Elfknitter.# Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_59df75d5e4b00abf3646c751 Puerto Rico needs consistent, reliable aide. As a U.S. Territory, their citizens are U,S. Citizens. Why is this happening? 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I'd like to answer in a substantive way but it would be too political for this forum. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) And it's been over a month since Irma hit the US Virgin Islands, yet a government responder I know there still is giving his lunch away because the people he sees don't have enough food. He doesn't have time to eat lunch anyway because there is so much work to be done. The people living in the USVI and PR are doing everything they can to survive and rebuild with what they have. How can this be considered a successful response to a disasters suffered by US citizens on US soil? We've had the time, we have the resources, so let's spend the money to do this right. Or at least stop blaming the victims. Edited October 13, 2017 by Amira 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Yeah everything I start for this answer involves something that would be deemed political. Isn't that the issue? Puerto Rico aid is based on politics. Due to politics the culture/ethnicity/language of the island makes them less popular politically than people facing a disaster in another location. I think it's wrong to blame them for significant previous problems. As a colony, there are US laws imposed upon them that are problematic for their economy, but they have no control to change that. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 And it's been over a month since Irma hit the US Virgin Islands, yet a government responder I know there still is giving his lunch away because the people he sees don't have enough food. He doesn't have time to eat lunch anyway because there is so much work to be done. The people living in the USVI and PR are doing everything they can to survive and rebuild with what they have. How can this be considered a successful response to a disasters suffered by US citizens on US soil? We've had the time, we have the resources, so let's spend the money to do this right. Or at least stop blaming the victims. Don't worry; someone will stop by and toss them paper towels. /sarcasm 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Why is this happening? Brown skin and Spanish as a first language. 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 They don't vote in Presidential or Congressional elections, so who are they again? And it's a BIG, BIG OCEAN they're in the middle of. 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 They don't vote in Presidential or Congressional elections, so who are they again? Freeloaders, remember? They aren't getting any help until they pay down their tremendous debts. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 This morning, DH told my daughter about the signs that said to call or email FEMA for assistance. She was aghast and said, "Is that some kind of mean joke?" :( 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It's being suggested that things really are fine in Puerto Rico and news that says otherwise is fake. Thankfully there are actual people in Puerto Rico and we have actual video, first hand reports, etc. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It's being suggested that things really are fine in Puerto Rico and news that says otherwise is fake. Thankfully there are actual people in Puerto Rico and we have actual video, first hand reports, etc. Since when has that ever mattered? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Since when has that ever mattered? It has always mattered for some people. Of course we all wish it mattered for more. We can't go quietly into this world where facts don't matter anymore. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It has always mattered for some people. Of course we all wish it mattered for more. We can't go quietly into this world where facts don't matter anymore.I too can't give my thoughts without being too political Going off on a tangent...We are visiting my oldest at his campus right now. I just bought a tshirt in the campus bookstore that I was surprised to see. It has the school name on it and underneath the name is says"Where facts matter". 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I too can't give my thoughts without being too political Going off on a tangent...We are visiting my oldest at his campus right now. I just bought a tshirt in the campus bookstore that I was surprised to see. It has the school name on it and underneath the name is says"Where facts matter". Each morning, I wake up, pick up my phone to take a peek at the news and think, "Is this real life?" 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It's being suggested that things really are fine in Puerto Rico and news that says otherwise is fake. Thankfully there are actual people in Puerto Rico and we have actual video, first hand reports, etc. It has always mattered for some people. Of course we all wish it mattered for more. We can't go quietly into this world where facts don't matter anymore. Sigh. I have the quote in my signature for a reason. :( 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It is appalling, but it may be less political than some think. Some quick reading on Rockport, TX (where Harvey hit) and we're 7 weeks out from that.... (from daily mayor reports in the right hand side bar: http://www.cityofrockport.com/) ...they just last week felt they had enough stop lights/traffic lights and general street lights working to lift their nighttime curfew ...they had interruption of water service long enough that the 8/14 to 9/15 bill