want a hug . . .

[gardenmom5]

my neice had dinner with her father - my brother - and posted about the upsetting evening on facebook.  (she says he told her she was a loser and to f-off.  he denies it.  I believe her.) I agreed he's been insufferable since he was a teen. 

 

he's now angry, and posting "pious" admonitions for everyone to be nice (sounds good. why don't YOU 'be nice'?) - after all, facebook is (gasp) *public*.   He's sending me rants on my private e-mail about how he expected better from me.  I've learned - to deal with him, the ONLY way is to go on the offensive.  I did send him back a "you did this and this and this" when you were a teen (reminding him of trying to force me to use drugs, to his friend who was in our house on his invitation and repeatedly tried to seduce me when I was FIFTEEN.  I had to stay in my room to feel safe.).    I did add and you did "__ to mother right before she died.  she was so upset, she started a conversation with me. it was the last conversation we had. and you tried to do the same thing to me while she was unconscious on life-support in the hospital."  I expect I will either hear denials, or nothing.

 

I've hardly mentioned him outside of he's insufferable and I'm wondering about his mental state due to the conspiracy theories he's sucking up.  (e.g. of one he shared with me- CERN scientists opening a door to an alternate dimension and now they're on the run from men in black helicopters.)  she shared things that indicate it may be worse than even I realized.

 

I did recommend my niece read up on parents with narcissistic personality disorder and boundaries by townsend and cloud. I explained how I had applied some of the things I learned to my relationship with my grandmother.

 

so - can I have a hug?   it's been a busy day  (and dh has been watching football.) . . .and dealing with the jerk on top  of everything else.

 

eta: the cern thing . . . was someone's really bad attempt at a work-in-progress sci-fi novel.  which was easily discovered by anyone just searching the names.

Edited January 3, 2017 by gardenmom5

[NorthwestMom]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[zoobie]

:grouphug:

 

Niece needs some FB selective group blocking skills!

[maize]

Hugs to both you and your niece.

 

It does sound like he might be on unstable mental footings...but I'm guessing there's nothing you or anyone else can do about that.

[bettyandbob]

((hugs))

 

Is niece an adult. Is she financially independent of her dad.

 

I'd probably advise her to block him (you probably should as well). She can tell him he can text or email her. He may like the public Facebook didpute, but I'd avoid them.

[gardenmom5]

her parents divorced  when she was a baby.   

she had blocked contact with him for five years - but was trying to have a relationship again.  she graduated from college last spring, and is working in her preferred position. - and he's telling her she's a loser. . . .

 

I don't feel it is my place to tell her what to do - just to try and give her tools so she has a grasp of what her options really are. - that boundaries aren't all or nothing.  (and possibly why he is the way he is.  doesn't make it easier per se, but it can help to understand so you know YOU aren't crazy.)

 

my grandmother was likely npd/related.  that where I learned all of this . . .

[gardenmom5]

Hugs to both you and your niece.

 

It does sound like he might be on unstable mental footings...but I'm guessing there's nothing you or anyone else can do about that.

 

yep.  kinda what I've thought since I started noticing it.  nothing I can do.  he denied our mother was schizophrenic (actually - there is no such thing as schizophrenia), and during the time he was supposed to be caretaking her in his area - he did NOT get her a new psychiatrist to prescribe her medication.  so, she wasn't getting her rx for months before it was discovered.  (she had previously been in charge of her own rx.)

[Charlie]

That sounds rough. I just read somewhere that when you stop letting a controller control you, they start to control how others think about you. Just supporting your niece as she discovers how to stand her ground probably helps a lot. Sorry about the declining mental health. That's scary to watch.

[Tanaqui]

*hugs*

 

Your poor niece. At least she doesn't have to live with him.

[Hypatia.]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:   I think your reading recommendations were great.

[MomatHWTK]

My parent's behavior took a significant turn for the worse after she had an artery blockage. I can't remember the medical term, but half her brain was down to 10% blood flow. The issue was detected and fixed. But, I think there was permanent brain damage. (But- the person won't get help or investigate the damage. So there we are.) Borderline personality disorder is another avenue to investigate. 

 

If I were your niece, I would just not engage.Talk to friends in private. (i.e. Don't feed the troll.) 

[Barb_]

Yes. Hugs coming your way to you and your niece. So sorry.

[happi duck]

(hugs)

[Anne in CA]

Huggggsssss. I'm so sorry. I'm also sorry there is no alternate dimension. Maybe soon?

