Fire at London High-rise apartment

[PrincessMommy]

Just awful.  My heart goes out to those affected.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40269625

 

[Bluegoat]

I heard this it sounds terrible.

 

I've often wondered why we don't hear more about people in high-rises being trapped in fires.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Heard about this on NPR.  This is so sad.

 

 

[Selkie]

What a nightmare.  :(

[lovinmyboys]

How horrible. It sounds like smoke alarms weren't working.

[TravelingChris]

It is so hard in the initial reports to know what is really true but reports I just read said someone was telling people to stay in apartments.

[SKL]

I heard 6 dead that they have confirmed so far.  I was watching in the wee hours just wishing they could get the fire out in case anyone was still trapped.  Meanwhile praying that most people were out and anyone who did die was not in pain.  :(  :(  Must be so hard to try fighting that kind of fire.  I feel for the firemen and other emergency workers.

[OneStepAtATime]

Horrific.  And initial reports from those in the building are saying no fire alarms went off and people were being advised to stay in their apartments.  And fire fighters were saying they couldn't use the internal system to help put out the fire.  

[vonfirmath]

I know our board member Laura lives in London? I was praying for her last night since I don't know where she lives.

[unsinkable]

It is so hard in the initial reports to know what is really true but reports I just read said someone was telling people to stay in apartments.

This has to do with how high rise fires usually spread in modern buildings and the fire fighting strategies that are used.

 

Sometimes, it is actually safer because a fire can be contain to one area of one floor but people trying to flee the building flee right into the fire or flee into areas with no breathable air.

 

THIS fire is going to raise a lot of questions about the status of the building, I think. And obviously, how it began.

Edited June 14, 2017 by unsinkable

[happi duck]

So sad.

 

:(

[fraidycat]

I know our board member Laura lives in London? I was praying for her last night since I don't know where she lives.

I think she's actually in Scotland.

[prairiewindmomma]

Heartbreaking!

[Lanny]

Apparently, several years ago, they spent $30 million dollars (or British Pounds?) doing Cosmetic updates to the building. It may be that is why the first spread so quickly, from the 4th floor, where it began, to the 24th floor.  They did not spend any of the money on fire safety, it was all for cosmetic improvements.  Sad.  

[Laura Corin]

I know our board member Laura lives in London? I was praying for her last night since I don't know where she lives.

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I live in Scotland though.

[Guest]

I heard this it sounds terrible.

 

I've often wondered why we don't hear more about people in high-rises being trapped in fires.

Most of the newer ones, post 1980's, tend to be built with fairly sophisticated fire suppression systems. Many older buildings have been retrofitted with them too.

 

This was so sad. Those poor people.

[heartlikealion]

My sister and BIL live in London, but not that side of London so I think they were not affected. I haven't heard from her today yet.

[Ausmumof3]

I feel so horrified by this. I know when we've stayed in high rise before I always feel kind of trapped.

 

The worst is there was a petition signed by 90pc of residents expressing concerns about the lack of fire escapes, issues with electrical and lighting and concerns about the buildings cladding.

 

There was an apartment fire here that didn't proceed as expected in Melbourne and an investigation showed that the buildings cladding didn't meet the combustibility guidelines.

 

It frustrates me so much because my DH is somewhat in constructions and there are constant pressures to cut corners to meet increasingly unrealistic time and budget guidelines. If something doesn't change I personally believe there will be an increase in completely preventable tragedies.

[PrincessMommy]

my heart goes out to those people who are looking for familly/friends:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40286910

 

 

[unsinkable]

my heart goes out to those people who are looking for familly/friends:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40286910

Me too. I saw one woman say maybe her uncle is in a coma and they'll find him. :crying:

[Arcadia]

It frustrates me so much because my DH is somewhat in constructions and there are constant pressures to cut corners to meet increasingly unrealistic time and budget guidelines.

I had stayed in the 24th floor until I moved out when I was 31. We would have gone to the corridors or rooftop if there was a high rise fire (ETA: easier for the civil defense forces to reach usually). My first marital home was on the 10th floor and it was also the top floor. Roof top rescue by helicopter would be easier for all of us on the 10th floor as there is space to land. Less chance of fumes inhalation too compared to the fire exit staircase. However it is still rare for fire to spread to more than one apartment unit in my home country for concrete buildings, no earthquakes to worry about there.

 

Concrete encased steel and concrete walls is actually the first line of defense for spreading. However curing concrete takes a long time. Prefabricated cuts down the time significantly but not the cost. The doors are also fireproof doors.

