Illiteracy in public high school?

[Miss Peregrine]

Dd told me today that in her health class(9th grade) presentations there was a girl who had to stop and sound out practically every word. :( I am still thinking about it and I have tears in my eyes.

 

Right away I knew that I need to volunteer at our library to help people learn to read. I'm going to call tomorrow and find out how. It just makes me so sad. I wonder how widespread this problem is.

[maize]

She may be dyslexic; even with remediation some people never become fluent readers.

[Arcadia]

Is the student an ESL? My local schools have ESLs at all grade levels who have just relocated here. Dyslexia is another possibility.

 

Are you in SoCal? The link is for volunteering for Reading Partners LA area https://latutorregsite.my-trs.com

[Storygirl]

She may be dyslexic; even with remediation some people never become fluent readers.

 

:iagree:

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I remember high school classmates back in the 70's who couldn't read. I would suspect a LD as well.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Miss Peregrine]

Is the student an ESL? My local schools have ESLs at all grade levels who have just relocated here. Dyslexia is another possibility.

 

Are you in SoCal? The link is for volunteering for Reading Partners LA area https://latutorregsite.my-trs.com

Yes. I'll check it out, thanks!

[Guest]

It may be developmentally appropriate. Health is a fully included class here.

[NorthwestMom]

People with learning disabilities are everywhere.

[Mergath]

I agree with the pps. I would assume she's dyslexic or has a developmental disability before I'd assume it's a systemic problem with literacy education in the school district.

[MomatHWTK]

Here are some statistics and other information on literacy levels in the U.S. It may not be a pressing problem at the high school, but there are still adults who can benefit from tutoring.

https://proliteracy.org/Resources/Adult-Literacy-Facts

[Mandamom]

I work for a private school for students with learning disabilities (reading/language/ADHD) and we get students coming in from schools reading (math/writing) anywhere from slightly above grade level to 6 or 7 years below level. We get students from local private, public and homeschools (we have a half-day program for homeschooling parents), and they have had a variety of educational  experiences and in the end, learning has been very challenging.  The older students definitely experience secondary issues, including low-self-esteem, related to the difficulty learning. Learning disabilities are no fun. 

 

The earlier these students can get help the better it is for them. The older students need additional supports because many of decided that learning is not for them. The first goal is to change that thinking.   

 

I'm glad to hear that you're interested in helping because much help is needed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rebbyribs]

She may be dyslexic; even with remediation some people never become fluent readers.

 

And the problem may only be with reading aloud.  I have a family member who does not read aloud well - he stumbles through children's books. However, he reads for pleasure and information on a regular basis, seems to understand what he reads, and can discuss it intelligently.  

[Anne in CA]

I went to school with a boy who never read decently aloud, ever. It was like fingernails on  chalkboard to when it was his turn for a paragraph in the social studies book. I was always embarrassed for him that he never read any book for a book report that would not be at fifth grade level. But he went to BYU, and became an accountant so it is not impossible that she has other things going for her. 

[LucyStoner]

I have a sibling who is not totally illiterate but he's not a fluent reader.  He doesn't have any LDs that I am aware of and he's quite clever.  My other brother does have LDs but he can read as well as an average adult.  While I don't doubt that many people with poor literacy skills have LDs, there are people who just never learned to read well.  

 

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by LucyStoner

[nansk]

Dd told me today that in her health class(9th grade) presentations there was a girl who had to stop and sound out practically every word. :( I am still thinking about it and I have tears in my eyes.

 

Right away I knew that I need to volunteer at our library to help people learn to read. I'm going to call tomorrow and find out how. It just makes me so sad. I wonder how widespread this problem is.

You have such a kind heart! 

If it's appropriate, perhaps you can also reach out to this girl and ask her if she wants to join the lessons at the library.

[kiwik]

There is illiteracy in high schools in NZ so I imagine there is plenty in the US too.  The kids I knew at school in the 70s and 80s probably had LDs or in at least one case it was not picked up that they had glue ear and were more or less deaf until they were about 9.  Not being able to hear clearly and coming from a home where reading is not valued makes learning to read almost impossible.  Most people are more at the low level of literacy though rather than completely illiterate.  

