JAWM Dealing with Stupid/ intentionally obtuse people

[Χά�ων]

Arrrggg!!

 

And I cannot figure out if they are just stupid or if they are being dense on purpose.

 

 

 

People who can read but choose not to.

 

People who ask information to be emailed and then replay with questions that can be amswered by clicking the link that was included with instruction to click on the link for more information.

 

Ask questions that have no relevance to the topic at hand and are clearly not paying attention.

 

Get pissy when they are called to task for any of the above behaviors.

[Χά�ων]

Adding in that I am talking about middle aged adults, not youths.

[Harriet Vane]

:grouphug:

[regentrude]

You must have been teaching my class.

 

ETA: To clarify for fairness' sake: I'm not talking about the majority of my students. Just some of them. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by regentrude

[Wheres Toto]

I realized a long time ago that people do NOT read the information you send them.  They will ask questions that would be answered if they just read the one paragraph of information they already have access to.

 

I also have realized that a large number of people that have the computer skills to post all over Facebook, including in groups, evidently do not have the ability to Google.

[regentrude]

And I think people who do this are neither stupid nor obtuse on purpose - they are just lazy. It's so much easier for them to ask you a hundred questions than to bother reading the text.

[unsinkable]

And I think people who do this are neither stupid nor obtuse on purpose - they are just lazy. It's so much easier for them to ask you a hundred questions than to bother reading the text.

Or they process information differently...

 

Some people need to speak or reiterate in order to comprehend or soldify information.

[TravelingChris]

I absolutely hate to go to meetings where material is given out beforehand and then the same material is spoken again in the meeting but leaving no time to ask pertinent questions that are not addressed in the material.  I had to beomce very assertive and just interrupt at one meeting I attended last year where it was an orientation for workers at a retreat.  While there were some people there who were repeat staff and recently repeat staff, there were quite a number of us who were newbies or people who had been on staff many years ago or on staff in some other area of the country where things may have been done differently.  My philosophy is if I, who read very well and am very well informed in general, have a confusion about something, almost certainly there are others there who do too.  But I do not ask questions that are clearly answered in a document that we could look at in advance.

[regentrude]

Or they process information differently...

Some people need to speak or reiterate in order to comprehend or soldify information.

 

Then they need to find a way to compensate for this without asking the organizer to repeat the information again in writing. They are adults. They should have developed coping strategies.

It is not feasible to expect a person in charge of an activity for a large group to reiterate all information individually. It is reasonable to expect adults to be able to read and comprehend - unless specifically working with a low literacy population.

Edited September 18, 2017 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

Luckily if you already sent out a detailed note, you can just resend it with the key point bolded. 

Something you might consider is whether your note is super long, though.

I have an acquaintance who steadfastly refers people to her 5 pages of closely typed instructions for staffing a very simple snack shack for a movie night that is not available in advance but is sitting on a kitchen counter for reference.  If she at least divided it with headings, it wouldn't be so onerous, but really, hunting through 5 pages of close type for how to make popcorn 'the right way' 'in the moment' is a bit much.

[catz]

:lol:   ROFL.  I cannot tell you how many e-mails I've sent in the past 2 weeks due to issues like this.  I just want to send

 

HELLO GENIUS - READ THE ORIGINAL E-MAIL

 

I spend WAY too much time writing "business" e-mails that are clear and concise and have important info in bold and links that are on separate lines, bulleted lists for multiple points etc.  I just don't get it. 

 

I do agree some people are WAY too wordy and long for simple things.  Like someone from a homeschool group sent a 3 page diatribe about clean up last week.  I can guarantee no one will read that.  And even if kids read it and/or their parents tell them, they are still going to need 8000 reminders to their face. 

[fairfarmhand]

Bullet points are an amazing way to help with this.

 

With my teens, I try to bullet point everything, with additional details below each point. BUT...

 

YES there are the lazy people who don't bother to read past the first sentence. I try to avoid working with those people. It does make you want to respond to their messages as HELLO DING DONG....DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ?

 

I also despise leaders who rehash everything that was sent out in an email and/or on a printed handout. Meetings can be SO streamlined by a well-designed handout. But, that requires leaders to have their stuff together and planned ahead of time. And I'm convinced that the people who are so good at hands on people interaction are not necessarily the best at administrative stuff. When that's the case, please admit it and ask for help. In most groups, there's almost ALWAYS an administrative type who cringes about this kind of stuff and would LOVE to help in this regard.

[GinaPagnato]

Hmmmm, is this with regard to the party you're hosting? Are these people your DH's relatives?

