered dog. I expect a puppy to act that way and thus I also expect them to be very tightly controled until they are better trained.

 

Maybe I’ve just had the smartest dogs ever. I don’t think so though.

 

Eta: well. My dogs will climb into a lap, but only after being given permission. You have to motion to your lap and say up first. Then they just about lose their mind in joy.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Murphy101

[Innisfree]

Yes, I could see tiered training permits. General obedience is far removed from the more extensive training for service animals. But if anywhere wants to deny dogs that aren’t service level, that should be their choice.

 

 

[Yes, completely agree that it should be their choice.]

 

 

 

That a dog can’t be taught to heel somewhere unless he is there is nonsense. Heel means heel. Not heel here but not there *unless* the trainer or the owner has allowed it to mean one thing at home and another everywhere else.

 

But that's just exactly what the fact that dogs can't generalize does mean. A class at the local training club is a vastly different environment than my street at home, and both are different from the grocery store. Most (not all) humans generalize pretty easily, but dogs don't. You're right, the trainer has to make sure the dog gets the point. It takes practice in new environments. There will be mistakes during training.

[gardenmom5]

I don’t know. What other people think is adorable in their pets, I don’t think is that at all. My dogs do not lick anyone. My dogs do not bark incessantly. My dogs do not jump on anyone or climb into laps. My dogs do not sniff crotches or purses. My dogs do not act “jealous†of any family member. Just no. I hear people talk about how endearing those behaviors are and I don’t get it. That’s not good behavior. That’s really bad training creating an ill-mannered dog. I expect a puppy to act that way and thus I also expect them to be very tightly controled until they are better trained.

 

Maybe I’ve just had the smartest dogs ever. I don’t think so though.

 

Eta: well. My dogs will climb into a lap, but only after being given permission. You have to motion to your lap and say up first. Then they just about lose their mind in joy.

 

 

and the people who think a sassy snotty four year old is "cute", so they don't correct it.    it's not cute when they're fourteen.

 

and agree with heel means heel. My mother had a dog someone else trained. didn't matter where they were - the dog heeled.

eta: my GSD always heeled on leash - didn't matter where we were, and always came when called.  that she didn't always heel off-leash was on me.

Edited November 14, 2017 by gardenmom5

[HS Mom in NC]

You literally make kids do tricks or default to a certain bodily posture (sit) and then give them treats until they do what you tell them to do by ingrained "instinct?"

 

And you're always upbeat?

You and everyone else here knows very well that's not what she's saying.

[TeenagerMom]

and the people who think a sassy snotty four year old is "cute", so they don't correct it.    it's not cute when they're fourteen.

 

and agree with heel means heel. My mother had a dog someone else trained. didn't matter where they were - the dog heeled.

eta: my GSD always heeled on leash - didn't matter where we were, and always came when called.  that she didn't always heel off-leash was on me.

 

I have a friend with a GSD that is extremely well trained. She doesn't go to public stores, etc but her owner has does extensive work with her.  I've helped provide distractions (food, noise, fun toys), etc.  She always obeys her commands.  I take her running with me sometimes to help her work out and as personal protection (she's a giant so her size itself is a deterrent). She follows the command of anyone who has hold of her lead, even with her owner providing distraction also. 

 

A dog does not have to go in public to be well behaved and trained.

 

(That being said, I do understand the need for training a working service dog to do their job in a grocery store, etc if they are helping retrieve items, etc).

[HS Mom in NC]

If dogs are truly equal to humans then it's perfectly acceptable to rehome a new child if the dog already living there doesn't handle the new child well or to run into a burning home and get the dog first before the child.  No one really believes any of that because everyone knows full well children are more important than animals when it comes down to making a choice in real life scenarios.

[MercyA]

Children are not little creatures PEOPLE like to take places

 

Children ARE people.

 

Oh, come on, okbud. I was trying to be funny and trying to make a point at the same time. I guess I failed on both counts. Did you miss my grin?----> :D

 

I spent years of my life as a pro-life advocate, counselor, and protestor. You truly do not need to convince me that children (of all ages and stages of development) are people.  :)

 

Obviously I touched a nerve and offended some of you. I apologize and will edit my post. 

