Big Duggar news

[MercyA]

That is disgusting and unbiblical. What, do they think married people can't care for aged parents?   :confused:

 

I appreciate the time people have spent explaining Gothard teachings here on the forum. I have no problem with modesty, celibacy before marriage, or traditional marriage roles--in fact I support them--but Gothard's teachings are wacked out, twisted, and perverse. He seems completely lacking in wisdom and understanding. I hope people reject his teachings in droves. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by MercyA

[EMS83]

I think the problem is getting naked and such with someone you've never even had a single private conversation with. 

 

You know, I've done this, and I wasn't even married or intending to marry the guy...I'm not sure much of our culture would bat an eye at that.

 

ETA: I guess it depends on how one would define private, and if any level of quality were required though...

Edited March 6, 2017 by CES2005

[FaithManor]

That is disgusting and unbiblical. What, do they think married people can't care for aged parents?  :confused:

 

I appreciate the time people have spent explaining Gothard teachings here on the forum. I have no problem with modesty, celibacy before marriage, or traditional marriage roles--in fact I support them--but Gothard is / was a wacked out, twisted perv, lacking in wisdom and understanding. I hope people reject his teachings in droves. 

I think the issue with married children is that they can't control the wild card called "daughters in law", and sons are not expected in this paradigm to do care giving. Shoot, in many of these families boys can not be in the room when diapers are changed, and fathers are also not allowed to change diapers, take care of sick children, etc. because care giving is "women's work" so there is no concept of relying on a son to help. The son, as the authority over his wife, dictates what she can and can not do. So married daughters and daughters in law may not have permission or agency to care for aging parents. This makes grooming a child to be the maiden family nurse who can be counted on to not have a career or family to distract her from her responsibilities a vital necessity in their weird, irrational world.

 

It is not a new concept. Other societies have had similar rules. For many, it is the eldest boy, and there is no life circumstance he can encounter short of premature death, that would absolve him of the demand, bringing dishonor down on the family if he "shirks".

 

I can't say that this is what is happening to Jana. I can say that this is a strongly held belief within that religion. And Michelle has done things, said things, tht would fall in alignment with that such as when Jana expressed interest in having a career and it was soundly shot down, meanwhile no courtship or when Jana said she wanted to live ina city and her mother immediately cut her off and told the crowd that Jana just meant she wants to be close to a Walmart. She hasn't been so fast on tape to jump in and interrupt or clarify for Jill or Jessa or Jinger. So it does make me suspect that they may be following the teaching which means Jana is meant to inherit her parents as well as likely Josie who shows significant signs of developmental delays. My assumption though is that Josh will be required to provide the finances for her if Duggars do not leave money behind to care of Josie as that would be the "gothard way".

[ktgrok]

You know, I've done this, and I wasn't even married or intending to marry the guy...I'm not sure much of our culture would bat an eye at that.

 

Maybe. I can't think of anyone I know of, unless they were very drunk. And the Duggars don't drink :)

[maize]

The thought of Jana not even being given the chance to court and possibly marry and start her own family is very disturbing.

 

I'm quite curious (in a sad way) to see how things play out with the various kids over the years. No way is the script going to go as written for all of them. Hopefully at least a few will eventually break free from Gothardism. (Autocorrect wanted to change that last word to Higher Risk...sort of appropriate)

[Annie G]

 

 

I can't say that this is what is happening to Jana. I can say that this is a strongly held belief within that religion. And Michelle has done things, said things, tht would fall in alignment with that such as when Jana expressed interest in having a career and it was soundly shot down, meanwhile no courtship or when Jana said she wanted to live ina city and her mother immediately cut her off and told the crowd that Jana just meant she wants to be close to a Walmart. She hasn't been so fast on tape to jump in and interrupt or clarify for Jill or Jessa or Jinger. So it does make me suspect that they may be following the teaching which means Jana is meant to inherit her parents as well as likely Josie who shows significant signs of developmental delays. My assumption though is that Josh will be required to provide the finances for her if Duggars do not leave money behind to care of Josie as that would be the "gothard way".

 

I think the 'city living really means close to Walmart' was Jinger, not Jana.  I clearly have too much time on my hands...I read Free Jinger. 

[MrsMommy]

I think the 'city living really means close to Walmart' was Jinger, not Jana.  I clearly have too much time on my hands...I read Free Jinger. 

 

I think you're correct...I read Free Jinger, too! :)

[DesertBlossom]

You know, I've done this, and I wasn't even married or intending to marry the guy...I'm not sure much of our culture would bat an eye at that.