 

If I'm remembering your post correctly, I can imagine why you're so frustrated. Yes, it's annoying to have to repeat yourself or refer to the information you've just provided...but if it's for people who you don't even *like* or want to see, it's got to be 10X worse!

 

:grouphug:

[Bootsie]

I recently emailed the director of HR at a former employer (university) because I had received a call that there were changes to the retirement plan, but I had received no information.  She calls me and says that she is responding to my email.  She says she will email me the information.  Then asks, "Can I have your email address?"    That is not the first time I have had interactions like this with her... 

[Starr]

This was true when letters were sent. "Please send document A , dated after X" never happened. I keep advising my dc to edit, bullet point, make it clear and simple and still it seems emails are not read carefully.

[poppy]

It's just an incredibly self-centered way of looking at the world.  Their time is too valuable to take the time to read.  They don't care about the value of YOUR time.  When people do this to me, it shows me that to them I exist only to serve their needs.

 

I do have an aunt who I think has truly slow processing speed who I have to communicate differently with.   I never, ever mind if it's that's the  issue .  But "too lazy to search my inbox for your email, so I'll have you re-do your work again" is treating a person like a servant, not a peer.

[unsinkable]

Then they need to find a way to compensate for this without asking the organizer to repeat the information again in writing. They are adults. They should have developed coping strategies.

It is not feasible to expect a person in charge of an activity for a large group to reiterate all information individually. It is reasonable to expect adults to be able to read and comprehend - unless specifically working with a low literacy population.

I know that's how you feel and bunches of others on the board, too.

 

I'm just glad not everyone does.

[regentrude]

I know that's how you feel and bunches of others on the board, too.

I'm just glad not everyone does.

 

So how do you suggest communication should be handled when information has to be disseminated from one individual to large numbers of people? 

Edited September 18, 2017 by regentrude

[fairfarmhand]

And I do see a humble " I am so sorry, that email is lost, I've searched my files, and I hate to ask you, but would it be too much trouble to re-send it." As an entirely different matter.

[regentrude]

For my class, I write up my information as concisely as possible.

I email everybody a link to this information at the beginning of the semester.

I even make a video where I am narrating the important information.

I include a link to this video in my email.

 

That does not seem to suffice.

Just today, I had a conversation  with a student who never realized that there are online lecture videos he needs to watch. It's the fifth week of classes.  :banghead:

 

 

[brehon]

I *completely* agree with you. Drives me BSC!

 

Y'all have read the "Read the Syllabus" entry on the Rate Your Student blog which has been linked several times on the High school and College Boards, right? The business/group equivalent is "Read the #%^*+ Email".

[Soror]

Preach it! This is my world right now.

 

I repeat myself.

 

I use ALL CAPS.

 

I put things in writing in multiple places.'

 

I repeat it verbally, with emphasis on the important points. 

 

Yet, people ask me questions I've already answered. Try to bypass guidelines I've set and then just flat out seem to ignore them. 

 

I'm holding fast to what I've said either it matters enough for people to get it right or they don't participate. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by soror

[scholastica]

Or they process information differently...

 

Some people need to speak or reiterate in order to comprehend or soldify information.

 I think you two are talking about different things. Unsinkable, I take this to mean that effort was put forth in reading and understanding the original information as delivered, but it helps this person to hear it and/or speak it to fully understand it.

 

I think Regentrude is referring to people who either just skim, or don't read at all, the information disseminated to them. They just ask questions that were addressed in the original information, and make everyone else sit through the information again, including the person who sent it.

Edited September 18, 2017 by scholastica

[Laura Corin]

You must have been teaching my class.

How do I choose my modules?

You sign into your account.

What next?

You click on 'Modules'

What next?

You click on 'Choose my modules'

What modules do I choose?

All the modules this semester are compulsory, it won't let you choose the wrong ones.

But how do I know....?

Edited September 18, 2017 by Laura Corin

[catz]

 

 

 

 I still think it's an adult's issue to deal with.  If someone e-mailed me from a group I was running or a class I was teaching and said "I don't process the written word well.  Would you mind a phone call from me once a week to get an update?"  I would say absolutely no problem.  If the organizer is a volunteer, maybe you could follow up with another participant.  I do think being up front about communication issues is part of self advocacy for people who really do have processing struggles.  I also think how they should be handled may be different for a volunteer situation vs. something like a paid class where a teacher should be informed and part of their paid job is inclusion of all.  I think just e-mailing back incessant questions for info already in print is rude.  You could also ask someone at home to read an e-mail out loud to you. 

 

In my experience as someone who regularly leads groups and disperses information, I do really think 90% of issues are laziness.  I get e-mails from people who have no problems being overly verbal on their own social media or their pet projects. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by WoolySocks

[regentrude]

How do I choose my modules?