 

ETA: And, FWIW, I don't use "creature" as a derogatory term and probably tend to forget that others do. "Creatures," to me, are beings created by God, full of beauty and diversity. It's a term that brings to my mind old hymns like "All Creatures of Our God and King" and the Doxology. YMMV.

Edited November 14, 2017 by MercyA

[Murphy101]

But that's just exactly what the fact that dogs can't generalize does mean. A class at the local training club is a vastly different environment than my street at home, and both are different from the grocery store. Most (not all) humans generalize pretty easily, but dogs don't. You're right, the trainer has to make sure the dog gets the point. It takes practice in new environments. There will be mistakes during training.

I simply disagree. Heel means heel. I’ve never had to train in various environments for my dogs to know that a command is a command no matter where we are.

[Reefgazer]

I don't have a problem with animals in stores; it was common in Europe when I visited there, although it seemed to be mainly dogs.

[8circles]

Nm.

 

This conversation is bananas

 

Yes, it is bananas. Because this:

You literally make kids do tricks or default to a certain bodily posture (sit) and then give them treats until they do what you tell them to do by ingrained "instinct?"

 

And you're always upbeat?

is ridiculous and you know it.

 

There is a whole lot of space between 

Train it or crate it or leave it at home.

 

 

and dogs = humans. And pretty much everyone here objecting to the former, with maybe one or two exceptions, is in that space. This cannot be your first introduction to someone who believes in this kind of biocentrism.

[Murphy101]

(That being said, I do understand the need for training a working service dog to do their job in a grocery store, etc if they are helping retrieve items, etc).

I could see that, but I don’t *think* even the specialized service trainers paid thousands of dollars actually do that. Could be wrong. Or like most things, technique probably varies.

[gardenmom5]

I have a friend with a GSD that is extremely well trained. She doesn't go to public stores, etc but her owner has does extensive work with her.  I've helped provide distractions (food, noise, fun toys), etc.  She always obeys her commands.  I take her running with me sometimes to help her work out and as personal protection (she's a giant so her size itself is a deterrent). She follows the command of anyone who has hold of her lead, even with her owner providing distraction also. 

 

A dog does not have to go in public to be well behaved and trained.

 

(That being said, I do understand the need for training a working service dog to do their job in a grocery store, etc if they are helping retrieve items, etc).

 

GSD   just have to look at someone to intimidate  them.

she was a great dog.

1ds's gf has several GSDs. her dad is a cop, and insists they are VERY well trained.

it's the kleeklai (about the size of a husky puppy) which is the bossy little snotty dog with small dog insecurities.  has to "prove" it's as important as the big dogs..

 

eta: - and this has gotten off topic from *fake* "service dogs" - to training legtimate service dogs. they aren't going into a real grocery store until well into their training- and probably not until they are doing their final training with their "servee".

only a small percent of dogs are legitimate service dogs.  I don't have a problem with them.  I have a problem with pets being taken to stores, restaurants, etc.

Edited November 14, 2017 by gardenmom5

[TravelingChris]

DP

Edited November 14, 2017 by transientChris

[Pawz4me]

That a dog can’t be taught to heel somewhere unless he is there is nonsense. Heel means heel. Not heel here but not there *unless* the trainer or the owner has allowed it to mean one thing at home and another everywhere else.

 

Can you post even one reputable source who says that? Reputable being a certified animal behaviorist (Ph.D.) or a certified veterinary behaviorist.

 

There is a very, very good reason that ALL reputable service dog training organizations take their dogs out and about in public, in different venues, to train. 

 

 

I have a friend with a GSD that is extremely well trained. She doesn't go to public stores, etc but her owner has does extensive work with her.  I've helped provide distractions (food, noise, fun toys), etc.  She always obeys her commands.  I take her running with me sometimes to help her work out and as personal protection (she's a giant so her size itself is a deterrent). She follows the command of anyone who has hold of her lead, even with her owner providing distraction also. 

 

A dog does not have to go in public to be well behaved and trained.

 

(That being said, I do understand the need for training a working service dog to do their job in a grocery store, etc if they are helping retrieve items, etc).