[FaithManor]

I would not rule out social anxiety. My dh who could read at a college level as a 5th grader stumbled very, very badly when reading aloud which made a lot of teachers assume he was a poor reader. He would get stuck in special ed classes until teachers would notice him in the corner doing something alone, ask him what it was, and was using an algebra textbook he'd found in the school library to teach himself algebra 1, or a high school physics book that he was taking quite fine notes from which usually then got the teachers to think, hmmmmm what landed him in this class? It was always reading aloud.

 

His parents were going through a terrible time in their marriage, home life was horrible. Once things stabilized at home and his anxiety levels went down he could read in front of a group just fine.

 

One encounter of any kind with a student struggling to read is not enough information to draw a conclusion.

 

Besides anxiety, learning disability, ESL (and if the parents do not speak English, the student is far less likely to read in English out loud at home thus limiting practice), speech impediment, many, many reasons that do not necessarily mean the student is illiterate. I know plenty of people who read silently much better than to a group.

[EmilyGF]

There absolutely are illiterate kids in high school.

 

How do I know? Because my friend is a reading coach for eighth graders. And she doesn't know anything about reading (she is a sub and the school couldn't afford to hire a real reading specialist so they hired her as a long term sub). She majored in social work. She does her best but often that means keeping the kids from flirting with each other. She has asked to be given her own space so that the kids aren't bothered by the kids in the normal class, but the school has refused. She told me the principal didn't even tell her how to begin when she was hired but another teacher took her aside and gave her some books.

 

Do these kids have LDs? Quite possibly. But they also haven't been taught to read (their district teaches sight words like "am" and "and" and "sat"). And if they have LDs, the rate is shockingly high. This is a high poverty school, of course. No wealthy district would put up with this.

 

Emily

[maize]

I have a sibling who is not totally illiterate but he's not a fluent reader. He doesn't have any LDs that I am aware of and he's quite clever. My other brother does have LDs but he can read as well as an average adult. While I don't doubt that many people with poor literacy skills have LDs, there are people who just never learned to read well.

It is true that some people just need better teaching.

 

The fact that you are not aware of any learning disabilities though does not say anything about whether he has such, unless perhaps you have evaluated him as an experienced professional. And the fact that he is clever is completely irrelevant; people with very high IQ's can have learning disabilities.

[Guest]

I know four (that I know of) adults who are functionally illiterate. One is dyslexic, one has another issue that is responsible.

 

The other two have no LDs (tested for divorce proceedings paid for by people who very much wanted them to come up with LDs fwiw) but are, as I said, functionally illiterate.

[Guest]

Look at the NAEP results.

 

Im sure cause varies by district, but the big thing I see is students who refuse to do the work..the schools here ask for AR participation and reading at home and many just plain refuse. Cant advance without practicing. Our middle school has double period core classes now - first period for core basic instruction and reteach,second for remedial. Ele. has lots of reteach and remediation, as well as specialized assistance for those with LDs. The scenario is the same as reported nationally...home culture and work ethic make a notable difference in outcome.

 

I see the same with my literacy clients.More practice, more progress.

 

my kids heard a lot of put downs from grade k to 8 for doing the work. the culture is that a person is foolish for doing more than the minimum. And we all know a 65 is a pass.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Miss Peregrine]

Look at the NAEP results.

 

Im sure cause varies by district, but the big thing I see is students who refuse to do the work..the schools here ask for AR participation and reading at home and many just plain refuse. Cant advance without practicing. Our middle school has double period core classes now - first period for core basic instruction and reteach,second for remedial. Ele. has lots of reteach and remediation, as well as specialized assistance for those with LDs. The scenario is the same as reported nationally...home culture and work ethic make a notable difference in outcome.

 

I see the same with my literacy clients.More practice, more progress.

 

my kids heard a lot of put downs from grade k to 8 for doing the work. the culture is that a person is foolish for doing more than the minimum. And we all know a 65 is a pass.

Yes, not doing the work is rampant. It's shocking to me, actually. And sad.

[Anne in CA]

Yes, not doing the work is rampant. It's shocking to me, actually. And sad.