 

ETA: I guess it depends on how one would define private, and if any level of quality were required though...

Well, sure, casual hookups are much more common in our culture. But I would think that people inclined to engage in casual hookups have also had some kind of intimate experience with someone before. These girls go from zero physical intimacy at all with anyone ever to honeymoon in one day. That seems like it would make the honeymoon especially difficult and awkward.

[EMS83]

Maybe. I can't think of anyone I know of, unless they were very drunk. And the Duggars don't drink :)

 

Alcohol isn't always a factor, but true they don't drink.  I technically agree with your point, really; sleeping with virtual strangers is inadvisable (in my opinion and experience).  I'm just curious why in our larger society, sleeping with a stranger one isn't married to is fine, but sleeping with a stranger who is your spouse is bad?  Weird, I'll grant.  But why worse?  And would it make it any more palatable if the unacquainted spouses got to know each other before consummating their marriage?  Not that it's our business, but theoretically?

 

I'm not picking on you at all, kt.  Your post just kind of sparked my musing.  :)

 

And just for the record, I'm not a Duggar fan, but neither do I have a blanket aversion to several components of their lives--courtship, arranged marriage, traditional marriage roles, modesty, etc.  The context would affect whether I could personally embrace a version of any one of those.  Autonomy is highly important to me, as well.

[FaithManor]

Alcohol isn't always a factor, but true they don't drink.  I technically agree with your point, really; sleeping with virtual strangers is inadvisable (in my opinion and experience).  I'm just curious why in our larger society, sleeping with a stranger one isn't married to is fine, but sleeping with a stranger who is your spouse is bad?  Weird, I'll grant.  But why worse?  

Because a one night stand is not a life time. A one night stand is not a legal contract. So for better or for worse, and particularly in the context of this religious sect, women are traded off without any personal knowledge of the person they are expected to be hitched to forever.

 

And again, what people bring up more in this thread is the context which is ZERO intimacy. That means they can't even have a private email, a private telephone calls, a text. nothing. The accountability buddy/sibling must hear EVERYTHING. That doesn't bode well for actually getting to know the person you are supposed to spend the rest of your life with before saying I Do.

 

That's the objection. I know plenty of people who were celibate prior to marriage and not big make out people before the day. The difference was they dated, they went out, they had conversations that others weren't privy to, and they weren't being forced into anything due to the dictates of their religion. Duggar girls have no choice. Gothardism preaches that women have NO agency. None. No choices. No money. Nothing. They are the property of the father until such time as he chooses to discharge his property to a husband.

 

It is the unhealthiness of the whole thing that is the cause for concern. There is a Gothard church near here. We run into these families on a regular basis. The young adults are profoundly, emotionally stunted in development by the tight, crazy domination by the parents. Remember these are kids raised in a religious paradigm in which it is considered a "sin" to not smile. no joke. And when I say sin, I mean a beating offense. That's right. The parent is to whip the child repeatedly until the child learns to never have any other "countenance" but "joy". No negative emotions are allowed. So how can one expect that these girls could ever properly process any concern they might have about the property owner their father has chosen for them?

 

I am not exaggerating about the beating. The gothard method is that children must be hit with very hard strikes with a paddle, belt, or board until such time as the child no longer even cries but lays limp across the lap, fully submitted to the beating.

 

The whole paradigm of abuse taken in context with their extreme courtship should be a huge cause for concern and outrage in any community.

 

This is also the religion that wants to bring back execution for homosexual people, and has given money to groups that support this including the country of Uganda to help get legislation passed there to make it legal to torture and murder gay people.

 

My family helped 13 families, and more individuals leave Dominionism/Gothardism. The horror stories are beyond what can even be related here. The trigger warnings I'd have to leave in the thread title would be staggering. It is evil, pure evil.

 

And that is the religion in which the Duggar kids have been raised, the religious camps they've been sent to, and their crowning achievement being named the poster family for the religion by none other than Mr. Pervert himself, Bill Gothard. One does not get that accolade without adhering to the tenets of the faith with due zeal and fervor.

Edited March 6, 2017 by FaithManor

[maize]

I can't like your post Faith but I appreciate it and other posts you have made over the years exposing the evil of this cult.

[Frances]

Alcohol isn't always a factor, but true they don't drink. I technically agree with your point, really; sleeping with virtual strangers is inadvisable (in my opinion and experience). I'm just curious why in our larger society, sleeping with a stranger one isn't married to is fine, but sleeping with a stranger who is your spouse is bad? Weird, I'll grant. But why worse? And would it make it any more palatable if the unacquainted spouses got to know each other before consummating their marriage? Not that it's our business, but theoretically?