 

I think you're totally missing the point.

 

Nobody ever said a dog has to go out in public to be well trained at home or while jogging with someone. All the dog needs to do is . . be in a home and trained and go out running and be trained. Sounds like your friend has also worked with her dog on distractions in those two environments. And that's great! But that in no way translates to the dog necessarily being so well behaved "in public." You have no idea how the dog would react in a pet store, a grocery store, a hardware store, etc. unless you've seen the dog in one of those. Your friend's dog is well trained for the environments she's in.  Many dogs who never go out of their homes or yards are well trained dogs. In their homes and yards. That doesn't mean they'd be well trained in an unfamiliar environment.

 

My back neighbor has a failed GSD crime/police dog as a pet. He was apparently sailing through the training but flunked out due to car sickness. He seems bright enough from what I can tell (certainly no canine Einstein, but smart enough). I have no doubt they're being truthful about him being a police/crime dog trainee because they give him commands in German (or some similar language). They'e lived in the neighborhood for about six months now and I've never once seen the dog out for a walk. They're one of the neighbors who've told me they can't walk him until they "brush up on his leash work." This was a well trained dog. And yet he's lost a basic skill that I'm sure he was thoroughly taught. I've seen the same thing happen many times in highly trained dogs. Their brains don't work like ours, where a skill we master (like riding a bike) isn't usually forgotten. Dogs' brains  in many ways (not just lack of ability to generalize) don't work like human brains, no matter how many laypeople insist otherwise. Thinking they do is based on the same type of anthropomorphism that gets so many unfortunate dogs punished for doing something "out of spite" or "because he was mad." Dogs' brains don't work like that, either.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Pawz4me

[Elizabeth86]

I can't stand babying grown dogs and pretending they are children. Ugh. Double ugh. Dogs do not belong in strollers or prams.

No I can't either. I have also seen a pot-bellied pig wearing a tu-tu and in a stroller. It seems to me people like that are just screaming for attention. I will admit I thought of my pets as babies before I had kids, ,but I still even then thought pets belong at home.

[TravelingChris]

I don't have a problem with animals in stores; it was common in Europe when I visited there, although it seemed to be mainly dogs.

 

Can you please tell me what country and what year?  Because I am trying to figure out if it is a growing trend there as it is here.  I lived in Belgium from in early to mid 00's and while I saw dogs on public transport and at cafes. etc., I do not remember seeing dogs or other pets in stores except for things like owner's cat, owner's dog.  I do remember that we would eat at times in a tasty restaurant and the owner's very passive Rottweiler would wander and sleep. 

 

[8circles]

No, I do not "know it."

 

The conversation devolved to someone arguing that children are tangibly worse than dogs.

 

Really? You think she was saying that humans train their kids to sit on command and then give them a cookie? If you think you're conversing with morons, why do you bother?

 

And no, the parallels were drawn between training dogs & training children and how people feel about misbehaving dogs & misbehaving children in public. They are not the same but there are similarities. 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t know. What other people think is adorable in their pets, I don’t think is that at all. My dogs do not lick anyone. My dogs do not bark incessantly. My dogs do not jump on anyone or climb into laps. My dogs do not sniff crotches or purses. My dogs do not act “jealous†of any family member. Just no. I hear people talk about how endearing those behaviors are and I don’t get it. That’s not good behavior. That’s really bad training creating an ill-mannered dog. I expect a puppy to act that way and thus I also expect them to be very tightly controled until they are better trained.

 

Maybe I’ve just had the smartest dogs ever. I don’t think so though.

 

Eta: well. My dogs will climb into a lap, but only after being given permission. You have to motion to your lap and say up first. Then they just about lose their mind in joy.

 

This is along the lines of what I was thinking though.

 

There are some things that are more about preference, I guess - licking might be one.  My dh teaches his dogs not to lick, but a lot of people who have well trained dogs don't mind some licking.  Probably most dogs will sniff in the wrong place from time to time even if they generally don't. (I once had a seeing eye dog stick his head up my skirt. )

 

But what I wonder is why we don't have more social cohesion on even pretty significant behaviours?  Like jumping up on people I would have thought would be obviously a problem, and if your dog does it (maybe because he is young, or not very trainable, or it is a really stressful situation) you would limit him in some way to compensate.