In some family cultures doing more than the minimum is considered stupid. Also, in some family cultures learning things is considered weak. I once lived in an apartment complex that started taking HUD that was zoned for the best elementary school in the west hills of Portland and had to listen to women in the laundry room complain that the school was "making" their kids learn. I was mad because the school was obviously not servicing kids from our apartment complex the same as from the affluent neighborhood surrounding it, but they were mad about the little bit of school their kids had to do. Looking back I blamed the school for a lot of my dd's problems because they simply didn't work with kids like my dd who were not six figure income kids, but now I realize that the attitude of many parents in my apartment complex probably contributed to the problems we had with the school. In the case of those families many of them were third generation welfare and did not want their kids working, ever, so learning at school was a waste of time for them. School was for free babysitting only. I did have to move before my lease was up because I couldn't be around those people or have my 7yo dd around kids who despised learning. 

[Alessandra]

I would not rule out social anxiety. My dh who could read at a college level as a 5th grader stumbled very, very badly when reading aloud which made a lot of teachers assume he was a poor reader. He would get stuck in special ed classes until teachers would notice him in the corner doing something alone, ask him what it was, and was using an algebra textbook he'd found in the school library to teach himself algebra 1, or a high school physics book that he was taking quite fine notes from which usually then got the teachers to think, hmmmmm what landed him in this class? It was always reading aloud.

 

His parents were going through a terrible time in their marriage, home life was horrible. Once things stabilized at home and his anxiety levels went down he could read in front of a group just fine.

 

One encounter of any kind with a student struggling to read is not enough information to draw a conclusion.

 

Besides anxiety, learning disability, ESL (and if the parents do not speak English, the student is far less likely to read in English out loud at home thus limiting practice), speech impediment, many, many reasons that do not necessarily mean the student is illiterate. I know plenty of people who read silently much better than to a group.

My kids were in a reading program that was a help for social anxiety issues. This may sound flippant, but I mean it seriously. Kids went to the local public library weekly for an appointment with a therapy dog. The dog lustened attentively and never corrected pronunciation, lol. Therapy dogs are not the total solution of course, but they can help.

 

Sorry to digress, but I have such fond memories of the dogs.

[Selkie]

In some family cultures doing more than the minimum is considered stupid. Also, in some family cultures learning things is considered weak. I once lived in an apartment complex that started taking HUD that was zoned for the best elementary school in the west hills of Portland and had to listen to women in the laundry room complain that the school was "making" their kids learn. I was mad because the school was obviously not servicing kids from our apartment complex the same as from the affluent neighborhood surrounding it, but they were mad about the little bit of school their kids had to do. Looking back I blamed the school for a lot of my dd's problems because they simply didn't work with kids like my dd who were not six figure income kids, but now I realize that the attitude of many parents in my apartment complex probably contributed to the problems we had with the school. In the case of those families many of them were third generation welfare and did not want their kids working, ever, so learning at school was a waste of time for them. School was for free babysitting only. I did have to move before my lease was up because I couldn't be around those people or have my 7yo dd around kids who despised learning. 

 

Yes, I encountered this attitude when my kids in school, although most of the families were not on welfare. It was very sad when young kids wanted to learn but the parents discouraged it.

 

One little boy I knew asked his dad if he could get the Harry Potter book, and his dad refused and said, "Why would you want to read a book when you can just watch the movie?"  :glare:

[AimeeM]

Don't jump to conclusions. She may very well be dyslexic. My daughter is 15 and still often has to sound out a new word (props to your DD's classmate, though -- because people talking about things, even amongst themselves, is why my DD would have never read to the class), she frequently skips over words that have no "visual" (and, the, there, that, etc.), and very often she has to re-read more than once to take anything away from what she's read. 

 

I think it's great that you want to help, but it's very likely that this particular girl has an LD, and may have received a ton of remediation. She may even read fine to herself (DD loves reading, but does much better reading silently). 

[Heathermomster]

Definitely, volunteer if you feel called to it.

 

About 1 in 5 children require direct and explicit phonics instruction to read, and that number assumes an adequate IQ, no issues with vision, or underlying auditory processing difficulties.

 

Of course, there are families that simply place no value on education and have surrendered their kiddos education to the state. There are tons of single parents and grandparents too raising kids with little or no support. This is unfortunate given many schools use a sight word approach to reading until the child is behind, and then the school might start a phonics based O-G if the student is lucky and the parents successfully navigate the IEP process. .

 

 

ETA: Some Scottish Rite Learning Centers dyslexia screen for free or low cost. One simply has to call around and ask.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Heathermomster

[LucyStoner]

It is true that some people just need better teaching.