[Amira]

:grouphug:

[displace]

Hugs

[gardenmom5]

he wrote back.  I have a problem and need to learn to "let go".

 

he asked . . . .

 

I've come far enough - I don't care about his opinion. actually -- it's the kind of person he is,  or rather, isn't.  that makes me sad.  I had tried to keep things open for my mother's sake, and then I tried to periodically reach out - for her/his sake.  but honestly. . . . don't' try and teach a pig to sing.  it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

[Scarlett]

So sorry.  I don't know if you have ever read my thread about my brother, but it sounds identical, right down to him saying those exact things to his 28 year old dd.  And then denying he did anything wrong.  I try to keep up a relationship with him at least via text but he recently did something to my mom that I pray she never finds out about.  I feel DONE.  I just can't keep it up.  Then he texts me yesterday to tell me his 25 year old son and girlfriend are expecting a baby.  I couldn't even think what to say.  If not for my mom I think I could easily completely cut him out of my life.

[gardenmom5]

So sorry.  I don't know if you have ever read my thread about my brother, but it sounds identical, right down to him saying those exact things to his 28 year old dd.  And then denying he did anything wrong.  I try to keep up a relationship with him at least via text but he recently did something to my mom that I pray she never finds out about.  I feel DONE.  I just can't keep it up.  Then he texts me yesterday to tell me his 25 year old son and girlfriend are expecting a baby.  I couldn't even think what to say.  If not for my mom I think I could easily completely cut him out of my life.

 

I have - I noticed the simliarities at the time, though his embrace of conspiracy theories wasn't as developed as it is now.   my contact with him has been about my mother - even after she died.  (it's so sad when I was glad she was dead, so he couldn't get to her anymore.  I'd been trying to figure out how to protect her from him, as she wasn't willing to severe relations.  he was so manipulative, she wasn't up to dealing with him.)

 

 

for those with true npd- parent/grandparent . . . . I've noticed he will do the most outrageous things, which always change the balance of things, then act as if  *nothing* has happened.  it seems I recall hearing true npd do this.   after threatening me last night to not have any interactions with his children (she's 26? and it's up to her, because she has to deal with him.  or not.), he's seeding emails on conspiracy theories.  am I seeing this correctly?  as typical of npd?  or at least one subgroup.  he's also now claiming, to her, he never said she was a lousy dd.  right, we know,  you're just misunderstood./  he even offered to go to counseling with her - she doesn't trust him.  which is wise.   I think he'll twist it to what lousy daughter she is.  unless it's a counselor very familiar with personality disordered patients and can see through them.

 

 

I've never thought my grandmother was true npd, just related.  if she ever was called on anything - she was a martyr, and you never heard the end of how it was killing her - and whatever other scene she'd need to engage in to extort an apology.  frequently using my grandfather.  honestly - the woman loved to be a martyr.

[SparklyUnicorn]

:grouphug:

 

family.... :glare:

[PrincessMommy]

just seeing all this.  So sorry.   hugs.

[Angie in VA]

I'd say have a hug and a glass of wine!

 

:grouphug:

[applethyme]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

[Janeway]

I don't think you should get involved. I hope you didn't repeat to his daughter what he did to you when you all were kids. It may feel good to get it off your chest, but it just adds gas to the fire.

 

You need to detach. I get that you care about the neice, but being her buddy in complaining is more likely to enable the fighting between those two than getting her to set boundaries. Besides, you really don't know what happened in their conversation and she is his daughter, meaning, nuts often stick near the tree. She could just as easily manipulate you. It is obvious that you have hard feelings toward your brother, which is likely why she picked you to vent at. Unless you two are besties, she didn't just randomly pick you among her friends. She picked you because she knew how you felt about him.

 

Just go back and re-read your post. Is this all out family war about what he did to you as a kid, or a fight that he and his daughter had? It looks to me like his daughter knew exactly who to go to to start up an all family war. Try to separate your personal feelings about him from anything going on with her.

[Janeway]

And while he may be the worst person on earth, FB is public. You have a personal problem with someone, you take it to them personally. Trying to hash out problems on FB just isn't what anyone should do. It comes off more like you want to tear him down to everyone rather than resolve some issues.

[gardenmom5]

I don't think you should get involved. I hope you didn't repeat to his daughter what he did to you when you all were kids. It may feel good to get it off your chest, but it just adds gas to the fire.