has been waived (which tells me it was interrupted for up to 3 weeks) ...only 30% of businesses have opened back up, now, today, 7 weeks later ...only 36% of debris has been removed/picked up so far, today, 7 weeks later ...only 75% of kids are back in school, and that *just started* this week, 6.5 weeks later (and over a month past when most schools in Houston resumed) (and the middle/high school kids are in temporary buildings) ...they are still relying on multi-agency support for a lot of things ...when I looked at their "3 weeks out" reports I noticed that 95% did have electricity back, and water/sewer service was running but still with a boil water ban in place (so, no drinkable water), and their large grocery (Walmart) was open with limited hours, limited stock, & limited services. http://www.cityofrockport.com/ArchiveCenter/ViewFile/Item/1559 Absolutely still a better picture than what we're seeing in Puerto Rico, but this is a town only 45 mins from Corpus Christi, and only a few hours from Houston, and still recovery is painfully slow. Throw an ocean between them, airports not functioning for a while, infrastructure that was already poor to begin with, and the general difficulties of rebuilding and restocking an island.....compare it to what's still the situation here on the mainland (and remembering that FEMA, etc, is still operating in TX, FL, US Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico, simultaneously).....yes, it's bad, and I'm not discounting that. Just saying it may be less "politics are holding up recovery" and a little more "recovery from a hurricane takes a lot of time, especially on an island, especially when starting with poor conditions prior." 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I acknowledge your points, Reader, but then again no one is threatening to cut off aid to Texas. 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I acknowledge your points, Reader, but then again no one is threatening to cut off aid to Texas. oh, wow...I missed that. That was not mentioned in the linked article, and I didn't see yesterday's news at all; I just looked that up. Unbelievable. You are very correct, it's beyond appalling. I was only responding to the conditions outlined in the article linked in the OP, not realizing that most of the comments that followed were based on that information paired with more recent news. I apologize for my oversight. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Absolutely still a better picture than what we're seeing in Puerto Rico, but this is a town only 45 mins from Corpus Christi, and only a few hours from Houston, and still recovery is painfully slow. Throw an ocean between them, airports not functioning for a while, infrastructure that was already poor to begin with, and the general difficulties of rebuilding and restocking an island.....compare it to what's still the situation here on the mainland (and remembering that FEMA, etc, is still operating in TX, FL, US Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico, simultaneously).....yes, it's bad, and I'm not discounting that. Just saying it may be less "politics are holding up recovery" and a little more "recovery from a hurricane takes a lot of time, especially on an island, especially when starting with poor conditions prior." I acknowledge your points, Reader, but then again no one is threatening to cut off aid to Texas. The logistics are definitely more complex, which is all the more reason to "work harder" on it. Dh works mostly on what might be considered non-essential services. (Not food, water, electricity, etc.) But they're in industries that employ people and restore normal business/activity. His project in Florida is estimated to run 6 months. His company's other projects in Texas and Florida have similar timelines. They can't get *started* on any of the islands from any of the storms until essential resources are in place. The longer they sit, the more the physical damage increases, and restoration gets either more difficult, longer to do, and therefore expensive, if not impossible. When we talk about people getting back to work/school/etc. we have to think about the buildings we imagine them going back to and what the structural and health conditions of those buildings are. Tourism, for example. Who's booking a stay in a resort that hasn't yet been remediated? From NPR: "We have 345,000 students and 1,113 schools. Last week, we opened 22. This week we're opening another 145. And then, I've identified 227 that, when we remove the debris, we can open" How many are structurally unsound and/or growing mold as we speak? Who would feel safe sending their kids if water and electricity get restored tomorrow? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 The logistics are definitely more complex, which is all the more reason to "work harder" on it. Dh works mostly on what might be considered non-essential services. (Not food, water, electricity, etc.) But they're in industries that employ people and restore normal business/activity. His project in Florida is estimated to run 6 months. His company's other projects in Texas and Florida have similar timelines. They can't get *started* on any of the islands from any of the storms until essential resources are in place. The longer they sit, the more the physical damage increases, and restoration gets either more difficult, longer to do, and therefore expensive, if not impossible. When we talk about people getting back to work/school/etc. we have to think about the buildings we imagine them going back to and what the structural and health conditions of those buildings are. Tourism, for example. Who's booking a stay in a resort that hasn't yet been remediated? From NPR: "We have 