 

The fact that you are not aware of any learning disabilities though does not say anything about whether he has such, unless perhaps you have evaluated him as an experienced professional. And the fact that he is clever is completely irrelevant; people with very high IQ's can have learning disabilities.

I know that- my own husband has a learning disability and is exceedingly bright.

 

In my brother's case though, I am sure he *was* evaluated, more than once in at least two states. My other brother and I were both evaluated as needed and my parents once moved states at great cost to ensure my other brother had access to services for his CP. They didn't let their kids go without in that one regard.

 

Honestly I think it's a blend of three things:

 

-instability in home when he should have been learning to read (he lived with my crazy grandmother for a number of years because he was born when my mother was very young and my grandmother was a controlling, cruel person.)

 

-changing schools frequently, sometimes with mediocre teaching.

 

-his own mental health issues- he started self medicating while young and my parents couldn't force him to go to rehab. They tried everything to get him help but it was no use. When you have a kid who is using drugs at 14, that and not his academic success becomes the focus. First, how do we help him get clean, then how do we help him with his pending legal charges, then how do we help him while worrying he's going to die of an OD, and so on and so forth until it's "how do we keep our younger children safe physically and emotionally so he doesn't harm them?" My brother was voluntarily FT on the streets by 17, fled the state to dodge a warrant at 18, had a few kids he doesnt treat so well and remains an addict with recent arrests for DUI and DV assault to this day. Now he has a lot of bravado and bluster and just will not admit that he has very low literacy skills or do anything about them.

 

It's possible that something was missed. But given his family history I think there are issues besides LDs in the mix. Also the use of drugs and alcohol from that young of an age no doubt has impaired his cognitive and social development.

Edited March 9, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Anne in CA]

Yes, I encountered this attitude when my kids in school, although most of the families were not on welfare. It was very sad when young kids wanted to learn but the parents discouraged it.

 

One little boy I knew asked his dad if he could get the Harry Potter book, and his dad refused and said, "Why would you want to read a book when you can just watch the movie?"  :glare:

That is heartbreaking.

[Lanny]

I suspect that many students are below grade level and that extends to many subjects, not just the ability to Read & Write English.   I believe part of that is due to "Automatic Promotion", where the schools just move them along, whether or not they know the material, to get rid of them. When I was young, the High Schools had classes at Night, for adults to learn how to read and for many other subjects. They had Summer School courses, where one could repeat a course, or take something they didn't have time for during the regular school year.  I think this is one very valid reason that some states have the "End of Course" examinations, to validate whether or not the students actually have knowledge about what they were taught, in certain courses, before a High School Diploma can be issued by a Public School. Sadly, many students who did not grasp the material are now enrolled in Community Colleges, taking Remedial Level High School courses.  IMO, they should be in High School if they are taking High School courses.

 

In the example the OP described, possibly the student has an LD or some other issue. 

[ktgrok]

Look at the NAEP results.

 

Im sure cause varies by district, but the big thing I see is students who refuse to do the work..the schools here ask for AR participation and reading at home and many just plain refuse. Cant advance without practicing.

 

I don't know..I mean here they are slotted for 90 minutes of language arts daily, most of that reading instruction. I'd think 90 minutes a day is plenty of practice, or should be!

[Lanny]

I don't know..I mean here they are slotted for 90 minutes of language arts daily, most of that reading instruction. I'd think 90 minutes a day is plenty of practice, or should be!

 

90 minutes is more than enough, IF the Instructor knows the material, IF the Instructor knows how to teach the material, AND IF the students are motivated and paying attention.  You might have 1 or 2 of those, but not the 3rd. All are necessary.  If there is a class that is 90 minutes long, every minute it goes on, the students are paying less and less attention to the Instructor.  That's normal.  Same thing in a meeting at work. The longer it lasts, the less attention the people are paying. 

[FaithManor]

My kids were in a reading program that was a help for social anxiety issues. This may sound flippant, but I mean it seriously. Kids went to the local public library weekly for an appointment with a therapy dog. The dog lustened attentively and never corrected pronunciation, lol. Therapy dogs are not the total solution of course, but they can help.

 

Sorry to digress, but I have such fond memories of the dogs.

Not surprised at all. Many kids need the listener to be quiet and stop interrupting them and correcting constantly in order to overcome nervousness and anxiety. Save comments for the end. Interrupting all the time can be very bad for the student.