 

You need to detach. I get that you care about the neice, but being her buddy in complaining is more likely to enable the fighting between those two than getting her to set boundaries. Besides, you really don't know what happened in their conversation and she is his daughter, meaning, nuts often stick near the tree. She could just as easily manipulate you. It is obvious that you have hard feelings toward your brother, which is likely why she picked you to vent at. Unless you two are besties, she didn't just randomly pick you among her friends. She picked you because she knew how you felt about him.

 

Just go back and re-read your post. Is this all out family war about what he did to you as a kid, or a fight that he and his daughter had? It looks to me like his daughter knew exactly who to go to to start up an all family war. Try to separate your personal feelings about him from anything going on with her.

 

you are the one who is completely off-base.  do you have a npd parent? 

 

she didn't pick me. at. all.  she made a general post to ALL of her FB friends lamenting about how he treated her when she had dinner with him. that he told her she was a looser and to f-off.  I made one comment among many agreeing with her that she's great - she has a good education and is working in a worthwhile job that contributes, and he's insufferable since he was a teen.  (re: it's nothing new, and it was going on long before she was born.).   SHE went into detail because she chose to do so.

 

there is no reason to give niece specifics about his very toxic behaviors towards me, or my mother, or anyone else.  she's experienced it firsthand with how he treats her.  (that prompted her to severe ALL contact with him for five years.)  she knows how he treated her mother, and her step-mother (his 2nd ex-wife), with whom she has a close relationship.  (he's repeatedly tried to severe that relationship.)

 

  my brother picked me to go after because . . he has my e-mail address, and he thinks he can manipulate me.  when my mother was alive - I kept my mouth shut so she wouldn't get fall-out.  far more than I should have.  (because he DID take crap out on her!  she'd give in to keep the peace and was resistant to my attempts to protect her. I was investigating elder abuse when she died.)

  when  he'd visit my mother, four separate medical facilities (drs as well as nurses) complained about him, TO ME, and the trouble he caused (interfered with patient care, etc.) and asked me to deal with him and make him stop.  one dr had hospital security standing by to throw him *off* the hospital campus.  that had zero to do with me - I didn't even know it was happening until afterwards when the dr himself, told me.  the dr was watching how he was manipulating mom - and was protecting his patient.

   we've had very little contact since right after she died, when he threatened, via a legal aid letter, to sue me.  He honestly couldn't understand why I would object to such, and he acted like everything was 'normal'.   (our lawyer - whom we used for non-related matters - laughed at how quickly it would have been tossed out of court if he'd tried to actually pursue it.)

 

this is about how he is NOW, as a person.   her brother chose to be loyal to HER when she when no-contact, not their dad.  i had zip to do with that.  

[gardenmom5]

I'd say have a hug and a glass of wine!

 

:grouphug:

 

thanks for the hug.  I don't drink, but I do eat chocolate.  sigh.  and costco had the dilettante mint truffles in which uses the *real* frango recipe.  we still have some left from christmas.

[gardenmom5]

My parent's behavior took a significant turn for the worse after she had an artery blockage. I can't remember the medical term, but half her brain was down to 10% blood flow. The issue was detected and fixed. But, I think there was permanent brain damage. (But- the person won't get help or investigate the damage. So there we are.) Borderline personality disorder is another avenue to investigate. 

 

If I were your niece, I would just not engage.Talk to friends in private. (i.e. Don't feed the troll.) 

 

that's why I suggested reading boundaries.  to help her understand they are not all or nothing.

 

Huggggsssss. I'm so sorry. I'm also sorry there is no alternate dimension. Maybe soon?

 

the staircase to nowhere in the 'madwoman of chaillot". .  that's right, just keep going down . . . . 

[FaithManor]

Hugs, hugs, hugs.

 

That is a lot to deal with. Can you set your fb page security so that when you post on niece's wall, he cannot see your posts? That way you can communicate with her without him picking a fight?

[lllll]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Angie in VA]

thanks for the hug.  I don't drink, but I do eat chocolate.  sigh.  and costco had the dilettante mint truffles in which uses the *real* frango recipe.  we still have some left from christmas.

 

 

I wondered about that, but went w/ it anyway. ;) 

 

Chocolate is great medicine! 

[J-rap]

:grouphug:

[MomatHWTK]

The create a problem, then pretend it didn't happen thing is gaslighting. I absolutely never take calls from the NPD in my life. She misrepresents everything that we say and then later claims we broke promises, didn't explain what was wrong, etc. After a year of harassment, I finally put everything in writing. (You did this, we tried to resolve it this way, you refused, here's what you have to do now to resolve...) Now, when I get an e-mail, I just resend the same response. 