 

I'm not picking on you at all, kt. Your post just kind of sparked my musing. :)

 

And just for the record, I'm not a Duggar fan, but neither do I have a blanket aversion to several components of their lives--courtship, arranged marriage, traditional marriage roles, modesty, etc. The context would affect whether I could personally embrace a version of any one of those. Autonomy is highly important to me, as well.

For me personally, I would be uncomfortable with either situation. And I'm not sure that I would agree that in our culture most people think sleeping with a virtual stranger is fine. Sure, we see it all of the time in movies and TV shows, but I don't think the mainstream view is that it's a good idea.

 

And for me, I could much more understand the whole Duggar type thing if the couple made the decisions themselves and kept them private, instead of it being some sort of purity contest or forced "choice". As noted in previous comments, patriarchical cultures that have this type of expectation are often bad for women in many ways. And I would certainly hope the couple doesn't feel any pressure to go from zero to sixty on their wedding night. If that's what both individuals want, fine.

[FaithManor]

For me personally, I would be uncomfortable with either situation. And I'm not sure that I would agree that in our culture most people think sleeping with a virtual stranger is fine. Sure, we see it all of the time in movies and TV shows, but I don't think the mainstream view is that it's a good idea.

 

And for me, I could much more understand the whole Duggar type thing if the couple made the decisions themselves and kept them private, instead of it being some sort of purity contest or forced "choice". As noted in previous comments, patriarchical cultures that have this type of expectation are often bad for women in many ways. And I would certainly hope the couple doesn't feel any pressure to go from zero to sixty on their wedding night. If that's what both individuals want, fine.

Well, traditionally in arranged marriages, and within the purity movement, the expectation is that the wife has her marital duties to perform and MUST do it. If one listens to Doug Wilson of ChristChurch, Moscow, Idaho, one would learn that marital rape is encouraged if the bride is nervous because the man has a right to take what is his, and women have a "need" to be conquered.

 

He's another dominionist, and while not personally accused of perversion, arranged the marriage of a 22 year old woman in his church to a confessed, multi-victim pedophile - a pedo that DW actually tried to hide from authorities and housed with a church family who had a 13 year old daughter despite knowing he'd already served time for child rape  - and who since then has had a child with little wife whom he admitted molesting by the time the little boy was only 18 months old. DW is supportive of Bill Gothard.

 

So I am ALL in favor of these young adults doing what is best for them, and if it is best to take it slow, then by all means, take it slow. But that is not what it taught or preached, and there is a VERY clear edict that the marriage must be consummated on the day, and that the faithful are pregnant very, very soon after the wedding. That doesn't sound lie the kind of environment in which a young, naive woman who has been entirely physically and emotionally dominated by her father and preached these things from a young age would feel she has the right to say, "Uhm...not tonight darling."

[MercyA]

There is a Gothard church near here. We run into these families on a regular basis.

 

Do you happen to know if this teaching is popular in Arizona? What about Indiana? I am asking because I know a family who may have been affected by this wretched system.  :(

Edited March 6, 2017 by MercyA

[MedicMom]

Do you happen to know if this teaching is popular in Arizona? What about Indiana? I am asking because I know a family who may have been affected by this wretched system. :(

 

Please don't quote.

I think it's fairly widely distributed across the country. I've lived in various parts of upstate New York all my life and have run into Gothardites everywhere, all the way back to 1985. The first family doctor I chose after my oldest was born even turned out to be a Gothard follower.

[FaithManor]

Indiana has been, in the past, a strong hold. Gothard has Youth Institute or should I say "beat the devil out of them, starve them if you have to" reform school in Indianapolis and until the city got into an uproar over the rampant physical and sexual abuse in the institution and the fact that a local family court judge just loved sending kids there which meant public money was being used to support the place, it was a real hotbed. His reputation in the state has taken a beating. Now that being said, a certain someone who for board rules shall remain nameless, believes that one can cure "gay" with electroshock therapy, and he didn't get that idea on his own...BG is a big believer in it and has influenced numerous politicians in the Bible Belt and Midwest.

 

 

 

Arizona not so much. Texas has a strong hold area around the "Alert" camp which is his boys training camp. You don't really want to know what goes on there. It is pretty disgusting.

 

Oh and the Indianapolis facility? Men can have their wives sent there to be "instructed" when not submissive enough, and the staff thinks nothing of holding an adult against her will. Some of the escape stories are absolutely chilling, and a few were published though not in entirety mostly alluded to in order to protect people, in the book "A Matter of Basic Principles".