 

It seems to me very similar to what I see with kids at times.  I expect not all families are the same.  But I'd also expect that certain things are obviously anti-social, and the parents would keep an eye on the kids that aren't able to control those impulses yet. 

 

In both groups, it seems like some aren't able to see that others don't respond the same way to their kids and pets as they do, or that they are breaking social rules.  Or maybe they know but don't care?  

[Bluegoat]

I am surprised people think you can teach a dog to behave in public venues if you don't take them out.

 

A dog might come or heel perfectly well training in your yard, but walking on a busy street or park with people and cars, or sitting under your feet in a cafe, etc, are all going to be harder.  You start with the easier scenario so there is a good basis of control and behaviour in the new environment, but without practicing in the more difficult one, you aren't going to have a dog that will be reliable and calm.  It will easily get distracted, surprised, scared, overwhelmed.  

 

That doesn't mean they need to go in every place - one waiting room, or cafe, or shop, or public park, is not that different from another.  And if you never plan to take your dog into a cafe it really doesn't matter.

 

Everyone knows that if you want to train horses to ride on a busy road with cars or work in crowds, you have to take them around busy roads, cars, and crowds.  Dogs might not be so skittish, but they are animals.  Though for that matter, people are often skittish in a totally new environment.

 

 

[StartingOver]

My, Navy, son did a tour in 2007 in Afghanistan as a medic. When he came home he so far removed from the boy who joined. Once he got his dog he was so much better. He is an emotional support dog, and he did take him everywhere with him for a while. He stopped looking over his shoulder at any little noise, stopped ducking at loud noises, his anger slowly came under control... I am so grateful for his dog. He does not take him everywhere anymore but I am thankful for the law, even if misused, that allowed him to have his companion with him at all times for those first couple of years. He is off all medications and coping much better now. 

 

Being older and knowing many Vietnam Vets, including many family members, who really struggled for years I am extremely happy that many have used this loophole to heal even a little bit in our time. We are losing so many, daily, that I feel people should just go about their business and leave them be. My son has attended many funerals since he has returned state side. It is beyond sad.

[Element]

To those of you who can't handle/are allergic to dogs, please be aware of the list of places which allow dogs and either avoid them or write to their corporate offices and request a change in policy. (List in link is >3 yrs old and may not still be accurate, but it's a good starting place.) This discussion doesn't affect me much, since my dog is an obsessive crotch-sniffer and therefore only accompanies me to dog-specific places: Dog park, pet store, vet, etc. However, I have been bothered in the past year by people complaining about dogs where dogs are allowed to be (public park, department store which has approved all dogs.) At that point, you should be complaining about the store rather than the dog-owner. Please do check out the list. I was surprised by how many department stores allow pet accompaniment. 

ETA: Dog owners, please know the list as well. My husband works for a large hardware store which does not allow dogs. About once a month, he is yelled at for asking a dog-toting patron to leave. He loves dogs. He didn't invent the policy. You don't have to be rude. If you have a problem with a store's policy, write to their corporate office. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Element

[hornblower]

My, Navy, son did a tour in 2007 in Afghanistan as a medic. When he came home he so far removed from the boy who joined. Once he got his dog he was so much better. He is an emotional support dog, and he did take him everywhere with him for a while. He stopped looking over his shoulder at any little noise, stopped ducking at loud noises, his anger slowly came under control... I am so grateful for his dog. He does not take him everywhere anymore but I am thankful for the law, even if misused, that allowed him to have his companion with him at all times for those first couple of years. He is off all medications and coping much better now. 

 

Being older and knowing many Vietnam Vets, including many family members, who really struggled for years I am extremely happy that many have used this loophole to heal even a little bit in our time. We are losing so many, daily, that I feel people should just go about their business and leave them be. My son has attended many funerals since he has returned state side. It is beyond sad.

Thank you for sharing your story & I'm so glad his dog helped him & he's feeling better now! 

 

For people who haven't seen it, this Dutch commercial for an organization training emotional support dogs for veterans is really powerful. 