You sign into your account.

What next?

You click on 'Modules'

What next?

You click on 'Choose my modules'

What modules do I choose?

All the modules this semester are compulsory, it won't let you choose the wrong ones.

But how do I know....?

 

My favorite is recurring every semester:

The syllabus says "No labs in the first week of classes".

On the "Lab" tab on my website is says, in red, "No labs during the first week of classes".

The lab info that is linked on that website says "There are no labs in the first week of classes".

There are signs in the building on the doors that say "No labs this week Aug 22-28"

 

Guess what they are asking? "The syllabus says there are no labs. Are there no labs?"

 

I do not know in which other way I can disseminate this information so it is taken at face value.

Edited September 18, 2017 by regentrude

[Bootsie]

This morning I received an email from a student "Does our note card for today's exam have to be handwritten?  I typed mine."  

 

This is on my syllabus:

 

You may use one card with notes.  This card may not be bigger than 4 inches by 6 inches.  You may write on both sides of the card.  Your card may contain definitions, equations, notes, or whatever you would like, but it must be handwritten.  You may only have one card; you may not have one side of two cards or two cards taped together.  Having more than one card, having a card that measures more than 4 inches by 6 inches, or having items typed or photocopied on your card will be considered academic dishonesty.  

 

I have repeated this information in class.  I have shown examples of what this notecard looks like in class.  I have given examples of what is helpful/not helpful to put on the note card.  I repeated this information in a study guide a week ago.  On Friday I sent this email:

 

Financial Planning Students:

 

Remember that only materials from Chapters 1-3 will be on the exam on Monday.  (Information about the Federal Reserve and multiple deposit creation process will NOT be on Exam 1).

 

You may bring ONE notecard (4 inches by 6 inches) with whatever handwritten material you would like on both the front and the back of the card.  (You may not have two cards taped or stapled together)

 

If I provide too long of an explanation, too many details, or repeat myself too many times I am tuned out.  If I don't provide a long explanation--there is a loophole I didn't mention.  Yes, I expect college students to look at the syllabus and pay attention to instructions.  And, we hear from employers that they want this.  I know one employer who has gone to giving an exam to prospective employees--not to see if they know the material but simply to see if they can/will read and follow instructions.

 

I would prefer to spend my time replying to emails about the course material and having discussions about the course topic with students than responding to students' questions regarding procedures that have already been answered repeatedly.  Students don't realize that this type of question makes me just want to say, "OK --no notecards it just complicates my life too much" 

 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

Now that the class cohorts are pretty much fixed, I will be sending out an email next week reiterating what was said in the welcome meeting (that sixteen people missed): the regulations are in the student handbook; they may be different from those at your last university; we expect you to read it and abide by them.  Whenever someone asks me a question that is answered in the handbook, I will thereafter politely give them the website address and a page reference.

[Χά�ων]

Luckily if you already sent out a detailed note, you can just resend it with the key point bolded.

Something you might consider is whether your note is super long, though.

I have an acquaintance who steadfastly refers people to her 5 pages of closely typed instructions for staffing a very simple snack shack for a movie night that is not available in advance but is sitting on a kitchen counter for reference. If she at least divided it with headings, it wouldn't be so onerous, but really, hunting through 5 pages of close type for how to make popcorn 'the right way' 'in the moment' is a bit much.

The original note was 5 sentences. The information was given verbally and restated in the email. If that is too long then I have no hope for humanity.

[Wheres Toto]

 I still think it's an adult's issue to deal with.  If someone e-mailed me from a group I was running or a class I was teaching and said "I don't process the written word well.  Would you mind a phone call from me once a week to get an update?"  I would say absolutely no problem.  If the organizer is a volunteer, maybe you could follow up with another participant.  I do think being up front about communication issues is part of self advocacy for people who really do have processing struggles.  I also think how they should be handled may be different for a volunteer situation vs. something like a paid class where a teacher should be informed and part of their paid job is inclusion of all.  I think just e-mailing back incessant questions for info already in print is rude.  You could also ask someone at home to read an e-mail out loud to you. 

 

In my experience as someone who regularly leads groups and disperses information, I do really think 90% of issues are laziness.  I get e-mails from people who have no problems being overly verbal on their own social media or their pet projects. 

 

This would count as the worst kind of torture for me.  I absolutely detest talking on the phone.   I would prefer a weekly in-person meet-up, maybe 10 minutes before class/meeting/whatever time for anyone who needs things clarified, if it seems to be an issue.  I think most teachers/professors have office hours so the person who doesn't understand should probably avail themselves of those times.  