 

As far as him coming after you, they do that to anyone who shows support for their target. I have a sibling who is still in touch with the NPD in my life. Whenever I do anything to help out sibling and NPD finds out, she either comes after me or makes the sibling's life miserable. In my experience, NPDs want to control the narrative and the people in their lives. If you interfere, even by being nice to the person they are trying to dominate, they will attack. You can't make other people sever contact and if you do, the NPD will just claim it is a plot. So, you have to be careful of your own contact with those people. 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

Hugs, hugs, hugs.

 

That is a lot to deal with. Can you set your fb page security so that when you post on niece's wall, he cannot see your posts? That way you can communicate with her without him picking a fight?

 

I think she blocked him.  after what he said to her over the weekend, which he now denies ever saying, she's back to wanting no contact with him.   he's also been privately e-mailing her and being controlling.  she's refusing to be controlled.

 

we're e-mailing.

 

he's emailing me conspiracy stuff.  he acts like nothing happened.  (he's done this before. he seems to honestly have no clue why people would object to his behavior - like when he sent me a letter threatening to sue me - right after getting on dh's computer and DELETING files pertaining to my mother's estate (dh's backups have backups), he couldn't understand why he wasn't welcome in my home. . . . ).  this wasn't my grandmother (she was a martyr, and would milk it for everything she could get)  - so it's requiring processing that this is how some npds respond.  (and i'm not crazy).  it's different.

 

eta: she thinks, and I believe there are grounds, he's a misogynist at heart.  he doesn't treat this son like this.  my grandmother was a misogynist.  (granted she came from a very large family of girls. no boys, on a farm. I think things would have been different if at least some of those girls had been boys.)    he was "the boy"  the golden child who could do no wrong.  he grew up with that - and is angry at women who dont' treat him like grandmother did.  "doing no wrong".

Edited January 4, 2017 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

just to be clear - i am NOT even suggesting she cut ties.  she has done that in the past (when my mother was still alive.).  what she does is her choice - she has to live with it.

 

I only suggested she read boundaries to get the finer nuances of the very broad middle ground - it's not an either/or, but that is how she currently sees it.  he may be toxic enough-  that is her only choice, that's her decision.

I regret almost every time even sending him a single "hi how are you?" email because of the intense cray-cray he sends back!

 

[Janeway]

you are the one who is completely off-base. do you have a npd parent?

 

she didn't pick me. at. all. she made a general post to ALL of her FB friends lamenting about how he treated her when she had dinner with him. that he told her she was a looser and to f-off. I made one comment among many agreeing with her that she's great - she has a good education and is working in a worthwhile job that contributes, and he's insufferable since he was a teen. (re: it's nothing new, and it was going on long before she was born.). SHE went into detail because she chose to do so.

 

there is no reason to give niece specifics about his very toxic behaviors towards me, or my mother, or anyone else. she's experienced it firsthand with how he treats her. (that prompted her to severe ALL contact with him for five years.) she knows how he treated her mother, and her step-mother (his 2nd ex-wife), with whom she has a close relationship. (he's repeatedly tried to severe that relationship.)

 

my brother picked me to go after because . . he has my e-mail address, and he thinks he can manipulate me. when my mother was alive - I kept my mouth shut so she wouldn't get fall-out. far more than I should have. (because he DID take crap out on her! she'd give in to keep the peace and was resistant to my attempts to protect her. I was investigating elder abuse when she died.)

when he'd visit my mother, four separate medical facilities (drs as well as nurses) complained about him, TO ME, and the trouble he caused (interfered with patient care, etc.) and asked me to deal with him and make him stop. one dr had hospital security standing by to throw him *off* the hospital campus. that had zero to do with me - I didn't even know it was happening until afterwards when the dr himself, told me. the dr was watching how he was manipulating mom - and was protecting his patient.

we've had very little contact since right after she died, when he threatened, via a legal aid letter, to sue me. He honestly couldn't understand why I would object to such, and he acted like everything was 'normal'. (our lawyer - whom we used for non-related matters - laughed at how quickly it would have been tossed out of court if he'd tried to actually pursue it.)

 

this is about how he is NOW, as a person. her brother chose to be loyal to HER when she when no-contact, not their dad. i had zip to do with that.