[Guest]

I don't know..I mean here they are slotted for 90 minutes of language arts daily, most of that reading instruction. I'd think 90 minutes a day is plenty of practice, or should be!

What Lanny said, and add that the ninety minutes is instruction, not practice. The practice is homework. The instruction is whole class on grade level, which doesn't always help many, since so many are not in the zpd ( zone of proximal development) although those that are not on grade level will get remedial instruction. Actually practicing on.their own is something they are supposed to do in the classroom, but many refuse and some just are too far behind. Its just like music or math, solo practice is needed in addition to instruction. Edited March 9, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[hepatica]

I suspect that many students are below grade level and that extends to many subjects, not just the ability to Read & Write English.   I believe part of that is due to "Automatic Promotion", where the schools just move them along, whether or not they know the material, to get rid of them. When I was young, the High Schools had classes at Night, for adults to learn how to read and for many other subjects. They had Summer School courses, where one could repeat a course, or take something they didn't have time for during the regular school year.  I think this is one very valid reason that some states have the "End of Course" examinations, to validate whether or not the students actually have knowledge about what they were taught, in certain courses, before a High School Diploma can be issued by a Public School. Sadly, many students who did not grasp the material are now enrolled in Community Colleges, taking Remedial Level High School courses.  IMO, they should be in High School if they are taking High School courses.

 

In the example the OP described, possibly the student has an LD or some other issue. 

 

It's just not as simple as holding kids back. Twenty percent of the population is dyslexic. That is a different brain organization. The dyslexic brain is fabulous. A large percentage of these kids are also gifted. How does it make sense to keep a kid with an IQ of 130 in a first or second grade class simply because they are not yet reading. Schools were never designed to deal with these kids, but we know way too much about the dyslexic brain now to keep ignoring them! So no, not promoting kids who cannot read fluently is not the answer (too many negatives in that sentence, but I think it makes sense). There are so, so many highly successful dyslexic adults (and by highly successful I am talking chemistry professor at MIT or genius award winning paleontologist type successful) who failed or were held back in 3rd grade. That is a flaw of the school system, not the dyslexic brain. Something like 60% of the prison population and 85% of all juvenile offenders have reading difficulties. This is a problem to be addressed, not punished. Holding kids back in school, rather than addressing the problem, is, IMO, the first imprisonment of dyslexic kids.

 

Oh, and many, many dyslexic kids, who struggle in high school, thrive in college. 

[ElizabethB]

In schools that teach sight words (most of them) there are about 30% of students who have some trouble reading.

 

Stats:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/litpercent.html

 

I've been a volunteer literacy tutor for 23 years and have found most rapid progress with the system I now use, nonsense words and syllables.  Regular phonics works but a lot slower, adding spelling helps speed it up a bit but not as much as nonsense words and syllables.  Here is what I use, all free to print:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

I can work almost as efficiently with 2 to 3 students as with one, having them work on the exercises and rotating who I'm having read aloud to me, they work on syllable division exercises and figuring out word lists while the other students are reading.  

Edited March 9, 2017 by ElizabethB

[Lanny]

@hepatica  Two successful people with Dyslexia that I knew: The first, a young Electronic Engineer I worked with, on a project involving Avionics for a Civil Turbojet aircraft. He had some difficulties, occasionally, reading or writing something. I think it was with writing and I helped him out a little on that several times. It would be interesting to know how he learned how to read and in what grade-level. The other man was an "Editor" for a major magazine related to  PC (Personal Computers). I don't know how he learned how to read either. (Everyone who writes for a magazine has the title "Editor"?)

 

I find your 20% of the population has Dyslexia much higher than I would have thought. If that is correct, then they should have been working on this many years ago.

 

Truly, reading gives us the power to learn. One can learn many things now, from videos, but the real power is being able to pick up a book and read it. Now, in 2017, that might be an eBook, but it is still a book with many printed words in it.  

 

I do not remember learning how to read, and I always was looking at books for students in higher grades, in the library, so I cannot imagine what it is like for someone to not be able to read, or read well, yet I know that is an incredibly common problem, and after reading your response, more common than I had imagined.

 

I still do not understand how it helps to promote someone to a higher grade level, if they have not mastered the material for the grade they are currently in.  