 

Most of what I do is volunteer.  I put information out on Facebook, by email, and the most important things are also mentioned in our meetings.  I don't mind discussing something before our meeting starts (I'm there at least 30 minutes early) or after we finish during pick-up, if necessary.

[eternalsummer]

You must have been teaching my class.

 

Or dealing with some of my customers.

[Murphy101]

For my class, I write up my information as concisely as possible.

I email everybody a link to this information at the beginning of the semester.

I even make a video where I am narrating the important information.

I include a link to this video in my email.

 

That does not seem to suffice.

Just today, I had a conversation with a student who never realized that there are online lecture videos he needs to watch. It's the fifth week of classes. :banghead:

I tell my kids all the time to print off the sylabi and read it. I also tell them to check blackboard and both their emails every day BEFORE classes. I tell them to do this no matter what the other students are doing or saying because those students are unlikely to still be in school next semester/year for a reason. The colleges have mandatory seminars are the start of every semester to explain how important this is and how to access everything and where to go for help doing it or setting up accountability study groups and so forth.

 

And yet every class is filled with students who have spent a crap ton more time with electronics than my kids who can't seem to figure any of that out, so my kids spend a considerable amount of class time frustrated bc they have to deal with death by power point as the instructor reads aloud from the email or blackboard info s/he sent and no one bothered to even open.

 

At this point, my kids have caught in to listen for which teachers are supposedly hardasses, bc it turns out they aren't hardasses, they just refuse to waste time on this. Either come to class prepared and participate in class or maybe don't bother going. This year 3 classes have reported jubilation from my kids due to professors who respond to any question already addressed via blackboard or the syllabi with, "that's on blackboard/in your syllabi/already answered" and then moves on to the next student's questions. That's 3 out of the 16 college classes I have various kids in this semester. They are thrilled. Well one had gotten too used to having everything repeated so he had a panic the first day of class because he stopped wasting time being over prepped, but after day one he didn't let it happen again. LOL

 

Also, note taking seems to be beyond the ability of classmates. Idk why. But the need to actually take notes is apparently a huge shock to too many of them. A frequent whine of classmates is that the teacher doesn't give enough outlined handhouts and so they have to note stuff down themselves. Just... smh.

 

ETA: and the follow up note taking conversation of:

What handout are you talking about?

The one on blackboard/email/given last class to prep for this class.

Oh. I didn't see that, do you have one?

No. Go to blackboard/email/ask your study group for a copy after class. (Most have their laptops with them.)

Oh. *looks confused* So I'm on blackboard now and where is it again?

In assignments.

Where's that?

It's the tab on the left that says in bold all caps "assignments".

Oh. And now where is it?

It says in all caps "class handout".

And how do I see it?

Click it!

 

And then less than 2 minutes later a different student is asked a question and they say, "I don't know." And the prof says, "it's on the handout..." what handout? And I'm sure at that point the prof wants to scream and throw a book at them.

 

I know more than one fellow student does.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Murphy101

[catz]

This would count as the worst kind of torture for me.  I absolutely detest talking on the phone.   I would prefer a weekly in-person meet-up, maybe 10 minutes before class/meeting/whatever time for anyone who needs things clarified, if it seems to be an issue.  I think most teachers/professors have office hours so the person who doesn't understand should probably avail themselves of those times.  

 

Most of what I do is volunteer.  I put information out on Facebook, by email, and the most important things are also mentioned in our meetings.  I don't mind discussing something before our meeting starts (I'm there at least 30 minutes early) or after we finish during pick-up, if necessary.

 

Oh, I am with you.  I hate talking on the phone.  And most of the work I do is volunteering as well.  I'd rather meet with someone at a meeting early than talk on the phone too.  To me, if you are an adult working with a volunteer the onus is on you to make it work and do the extra hoop jumping is what I was getting at.  If I knew someone would call me at a scheduled time and keep it to a 5 minute briefing, that I can do.  But no, as a volunteer, I don't have the time or energy to be at your beck and call on the phone any time day or night.  I do teach on a contract basis sometimes and I schedule office hours I will answer calls, texts, e-mails.  If you don't catch me during those times, all bets are off. 

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by WoolySocks

[eternalsummer]

There was a seller on Etsy whose stuff I really liked, and who was quite successful, who said in her shop announcement that if you sent her a convo asking any question that was already answered in a listing description or her posted policies, she'd just delete your convo.

 

!!!!

 

I do not go that far, but I do grumble to myself a bit.

[Cosmos]

Luckily if you already sent out a detailed note, you can just resend it with the key point bolded. 

Something you might consider is whether your note is super long, though.