 

Flint, Michigan ran him out on a rail. He bought the old Hilton in downtown and was going to renovate it into a conference center and another youth "training" facility. When it happened, people "in the know" went crazy on the city just crazy. I think there would have been a riot in the streets if it had opened! They tied him up so much with red tape, and refusing to approve his plans, that he eventually gave up. The building is still empty, and it has been many years.

[EMS83]

I hear you Faith; I'm not defending that ideology.  Only pointing out that the knife cuts both ways with the sudden intimacy issue (because there's always a first time and the whole gradual work up thing just doesn't always happen), and also that just because some practices are abused by some people doesn't make the practice itself bad.  That's all.  I'm using a very, very broad context when I use terms like modesty and arranged marriage and courtship--these have taken many forms across many cultures and centuries.  I can't say these things are all bad at all times and in all places because we've got a guy with several screws loose making people's life hell.  In short, I'm a fan of trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.   :)

 

 

Frances, on 05 Mar 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

For me personally, I would be uncomfortable with either situation. And I'm not sure that I would agree that in our culture most people think sleeping with a virtual stranger is fine. Sure, we see it all of the time in movies and TV shows, but I don't think the mainstream view is that it's a good idea.

 

I would be uncomfortable too, now.   :glare:  By "fine" I meant it doesn't raise brows or draw criticism like arranged marriage/celibacy/etc., if that helps.  And like I alluded to, I guess the next question is how well is well enough to know someone?  I hope you're right and the mainstream view does not approve, but I'm dubious.  I admit, though, both to not having canvassed the nation on the subject and to having once kept the sort of company that might skew my perspective.   :o

Edited March 6, 2017 by CES2005

[StaceyinLA]

That is disgusting and unbiblical. What, do they think married people can't care for aged parents? :confused:

 

I appreciate the time people have spent explaining Gothard teachings here on the forum. I have no problem with modesty, celibacy before marriage, or traditional marriage roles--in fact I support them--but Gothard's teachings are wacked out, twisted, and perverse. He seems completely lacking in wisdom and understanding. I hope people reject his teachings in droves.

What's the most wacked out to me about all his "teachings" regarding marriage and family, is that he has never been married. People get all up in arms about Catholic priests never marrying (people who aren't Catholic obviously), but THIS is acceptable from uber conservatives? The man has molested teenage girls. I just can't get how people could buy into a single word he says.

 

That being said, the Duggars still fascinate me and I watch them weekly. There are times when I really feel sad for them, and other times I am hopeful for some that they'll at least branch out once they are on their own (although they'd likely be shunned by their father).

 

I think Jinger was certainly ready for her marriage and told her sisters to come visit, but to "wait 6 months," as they were keeping the doors locked til then. Good for her.

 

Oh, and I also noticed that she wore a long tunic with some leggings on the honeymoon trip. There is hope for her yet!

 

I also watch the Bates family, and they certainly have a little more leniency in their behaviors. The oldest son admitted he and his wife kissed before marriage. His wife recently had on jeans in a family pic. Another Bates daughter has posted pics of herself in jeans multiple times. I at least feel like they have their own minds, and the parents don't seem nearly as judgy.

 

I certainly have no issue with purity and people dressing modestly; I just think it should be of ones' own conviction and choosing and not based on another human's demands.

[IfIOnly]

Because of this thread, a headline about Jana Duggar caught my attention, and I read the article. In her own words, it just sounds like she hasn't met the right one yet, though she's had interest from guys. https://www.yahoo.com/news/could-jana-duggar-secretly-courting-145824103.html

[Guest]

Because of this thread, a headline about Jana Duggar caught my attention, and I read the article. In her own words, it just sounds like she hasn't met the right one yet, though she's had interest from guys. https://www.yahoo.com/news/could-jana-duggar-secretly-courting-145824103.html

I actually think it's conspicuous at this point, that Josh is the only boy who has married.

[Guest]

I think the issue with married children is that they can't control the wild card called "daughters in law", and sons are not expected in this paradigm to do care giving. Shoot, in many of these families boys can not be in the room when diapers are changed, and fathers are also not allowed to change diapers, take care of sick children, etc. because care giving is "women's work" so there is no concept of relying on a son to help. The son, as the authority over his wife, dictates what she can and can not do. So married daughters and daughters in law may not have permission or agency to care for aging parents. This makes grooming a child to be the maiden family nurse who can be counted on to not have a career or family to distract her from her responsibilities a vital necessity in their weird, irrational world.