 

 

 

I wish we had more official training standards and recognition for emotional support dogs. My objection to the fake ones is partly out of concern for the dogs. I think it takes a very special dog to be able to be a support dog in that way. I have locally seen some dogs who frankly are not cut out for the job and I think are really suffering and are being abused (by the children whose support dog they supposedly are) in addition to being just plain not well taught to do the tasks they're meant to be doing. 

 

I definitely do believe though in the healing power of dogs and the magic of dog-human relationship. I think this is what some people cannot wrap their brains around. It's not 'just a dog' that should live in the home and backyard. It's a creature with which I have a deep relationship of trust and affection and love; and I choose to spend as much time as I can with those that I love. 

[bethben]

My, Navy, son did a tour in 2007 in Afghanistan as a medic. When he came home he so far removed from the boy who joined. Once he got his dog he was so much better. He is an emotional support dog, and he did take him everywhere with him for a while. He stopped looking over his shoulder at any little noise, stopped ducking at loud noises, his anger slowly came under control... I am so grateful for his dog. He does not take him everywhere anymore but I am thankful for the law, even if misused, that allowed him to have his companion with him at all times for those first couple of years. He is off all medications and coping much better now. 

 

 

I've seen videos of emotional support dogs for people with autism also.  My concern is still that the people who truly need these dogs to function in public will be over run by people who just like to have their dogs with them.  I guess I liken this to the Disney disability privilege that was changed because people abused the system.  Our trip to Disney with our disabled son was so great because they had such a great procedure for people in wheelchairs.  They had to change it because so many people abused the privilege.  Now, we won't go back because it's so much more restrictive for us.  Same thing with people just taking their dogs in public spaces because they want to.  I feel like it's selfishness to abuse the privilege of dogs in public for those who really need it.  

[Homebody2]

My, Navy, son did a tour in 2007 in Afghanistan as a medic. When he came home he so far removed from the boy who joined. Once he got his dog he was so much better. He is an emotional support dog, and he did take him everywhere with him for a while. He stopped looking over his shoulder at any little noise, stopped ducking at loud noises, his anger slowly came under control... I am so grateful for his dog. He does not take him everywhere anymore but I am thankful for the law, even if misused, that allowed him to have his companion with him at all times for those first couple of years. He is off all medications and coping much better now.

 

Being older and knowing many Vietnam Vets, including many family members, who really struggled for years I am extremely happy that many have used this loophole to heal even a little bit in our time. We are losing so many, daily, that I feel people should just go about their business and leave them be. My son has attended many funerals since he has returned state side. It is beyond sad.

OK, I'm going of topic, but I had to share this in case anyone is interested in supporting this cause. There is a bill before Congress called the PAWS Act. It's intended to provide more funding so that more vets who suffer from ptsd can receive support dogs. 20 veterans a day commit suicide. This bill won't solve everything, but it does something!

 

https://www.k9sforwarriors.org/blog/paws-act-time-act-now

 

www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/2327/text

[StartingOver]

OK, I'm going of topic, but I had to share this in case anyone is interested in supporting this cause. There is a bill before Congress called the PAWS Act. It's intended to provide more funding so that more vets who suffer from ptsd can receive support dogs. 20 veterans a day commit suicide. This bill won't solve everything, but it does something!

 

https://www.k9sforwarriors.org/blog/paws-act-time-act-now

 

www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/2327/text

 

Will share this link !! Thank you.

[ktgrok]

I think a LOT of the issue is people really don't know how to train their dogs, AND that so many dogs are just not as easily trainable vs the ones in Europe that are most likely from good breeders vs shelter animals that have been through a ton, or poorly bred, etc. In Germany it is hard to get a permit to breed a dog, from my understanding. 

 

A dog that is from a long line of well behaved, easily trained dogs is going to be SO much easier to train than one that has a genetically messed up personality an is hyper or skittish or both. 

 

Add in the culture wars around dog training, and that any idiot can put up a shingle and call themselves a trainer while charging exorbitant fees, and you have a mess. 

 

I have had dogs that were good in public, and dogs that aren't. the ones that aren't I don't take in public :)

 

 

I