 

If your husband is interested link is to my home country's civil defense building guide section on fire resistance. It is 81 pages with many tables https://www.scdf.gov.sg/content/scdf_internet/en/building-professionals/publications_and_circulars/fire_code_2007master_version/_jcr_content/par/download_6/file.res/Chap_3.pdf

 

When the rental apartment complex was being constructed across from my current home, a fire broke out from a welding error in the nearly finished building. The whole 5 storey building burnt down and the developers rebuilt. The workers were luckily unhurt and the adjacent buildings in the same complex didn't catch fire.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Arcadia

[wonderchica]

How terrible. There are reports of some people throwing their children out the windows to be caught, including an infant.

[heartlikealion]

My sister said they are fine/not affected and that lots of food and clothing has been donated already. 

[Lanny]

A family from Cali, Colombia who moved to London is looking for their 12 year old daughter. The girl was born in the UK, so I don't know if they have her registered as a Colombian National also.  She apparently called her family at about 130 A.M. that she was outside the building (she had escaped) but they have heard nothing from her since. They are searching the hospitals, looking for her, 3 times a day. This article is in Spanish. It says they think the cause of the fire may be that a Refrigerator on the 4th floor exploded.  

 

There may be a lot of buildings in London that were constructed like that one?

 

http://www.elpais.com.co/cali/incertidumbre-por-paradero-de-hija-de-familia-calena-desaparecida-tras-incendio-en-londres.html

[Lanny]

How terrible. There are reports of some people throwing their children out the windows to be caught, including an infant.

 

Yes. One mother tossed her baby from the 10th floor. The baby was caught by people on the ground and the baby survived.

[zoobie]

Yes. One mother tossed her baby from the 10th floor. The baby was caught by people on the ground and the baby survived.

 

Oh wow. I can't find anything about whether the mother survived. What a horrific event. :(

[Lanny]

I suspect there are dozens, possibly hundreds, of buildings in London that have that kind of Cosmetic Facade.  I hope I am wrong...  They spent 30 million (U.S. Dollars or British Pounds?) to install that facade.

[Arcadia]

I suspect there are dozens, possibly hundreds, of buildings in London that have that kind of Cosmetic Facade. I hope I am wrong... They spent 30 million (U.S. Dollars or British Pounds?) to install that facade.

A journalist friend posted a Channel 4 news video link on Facebook. If what was commented is true, it is horrible.

 

"Responding to presenter Jon Snow's comment about spending on refurbishments for the building last year, Akala said: "It was an eyesore for the rich people who lived opposite.

...

Particular attention has been drawn to the cladding which was added to Grenfell Tower, in part to improve its appearance, during a refurbishment last year.

 

A planning document for the regeneration work published in 2014 made repeated reference to "the appearance of the area" and was used as justification for the material used on the outside of the building.

 

Experts are now saying that the cladding may have helped spread the blaze quickly up the outside of the building." http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/akala-grenfell-tower-fire-people-died-poor-london-rapper-block-flats-deaths-kensington-a7790906.html

[Laura Corin]

I just heard a fire expert talking about the design, the containment plan and the cladding.  The block of flats was originally designed such that fire would be contained in each individual flat.  There were therefore only in-flat alarms, rather than building-wide alarms.  Containment works fine, so long as the integrity is maintained.  But every time you change the heating system and put a pipe through, or make any kind of alteration, the breach in the containment has to be made properly fire-safe.

 

Then they put the cladding on for cosmetic and insulation reasons.  The cladding was probably a sandwich of metal-insulator-metal.  At high heat, this is likely to delaminate and the interior could catch fire or melt.  Again, the cladding should be compartmentalised, so that at each floor level there are fire-proof bricks between the cladding and the wall and all the way across the sandwich, so that the cladding is separated into discrete panels, it doesn't cause a fire all the way up, and there is no chimney effect.

 

So, he says, the theory is sound, and if implemented perfectly it chimes perfectly with the advice to stay in your flat rather than evacuating.

 

However, in a social housing building over forty years old, probably repaired to the cheapest standards, the likelihood that the compartmental integrity has been maintained is very slim.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Laura Corin

[TravelingChris]

I saw a fire inspector explaining how the cladding used on the outside had air in the middle and the oxygen provided fuel and the space became like a chimney flue and that is why it spread so fast.

 

I was curious about exploding refrigerators and do see that they are a problem in the UK.  Haven't heard of any such problems here.

[Laura Corin]

 

I was curious about exploding refrigerators and do see that they are a problem in the UK. Haven't heard of any such problems here.