 

It is not a new concept. Other societies have had similar rules. For many, it is the eldest boy, and there is no life circumstance he can encounter short of premature death, that would absolve him of the demand, bringing dishonor down on the family if he "shirks".

 

I can't say that this is what is happening to Jana. I can say that this is a strongly held belief within that religion. And Michelle has done things, said things, tht would fall in alignment with that such as when Jana expressed interest in having a career and it was soundly shot down, meanwhile no courtship or when Jana said she wanted to live ina city and her mother immediately cut her off and told the crowd that Jana just meant she wants to be close to a Walmart. She hasn't been so fast on tape to jump in and interrupt or clarify for Jill or Jessa or Jinger. So it does make me suspect that they may be following the teaching which means Jana is meant to inherit her parents as well as likely Josie who shows significant signs of developmental delays. My assumption though is that Josh will be required to provide the finances for her if Duggars do not leave money behind to care of Josie as that would be the "gothard way".

Not to contradict your whole post, because I do believe you may have the measure of what's going on with Jana, but it was Jinger who said she wanted to live in a city, even NYC, that Michelle "clarified" as meaning she wanted to live near a Walmart. (Unless there is another instance where Jana said this also and was contradicted as well.)

 

I have thought it possible that Jana does not want to marry; I have thought that about John-David as well. I definitely would have been reluctant to marry if I would have thought it immediately follows that I get on the baby train and stay on it until menopause. I have mused before that John may have looked at Josh (I mean before the scandals) and thought - not that appealing. Babies to follow in possibly (probably) rapid succession; needing to financially solely provide for a multiplying brood without higher (real) education/degrees.

 

When I read their first book (before the scandals, when I still kind of admired them), reading about the way they were living in those early years made me say, "no way. No way would I go on with this lifestyle." They were living with (can't remember exactly) five or six little kids in a used car lot building with no yard. They had no health insurance. JB worked 3 jobs at one point, including being on-call 24 hours a day for the towing service. That's extremely unappealing to me and it's probably just the tip of the iceberg as to their living conditions at that time. I grew up relatively poor, and I don't want to repeat that experience. It's kind of ironic, in a way, that they put those stories in their first book because I would think it would be a strong deterrant to living that way of life for anyone reading the book not already living that way.

[gardenmom5]

I have not read a statement from her or her parents to this effect. However it is the teaching of Bill Got hard that families with multiple daughters designate the eldest for this. A local got hard family has done this. They have three daughters and two sons. The eldest girl is allowed no privileges or outside access compared to the other four as she is required to remain at home forever with the eldest boy understanding that it is his responsibility to care for his maiden sister when mum and dad are gone.

 

The young lady, according to people who attend church with t he family, is very depressed, very under educated in order to keep her under their thumb. She took a beating at 17 for writing a letter to a boy in the youth group. The substance of the letter was curiosity. What is it like to drive a car or ride a bike or go to a friend's house or talk to other girls. Very sad, very sad.

 

how despicable to hold her back that way.  and the beating . . . . yeah. like that's christian.  not.

 

that man.  ugh.  he is so warped.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Let them choose what they want to choose.  The only peeve I have is when people like that are judgmental and holier than thou towards others.  The few people who have pulled that on me have turned out to be total hypocrites. I remember visiting a super conservative youth group in middle school with a friend (it was her church) and the youth pastor's wife made an open humiliating comment about the fact that I was wearing jeans.  I was Christian, confident in my relationship with God, but her comment made it clear and obvious that she didn't think I could be a christian and wear jeans.  Two months later my friend was upset because it was found out that this same lady was having an affair with an elder in the church.  It just flabbergasts me, the hypocrisy of some people. To be fair, I have never watched a single episode of the Duggars.  I don't know what they are like and I don't judge them personally as long as they don't judge me  :lol:  I am sure not all super conservative people are hypocrites .... surely they aren't, but my experiences in this area haven't been positive. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Attolia

[gardenmom5]

Because a one night stand is not a life time. A one night stand is not a legal contract. So for better or for worse, and particularly in the context of this religious sect, women are traded off without any personal knowledge of the person they are expected to be hitched to forever.

 

And again, what people bring up more in this thread is the context which is ZERO intimacy. That means they can't even have a private email, a private telephone calls, a text. nothing. The accountability buddy/sibling must hear EVERYTHING. That doesn't bode well for actually getting to know the person you are supposed to spend the rest of your life with before saying I Do.