Edited March 9, 2017 by Lanny

[ElizabethB]

I have some graphs of the most recent stats for 4th and 8th grade students in my most recent YouTube video, closing the reading gap.  (Phonics seems to be even more important and gap closing for minority students.)

 

 

[ElizabethB]

 

 

I find your 20% of the population has Dyslexia much higher than I would have thought. If that is correct, then they should have been working on this many years ago.

 

 

There was a study in France that Geraldine Rodgers quoted about different percentages of "dyslexia" in schools in France that used syllabic phonics vs. the "global method" (the European name for sight word based methods.)  It was 20% vs. 2%.  A study of Italians taught with phonics found the number of dyslexic students at somewhere between 1% and 2%.  So, I believe the true dyslexic number is somewhere around there and the 20% number includes people impacted by poor methods that would be reading well otherwise.  99% of my remedial students have no underlying disability and and remediate quickly with nonsense words and syllable based phonics.  But, even my truly dyslexic students do well with syllable based explicit phonics with nonsense words.

[ElizabethB]

From my dyslexia page:

 

Dr. Reid Lyon, in his article "Reading Disabilities: Why Do Some Children Have Difficulty Learning to Read? What Can Be Done About It?" talks about phonics training and the prevention of reading failure through proper training: 

On the other hand, the early identification of children at-risk for reading failure coupled with the provision of comprehensive early reading interventions can reduce the percentage of children reading below the basic level in the fourth grade (i.e., 38%) to six percent or less....

These studies strongly suggest that such programs [systematic phonics] if implemented appropriately, could reduce the number of children who fail to learn to read well below the 38 % rate currently observed nationally. [4]

In France, it was proven that schools that taught with phonics produced less dyslexic students than schools that taught with whole word methods. Acording to Geraldine E. Rodgers,

However, the true sight-word method was generally discredited in Europe by the 1970's. Change was brought about by such things as those reported in a 1950 Enfance article. In France, 2% of dyslexic children were discovered in schools that used the phonics approach, but 20% of dyslexic children were discovered in schools that used the global [whole word] approach. [5]

 

[FaithManor]

Lanny, I too am not sure that social promotion in school is the answer. On the other hand, you cannot make kids and parents work towarsa catching up. In my local elementary, some of the kids would be licensed to drive a car and wanting to know if they can bring their dates to school for show and tell if they weren't moved up each year

 

 

Sigh...

 

That said at least in this disteict the vast majority of students that do not have significant LD's learn to read at a 6th/7th level at minimum. Not great but enough to build on in the future if motivated.

[Lecka]

On the bright side for 90-minute reading periods, kids probably do 10 different activities or spend a lot of that time actually reading.

 

My 2nd grader (my daughter) is a solid reader now and spends most of her time reading with a partner, trading back and forth reading one page each in a book they pick, while I assume the teacher is working with small groups or children still learning.

 

I think it is great for her! She enjoys it a lot!

 

So it is not like a 90 minute meeting.

 

I don't really know what else she does (we have just moved) but she is very engaged with the books she reads this way and she also gets to choose the book (for her half -- they do half reading a book they choose, half a book the partner chooses) and are allowed to pick a new partner everyday.

 

I do think of it was 90 minutes of sitting at a desk or just worksheets then it would be like a meeting, though.

[hepatica]

Dyslexia is not a disability. It is a different brain organization. There is no question dyslexic kids can be taught to read. And, the kind of systems ElizabethB is using are definitely a large part of the solution. The Barton system also relies heavily on nonsense words, in every single lesson. But, the fact that these kids can read, and can eventually read well, does not mean that they are not dyslexic. They are still using many more parts of their brain for reading than non-dyslexic readers (this can be seen on brain imaging). And, they still have a different brain organization, and will often read slower and more carefully even if they are reading well. And, they very frequently still struggle with handwriting and spelling.

 

So yes, if we were to teach differently we would have fewer struggling readers because we would be addressing the dyslexic students' needs earlier and more systematically. But, they would still be dyslexic.