I've not heard of this before. Edited June 15, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Lanny]

"According to the Times of London, the cladding's manufacturer said its use is banned in the US on high-rise buildings "because of the fire and smoke spread."

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/16/europe/grenfell-tower-queen-elizabeth-visit/index.html

[Arcadia]

Today's BBC article London fire: A tale of two tower blocks sounds sadly familiar of the rich and poor divide

 

"About 8% of Londoners now live in tower blocks. Some flats are bought for millions; others are relatively low-cost social housing rented from a local council at a fraction of the private rate.

...

Once you get past the sales brochure description of 3 Merchant Square's walnut cutlery drawer inserts and integral wine coolers, the adjustable mood lighting and heated bathroom walls, you come to the fire safety details: Every flat has not only ceiling mounted smoke detectors but sprinklers.

 

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.

 

Former chief fire officer Ronnie King, honorary secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on fire safety and rescue - which had recommended fitting sprinklers to buildings to save lives - said the regulations "badly need updating" and "three successive ministers have not done it".

 

"My own thinking is there was the red tape challenge and they don't really want to put regulation on to businesses, adding a burden.

"It's one of those that if you bring in a new regulation, you have got to give three up to get it."

...

Another factor adding to the building's fire risk, according to the Grenfell Action Group, was the fact that in the past rubbish, having accumulated in the hallways of the tower, was not collected. At one point, the only emergency exit to the building was cluttered with an old mattress, sheets of cardboard and a broken heater.

It's hard to imagine residents in 3 Merchant Square having to put up with rubbish filling the corridors." http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40290158

[Bluegoat]

Today's BBC article London fire: A tale of two tower blocks sounds sadly familiar of the rich and poor divide

 

"About 8% of Londoners now live in tower blocks. Some flats are bought for millions; others are relatively low-cost social housing rented from a local council at a fraction of the private rate.

...

Once you get past the sales brochure description of 3 Merchant Square's walnut cutlery drawer inserts and integral wine coolers, the adjustable mood lighting and heated bathroom walls, you come to the fire safety details: Every flat has not only ceiling mounted smoke detectors but sprinklers.

 

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.

 

Former chief fire officer Ronnie King, honorary secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on fire safety and rescue - which had recommended fitting sprinklers to buildings to save lives - said the regulations "badly need updating" and "three successive ministers have not done it".

 

"My own thinking is there was the red tape challenge and they don't really want to put regulation on to businesses, adding a burden.

"It's one of those that if you bring in a new regulation, you have got to give three up to get it."

...

Another factor adding to the building's fire risk, according to the Grenfell Action Group, was the fact that in the past rubbish, having accumulated in the hallways of the tower, was not collected. At one point, the only emergency exit to the building was cluttered with an old mattress, sheets of cardboard and a broken heater.

It's hard to imagine residents in 3 Merchant Square having to put up with rubbish filling the corridors." http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40290158

 

 

George Monbiot, I think, wrote about this yesterday.  Apparently it is an actual policy that adding a new reg means getting rid of two others.  It came about because of the belief there were too many regulations.

[Lanny]

If I understand, it would have delayed, and complicated, the Cosmetic improvements to the building, if they had also installed Sprinklers and/or other fire prevention systems when the building was being renovated.  Also, I understand that they are going to inspect other buildings that are currently being renovated, but what about the buildings that have already been renovated?

[Laura Corin]

If I understand, it would have delayed, and complicated, the Cosmetic improvements to the building, if they had also installed Sprinklers and/or other fire prevention systems when the building was being renovated. Also, I understand that they are going to inspect other buildings that are currently being renovated, but what about the buildings that have already been renovated?

Yes, they are all going to be looked at.

[Lanny]

It now seems that cladding material may have been banned in the UK.  

[TravelingChris]

 

Laura as to exploding refrigerators, I just googled that and the first few stories were of ones exploding in the UK. It had to do with the gas that is being used to cool and something about it becoming explosive if you don't open the fridge door frequently enough. Apparently in the US, we use some other coolant.

[TravelingChris]

In the US, I think all cities have required smoke detectors and maybe even sprinkler retrofits in older buildings that didn't have them. Many older building here had fire escapes too.

t

[SKL]

Where I live, I don't think you're required to retrofit a non-residential building if you aren't also doing other work on it.  I would like to hope that all apartment buildings have to meet some minimum code.

 

I know the buildings we bought and rehabbed required mega bucks for environmental cleanup and retrofitting, which is why US investors tend to need government financial incentives to invest in old / low-income areas.