 

the reason was different - but queen victoria was raised similarly. zero alone time.  her mother controlled everything - even demanding she sleep in her room.  never allowed to be alone, and those with her were of her mother's choosing.  she had no say in anything.

 

the day she became queen - she had servants who saw her as queen - and ignored her mother's instructions regarding her.  then everything changed and she broke out of what had been a gilded cage - but it really affected her.

 

[Crimson Wife]

Because of this thread, a headline about Jana Duggar caught my attention, and I read the article. In her own words, it just sounds like she hasn't met the right one yet, though she's had interest from guys. https://www.yahoo.com/news/could-jana-duggar-secretly-courting-145824103.html

 

Do we trust Jana to speak forthrightly rather than what she is "supposed" to think? JB may be feeding her a line about not having received any good courtship offers simply to keep her single.

 

[maize]

Do we trust Jana to speak forthrightly rather than what she is "supposed" to think? JB may be feeding her a line about not having received any good courtship offers simply to keep her single.

 

I wondered the same thing.

 

They are quite media savvy at this point, I expect them to hide stuff they know would be damaging to their public image.

[BusyMom5]

I watch the Duggars with fascination- I cannot wrap my head around the courtship thing.  If you want to not have sex until you are married, that's perfectly fine!  But the way they do it- having to have a sibbling there at all times, no private conversations, everything heavily monitored- IMO makes sex to be a much bigger deal than it really is.  Those teaching tell girls that boys are just waiting to jump on them as soon as they don't have a chaparone- and it teaches boys that it's okay to treat your wife like a sex toy- that's what she's there for!  To have sex with you and have your babies.  This is such a dangerous message!  I hope that many of the kids can eventually break away from the teachings of their parents- hopefully with Jinger hours away she will have a chance.  I find it incredibly creepy how the dad is so involved in their relationships- just creepy! 

 

And don't even get me started on the whole Josh and Anna thing- that poor woman!  She needs saved! 

 

I do think Jana is the old maid sister, and I think they made her that way on purpose.  She is the 'mother' of that house, and JB does not want her to leave.  THe other daughters were not nearly as capable at running the household from what I could tell- Jana does the most home-making activities.

 

 

[lauraw4321]

I typed a whole response and it disappeared. And now I'm rather ashamed of myself to be typing another response, but here goes. I have some (not very fact-based) opinions about Jana.  First, I think that she was involved in a failed courtship (or almost-courtship) before any of her sisters were married.  There was an episode (pre-scandal) where they asked all the sisters if there was "anyone special" in their lives, and it looks like Jana says "well there used to be..."

 

Next, I think she has a very strong protective drive over Josie.  She's Josie's "buddy" (aka mom) and Josie is fragile.  There's an episode where she has a seizure and it's Jana who is dealing with it (mom and dad were at a conference). I think that Jana loves her like a daughter and worries about her wellbeing if she weren't there to protect her.

 

Finally, I think that the molestation of her sisters deeply affected her. I think that she is a very responsible and caring person by nature, and that she likely feels responsibility to keep her remaining siblings safe from abuse. I do think that she will eventually marry, but not until Josie is approaching teen years.

[Guest]

I typed a whole response and it disappeared. And now I'm rather ashamed of myself to be typing another response, but here goes. I have some (not very fact-based) opinions about Jana. First, I think that she was involved in a failed courtship (or almost-courtship) before any of her sisters were married. There was an episode (pre-scandal) where they asked all the sisters if there was "anyone special" in their lives, and it looks like Jana says "well there used to be..."

 

Next, I think she has a very strong protective drive over Josie. She's Josie's "buddy" (aka mom) and Josie is fragile. There's an episode where she has a seizure and it's Jana who is dealing with it (mom and dad were at a conference). I think that Jana loves her like a daughter and worries about her wellbeing if she weren't there to protect her.

 

Finally, I think that the molestation of her sisters deeply affected her. I think that she is a very responsible and caring person by nature, and that she likely feels responsibility to keep her remaining siblings safe from abuse. I do think that she will eventually marry, but not until Josie is approaching teen years.

Well, time will tell what happens with Jana, but within that cult(ure), being an older woman marrying is frowned-upon. For one thing, the availability of "appropriate" mates goes down the older a young woman becomes (in that cult-ure). For two, getting married late puts a big damper on bearing lots of children. So, I can't really see her simply putting marriage off because she wants to care for Josie and other kids, because she would have to realize that she was conceeding to not have a family of her own. In more "normal" families, parents may certainly say to their daughters, "don't rush off to get married; there's no hurry." But in that cult(ure), the parents are very unlikely to say that. They esteem young marriage and do want them to pick promptly.