 

And, just because a student is struggling with reading does not mean they have not "mastered" the material. There are lots of things to learn. Reading is just one thing. What about science and social studies and history and literature and geography and math and art and coding and music etc.... Should a nine year old really be in first or second grade with 5, 6 and 7 year olds in all these areas just because they haven't mastered reading? Not to mention the enormous stigma that is assigned to these kids. It is reprehensible and completely unnecessary. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by hepatica

[hepatica]

I just want to throw out another idea that relates to the OP. I think it is at least worth considering why we have decided that literacy is the most important academic skill. I understand that that is where we are as a society now( and this is just philosophical musing on my part, because there is no doubt the illiterate pay a high price in our current society), but the excessive emphasis on text is a very recent phenomenon (the bulk of the human population has only had access to text for a couple hundred years, if that), and I think the advent of new digital technologies may make this a very short-lived phenomenon. 

 

It is also clear from newer research on the brain and reading, that reading involves a trade off in the brain. We have no clearly evolved circuitry for reading in the brain, so the brain borrows circuitry formally used for other purposes in order to read efficiently. Some research has shown a clear trade-off in visual skills, such as facial recognition, when we become literate. This trade-off occurred even when illiterate adults learned to read. Their facial recognition skills diminished with literacy. The pattern recognition and visual skills of many dyslexics are phenomenal, and perhaps not something we would want to lose as a species. Sometimes I really wonder why it is necessary that we all be fluent and efficient readers. Just food for thought, and perhaps blasphemy on a classical education forum, but interesting to me. 

[Guest]

I will disagree. Literacy is not the most important academic skill. That would be thinking ability. Literacy is taught so the populace can communicate effectively, since we have so many from illiterate cultures who lack ability to communicate and we are so numerous that no one person has the time to communicate with everyone he wishes to comminucate with. Print is not leaving, because print is soo much faster than auditory ( even with the ability to speed up recordings) and an illustration speaks volumes. Live music will continue too.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sure, literacy is an important skill, whether it is the most important or not.  I'm sure that a 9th grader and her teachers are well aware if she has trouble with reading - whether it is because of an LD or social anxiety or whatever.  Someone suggested approaching this particular girl to offer tutoring.  My 9th grader would be beyond mortified if someone's mom approached her with such an offer.  And frankly, as her parent I would be affronted that someone would have "diagnosed" my daughter as needing help from listening to one in class reading session, and presumed to know what to do to fix it.  And if I heard that they were so emotionally involved that they were crying about it, well that would creep me out a bit too. 

 

Joining a tutoring program where students join on their own for help is a very good thing. 

[FaithManor]

Sure, literacy is an important skill, whether it is the most important or not.  I'm sure that a 9th grader and her teachers are well aware if she has trouble with reading - whether it is because of an LD or social anxiety or whatever.  Someone suggested approaching this particular girl to offer tutoring.  My 9th grader would be beyond mortified if someone's mom approached her with such an offer.  And frankly, as her parent I would be affronted that someone would have "diagnosed" my daughter as needing help from listening to one in class reading session, and presumed to know what to do to fix it.  And if I heard that they were so emotionally involved that they were crying about it, well that would creep me out a bit too. 

 

Joining a tutoring program where students join on their own for help is a very good thing. 

I agree completely.

[ElizabethB]

Literacy is more highly correlated than IQ with earnings.  They dropped the highest level of literacy, 12+ grade level (the top one is now approximately 10 - 12th grade level) in the most recent Adult literacy survey because only around 5% of all Americans and less than 1% of minorities were reading that well.  Here are the graphs showing literacy and earnings, then the percentages of Americans at each literacy level in the last two adult literacy surveys in 1992 and 2003 (it takes them 10 years or more to correlate and release the results.)  

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/litpercent.html

 

My remedial students all have very low self confidence because of their reading.  My favorite part of the remediation is seeing them change and become more self confident and optimistic as they learn to read well.  It is very sad, most of them could have avoided years of failure and self doubt if they had been taught well from the start.  

 

The current programs used in most schools do not teach all the phonics needed to sound out anything and also use a lot of sight words. The last good phonics program used in large numbers the public schools was the old Open Court.  Many private schools still use good programs but a lot are switching to common core compliant things that have a lot of sight words and incomplete phonics.  We have lived in dozens of school districts and I have only found one public school that was using a good phonics program--and the house prices for that elementary school were $100,000 more than for the rest of the schools in that district.  People saw the results and paid for it in house prices. (And, there were almost no reading problems at that school.  I got remedial students from other schools in the district and from one child that had transferred in from a school that taught with sight words.)

Edited March 10, 2017 by ElizabethB