I have an acquaintance who steadfastly refers people to her 5 pages of closely typed instructions for staffing a very simple snack shack for a movie night that is not available in advance but is sitting on a kitchen counter for reference.  If she at least divided it with headings, it wouldn't be so onerous, but really, hunting through 5 pages of close type for how to make popcorn 'the right way' 'in the moment' is a bit much.

 

OMG! I completely sympathize. I deal with a few people who seem to have no idea how to visually present text so that it easy to digest quickly. It drives me absolutely nuts. Sometimes, when I have access to an electronic version of a WALL of text, I reformat it in a logical and easy-to-read way just for my own use. It takes just a couple of minutes and is SO much easier to use. I find it bewildering that people can send out such unreadable mush.

 

Instructions are the worst when poorly presented. I have done that "hunt for popcorn" procedure many times. :cursing:

[regentrude]

There was a seller on Etsy whose stuff I really liked, and who was quite successful, who said in her shop announcement that if you sent her a convo asking any question that was already answered in a listing description or her posted policies, she'd just delete your convo.

 

!!!!

 

I do not go that far, but I do grumble to myself a bit.

 

My kid works customer service for a large etsy store. He has his share of stories...

[HS Mom in NC]

My husband (programmer and software consultant) says there has been  a HUGE failure in STEM education for at least a couple of generations.  Mommy and daddy are excited that Jr. is sooooooo smart in math and science! Woo hoo!  Look at those test scores!  Jr. is set for success! But the vast majority cannot read an email and respond appropriately to content or with the most basic writing skills. When they have to talk to customers and colleagues they sound like complete morons because they're can't articulate their thoughts clearly.  These are people with advanced degrees from highly selective universities.  It's a chronic problem.  He gets paid handsomely to, among other things, recommend the worst of them get fired.  He would recommend more be fired, but finding people competent to take their places is really tough. 

If you want your kid involved in STEM education, look for some that explicitly teach things like:
 

1. spoken communication skills-knowing when to use various levels of jargon that are appropriate for customers (no technical knowledge) to colleagues (high technical knowledge)
2. written communication skills-comprehending it, replying appropriately to it in concise, coherent ways

3. time management, time management, time management, time management, and time management skills-deciding what is worth spending time on and what isn't and knowing the most efficient way of doing things
4. problem solving skills- creating experiments to test individual factors when something complex isn't working properly, record keeping so you don't waste time repeating what didn't work, brainstorming solutions, etc.

5. reasoned arguing-explaining reasons and examples of why they came to the conclusion they did instead of just repeating their conclusions more and more emphatically

6. cost benefit analysis- the ability to identify different options and weight the pros and cons of each keeping in mind cost, effectiveness, deadlines, contractual obligations, short term benefits, long term benefits, and the like

7. active listening and seeing it from a customer or colleagues point of view

8. understanding their part in relation to the whole and how those parts interact with each other

All of those skills apply outside of STEM fields, and so we should all be working on those with our kids.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

My favorite is recurring every semester:

The syllabus says "No labs in the first week of classes".

On the "Lab" tab on my website is says, in red, "No labs during the first week of classes".

The lab info that is linked on that website says "There are no labs in the first week of classes".

There are signs in the building on the doors that say "No labs this week Aug 22-28"

 

Guess what they are asking? "The syllabus says there are no labs. Are there no labs?"

 

I do not know in which other way I can disseminate this information so it is taken at face value.

 

One thing I will say,  in places with bureaucracy, it's not unusual to get different answers from different people working there.  My daughter's fiance, a diligent person, was very frustrated to be told by someone in the financial aid department certain documents would be required and then later found out from another person working there that other documents, not listed, were required. Sometimes people with those kinds of experiences are prone to questioning everything  to avoid those kinds of problems.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Murphy101]

One thing I will say, in places with bureaucracy, it's not unusual to get different answers from different people working there My daughter's fiance, a diligent person, was very frustrated to be told by someone in the financial aid department certain documents would be required and then later find out from another person working there that other documents, not listed, were required. Sometimes people with those kinds of experiences are prone to questioning everything to avoid those kinds of problems.

Ugh. The rule for financial aid is

Nag

Look again

Nag

Look again

Nag

Look again

Nag

Look again and woot! Finally the money has arrived end September or early October.

[Murphy101]

And yeah some unorganized teachers do burn kids so they feel they have to follow a verify and then verify the verification policy. Btdt too.

[heartlikealion]

Yeah, I get it.

 

I get mad at the emails from customer support people like, "thank you for writing to us. Have you tried XYZ?" and I've already emailed them saying I tried XYZ and my issue is with C.