[lauraw4321]

Well, time will tell what happens with Jana, but within that cult(ure), being an older woman marrying is frowned-upon. For one thing, the availability of "appropriate" mates goes down the older a young woman becomes (in that cult-ure). For two, getting married late puts a big damper on bearing lots of children. So, I can't really see her simply putting marriage off because she wants to care for Josie and other kids, because she would have to realize that she was conceeding to not have a family of her own. In more "normal" families, parents may certainly say to their daughters, "don't rush off to get married; there's no hurry." But in that cult(ure), the parents are very unlikely to say that. They esteem young marriage and do want them to pick promptly.

 

I absolutely hear what you are saying, but I think that she is still fundie-royalty enough that there will be someone who wants to marry her. And given her own mother's fertility, she will likely be able to have children in her late 30's, early 40's. I think that she is knowingly sacrificing her married time in favor of protecting and mothering her children.

[Guest]

I absolutely hear what you are saying, but I think that she is still fundie-royalty enough that there will be someone who wants to marry her. And given her own mother's fertility, she will likely be able to have children in her late 30's, early 40's. I think that she is knowingly sacrificing her married time in favor of protecting and mothering her children.

Like I said, time will tell. I just don't think it's that probable. The ultra-conservative pool of potential mates is small to begin with; that pool gets smaller and smaller as the eligible guys marry young.

 

Personally, staying celebate until I'm 30 was never a goal of mine, so I'm not entirely certain how any person with normal desires does go along with a plan like that, but maybe I'm just too carnal. ðŸ˜

[Katy]

Do we trust Jana to speak forthrightly rather than what she is "supposed" to think? JB may be feeding her a line about not having received any good courtship offers simply to keep her single.

 

 

A few years back the rumor on Free Jinger was that the reason Jana was sent repeatedly to Journey to the Heart (it's their reprogramming camp), is that she was upset that her parents wouldn't let her court someone they deemed inappropriate.  The reason was never specified.  Was he actually inappropriate?  Did they just refuse to let her marry, full stop?  I'm starting to suspect the latter because it's quite clear the other girls have married men who may be conservative independent baptist, but are not in the Gothard fold.

 

This season, there have been numerous episodes featuring Christian rap (with a back beat!), Oklahoma State homecoming, women wearing tight skirts that show their knees when the sit down, etc.

 

IDK if this is all true in terms of Jana, but if I had to bet I'd bet it is.  I've seen too many rumors on FJ confirmed over the years, including the Josh scandals, to not think that some of the people on it who claim to have been to their church actually do know them.

 

 

As to the boys not being married, I'm thinking it's not only a financial thing, it's a there's no need to marry unless we catch you in sexual sin thing. The whole best to stay single, but better to marry than to burn with lust.

 

It's a twisted way to live.

[Guest]

As to the boys not being married, I'm thinking it's not only a financial thing, it's a there's no need to marry unless we catch you in sexual sin thing. The whole best to stay single, but better to marry than to burn with lust.

But seriously, who wants their kids to be perpetual virgins? Not to mention just sort of permanently camped out at the parent's home? Most parents I know would consider it a bad parenting outcome to have a bunch of twenty-some yo adult kids living at home, dabbling at various business gigs that don't require degrees and not showing any signs of launching. I love my children desperately, but I want them to launch.

[UmMusa]

I just opened Facebook to see a headline that Joseph is courting!!!

[Alessandra]

I can't like your post Faith but I appreciate it and other posts you have made over the years exposing the evil of this cult.

Same here. I like that you share, Faith, but am horrified by what you have to say.

[ktgrok]

I think Jana may be HOPING to marry late and not have a zillion kids, given that she's already spent most of her life caring for children and running a household. 

[FaithManor]

I wondered the same thing.

 

They are quite media savvy at this point, I expect them to hide stuff they know would be damaging to their public image.

And especially so since Family Values Lobbyist Josh got caught on Ashley Madison and with a prostitute after the molestation came out.

 

They have some SERIOUS image rebuilding to do in order to keep the gravy train going.

[Hyacinth]

Faith, do you have links re: Doug Wilson and his support of Gothard? (I'm not doubting you, but I have friends who are quite fond of DW's writings and might be surprised by this.)

 

And put me in the camp with those who greatly appreciate your input on these threads.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Hyacinth

[FaithManor]

But seriously, who wants their kids to be perpetual virgins? Not to mention just sort of permanently camped out at the parent's home? Most parents I know would consider it a bad parenting outcome to have a bunch of twenty-some yo adult kids living at home, dabbling at various business gigs that don't require degrees and not showing any signs of launching. I love my children desperately, but I want them to launch.

That's because you are a normal person who hasn't been taken in by a cult.

 

Remember in cult world, the adult boys are to help run daddy business and make money for daddy. So if daddy business doesn't make enough to support a bunch of married boys with big families, it is a real problem. At the local Gothard church, there are three phenomenon, A. marrying off all of the daughters but the eldest fairly young. B. None of the young adult males from the congregation marrying, and from appearances, it is because the family business doesn't make enough money to support another family which means the dads go looking for mates for their kids in places like IFB churches because while not necessarily Gothard, they are very fundamentalist so close to comfort zone, or sometimes easily converted over. C. Some of the young men going "HAAAAAY NO!", going off to college or trade school on their own, forsaking the cult, and when they marry, it is their own choice outside the cult, outside mom and dad's authority. They are usually shunned for this which is very sad.  And yes, Gothardites practice a type of shunning/excommunication.

 

Doug Phillips, who believes the same thing, has a son Joshua who is 24 going on 25, and then three other kids who are also adults. No marriages.

 

Phillips is just his own brand of crazy, and I suspect since his fall from grace, he has circled the wagons, and likely the people who he would be willing to marry his kids off to are not interested given the dad's perversions and the mother's legendary tantrums in defense of her husband's perversions. It isn't like anyone wants to hitch their wagons to that mess. 

 

I was actually shocked just a little after the Ashley Madison thing, the drama over Josh going for faux rehab, the hiding out of Anna at the mountain cabin, the prostitute - that case is moving forward and from what I've read of the legal briefs, I do not think he is going to come out to well on that - and then the molestation, that Vuolo or anyone else would come knocking on the courtship door. I kind of thought people would stay away from them.

 

I thought wrong. And that alone makes me a little concerned about Jinger because on the one hand she might have landed some guy who just thinks she is the cat's meow, couldn't wait to spend the rest of his life with her, and wanted to liberate her from the crazy, but on the other hand, it could be a sign of him being a not so good person. If you think about it, you see a family that hides their molesting son from authorities, gets no one professional counseling, smack talks about the non-related victim he molested, hides the younger children out from child and family services well child check, gets son "counseling" from a police officer who had already confessed to the congregation that he was addicted to child porn and who had already been charged, later being sentenced to 56 years in prison, sends their clearly disturbed son away to "pray the problem away" instead of to a sex addiction counselor, prevents Anna from  having contact with her siblings once it was determined that they wanted to come and get her and the children away from JB, makes the girls go for "counseling" at Journey of the Heart Camp where they are told that all sexual sin is the fault of the girl for tempting the poor poor boy and that they have to go home and beg his forgiveness for "defrauding" him and then confess their sin in church, and.....

 

I have to hope it is number one. But part of me, knowing that the young man was raised not Gothard but Dominionist AKA very similar to Boerne Christian Assembly/Doug Phillips, is number two....hitching himself to someone he knows he can dominate and control utterly because she's been raised to think she doesn't get a say in her life simply because of her gender.

 

Very scary. I really, really hope that is not it! Its just I've seen how this goes down in Gothard world and my hope is dim.

 

If Jana is not being groomed for maidenhood, but holding out and refusing to cooperate in courtship, I hope she can stand firm.

[FaithManor]

Faith, do you have links re: Doug Wilson and his support of Gothard? (I'm not doubting you, but I have friends who are quite fond of DW's writings and might be surprised by this.)

 

And put me in the camp with those who greatly appreciate your input on these threads.

You know. I used to have links. On the old boards, I posted them once.

 

I can't say that I still have them though. My old Windows 7 computer died a bad death, and not everything could be saved off the hard drive to my new laptop.

 

Hmmm....if I have time, I'll see if dh managed to get that file. I can't take the time now because I am babysitting a cocker spaniel that ate something that didn't disagree with him, got gastro-enteritis, and is miserable and sick laying her next to my chair where every half hour or so I have to clean up his mess. Sigh....I hate cleaning up bodily fluids. I am not a good nurse. Never have been. To do it for the dog completely grosses me out so I am in a very bad mood. LOL, I don't have the patience to go do a hard drive search for a file whose name I don't exactly remember!

 

If she searches recovering grace, she might find the blog in which DW responded to the Gothard thing and basically called all the victims a bunch of not nice things!