345,000 students and 1,113 schools. Last week, we opened 22. This week we're opening another 145. And then, I've identified 227 that, when we remove the debris, we can open" How many are structurally unsound and/or growing mold as we speak? Who would feel safe sending their kids if water and electricity get restored tomorrow? Right; and even in TX, the kids are not returning to the damaged school buildings, they're sharing schools in neighboring districts, with some going in the morning & some in the afternoon, or they're in temporary buildings set up by FEMA and such. Rockport, TX is operating out of portable buildings. It's a big, big problem and I definitely agree, we need to be working even harder for our citizens in Puerto Rico as we are for our citizens in TX & FL. As I said, I wasn't aware when I posted that there'd been mention of cutting off gov't resources to PR. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I did hear from one of my friends who lives in Puerto Rico. He also does work in the Dominican Republic, so he is there now. I assume his wife and DC are there with him. He wrote me (last Sunday?) on LinkedIn that only 10% of the island has electric power, which is what I had seen in the news. There has always been astonishing corruption in Puerto Rico. Probably a lot of the $72 billion in Debt, which Trump indicated a few days ago will need to be wiped out (too bad Wall Street...) is due to that corruption. And then there is the 40 or 50 billion in Pension fund shortages. Possibly some of that is due to corruption too. To get back to the topic, the U.S. Government has between 15 and 20 thousand people on Puerto Rico now, trying to help. Military, FEMA, etc. They have moved huge numbers of containers onto the island and are making progress. They cannot stay on Puerto Rico forever. They have brought in temporary power generating facilities and are going to try to restore more cell service via one or more balloons, which the FCC has approved.. The FBI in Puerto Rico is investigating numerous reports of Mayors stealing things FEMA has sent in, instead of distributing the aid to their constituents. My understanding is that in the Unincorporated Territories (Puerto RIco, Guam, American Samoa, Northern Mariana Islands, etc.) the coverage of the U.S. Constitution is different than it is in the 50 states and DC, but hopefully, if people are stealing FEMA aid, for their own benefit, they can and will be punished, severely. It is extremely sad, when you think about what it is like for us, on the extremely rare occasions we are without power for a few hours, to wonder how people are living without electricity and possibly without potable water. And for weeks... And possibly for weeks and months more... That's why the friend I heard from on LinkedIn went to the Dominican Republic temporarily. I hope his wife and his DC are with him in the Dominican Republic and are not suffering in PR. Very sad situation and it will take a very long time to install a new infrastructure for electrical power, etc. I wonder about other people I know on PR and haven't heard from yet. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It's being suggested that things really are fine in Puerto Rico and news that says otherwise is fake. Thankfully there are actual people in Puerto Rico and we have actual video, first hand reports, etc. Fox News Channel sent Geraldo Rivera to Puerto Rico. I cannot remember whether he was born in NYC or in PR, but he has a very large family in PR. Nothing I saw on Fox News, from him or any other of their reporters, indicated that things are fine in PR. Things in PR are terrible. He walked in on one of his Aunts and she explained what it's like. He then said, multiply her by tens of thousands of families, who are suffering the same things. He explained the situation of his Aunt and others to Trump. If anyone says that things in Puerto Rico are fine today, they are either insane or totally without any knowledge of the situation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It think it's entirely possible this story will be a success in the long run if the US is willing to commit the necessary resources to make that happen and also pass some long overdue legislation regarding US territories in general and Puerto Rico specifically. I hope we will. But it's *not* a success story right now and that isn't only the fault of the Puerto Rican government. It's definitely not the fault of Puerto Ricans as a whole or the people responding on the ground. It's also not entirely the fault of anyone in Washington. But for *anyone* in Washington to be talking about pulling aid from Puerto Rico when things are still so terrible, and when so much money is being spent in other parts of the US on the very same things, is unconscionable. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 You might want to check news sources other than Fox News. Also, Trump may have said that debt would need to be wiped out, but, as usual, he was flapping his gums with whatever he pulled out of his butt. Very quickly clarification was made that that would NOT happen. And the state of a state/territory's debt does not make a difference in whether the state/territory gets help in a disaster. Or at least it shouldn't. Texas has a very high debt level (even when factored based on population), but Trump says he'll be with us forever and never mentioned the state's debt. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) Charming... SMH...TheSe are the reasons we can't talk about politics in the boards. Really, I don't give a crap about the corruption in PR, or whose fault it is, or what the asses at Fox News are saying. I know FEMA will not be there "forever". But Lanny-- there is no way on earth a president would say "sorry, Texas, you were in a really shitty shape before the hurricane. Just a heads up, we won't be there to help you forever!" As I heard today, as long as Puerto Ricans are American citizens, as long as they are serving in our armed forces and are on our war monuments to the dead, then NO ONE needs to flap their fat lips and make disparaging, intimidating, blame full comments. You might want to check news sources other than Fox News. Also, Trump may have said that debt would need to be wiped out, but, as usual, he was flapping his gums with whatever he pulled out of his butt. Very quickly clarification was made that that would NOT happen. And the state of a state/territory's debt does not make a difference in whether the state/territory gets help in a disaster. Or at least it shouldn't. Texas has a very high debt level (even when factored based on population), but Trump says he'll be with us forever and never mentioned the state's debt. Edited October 13, 2017 by unsinkable 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Thanks! What part of what I said do you disagree with, Unsinkable? Is it PR's citizens fault that they still have no water or electric? How much debt does TX or Florida owe? What does the debt have to do with restoring the island? I agree that compassion is the default setting of 99 percent of the world's population in response to a tragedy on this level, would you agree? Have you seen the same compassion in his tweets about PR versus those to TX and FL? What's different, except perhaps the number of electoral votes of each one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 The Pentagon and FEMA accidentally included a reporter on their email chain about how to "spin" the Puerto Rico recovery effort. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-13/how-the-pentagon-spun-hurricane-maria?utm_source=WTF+Just+Happened+Today%3F&utm_campaign=0680bec64f-Day_267_Imploding_broken_mess_10_13_2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9813b73b1a-0680bec64f-158708701 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Really, I don't give a crap about the corruption in PR, or whose fault it is, or what the asses at Fox News are saying. I know FEMA will not be there "forever". But Lanny-- there is no way on earth a president would say "sorry, Texas, you were in a really shitty shape before the hurricane. Just a heads up, we won't be there to help you forever!" As I heard today, as long as Puerto Ricans are American citizens, as long as they are serving in our armed forces and are on our war monuments to the dead, then NO ONE needs to flap their fat lips and make disparaging, intimidating, blame full comments. Respectfully... Someone upthread had posted that some news outlets are saying that things in PR are fine. Fox News Channel is certainly NOT saying anything in PR is fine. They are doing everything they can to try to get more aid for PR. You might want to find out which news outlets are saying that things are fine in PR. I suggest to you that they are the "asses" you mentioned in your post. That's "Fake News". 180 degrees from the truth. Trump has indicated the Debt PR has will need to be written off by the Debt Holders. There is no way they could repay that debt before the Hurricanes, and now, post-Hurricanes, their plight is much worse. I agree with him. The U.S. cannot have the number of U.S. Military and FEMA people and other U.S. assets on PR indefinitely. The PR government and the Mayors of the different municipalities must do a lot of the work, with guidance from Washington DC. This is going to be a years long issue. Not weeks. Not months. Years long... The corruption in PR is a huge thing and somehow they need to find a way to get the help to the people who most need help, without a large percentage of it being stolen, etc. The idea is to help the people who most need it, not enrich corrupt people who steal aid that has been given in good faith. Very difficult and very complicated... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 How much debt does TX or Florida owe? As of 2015 according to the Census Bureau: TX - $48,237,511,000 which is $1759 per capita FL - $33,315,277,000 which is $1646 per capita. State debt per capita ranged from $914 (TN) to $11,100 (MA). PR's debt (currently) is a bit over $21,000 per capita. Clearly, Puerto Rico is in rough shape financially. But that means nothing to starving, thirsty people who are getting increasingly anxious over the state of the island. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I acknowledge what many of you are saying, but I also have to wonder if it is partially about the order of things and just disaster fatigue/ resources. If Puerto Rico had happened first, then I think we would have seen a great outpouring of relief. However, many people/churches had already given resources to Harvey. Then Puerto Rico and Florida happened about the same time. Now we have the horrible devastating fires. My husband is in a Central American country right now and will be again in a couple of weeks helping the poor. We have established relationships there to help the poor. We had no relationships in Puerto Rico, though I think we may have found one now. We are praying about how we can best help. But there has to be somewhat minimum services before we go, otherwise we are a drain on the resources. But where do people put their resources: South Texas, Florida, the fires, Puerto Rico? There is so, so much hurting. It is so much easier for us to help in South Texas. We have connections. So as people, I think we are overwhelmed with need. I do believe that is part of why relief efforts are taking so long. And that's why pilling blame at the victims of a disaster is so cruel. They are suffering. They are the only ones hearing, "you got yourselves into this mess." Not Florida, or California or Texas--just Puerto Rico. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I do not blame people who are suffering . They are victims. I pray for them. I believe the blame goes to the Territorial government on PR and to many of the Municipal governments there. The corrupt Mayors. I do not see how the USA can keep approximately 15K Military personnel on PR, and thousands of FEMA and other personnel there, for years. "Prejudices against people"? I have friends in PR. I live in Colombia. I am not prejudiced against Hispanic people. My wife and my DD are Hispanic. However, I am opposed to the rampant corruption in PR and apparently now, some of the humanitarian aid that has been distributed is being stolen by some of the Mayors of different Municipalities. The FBI in PR is investigating reports of that. The issues on PR as massive. For example, the power infrastructure was very bad before the Hurricanes. They will need to decide whether to fix/replace what is damaged, or to install something newer. In either event, probably once they know what they need to order, it will need to be Custom Ordered, from a company in China, built to specifications in China, and then shipped to PR. That's one tiny example. There are tens of thousands of containers with Humanitarian Aid that are in the Port of San Juan in the parking area. Hopefully, that aid will be distributed and used properly, and not stolen or distributed only to the followers of certain politicians (Mayors) in PR. Here in Colombia, we have lots of corruption, but many people, some of them extremely important, have gone to prison, and with time that is decreasing. You can Google for most corrupt U.S. States and it would be interesting to know, if PR was a State, where it would fall on that scale of corruption. My belief is that PR would rank very high on that list. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) I do not blame people who are suffering . They are victims. I pray for them. I believe the blame goes to the Territorial government on PR and to many of the Municipal governments there. The corrupt Mayors. I do not see how the USA can keep approximately 15K Military personnel on PR, and thousands of FEMA and other personnel there, for years. "Prejudices against people"? I have friends in PR. I live in Colombia. I am not prejudiced against Hispanic people. My wife and my DD are Hispanic. However, I am opposed to the rampant corruption in PR and apparently now, some of the humanitarian aid that has been distributed is being stolen by some of the Mayors of different Municipalities. The FBI in PR is investigating reports of that. The issues on PR as massive. For example, the power infrastructure was very bad before the Hurricanes. They will need to decide whether to fix/replace what is damaged, or to install something newer. In either event, probably once they know what they need to order, it will need to be Custom Ordered, from a company in China, built to specifications in China, and then shipped to PR. That's one tiny example. There are tens of thousands of containers with Humanitarian Aid that are in the Port of San Juan in the parking area. Hopefully, that aid will be distributed and used properly, and not stolen or distributed only to the followers of certain politicians (Mayors) in PR. Here in Colombia, we have lots of corruption, but many people, some of them extremely important, have gone to prison, and with time that is decreasing. You can Google for most corrupt U.S. States and it would be interesting to know, if PR was a State, where it would fall on that scale of corruption. My belief is that PR would rank very high on that list. There are a lot of "hopefullys" and "I believes" and "interesting to knows" in this post. Lanny I think living in Colombia may be skewing what you're willing to believe regarding Puerto Rico. You're viewing the island through the lens of corruption you're living with over there but it doesn't sound like you have first hand knowledge. Our president is to blame for pointing the finger at Puerto Rican's. He hasn't told Texas or Florida that, "yknow we can't just keep helping you people forever." And "you know you guys got yourselves into this mess and you don't even tell me thanks for digging your sorry butts out" I'm paraphrasing. Edited October 14, 2017 by Barb_ 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I just wish you wouldn't link all of us with the president..... You make it sound like all of us think that way. I do not. Yes, our president is a jerk. I didn't vote for him. I can't help what he tweets. All I can do is try to help at least some... He is blaming, but I do not see the nation as a whole blaming. He is only one man. No the nation as a whole is not blaming, but he is more than one man--he tells a whole subset of people what to think and how to react. I'm sorry if anyone has given you the impression that you've been lumped in with that. There is room for discussion about logistics and money and the multiple disasters we're facing, but he continually poisons the well and ensures we can't talk to one another. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I do, however believe that even a whiff of taking about the corruption of the government or the money "they owe us" is in poor taste and is in the spirit of piling on when people are destitute. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 So basically this is a thread to vent about the president and not talk about the issue. Pretty sure it will get locked. No, I expanded in my next post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selkie Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I do, however believe that even a whiff of taking about the corruption of the government or the money "they owe us" is in poor taste and is in the spirit of piling on when people are destitute. Why is it in poor taste to talk about corrupt people in power stealing FEMA supplies that were sent to Puerto Rico? Isn't that something that should be talked about? I don't understand your reasoning. If it is happening (and I have read that is and that the FBI is investigating), something needs to be done about it. If we can't even talk about it, then that just leads to more suffering. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwalker Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Thanks! What part of what I said do you disagree with, Unsinkable? Is it PR's citizens fault that they still have no water or electric? How much debt does TX or Florida owe? What does the debt have to do with restoring the island? I agree that compassion is the default setting of 99 percent of the world's population in response to a tragedy on this level, would you agree? Have you seen the same compassion in his tweets about PR versus those to TX and FL? What's different, except perhaps the number of electoral votes of each one. There were pre-existing issues with PR's infastructure and power grid. They can't be compared with Florida's or Texas's. In addition, getting supplies to an island is not as easy as trucking. Cutting off funding cannot happen of course, but it is a long, long fix. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/puerto-ricos-power-struggles-predate-hurricane-maria/ ..."SREENIVASAN: One of the things that was startling from the report is there is really not a steady stream of revenue. Not everybody pays their power bills. RESNICK-AULT: Right. Even the government has not paid its own power bills. There are up to $700 million in uncollected bills from government agencies. SREENIVASAN: I’ve heard that some of the tech companies are trying to start helping. I mean, we saw kind of a Twitter conversation roll out between Elon Musk and the governor yesterday, saying perhaps solar and batteries can be part of your solution, if you’re rethinking this thing from scratch. RESNICK-AULT: But even before the storm, there had been discussions about solar and renewables. They even made it to the Department of Energy level with Puerto Rican officials meting with the DOE. But those conversations have never materialized in real change in Puerto Rico’s grid because PREPA and its board have such control over the island’s electricity grilled and have been resistant to change that would bring in new utilities. SREENIVASAN: So, where do you start building and where do you start fixing the infrastructure? I mean, what do the Army Corps of Engineers and what do other forces do? Do you start with, say, the key places, like the hospitals and kind of crucial infrastructure, the power and water? RESNICK-AULT: So, they have a list of priorities and they’ll start with critical infrastructure, like hospitals, police stations, and go from there. They’re very focused on making sure that any infrastructure that has to do with fuel is restored. So as long as people are relying upon diesel generators, they need to make sure that stations that provide diesel are functioning and accessible. SREENIVASAN: All right. This is going to be a long, long recovery. ..." _--------------------- http://www.npr.org/2017/10/11/557051712/repairing-puerto-ricos-power-grid-could-top-5-billion ..."Lengthy service interruptions and the second-highest rates in the U.S. after Hawaii were long the norm for Puerto Rico's energy users even before Maria did major damage to the island's grid. The power authority here is bankrupt and $9 billion in debt. Unable to pay upfront for equipment and manpower, the company's cash crisis exacerbated its slow response after the storm. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has since stepped in to make the repairs. Colonel James DeLapp says everything from manpower to equipment has to come in on planes and ships...." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwalker Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 There are a lot of "hopefullys" and "I believes" and "interesting to knows" in this post. Lanny I think living in Colombia may be skewing what you're willing to believe regarding Puerto Rico. You're viewing the island through the lens of corruption you're living with over there but it doesn't sound like you have first hand knowledge. Our president is to blame for pointing the finger at Puerto Rican's. He hasn't told Texas or Florida that, "yknow we can't just keep helping you people forever." And "you know you guys got yourselves into this mess and you don't even tell me thanks for digging your sorry butts out" I'm paraphrasing. "Paraphrasing" is one way to say "making stuff up." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Yes. My whole point is that we have people in an administration, and many of its supporters, making comments that very much appear to be blaming people who are suffering. That's it. After 3 weeks. FEMA and other agencies spent years in Louisiana, and TX and FL are still getting help, without anyone admonishing them. Of course, we did have many blaming the people of New Orleans for not saving themselves during Katrina. Quite a few right here on this board, too, in fact. Personally, it's just more of the same prejudices against people. The only other area that got such a response after a disaster seems to be the Northeast after Sandy. Although it didn't come from the president (who was not Trump), many legislators, including those from disaster states like Texas, voted against help for Sandy victims. Their reasons excuses for voting against it were pathetic. "Paraphrasing" is one way to say "making stuff up." No, it isn't. Barb's paraphrasing kept the gist of what the POTUS said. If you disagree with her paraphrasing all you have to do is look at his actual words from his early morning tweets. The White House fixers tried to back up and make it sound better, but the fact remains that he didn't mention these things when talking about Texas, Florida, or even more recently, California. He didn't blame the people of those states for their problems and he didn't say we can't stay there forever. In fact, when he visited my state of Florida he assured residents he'd to whatever it takes. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/10/12/trump-warns-puerto-rico-we-cannot-keep-fema-the-military-the-first-responders-forever/?utm_term=.a65023ad9977 https://www.ft.com/content/215bd84a-af63-11e7-beba-5521c713abf4 http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-tweets/index.html Barb's paraphrasing was spot on. Edited October 14, 2017 by Lady Florida. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwalker Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 The only other area that got such a response after a disaster seems to be the Northeast after Sandy. Although it didn't come from the president (who was not Trump), many legislators, including those from disaster states like Texas, voted against help for Sandy victims. Their reasons excuses for voting against it were pathetic. No, it isn't. Barb's paraphrasing kept the gist of what the POTUS said. If you disagree with her paraphrasing all you have to do is look at his actual words from his early morning tweets. The White House fixers tried to back up and make it sound better, but the fact remains that he didn't mention these things when talking about Texas, Florida, or even more recently, California. He didn't blame the people of those states for their problems and he didn't say we can't stay there forever. In fact, when he visited my state of Florida he assured residents he'd to whatever it takes. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/10/12/trump-warns-puerto-rico-we-cannot-keep-fema-the-military-the-first-responders-forever/?utm_term=.a65023ad9977 https://www.ft.com/content/215bd84a-af63-11e7-beba-5521c713abf4 http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-tweets/index.html Barb's paraphrasing was spot on. President who "was not Trump" [emoji23] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 President who "was not Trump" [emoji23] My intent with that was we are discussing what a president said and I was pointing out what Congress did. I didn't want anyone to think I was including Trump in with that situation, as if I thought he was involved in that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I don't care which area (Texas, FLorida,, Puerto rico, or now CA with fires ) is having corruption and people stealing FEMA supplies. That is outrageous and should be dealt with very strong punishments., I have learned to disregard Trump's tweets and see what actually is happening. One thing I really like that he did in contrast to my local Rep. Congressman who I dislike intensely and think is a jerk and yes, I am supporting a primary challenger, is that he put through the compromise with the Democrats that gave more funding to FEMA and made sure the government wasn't shut down in the midst of these natural disasters. I don't think you will find too many people on this board who think Trump's tweets are good. My dh understands them a lot better than I do since he grew up in northern NJ and was very used to the blustering inprecise no gentile type of talk and I grew up in DC area and was used to politician talk and government officials talk. Trump is not a good speaker. He says and tweets many things I disagree with. But I have to say that FEMA seems to be working better now than it has in the past and I am grateful. As to people who were and are still gung-ho for Trump, I think many conservative and long standing Republicans were originally backing other candidates and it was the people who aren't all that educated and up on the issues who were Trump supporters from the get go. My entire family and every friend that I have was not and isn't a Trump supporter like the gung ho people he has supporting him. I watched person I wanted to win the nomination after person get dropped. Basically I preferred just about every other candidate to Trump and whether I voted for him or not, made no difference at all in my state. Just like it won't make any difference when I don't vote in the Dec election here for Senator. But I am pleased with most of his cabinet and overall the actual work that is being done is somewhat pleasing. All of it- no. But life isn't perfect for me or anyone else. I do want us to help Puerto Rico as it is part of our country and VI too and Texas and Florida and CA. But these will be long recoveries and as clarified by the FEMA director, they will be there for the long haul as they were in Katrina. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 There are a lot of "hopefullys" and "I believes" and "interesting to knows" in this post. Lanny I think living in Colombia may be skewing what you're willing to believe regarding Puerto Rico. You're viewing the island through the lens of corruption you're living with over there but it doesn't sound like you have first hand knowledge. Our president is to blame for pointing the finger at Puerto Rican's. He hasn't told Texas or Florida that, "yknow we can't just keep helping you people forever." And "you know you guys got yourselves into this mess and you don't even tell me thanks for digging your sorry butts out" I'm paraphrasing. Barb_ This question is for you. What do you think the U.S. Government could and should have done, additionally, for Puerto Rico, following the 2 recent Hurricanes, that was not done? What additional Humanitarian Aid was not sent to PR that could have been sent to PR? What kind of Federal Personnel, military or civilian, were not sent to PR that could have been sent to PR, in addition to those who were sent? If you were in charge, what would you have done differently? The one thing I know of that they would have done differently, is at the outset, they did not realize the need to send in Truck Drivers, to move the approximately 10,000 containers that were sitting in the parking area of the Port of San Juan, with Humanitarian Aid. In retrospect, many things are "20-20 hindsight", that are very unclear at the outset, or probably missed in the planning, like the need for Truck Drivers. I pray for the victims of all of the recent disasters. They are victims. They need help. They are probably getting that help as fast as it is humanly possibly to deliver the help. Things are far from perfect. In PR, things are horrible and that will probably be the case, for a long time, because of the massive destruction to the infrastructure. Very sad situation in PR. One of my friends in PR also has clients in the Dominican Republic and he is there now. Hopefully his wife and children are with him. Most people on PR do not have the options he does. The people of PR are suffering, tremendously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 A woman in our church has had 2 relatives die of DEHYDRATION. This is beyond unacceptable, but I feel totally helpless. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 A woman in our church has had 2 relatives die of DEHYDRATION. This is beyond unacceptable, but I feel totally helpless. I am assuming they were in PR? That is tragic. The USNS Comfort is there. http://wavy.com/2017/10/11/8-in-critical-condition-aboard-usns-comfort-in-puerto-rico/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) I am assuming they were in PR? That is tragic. The USNS Comfort is there. http://wavy.com/2017/10/11/8-in-critical-condition-aboard-usns-comfort-in-puerto-rico/ It's not enough. It is simply not enough. The USNS comfort should have been deployed within the first 72 hrs after the hurricane. The navy/Air Force should have had ships/planes ready to airlift supplies with 48 hrs. They should have been Pre-positioned. They weren't. This situation was predictable and the advanced preparation was sorely lacking. No matter how much is being/has been done, it is not enough. Still. The excuses are getting old. Edited October 14, 2017 by Sneezyone 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I have no idea if there was corruption interfering with the relief efforts, but if there was, then the next question on my mind is, is there more or less than usually happens after disasters? Pointing out corruption when it is occurring among some groups of people and not others makes me bristle and wonder why it is being pointed out here and not there, KWIM? Any corruption is wrong, and I am certainly not in favor of sweeping any under the rug. I doubt anyone in this conversation is. However, there is a whole undercurrent of ugliness towards certain groups in our country that has been played up lately, and emphasizing corruption among some situations/minorities and not others would be par for the course right now. Of course, not everyone mentioning possible corruption is playing on racial animosity, but some are purposefully, and some are unwittingly, and some just want to denounce corruption. It's a complicated situation made even more so by the deliberate race baiting of our current time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) https://vid.me/vToxh Maddow reporting on HHS Spa Days on taxpayers' time and lack of organization/logistics. Edited October 14, 2017 by Sneezyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwalker Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 It's not enough. It is simply not enough. The USNS comfort should have been deployed within the first 72 hrs after the hurricane. The navy/Air Force should have had ships/planes ready to airlift supplies with 48 hrs. They should have been Pre-positioned. They weren't. This situation was predictable and the advanced preparation was sorely lacking. No matter how much is being/has been done, it is not enough. Still. The excuses are getting old.There was nowhere on PR for the planes to land in the first few days. They got supplies there, they just sat at the ports because the roads were impassable and there were few trucks or drivers in any case. Texas and Florida were huge issues. Fema has worked incredibly well in Florida. We were without power for only a few days and had no damage beyond a bunch of oak limbs and palm fronds down. Friends who lost a freezer full of food applied to fema, and the money was in their account less than 48 hours later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 There was nowhere on PR for the planes to land in the first few days. They got supplies there, they just sat at the ports because the roads were impassable and there were few trucks or drivers in any case. Texas and Florida were huge issues. Fema has worked incredibly well in Florida. We were without power for only a few days and had no damage beyond a bunch of oak limbs and palm fronds down. Friends who lost a freezer full of food applied to fema, and the money was in their account less than 48 hours later. you can fly helos and drop supplies pretty easily from a ship. Next excuse? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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