Yes, I do have a brother similar to yours and a Narcissist Mother (who was actually dx'd as that). I have learned to step back and not engage. And even when others have valid complaints about these bad people, no matter how tempting it is to commiserate with someone who agrees with me, it is still best to keep a huge friggin wall up and not engage, ever, no matter what. Because no matter what you do or how justified or right you are, the evil ones will always seek out control and won't let you go until you 100% stop engaging.

[SKL]

He sounds like a real winner, but I would also beware of taking her words literally.  In families there is often more than one side embellishing / forgetting when stories are retold.

 

That said, I think I would put him on every possible "ignore" setting for a while.

[Janeway]

He sounds like a real winner, but I would also beware of taking her words literally. In families there is often more than one side embellishing / forgetting when stories are retold.

 

That said, I think I would put him on every possible "ignore" setting for a while.

Oh yeah, that too. I keep brother and mother on block and have none of their flying monkeys on my page, not even the benign ones.

[gardenmom5]

He sounds like a real winner, but I would also beware of taking her words literally.  In families there is often more than one side embellishing / forgetting when stories are retold.

 

That said, I think I would put him on every possible "ignore" setting for a while.

 

I'm not taking her word for anything.  I know him.  I've been there, seen it, watched him to it to his kids (and listened to him  brag about it - as he insists I should do the same.  they didn't live with him)- and our mother, not to mention what he has actually done to me or attempted to do to my kids.

[gardenmom5]

and he's sending me uber cray-cray stuff. it''s not just his conspiracy theories - now it's whackadoodle new-age-type not-legally-recognized religion "higher beliefs" type stuff (that's only come about in the last 20 years.  someone's making money  . . . .)  please, make it stop . . . .

 

 

 

he was shoving that at mom right before she died - she was quite upset by it and started asking me what I believed! that was our last conversation.  at least I was able to assure her how much I loved her and believed God loved her -right before she died.

 

 

he's sending this carp to my e-mail address.  If I tell him to stop/block his email) - it will be going no-contact, and I have decide how far I'm willing to go.

Edited January 4, 2017 by gardenmom5

[Janeway]

and he's sending me uber cray-cray stuff. it''s not just his conspiracy theories - now it's whackadoodle new-age-type not-legally-recognized religion "higher beliefs" type stuff (that's only come about in the last 20 years.  someone's making money  . . . .)  please, make it stop . . . .

 

 

 

he was shoving that at mom right before she died - she was quite upset by it and started asking me what I believed! that was our last conversation.  at least I was able to assure her how much I loved her and believed God loved her -right before she died.

 

 

he's sending this carp to my e-mail address.  If I tell him to stop/block his email) - it will be going no-contact, and I have decide how far I'm willing to go.

You don't have to tell him you put him on block, you can just do it. Are you saying you don't want to put him on block? 

 

My only regret was allowing the toxic people stay in my life too long. I wish I had excluded them years ago. But CO means not engaging also. It is not really right to CO someone and then continue to engage behind their backs, kwim? I am not saying you are doing that, you have not even CO yet. I am just saying if you go that route, it has to be a complete CO. And if you continue to engage after CO, then you really just did not CO, you only put other steps between you and him and those steps are generally other people. I hope you get what I am saying.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by .qp_

[Guest]

Megahug from just down the road.  (somewhere nearby, but I don't know how near).  Anyway,  *****HUGS*****.  And wine.

 

[gardenmom5]

Megahug from just down the road.  (somewhere nearby, but I don't know how near).  Anyway,  *****HUGS*****.  And wine.

 

you're the one that moved north . . .

[Guest]

you're the one that moved north . . .

Right now I feel like I moved too farnorth...arctic circle???

[gardenmom5]

Right now I feel like I moved too farnorth...arctic circle???

 

if you'd stayed - you wouldnt' have much snow at all.  probably.  my dd lives about five miles from me, and she had more snow than we did.   my son's are sulking.

[Guest]

Oh I don't have any snow. I'm just coooooold.

 

I used to sulk when I was their age too. They don't have to drive in it!!

[gardenmom5]

Oh I don't have any snow. I'm just coooooold.

 

I used to sulk when I was their age too. They don't have to drive in it!!

 

two are in college -they commute. but the roads  are clear and dry.

 

I'd like a good snowstorm.  the kind that abosrobs all the sound, and everything is still . . . . not like I can just get up and go somewhere - I'd love to go without dudeling, but his caretaking would be complex.

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[DawnM]

I am sorry.  It stinks when family is stinky.  (how is that for deep thoughts?)

 

:grouphug: