s/o Wealthy: Student Loans and Basics of Life

[Jean in Wisc]

#1

I am amazed at something on the $250,000/year thread. Well, maybe more than one thing...but what stood out to me as I read through these is the student loan idea. Now I suppose one cannot get through medical school by alternating a year of work with a year of school, but I was surprised how often that cost was figured into the necesities of life. It was assumed, when I was in college, that I'd work my way through--whatever I had to do to make it work. A student loan was something one of my sisters did, and it was something that made our eyes open up really wide!

 

I went through college and grad school and my dh went through engineering school, and we worked our way through. I got a $200 scholarship from a little elderly lady who gave scholarships to people going into education. We worked all summer and worked a job during the school year, too. I know two students who are working full time AND going to school to pay the bills. Private school was not considered--unless it was the only place one could get the education they needed or unless they had the money or the scholarships to pay for it. It is not an easy way of doing it, I know. And not everyone would be able to pay every last cent off before graduation, but they should not be under their loans forever, either. This is the assumption I grew up with--pay as you go.

 

What think you? What am I missing in this equation? Are student loans a necessary evil to most folks today? Is it just my rearing that makes me see it this way? Am I looking at it from a poor-man's perspective?

 

#2

And if I may, I find it curious how different the list of "the basics" can be. My grandparents lost their farm during the depression. As long as they had a roof over their heads, clothing to keep their 8 children decent (including putting cardboard into the shoes to keep their feet from being exposed due to holes in the soles), enough food to keep them healthy, staying out of debt (or at least pay all the bills) and a few other basics (like firewood for warmth and a school for their children), they were contented--poor, but still "making it".

 

It is a long cry from the TV/VCR/computer/internet/multiple car/cell phone "poor" of today (we would be classified as poor by many U.S. standards, and we have all of that). I've also spent my time around missionaries who've lived in other countries. There is a very small percentage of people who are as poor in the the United States as the people they live with--people consider the Americans rich because they have more than one bowl in their kitchen.

 

So, wealth and poverty is, for the most part, something that must be defined prior to (or during) a discussion like this, right? And our past experiences are the basis of how we see it. I've often seen that those who grew up with more, find it harder to live with less; those who grew up with less, usually find it less taxing to life with less.

 

I still like the idea that we can be rich because we have a lot of money, or we can be rich because we have few needs.

 

It is hard to have few needs in America. No one wants to live in a dangerous neighborhood. We do not have adequate public transportation to live easily without a car (or two). College is expensive. Insurance is out of this world. Good jobs are getting harder to find. It is not possible to easily compare ourselves with the people of Nepal because their way of living is centered around the majority of people having a whole lot less.

 

So...what would YOU include in the "basics" of life here in the U.S.? Where is the line drawn between having the basics and being comfortable, or being comfortable and having it nice? How do we define poor?

 

#3

And that leads me to the thoughts of speculation: If the economy would really bottom out long term (not that I'm predicting this), how will the people of this nation deal with having to live below what they consider the poverty line? As a nation, are we stoic enough to do it or ??? Would it cause a revolution? Will our government survive it and remain as it is (history shows that Republics do not last forever). Are we still the "pull ourselves up by our bootstrap" type of Americans as we were in the past?

 

Just curious. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jean

[JFSinIL]

The cost of college now far exceeds what a student can make at a job. The days of working one's way through are pretty much over. Sigh.

 

Hubby will have paid off his loan for law school the year our oldest enters college. :glare:

[amy g.]

I was surprised that one of my friends has over $80,000 in student loans. Another has over $100,000 in loans. One of them is not even working in the field in which she received her degree.

 

Both have big new houses and drive Mercedes, even with that debt hanging over their heads.

 

It must be a scary way to live. I really can't image it.

 

I will be strongly encouraging my children not to incur that type of debt.

[Renee in NC]

#1 - There are not enough spots in state schools to go around. However, I will teach my dc NOT TO GO INTO DEBT FOR UNDERGRAD. Period. There is no reason with the way things are now. I did it and it was just dumb! My reason is because I couldn't get into a state school directly (high school dropout), but the community college I attended for 2 semesters was a waste of time. I transferred to a private school that gave me a full tuition/fees scholarship, but I still had loans for living expenses (rent, daycare, utilities, etc. because I had a 2yo.)

 

If they really wanted to be a doctor, though, there aren't many options out there. Yes, there are a few scholarships and a few repayment plans (my cousin worked on the Navajo reservation to pay his loans off.) However, there aren't enough to go around.

 

Business school - depends. No name school? No way. Duke School of Business? Yes, because the reward far outweighs the risks. Same thing for law school.

 

#2 - Basics include small roof, adequate clothes, adequate food, basic health care, and some sort of transportation.

 

#3 - Things won't change much.

[TeacherZee]

The cost of college now far exceeds what a student can make at a job. The days of working one's way through are pretty much over. Sigh.

 

Hubby will have paid off his loan for law school the year our oldest enters college. :glare:

 

:iagree: And I didn't have to pay tuition fees.

 

I took full student loans. Lived pretty cheaply (I didn't eat noodles all the time but I did eat meat regularly). I used discounts when I could. I worked two out of four years in college one year because they said in order to get the job back the next summer I would have to keep working during the winter. I regret working there for so long. I also worked my final year but only because I was offered a supervisory position that I thought would look good on my CV for when I applied to jobs after college. It did and I am still really glad I kept that job. I learned loads. But I was also a pretty serious student and I wanted to get good grades without burning myself out. I still had to work during term but I made sure I didn't take on more hours than I could handle and also have the social experience. I made a trade off with my grown self that I wanted some free time in college and live more frugally after college. It was a very deliberate decision I made and one that I haven't regretted even when things have been tight some months since then.

 

I also went to one of the top schools in the UK. And it was a HARD school.

Edited October 16, 2008 by TeacherZee
to add somthing

[bkpan]

The cost of college now far exceeds what a student can make at a job. The days of working one's way through are pretty much over. Sigh.

 

Hubby will have paid off his loan for law school the year our oldest enters college. :glare:

 

I have to disagree. As I posted in the other thread, my dh got his engineering degree from a state university and then went on to earn an MBA from a private college and didn't owe a dime when he graduated. He also did not have scholarships. He simply saved every dime he could since he was 12-13yo, he lived like a pauper all of the years he was in school, and he works very hard. (He has been an amazing example to me - I did not do so well:mellow:)

 

I do believe that we owe a debt to his parents. They taught him a strong work ethic and encouraged college, despite the fact that neither one of them went. His dad didn't even finish high school. But they were also hard workers and a great example.

 

I still believe that it comes down to choices. And how we are raising our kids. We are trying to start a system of savings for our kids NOW - they are 1-11yo. We will insist and more importantly, I hope inspire them, to save and work hard.

 

Choices.

 

Kim

[Parrothead]

I'm one that doesn't understand the student loans being paid for 20 or more years. I also don't think the basics include specialized electronics. A roof, food, basic vehicle, clothes and if necessary for work a basic cell phone and internet. Pay off those loans before getting further in debt.

 

I think it all goes back to that entitlement mentality, and the credit is a great thing outlook. Parents have been doing children a disservice by living beyond their means with credit and showing that it is normal to do so. That is something that has been going on for decades. As a society we have forgotten what really bad (Depression times) looks like.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Parrothead

[hsmamainva]

#1 - There are not enough spots in state schools to go around. However, I will teach my dc NOT TO GO INTO DEBT FOR UNDERGRAD. Period. There is no reason with the way things are now. I did it and it was just dumb! My reason is because I couldn't get into a state school directly (high school dropout), but the community college I attended for 2 semesters was a waste of time. I transferred to a private school that gave me a full tuition/fees scholarship, but I still had loans for living expenses (rent, daycare, utilities, etc. because I had a 2yo.)

 

If they really wanted to be a doctor, though, there aren't many options out there. Yes, there are a few scholarships and a few repayment plans (my cousin worked on the Navajo reservation to pay his loans off.) However, there aren't enough to go around.

 

Business school - depends. No name school? No way. Duke School of Business? Yes, because the reward far outweighs the risks. Same thing for law school.

 

I feel the exact same way!! :iagree:

 

This is the same advice that I've given to my own children! My oldest has already completed 19 credits at the community college and she'll have 25 under her belt by the time she graduates this spring. Those are classes that she won't have to take at a 4 year school (and at a cost of $85 per credit hour vs several hundred dollars at a university). She then plans on attending a local in-state university. (Her end goal is the FBI Academy).

 

My 9yo wants to be a doctor -- he's been talking about it for 2 years now. And our plan is for him to start at the community college (he's 2 years ahead of his grade level so he will graduate at the end of his 10th grade year). The plan is for him to go to the community college for two years (what would normally be 11th and 12th grades), and receive his AA degree. He then has guaranteed acceptance into any Virginia in-state college. He'd attend there for 2 years, and then, if he still wants to go to medical school, he can do so...and without ANY student loans accumulated so far.

 

Btw...love how you mentioned Duke!! That's his favorite school!! That's where he hopes to go to medical school. :thumbup:

[Kelli in TN]

Sarah is likely to have some sort of scholarship. It will not cover all of her expenses. If all goes well it will cover all of her tuition, but there will still be dorm fees and books and the various fees that colleges come up with. We would rather she take a modest deferred loan then work the number of hours it would require to pay those fees. We feel like working those hours would take away from study time and put her scholarship in jeopardy.

 

If she were to work a year and then study a year, work a year and then study a year she would lose all of her scholarship money. I have no doubt she will live modestly but she will still need loans.

 

She has worked since she was 15 but she has nothing in savings. She has paid all of her own bills, and then chosen to contribute to our household many times. Often she contributed to our household against our wishes by doing things like covering vet care on the dogs or picking up groceries and refusing to be reimbursed or taking a child shopping unbeknowst to us. We sometimes have to do things like make deposits into her bank account because she will not let us reimburse her for things!!!

 

I just don't see a modest Stafford loan as the worst thing in the world if it means she gets her degree.

[Kelli in TN]

I feel the exact same way!! :iagree:

 

This is the same advice that I've given to my own children! My oldest has already completed 19 credits at the community college and she'll have 25 under her belt by the time she graduates this spring. :

 

If my daughter earned that many credits before graduation she would not be considered an incoming freshman and she would not be allowed to compete for scholarships. It just would not be worth it. She is earning the max. allowed but it is nowhere close to 25.

[swellmomma]

I am not in the states, but our economy often follows the US so this is just as relevant here. I didn't post on that first thread, because to me an annual salary of $250,000 would be like winning the lottery. My family is living WAY below the poverty line, when I work f/t I make only $12,000 a year, sometimes with childcare expenseswhich really eats into that income, plus my child tax benefit which is another $1400/month since having Izzy. This year I am not working since I am getting that amount in childsupport and daycare isn't worth it. My family and those around me think we are completely destitute and think it is horrible the kids live at this income. In my opinion we are very rich, my kids get me home fulltime, have a million toys, clothes, books etc. They even have a Wii we were given whent he missionaries came to visit us. We have cable and internet, a vehicle, the kids are in private music lessons, and other activities. Food is always on the table, we are the best eating poor folk imo because every year I buy 1/4 cow to stock the freezer, so even if we have zero food in the fridge we can be having roast or steak for dinner. My kids still get the presents they want for christmas and birthdays and things in between jsut for fun (like the webkinz I bought yesterday).

 

I do have student loans and 1 old debt I am paying off, in total I think I am about $31K in debt and chipping away at it slowly. THe rest of my bills get paid in full most months, though I don't pay them in december to loosen some $$ for christmas.

 

For me if the economy tanks I am already used to living with very little, I have no problem cancelling our extras like cable and internet if I needed to. I also know that given my line of work in childcare I can always find a job.

 

I do not think the rest of my family will fair quite as well. My parents mortgage on their main home is paid off, but a year ago when housing was hot they built a home to sell it wasn't finished until the market dropped. SO now they are saddled with that mortgage payment, my brother and his gf currently rent the home for teh amount of the mortgage to take it off my parents shoulders, but if they lose their jobs due to the economy they won't be able to afford it and my parents who are almost semi retired would have to both go back to work f/t to pay for a home they don't even live in. I do not think that either of my siblings would know what to do, they both live in big homes(my sis and bil own theirs), have 2 cars (all 4 cars with those 2 families are less then 1 year old), they take multiple trips each year etc. They do not know what it means to live at anything less than wealthy kwim. They will not fair as well as I will in a crashing economy imo because they have so much further to fall. I don't know what if any job security they have, my bros, is a banker training to be an investment banker, my sis is a college professor for adults doing high school courses, my bil is in commercial real estate, my sil works in marketing for the Brick. I don't many people who will be investing, going back to school or buying commercial property if the economy tanks so they may not be as secure as they think.

 

I think for the population pulling yourselves up by te bootstraps in this day and age would be much harder. It used to be that if you worked hard enough you could do anything, but now a days you can't do anything without an education, and until the drop the cost of childcare families will not be able to afford to go to work. IN my case even with full subsidies for daycare for my little 2, my olders don't qualify and I would have to pay full price, and they are not old enough nor mature enough to stay home alone so I would pay $1000/month in daycare for 4 WITH subsidies and the olders in ps f/t only needing afterschool care, not worth it, and alot of other people will find the same issue.

 

Back in the 80's in the last recession I was a latchkey kid and watched my brother after school at only 8. I remember having to become little mother in my home so both my parents could work, and go to night classes in an attempt to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. In the end it resulted in a coffee pot exploding in my hand (at age 8 because I had to make the coffee to get my parents out of bed), me becoming clinically depressed by 10 (which of course back then was not diagnosised, it wasnt for years but was traced back to then), and leaving home as soon as I was 18. By 11 I started working in a daycare because I was so used to watching other kids, at 15 I was getting paid to do it, so I guess in a way the recession of the 80s launched my career. That said, I know I never want my children to experience that, it made me grow up way too fast, and put way too much responsibility on my shoulders at far too young an age. I would rather keep living the poor life we have now that make my child have to become little parents just so I can "pull us up by the bootstraps" I think that others that grew up with the same experiences as me in the 80s will have similar feelings about it, but I could be completely wrong on that one.

[HRAAB]

Both my older dd's are working their way through school with no debt. Others wouldn't make the choices they have, but my girls are satisfied. They will come out with a degree, and we're pleased.

 

I remember growing up the average sized house was maybe 1300 to 1500 square feet (I was born in 1960). The house we live in is 2300 sq. ft. My parents built this house when I was small, and my friends thought I lived in a mansion. We bought it from my parents in 1991; it is more than we need. I see that. We could get by with less. You know what? My house isn't large anymore. Over the last few years new subdivisions have been popping up all around here, and most of the houses are 3,000 sq. ft.+. That's the smaller end. Three car garages and an extra concrete pad for the boat or motorhome.

 

The definition of wealthy or well-off has changed considerably, imo. I think I'm well off although we make about 1/5 of the $250.000 amount. I have more than I need, I could get by on much less.

 

The other thread has been a real eye-opener for me and has left me wondering.

 

Very good post with good questions.

 

Janet

[hsmamainva]

If my daughter earned that many credits before graduation she would not be considered an incoming freshman and she would not be allowed to compete for scholarships. It just would not be worth it. She is earning the max. allowed but it is nowhere close to 25.

 

That's such a shame!! And, yes, some colleges are like that -- depending on what state you live in. Here in Virginia (at least at the colleges my dd has applied to) as long as the college credits were completed before high school graduation, they don't affect her status as a freshman or penalize her for any scholarships / grants / etc.

 

So everyone should check with the schools your child is interested in attending .. your mileage may vary ;)

[Renee in NC]

My 9yo wants to be a doctor -- he's been talking about it for 2 years now. And our plan is for him to start at the community college (he's 2 years ahead of his grade level so he will graduate at the end of his 10th grade year). The plan is for him to go to the community college for two years (what would normally be 11th and 12th grades), and receive his AA degree. He then has guaranteed acceptance into any Virginia in-state college. He'd attend there for 2 years, and then, if he still wants to go to medical school, he can do so...and without ANY student loans accumulated so far.

 

 

Be careful with this plan - med schools are not real keen on community college courses.

[hsmamainva]

Be careful with this plan - med schools are not real keen on community college courses.

 

I hadn't thought of that! I know it would be for those generic 'first two year' type of classes - college composition, US history, foreign language, etc. He'd major in something like biology or chemistry at the 4 year school, so he'd only take the one biology class required for the AA degree.

 

But I will look into it, as it gets closer to attendance time!! So thanks for the heads up! I appreciate it!

[HRAAB]

If my daughter earned that many credits before graduation she would not be considered an incoming freshman and she would not be allowed to compete for scholarships. It just would not be worth it. She is earning the max. allowed but it is nowhere close to 25.

 

This happened to my niece. She had too many credits to be considered an incoming freshman couldn't get scholarships so she couldn't attend the private college she had chosen. Instead she stayed home, attended OSU, and graduated debt free. She has said she's actually glad it happened that way because otherwise she would have student loans. She's worked the last two years in her field, saved money, and is now attending graduate school debt free.

 

I know it's very, very hard. But it can be done.

 

If it came down to my dd not graduating or having a small loan, of course, I would say 'get a loan'. If it came down to not graduating or having some of these huge loans I hear about, I would probably suggest she change her plans.

 

Janet

[Kelli in TN]

This happened to my niece. She had too many credits to be considered an incoming freshman couldn't get scholarships so she couldn't attend the private college she had chosen. Instead she stayed home, attended OSU, and graduated debt free. She has said she's actually glad it happened that way because otherwise she would have student loans.

 

This is a state school we are looking at. In fact it is one of the less expensive state schools in our system. Private school would require even more than a modest Stafford loan.

[chaik76]

We have $100,000 in student loans. I just don't know how it would have been possible for us to get through without them.

 

I went to a private college. I went there because I received more financial aid from them than from a state school...so I paid significantly less out of pocket to go there than I would have to a state school. Financially that obviously made sense. I worked almost, but not quite, full time. Even with that I could not pay my college and medical expenses. At the time I made $4.75/hr.

 

Most of our student loans come from graduate school (my dh). We ended up having a baby early in his graduate school career, and that is where some of our student loans come from. I stayed home after the baby was born. Now, some will say I should have gone out and worked. I think the price of those loans is well worth being home with my children. Childcare where we lived was around $1000/mo for infants, so I would have brought very little home...not enough to cover our expenses anyway.

 

My grandparents grew up in the depression. My grandfather fared better because he lived on a farm, so they usually had enough food. My grandmother was destitute at times. There were times there was only food for the baby...not for the older seven kids. So they know the value of what is truly necessary, and what is not...and brought up their kids (which included me) that way.

 

We have one car, that is payed for and twelve years old. We have two tv's...one was a gift and one was purchased almost ten years ago for less than $100. We have a ton of stuff...way too much, but most of it was not purchased by us...we are often given stuff by others.

 

We are not poor by any stretch of the imagination, but we do struggle to pay our bills. I'm not sure how I would define poor. I think the definition varies by person. For me, being poor would be how I grew up when I lived with my mom. We never went hungry, but we lived on Ramen and mac and cheese. We lived in a falling apart trailer on someone's property. We were definitely in the poor range at the time (although we had a tv that someone had given us).

 

Money-wise, dh and I fall squarely (by almost anyone's standards) into the middle class. I consider us to live a middle class life, but there are some people who don't think we do. We have one car, our house is only 1200 square feet. My kids get a lot of hand-me-downs. One would think that we would be able to live quite comfortably on our income (when I was small I though the income we have now was rich!). But truthfully, with student loans, a mortgage (there is almost nowhere to rent where we live) and other bills, our salary is just eaten up. There isn't much left over for extras. Actually right now we are in the unenviable position of having our house (which was not overpriced when we got it) be re-assessed for less than we bought it for, effectively eliminating our equity and we are now upside down on it. Besides this, with the price of everything now, we do not have money for home repairs, which means that the price of our house is going to go down, not up, because we can't afford necessary repairs (like fixing the wall that is soft from water damage, or fixing the plumbing that gives us only a trickle of water).

 

I think that's why so many people have differing ideas of what is wealthy, and what is not. What is poor and what is not. Every family has a unique situation that makes us evaluate whether we consider ourselves poor or not. Like I said, we don't consider ourselves poor, but there are some who would think we are, not because of the amount of money we make, but because we are unable to keep up with the possessions we do have.

 

And I would LOVE to sell our house and rent or purchase something cheaper (and by the way, we did not purchase an expensive house to begin with) but we would not have enough money to buy out the mortgage if we did so...because we could not sell it for the price we bought it for.

 

Guh...I don't know. This was long and rambly, and probably didn't make much sense.

[Carrie12345]

#1

I am amazed at something on the $250,000/year thread. Well, maybe more than one thing...but what stood out to me as I read through these is the student loan idea. Now I suppose one cannot get through medical school by alternating a year of work with a year of school, but I was surprised how often that cost was figured into the necesities of life. It was assumed, when I was in college, that I'd work my way through--whatever I had to do to make it work. A student loan was something one of my sisters did, and it was something that made our eyes open up really wide!

 

I went through college and grad school and my dh went through engineering school, and we worked our way through. I got a $200 scholarship from a little elderly lady who gave scholarships to people going into education. We worked all summer and worked a job during the school year, too. I know two students who are working full time AND going to school to pay the bills. Private school was not considered--unless it was the only place one could get the education they needed or unless they had the money or the scholarships to pay for it. It is not an easy way of doing it, I know. And not everyone would be able to pay every last cent off before graduation, but they should not be under their loans forever, either. This is the assumption I grew up with--pay as you go.

 

What think you? What am I missing in this equation? Are student loans a necessary evil to most folks today? Is it just my rearing that makes me see it this way? Am I looking at it from a poor-man's perspective?

 

Jean

 

I don't consider student loans to be inevitable. I do feel they are acceptable when handled properly. Many students are (or have been, I won't speak to how recent credit issues may be changing things) able, even encouraged, to increase loan amounts to cover dorm fees, books, meal plans, and even non-school expenses. That's pretty crazy.

 

Dh and I are aiming to cover as many college expenses as we can for our kids. There's definitely no guarantee that we'll be able to cover every dime for any school, so choices will have to be made. I would discourage my kids from taking on loans just because they *like* a more expensive school. I don't consider it a bad decision to take on loans in order to focus exclusively on their studies. If they can swing a small job to offset costs, great, but I would rather they didn't arrange classes around work.

 

Sure, student loans can be a strain later on. I don't see that strain as very different from the one that comes with working hard to pay for school while enrolled and potentially lengthening that time frame.

 

If my kids can avoid student loan debt, I will be very, very happy. If they decide to become lawyers or veterenarians or get a degree in landscape design from Harvard by taking out loans, I'll be just as happy. I don't equate student loans to credit cards full of material items.

 

Part of my opinion probably comes from the fact that I'm a few years from having a child in college, and about 2 decades from having my youngest finishing college. With the rate of tuition inflation, there's no telling how much it will cost by then. I want my kids to earn degrees. It's very possible that loans may be the only way they will be able to.

[3lilreds in NC]

I had student loans. My mom, brother and I were all in college at the same time. My parents never wanted me to work in high school; they will tell you that they wanted the control over how much money I had and therefore how I spent my time. Plus, they wanted me in sports and band and all that stuff. I think, looking back, that if they had it to do again, they would have encouraged me to work and save for college. I don't think they had a clue how much it was going to cost. They weren't much for thinking ahead like that.

 

I had the fewest loans of the three of us. My dh helped me pay them off after we got married. However, if you look at the recommendations of financial gurus, if student loans are part of your debt, they usually have the very lowest interest rates, so they suggest paying those off last. That's why it takes so long to pay them off sometimes. We couldn't afford to pay them off in one fell swoop, but we did it as soon as we could.

 

I did work every summer and all year long through college to help with expenses. I wasn't a good money manager during the school year, but I did save everything I made during the summers.

 

If I hadn't gotten married, it would have taken me a lot longer to pay them off. I didn't make that much money. Although, I would have gone on to grad school - and so incurred more loans, but gotten a higher-paying job on the other side, so who knows?

[Jami]

I hadn't thought of that! I know it would be for those generic 'first two year' type of classes - college composition, US history, foreign language, etc. He'd major in something like biology or chemistry at the 4 year school, so he'd only take the one biology class required for the AA degree.

 

But I will look into it, as it gets closer to attendance time!! So thanks for the heads up! I appreciate it!

 

I can't speak for all community colleges or med schools. ;) But my freshman-year roomate came into our very solid liberal arts state college with about 30 hours in Comm. college credits--English, history, stats, that sort of thing, I don't think many science courses. She was done with her BA in Biology in 3 years because of the number of credits she brought in and went to the state university Med school after a *gap* year to save money, get married, etc. Based on her MCat and really solid work on her major courses, she had no trouble getting into med school.

 

FWIW. :)

[Scarlett]

Sarah is likely to have some sort of scholarship. It will not cover all of her expenses. If all goes well it will cover all of her tuition, but there will still be dorm fees and books and the various fees that colleges come up with

 

Do you live too far from the college for her to live at home while she attends?

[Renee in NC]

I can't speak for all community colleges or med schools. ;) But my freshman-year roomate came into our very solid liberal arts state college with about 30 hours in Comm. college credits--English, history, stats, that sort of thing, I don't think many science courses. She was done with her BA in Biology in 3 years because of the number of credits she brought in and went to the state university Med school after a *gap* year to save money, get married, etc. Based on her MCat and really solid work on her major courses, she had no trouble getting into med school.

 

FWIW. :)

 

I was thinking about science pre-reqs at the community college - when I was premed, I was counseled to take extra coursework because I had taken a couple of pre-reqs at a community college. So, there seems to be a middle ground, too!

[Kelli in TN]

I went to a private college. I went there because I received more financial aid from them than from a state school...so I paid significantly less out of pocket to go there than I would have to a state school. Financially that obviously made sense. I worked almost, but not quite, full time. Even with that I could not pay my college and medical expenses. At the time I made $4.75/hr..

 

My current college student had the same experience. The private school had more to offer her. It looks like my soon to be college student might get more from the state school, though we are not done checking out schools.

 

My kids have to choose their college by following the money trail!

 

We pay for our college students' medical expenses, auto related expenses and provide $25 per week allowance. In addition we try to pick up the leftover expenses after they take out ONE modest Stafford loan. For my current student that meant buying her books.

[hsmamainva]

I can't speak for all community colleges or med schools. ;) But my freshman-year roomate came into our very solid liberal arts state college with about 30 hours in Comm. college credits--English, history, stats, that sort of thing, I don't think many science courses. She was done with her BA in Biology in 3 years because of the number of credits she brought in and went to the state university Med school after a *gap* year to save money, get married, etc. Based on her MCat and really solid work on her major courses, she had no trouble getting into med school.

 

FWIW. :)

 

Thanks!!! I'm definitely taking notes here!! :)

[rafiki]

.

[lmrich]

I took out student loans, worked three jobs in college and paid for my husband to attend grad school. I am sick of Americans feeling like they are entittled. One politician promised free college in the debate last night. I beleive that when you work for something (college, a car, a bunny rabbit - that is what I saved up for as a kid) you value it more. Americans have to get back to what made our country great - working! Not borrowing. I agree with all of you who are sending your kids to community college first to save money. Good job!

[HRAAB]

This is a state school we are looking at. In fact it is one of the less expensive state schools in our system. Private school would require even more than a modest Stafford loan.

 

Mine are able to live at home, and I know this makes a big difference. My oldest did choose to move out, but she is working full-time to make ends meet.

 

After reading so many of these posts, I think I am more grateful than ever that we live where we do. A local school that is affordable is a huge blessings for us.

 

As I said, if it came down to getting a loan or not finishing school, I would want them to get the loan. They're blessed that they haven't had to do that.

 

Janet

[Kelli in TN]

Do you live too far from the college for her to live at home while she attends?

 

Yes and no. The college that is at the top of the list is close enough that some students commute from our town to that school.

 

This is not our preference for her, however. The amount of time on the road, the price of fuel, the wear and tear on her vehicle, the lack of ease in taking advantage of all the school offers in the way of on campus computer labs and tutoring and other services, all of these are reasons we prefer for her to be on campus. Also, I would want her to take part in on campus activities that relate to her major (and some just for fun) and I would not be at ease knowing that she was facing an hour long drive home in the middle of the night.

 

Plus, if I can get her out of here I can clean her bedroom and bathroom!!!!:lol:

[HRAAB]

I took out student loans, worked three jobs in college and paid for my husband to attend grad school. I am sick of Americans feeling like they are entittled. One politician promised free college in the debate last night. I beleive that when you work for something (college, a car, a bunny rabbit - that is what I saved up for as a kid) you value it more. Americans have to get back to what made our country great - working! Not borrowing. I agree with all of you who are sending your kids to community college first to save money. Good job!

 

He didn't promise free college (that would surely have gotten my attention). I think what he is proposing is a $4,000. tax incentive in exchange for some type of community service to be applied towards college???

 

Otherwise, I agree. Work, save, and only borrow if you absolutely have to.

 

Janet

[Kelli in TN]

I took out student loans, worked three jobs in college and paid for my husband to attend grad school. I am sick of Americans feeling like they are entittled. One politician promised free college in the debate last night. I beleive that when you work for something (college, a car, a bunny rabbit - that is what I saved up for as a kid) you value it more. Americans have to get back to what made our country great - working! Not borrowing. I agree with all of you who are sending your kids to community college first to save money. Good job!

 

Cute moniker.

[Jami]

Well I have student loans, as does dh, that were avoidable for the most part. But we made some choices that I'm not sure I'd undo just to not have them. If that makes sense?

 

I earned fullride scholarship in-state (Nebraska) to the University campus nearest my parents. But I wanted a more academic college experience than high school had been and I wanted to not just have a continuation of high school with relationships (since more than 30% of my class planned to go to the same university). And despite a rich, loving relationship with my parents, I wanted test out my adult wings farther from home than an hour's drive.

 

So I chose to go to a more academic state college in another state. And while I had a hefty scholarship from that school and later worked as an RA to cover living expenses, it didn't cover everything. But to retain the scholarship and do the work as an RA, I had at least 10 hours of part-time work I was responsible for. So I worked summers, but not during the school year at a separate job. My parents didn't have more than an occasional bit of money to help with books, so my choice meant that student loans helped fill the gaps.

 

Dh had a fullride (actually was making money) to attend the same university. But he wasn't ready for college in some ways, a gap year probably would have served him well. And his parents didn't particularly know how to help guide him into making adult decisions. Basically he failed his first year. And lost the scholarship. And couldn't dream of repairing his GPA enough to get those scholarships back even at half value. Again, clear choices, but still left him with the choice of working at Taco Bell or getting a degree and training for a career.

 

Then we met and married. :) Probably didn't have to. But it relieved our parents of the burden of trying to find money for us. And it secured us grant money that we as dependents were too wealthy for, but as a married college couple, it helped.

 

Dh did work 20+ hours a week through college, but at a campus job which was minimum wage. And I worked various odd campus jobs as well. His job became the place he found his career though, which working a job for more money off campus wouldn't have provided. It was the New Media Center and he mastered graphic design there. Which now pays the bills. :)

 

 

Anyway, wrapping up this rambling thing... We both could have gotten free college educations. Loans weren't the only way to a degree, if just the degree had been our priority. But we had other priorities that entered the picture and I'm thankful for our path, even if we now have that payment to send out every month. And it's not huge or unmanageable, but it would be nice to be rid of it. And in a couple more years, we will be.

 

Oh, another choice, I could have worked for a few years to pay loans more quickly after college. But at that point we'd been married 4 years and we wanted to start a family and I wanted to come home to be a mom. Maybe not the most fiscally wise choice, but again, I'm not sure I'd change it. :001_smile:

 

 

Jami

[Kelli in TN]

He didn't promise free college (that would surely have gotten my attention). I think what he is proposing is a $4,000. tax incentive in exchange for some type of community service to be applied towards college???

 

Otherwise, I agree. Work, save, and only borrow if you absolutely have to.

 

Janet

 

I meant to ask my kids what they thought about his plan. I know my daughter looked at the contract you can sign where you teach wherever you are sent in exchange for debt forgiveness. She decided against it because you have to work so many years with no choice of where you are sent and if you don't complete the contract for any reason you owe 100% of your debt. It just sounded like too much.

 

Mr. Obama's plan sounds more reasonable.

[Renee in NC]

He didn't promise free college (that would surely have gotten my attention). I think what he is proposing is a $4,000. tax incentive in exchange for some type of community service to be applied towards college???

 

Otherwise, I agree. Work, save, and only borrow if you absolutely have to.

 

Janet

 

There is already the AmeriCorps which pays you a small stipend and then gives you $4-5K at the end of your service year.

[Jami]

There is already the AmeriCorps which pays you a small stipend and then gives you $4-5K at the end of your service year.

 

And many states have programs like Kelli mentioned for teachers, either helping pay off debt if you teach in urban or rural situations. Of course, there are downsides to some of those, which Kelli's dd pointed out.

 

In my home-state and probably others there are programs for those in health careers to get extra college money or debt forgiveness if they are willing to spend a certain amount of time serving rural communities.

 

So there are programs out there, they just ask that we not have all the choices we want to have. Sometimes that's worth it, sometimes not.

[HRAAB]

There is already the AmeriCorps which pays you a small stipend and then gives you $4-5K at the end of your service year.

 

Obviously I need to check into what is available. I still have 3 more to get into college, and with the economy heading the way it is, well, the future is looking bleaker.

 

Janet

[joannqn]

College:

My husband got his bachelor's owing only a very small amount which we paid off within a year or so of his graduating. If I had stayed in college (I dropped out), I would have owed nothing because I had a full scholarship at a private university.

 

I don't have a complete plan for my kids yet as we are too far away to know what will be available. It things remain the same, my plan is to use CLEP, SAT II, and AP tests for credit and/or attending community college before they graduate. From there, we'll see what they want. I will expect them to use a variety of work, savings, scholarships, and possibly some loans. We'll will help them if we are in a position to do so by then.

 

Basics:

Most people consider our house small. Our family of five lives in a 1250 square foot house with three bedrooms and one bathroom. We live in one of the worst neighborhoods in the city. I can keep our grocery bills (food, household supplies, bath & beauthy supplies, diapers/wipes) under $400 a month. Our tap water is safe to drink. We have enough clothing to keep us warm. Our heat & electricity bills are high because our house is old but we live somewhere cold enough to make heat a necessity. I've had an urgent medical issue come up when our phone wasn't working and our neighbors usually aren't home during the day so a phone is a required necessity but we only pay $3.45 a month for voice over ip. My husband's work requires a car so we must have one; his is paid off. I've lived without a second car and do so again if needed. My husband's work requires a cell phone. My husband's job requires high speed internet. We consider everything else to be extra. We qualify for HUD housing and children's medical. We are just barely over the limit for WIC and basic food assistance. We don't consider ourselves poor.

 

Depression:

I think many in this country will have a very hard time dealing with a major depression if we have one. They'll have no choice but to lose most of what they have because of debt load and their high cost of living. We will be okay regardless of what happens. Because of our low cost of living, my husband will be able to earn what we need to maintain close to our current standard of living. In a worst case scenario, there's more I can cut and I could go to work, too.

Edited October 16, 2008 by joannqn

[Mommyfaithe]

#1

I am amazed at something on the $250,000/year thread. Well, maybe more than one thing...but what stood out to me as I read through these is the student loan idea. Now I suppose one cannot get through medical school by alternating a year of work with a year of school, but I was surprised how often that cost was figured into the necesities of life. It was assumed, when I was in college, that I'd work my way through--whatever I had to do to make it work. A student loan was something one of my sisters did, and it was something that made our eyes open up really wide!

 

I went through college and grad school and my dh went through engineering school, and we worked our way through. I got a $200 scholarship from a little elderly lady who gave scholarships to people going into education. We worked all summer and worked a job during the school year, too. I know two students who are working full time AND going to school to pay the bills. Private school was not considered--unless it was the only place one could get the education they needed or unless they had the money or the scholarships to pay for it. It is not an easy way of doing it, I know. And not everyone would be able to pay every last cent off before graduation, but they should not be under their loans forever, either. This is the assumption I grew up with--pay as you go.

 

What think you? What am I missing in this equation? Are student loans a necessary evil to most folks today? Is it just my rearing that makes me see it this way? Am I looking at it from a poor-man's perspective?

 

#2

And if I may, I find it curious how different the list of "the basics" can be. My grandparents lost their farm during the depression. As long as they had a roof over their heads, clothing to keep their 8 children decent (including putting cardboard into the shoes to keep their feet from being exposed due to holes in the soles), enough food to keep them healthy, staying out of debt (or at least pay all the bills) and a few other basics (like firewood for warmth and a school for their children), they were contented--poor, but still "making it".

 

It is a long cry from the TV/VCR/computer/internet/multiple car/cell phone "poor" of today (we would be classified as poor by many U.S. standards, and we have all of that). I've also spent my time around missionaries who've lived in other countries. There is a very small percentage of people who are as poor in the the United States as the people they live with--people consider the Americans rich because they have more than one bowl in their kitchen.

 

So, wealth and poverty is, for the most part, something that must be defined prior to (or during) a discussion like this, right? And our past experiences are the basis of how we see it. I've often seen that those who grew up with more, find it harder to live with less; those who grew up with less, usually find it less taxing to life with less.

 

I still like the idea that we can be rich because we have a lot of money, or we can be rich because we have few needs.

 

It is hard to have few needs in America. No one wants to live in a dangerous neighborhood. We do not have adequate public transportation to live easily without a car (or two). College is expensive. Insurance is out of this world. Good jobs are getting harder to find. It is not possible to easily compare ourselves with the people of Nepal because their way of living is centered around the majority of people having a whole lot less.

 

So...what would YOU include in the "basics" of life here in the U.S.? Where is the line drawn between having the basics and being comfortable, or being comfortable and having it nice? How do we define poor?

 

#3

And that leads me to the thoughts of speculation: If the economy would really bottom out long term (not that I'm predicting this), how will the people of this nation deal with having to live below what they consider the poverty line? As a nation, are we stoic enough to do it or ??? Would it cause a revolution? Will our government survive it and remain as it is (history shows that Republics do not last forever). Are we still the "pull ourselves up by our bootstrap" type of Americans as we were in the past?

 

Just curious. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jean

 

 

OH MY GOSH JEAN...I am so with you.

 

I worked my way through High School because my family needed me to. I worked my way through College without loans...albeit with some financial aid...but I worked too.

I still work...A LOT!

 

My kids have jobs and work a lot!

 

We are not poor...but boy have we been...and I mean living on under 14,000 a year...and I can not belive what people consider NECESSITIES!!

 

and not only necessity...but feel ENTITLED to. Our politicans tell us EVERYONE is ENTITLED to college and they are ENTITLED to a college education...WHAT????

 

I though a college education was earned by studying hard, making good grades, having a brain in your head and using it to progress on life's path...BOY did I make a mistake. I should have realized I was ENTITLED to go to a really expensive private school where I was ENTITLED to the best top-notch education, while piling up loans, instead of actually working my way through community college and state college. YEESH!! What was I thinking??

 

I wish I had known I was ENTITLED to take out a huge mortgage and then get bailed out and re-financed at government expense (and then taxpayerexpense) instead of waiting 20 years to finally buy a house we can't live in because it is too small...but it was an investment we could afford....

 

Obviously I am being sarcastic...but I am just burned up by the spend...spend ...spend mentality. I was raised by parents who had gone through the depression as children and who did not buy what they could not pay for...now I am finding out I have been raised all wrong?? Now I am finding that if I go way over my head in debt, teach my kids they are entitled to an education, so don't bother to work hard honey, you will be granted an education anyway, and we are supposed to be ok with all this??

 

I am shocked and dismayed that our country would come this far in so short of time. What about our resilience and work ethic?? What happened to our ingenuity and living inside ones means and then helping our next generation to rise and blossom.

 

I feel really jaded today...maybe I am hormonal too...BUT GEE Whiz...when do we wake up and realize that this type of ENTITLEMENT is not acceptable.

 

AND $250,000 a year is very well off....no matter where you live...and if it is not...you need to find a cheaper place to live.

 

~~Faithe (who really need sot get back to work and earn her daily bread.)

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

OH MY GOSH JEAN...I am so with you.

 

I worked my way through High School because my family needed me to. I worked my way through College without loans...albeit with some financial aid...but I worked too.

I still work...A LOT!

 

My kids have jobs and work a lot!

 

We are not poor...but boy have we been...and I mean living on under 14,000 a year...and I can not belive what people consider NECESSITIES!!

 

and not only necessity...but feel ENTITLED to. Our politicans tell us EVERYONE is ENTITLED to college and they are ENTITLED to a college education...WHAT????

 

I though a college education was earned by studying hard, making good grades, having a brain in your head and using it to progress on life's path...BOY did I make a mistake. I should have realized I was ENTITLED to go to a really expensive private school where I was ENTITLED to the best top-notch education, while piling up loans, instead of actually working my way through community college and state college. YEESH!! What was I thinking??

 

I wish I had known I was ENTITLED to take out a huge mortgage and then get bailed out and re-financed at government expense (and then taxpayerexpense) instead of waiting 20 years to finally buy a house we can't live in because it is too small...but it was an investment we could afford....

 

Obviously I am being sarcastic...but I am just burned up by the spend...spend ...spend mentality. I was raised by parents who had gone through the depression as children and who did not buy what they could not pay for...now I am finding out I have been raised all wrong?? Now I am finding that if I go way over my head in debt, teach my kids they are entitled to an education, so don't bother to work hard honey, you will be granted an education anyway, and we are supposed to be ok with all this??

 

I am shocked and dismayed that our country would come this far in so short of time. What about our resilience and work ethic?? What happened to our ingenuity and living inside ones means and then helping our next generation to rise and blossom.

 

I feel really jaded today...maybe I am hormonal too...BUT GEE Whiz...when do we wake up and realize that this type of ENTITLEMENT is not acceptable.

 

AND $250,000 a year is very well off....no matter where you live...and if it is not...you need to find a cheaper place to live.

 

~~Faithe (who really need sot get back to work and earn her daily bread.)

 

Amen!

 

K

 

"Joe the Plumber for Prez..."

[Carrie12345]

 

and not only necessity...but feel ENTITLED to. Our politicans tell us EVERYONE is ENTITLED to college and they are ENTITLED to a college education...WHAT????

 

I though a college education was earned by studying hard, making good grades, having a brain in your head and using it to progress on life's path...BOY did I make a mistake. I should have realized I was ENTITLED to go to a really expensive private school where I was ENTITLED to the best top-notch education, while piling up loans, instead of actually working my way through community college and state college. YEESH!! What was I thinking??

 

I wish I had known I was ENTITLED to take out a huge mortgage and then get bailed out and re-financed at government expense (and then taxpayerexpense) instead of waiting 20 years to finally buy a house we can't live in because it is too small...but it was an investment we could afford....

 

<snip>

 

I feel really jaded today...maybe I am hormonal too...BUT GEE Whiz...when do we wake up and realize that this type of ENTITLEMENT is not acceptable.

 

AND $250,000 a year is very well off....no matter where you live...and if it is not...you need to find a cheaper place to live.

 

~~Faithe (who really need sot get back to work and earn her daily bread.)

 

I do agree that there is an entitlement problem in this country. The concept of free college for all is not something I agree with. However, I would like to see college more accessible to more people. Accessible, not handed to.

 

As far as money and location, finding a cheaper place to live would be a no-brainer for those who earn $250k/yr on their investments or from trust fund. Those who work for $250k/yr in a high COL area are unlikely to find $250k salaries in lower COL areas.

 

While my family is nowhere near that income, ours is most definitely based on the fact that my husband works primarily in NYC and North Jersey. We have chosen to increase the value of his income by living a good distance from his job, but we sacrifice family time for that.

 

If we were to move to an even more rural area, my husband would not have limitless commercial buildings to work in, lowering his value to an employer. Lower value equals lower salary. Lower opportunity equals lower commission. Sure, a lower cost of living would make that easier to swallow, but it would put us in the same exact lifestyle. Lower, actually, since we value being within driving distance of our extended family.

[RebeccaC]

I have not read all of this thread but I am going to dive in a bit different way.... Before I do tho here is background on me, my parents were missionaries in the bush in Ethiopia and I have been over seas in a few third world countries. Growing up there was more than one year when all we got for Christmas was an orange and we thought we were lucky. My folks got food stamps often while raising 8 kids with my dad in endless grad schools and pastoring starter churches. As a young adult on my own I have live in poverty and in some pretty scary places while working my way through what seemed like never ending college. My grandparents were adults during the great depression and my mother's parents, who live in OK could tell stories that would make the hair stand up on the back of your head.

 

Now to my point and one of the reasons why I view 250,000 as the breaking point between being really wealthy and upper middle class. When our son was 20 months old he had a series of night terrors over 3 weeks which began a regression in him. Between ages 24 months and 30 he made a rapid nose dive from being an obviously gifted baby, pecking tunes out on the piano, speaking and running at 5 months, etc... to be severely Autistic, what he had was something called LKSv that present as autistic but is treatable medicaly but that is for another discussion.

 

At that time the therapy that worked for kids on the spectrum was ABA Applied Behavior Analysis or Lovaas. To really do Lovaas right the bill would be around 80 to 100,000. a year. It was pretty standard then and even now that once an insurance companies see the dx Autism they stop paying for therapy. Before the formal dx we had speech and OT paid by insurance after no payment. At that time dh was making 30 to 35,000 a year. JFS in IL knew me then and how we met was at a support group for parents with kids on the spectrum.

 

Now it just so happened that Speaker Hastert was our congressman and that some one in my church knew him personally and was a big player in IL and national politics. Once Hastert heard about my kids he wanted to meet me and from there CAN, and for awhile I, was able to lobby in Washington. Through CAN, Cure Autism Now, I met families all over the united states in all kinds of financial states. I met high paid DC lawyers making 250,000 a year but spending 100,000 on Lovaas. I met premier scientist in the medical field who had pantens on medical equipment making close to 250,000 but spending again 100,000 for Lovaas plus money to see other docs to treat the autism his son had. They were lucky in that they had the funds to pay for needed treatment. I also met families who could not deal with their child with autism and after a few years of Lovaas and little to no improvement had to place the child in a home and so out of their pocket came the money to pay for placement in a place where they would not have to worry that their mute child would be sexually abused. I knew families who saved most of their income for when they died so that their adult son or daughter with Autism could be placed in a safe place.

 

This past summer one way I fed my kids was to go to local food pantries and stand in line. It was humiliating at first but it was do that or default on our mortgage that had adjusted up on our 550 sq foot, 1 bath, 2 bedroom, fixer upper house. If I were to compare our income to 250,000 I would think Wow that is wealthy, stinking rich, what we could do with...... Why on earth am I standing in food lines while some one, some where is eating way better than we are, living in a much nicer house, driving a car younger than 20! I could get really angry, envious, think they should pay more taxes or...... However I then thought of the folks I knew making 250,000 paying close to 150,000 a year between Lovaas and Dr. Chez or another MD to save their son or daughter and remember hearing that they had done the same after selling every thing they had.

 

I also talked on the phone or met folks to strategize how to get a bill through congress who made 7 figures and they had no worries financially but would have given all of those 7 figures to heal their son or daughter and no matter how much money they threw at Lovaas or.... nothing helped. Bottom line is I ended up more wealthy than all of those folks, and God only knows why because I am no better, but my son responded to medical treatment, was able to tolerate the meds and today could not be dx as Autistic. My sons have their health we are wealthier than some multimillionaires I know and some folks who made 250,000 a year living a higher life style than we ever have and that is humbling. I am eternally grateful but sometimes I wonder why........

 

I often think of this saying, comparison is the death of contentment. Money can be lost in a day like we have seen in the last couple of weeks or it can be lost through and unforeseen tragedy like Autism or some other illness not covered by insurance or it can be lost...... I suppose that the ideal, living in a small town in the middle of nowhere making 250,000 a year is wealthy as long as there is no other mitigating circumstance that sucks the wealth out of the 250,000. Those of you making 24, 30, 50,000 a year may be wealthier than the folks making 250,000 who just learned that their two year old is severely autistic. I know I was even standing in line once or twice a week at a food pantry this summer.

[Only me]

I think it is a difficult situation. My dd is a junior in high school and does not work. We feel that it is more important for her to get good grades and to remain healthy. She may get a part-time job this summer but it depends on what she can find. We can't afford to buy a 3rd car. If she needs the car every day or I ended up having to drive her to her job so that I won't be without a car it may not be worth it. She doesn't have a lot of options close by and depending upon how much gas costs at the time it may not be worth it. My nephew bought a car last year after his junior year. In order to pay for insurance and to make car payments he had to work part-time. Because of the cost of gas his whole paycheck was taken by the car payment, insurance and gas. He wasn't able to save any money. It doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

If she continues with the GPA that she has right now there is a decent chance that she will get some kind of a scholarship. If she doesn't get a scholarship she will have to go to the 2 year college and then to a state college to finish up. I'm sure she will work during college but I doubt she would make enough money to pay for everything. Even state schools are so expensive now.

 

We will help her as much as possible but won't be able to pay for everything, especially since her sister is only 3 years younger than she is. We may not have any other option than for her to take out a loan.

[Scarlett]

I often think of this saying, comparison is the death of contentment. Money can be lost in a day like we have seen in the last couple of weeks or it can be lost through and unforeseen tragedy like Autism or some other illness not covered by insurance or it can be lost...... I suppose that the ideal, living in a small town in the middle of nowhere making 250,000 a year is wealthy as long as there is no other mitigating circumstance that sucks the wealth out of the 250,000. Those of you making 24, 30, 50,000 a year may be wealthier than the folks making 250,000 who just learned that their two year old is severely autistic. I know I was even standing in line once or twice a week at a food pantry this summer.

 

Your post was very moving. I am happy your child has improved. And while I agree with everything in the above paragraph, that doesn't change the fact that a person who makes 250K is better off financially than the person who makes 25K. Can other factors determine how much disposable income is left? Certainly. But the beginning salary of 250K is still 250K.

[Renee in NC]

Your post was very moving. I am happy your child has improved. And while I agree with everything in the above paragraph, that doesn't change the fact that a person who makes 250K is better off financially than the person who makes 25K. Can other factors determine how much disposable income is left? Certainly. But the beginning salary of 250K is still 250K.

 

Right. Because the person at $25K who has an autistic child doesn't have the options. At least the person at $250K CAN pay for the therapy. I have 2 (or even 3) children that could benefit from several kinds of therapy that are simply not an option for us. If I had $250K, even if I spent $225K on therapies, my dc would be better off.

[Audrey]

#1

I am amazed at something on the $250,000/year thread. Well, maybe more than one thing...but what stood out to me as I read through these is the student loan idea. Now I suppose one cannot get through medical school by alternating a year of work with a year of school, but I was surprised how often that cost was figured into the necesities of life. It was assumed, when I was in college, that I'd work my way through--whatever I had to do to make it work. A student loan was something one of my sisters did, and it was something that made our eyes open up really wide!

 

I went through college and grad school and my dh went through engineering school, and we worked our way through. I got a $200 scholarship from a little elderly lady who gave scholarships to people going into education. We worked all summer and worked a job during the school year, too. I know two students who are working full time AND going to school to pay the bills. Private school was not considered--unless it was the only place one could get the education they needed or unless they had the money or the scholarships to pay for it. It is not an easy way of doing it, I know. And not everyone would be able to pay every last cent off before graduation, but they should not be under their loans forever, either. This is the assumption I grew up with--pay as you go.

 

What think you? What am I missing in this equation? Are student loans a necessary evil to most folks today? Is it just my rearing that makes me see it this way? Am I looking at it from a poor-man's perspective?

 

#2

And if I may, I find it curious how different the list of "the basics" can be. My grandparents lost their farm during the depression. As long as they had a roof over their heads, clothing to keep their 8 children decent (including putting cardboard into the shoes to keep their feet from being exposed due to holes in the soles), enough food to keep them healthy, staying out of debt (or at least pay all the bills) and a few other basics (like firewood for warmth and a school for their children), they were contented--poor, but still "making it".

 

It is a long cry from the TV/VCR/computer/internet/multiple car/cell phone "poor" of today (we would be classified as poor by many U.S. standards, and we have all of that). I've also spent my time around missionaries who've lived in other countries. There is a very small percentage of people who are as poor in the the United States as the people they live with--people consider the Americans rich because they have more than one bowl in their kitchen.

 

So, wealth and poverty is, for the most part, something that must be defined prior to (or during) a discussion like this, right? And our past experiences are the basis of how we see it. I've often seen that those who grew up with more, find it harder to live with less; those who grew up with less, usually find it less taxing to life with less.

 

I still like the idea that we can be rich because we have a lot of money, or we can be rich because we have few needs.

 

It is hard to have few needs in America. No one wants to live in a dangerous neighborhood. We do not have adequate public transportation to live easily without a car (or two). College is expensive. Insurance is out of this world. Good jobs are getting harder to find. It is not possible to easily compare ourselves with the people of Nepal because their way of living is centered around the majority of people having a whole lot less.

 

So...what would YOU include in the "basics" of life here in the U.S.? Where is the line drawn between having the basics and being comfortable, or being comfortable and having it nice? How do we define poor?

 

#3

And that leads me to the thoughts of speculation: If the economy would really bottom out long term (not that I'm predicting this), how will the people of this nation deal with having to live below what they consider the poverty line? As a nation, are we stoic enough to do it or ??? Would it cause a revolution? Will our government survive it and remain as it is (history shows that Republics do not last forever). Are we still the "pull ourselves up by our bootstrap" type of Americans as we were in the past?

 

Just curious. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jean

 

 

I could have written #1 and most of #2 of your post myself. You aren't the only one with those thoughts. FWIW, I think you're spot on!

[Colleen in NS]

It is not possible to easily compare ourselves with the people of Nepal because their way of living is centered around the majority of people having a whole lot less.

 

So...what would YOU include in the "basics" of life here in the U.S.?

 

$250,000 would pay off the mortgage on our 36 year old 1100 sq. ft. 3BR, one bathroom house, get us a replacement vehicle (necessary for dh's job) when the 14 year old paid-for Honda isn't fixable anymore, and create a huge-to-us savings to generate interest that would contribute to our below poverty line income.

 

Anyway, I agree that we North Americans can't compare ourselves to people living in other countries, though I do all the time, because I've traveled in several of those countries. I *know* I could do with less stuff, because it's not necessary to life and health.

 

The thing I find hard is, when I'm trying to do with less, in order to live within our means, I feel pressure to live with "more." It's not that people directly put pressure on, it's the subtle things. Most 40 year olds around me don't let their gray hair show. So I finally gave in a few weeks ago and coloured mine. But if other 40 year olds around me all let their gray hair show, my grays wouldn't have bothered me. Many of my peers wouldn't go out and pick 80 lb. of apples off the ground to get them for half price, or lug home 2 huge pumpkins for $5 each. But I did because it's how we live within our income. I felt ridiculous picking apples off the ground while others picked them from the trees, and when the boy putting the pumpkins in my van laughed at me (but I didn't let my kids know that, I just talked it up how wonderful it was to find these cheap prices and won't all that applesauce and pumpkin muffins taste great over the winter?). And yet I know that many people around the world do these things as a regular way of life, and it's not shameful for them. Or even things related to homeschooling, like going to this event or that outing. I consider them fun, but not necessary. Still, when people are asking if I'm taking the kids to this, or signing up for that, I feel that subtle pressure that I'm doing my kids a disservice if I don't. But I don't actually believe it's a disservice to them - it's just hard to feel that subtle pressure.

 

For basics in North America, I would say some sort of shelter to protect from the elements (I'd happily sell our house and move to a smaller apt. and make it work), nutritious food bought cheaply (we eat a lot of beans, they're very versatile), and clothing to protect from the elements (we have wonderful thrift stores in this area and I haven't bought retail clothing in years). Necessary health care (I thank God it's free here in Canada - I know it's a huge issue in the States). Transportation that gets you where you need to go to produce an income, collect your food, and get your health care. Basic education for kids (reading, writing, math, and a huge variety of books on all sorts of subjects from libraries). Not sure what I think about the college thing yet, though I'd be happy if they earned a degree with little or no debt. I keep thinking there have to be creative ways to do that here.

 

ETA: I mentioned that we live below the poverty line, but we are warm, fed, clothed, watered, and sheltered. And I feel like we have a surplus of material goods like square footage, books, electronic/electrical devices, toys, etc..

Edited October 17, 2008 by Colleen in NS

[Jennifer3141]

DH had $120,000 worth of student loans for his medical degree only when he graduated from medical school. He made it through 2 years, 7 months of his residency when he became gravely ill. He didn't finish his residency and thus was not able to practice as a physician until 7 YEARS later. In that 7 years, he accumulated interest and penalties and at the end of it all, his medical degree will cost us $200,000 - right around what it costs to go to UofM medical school nowadays.

 

We could have declared bankruptcy and his illness would have wiped out his medical school debt. He choose not to do that. He wants it because he did it.

 

Had he not become ill, we would have stayed in that city living in a very modest loft condominium he paid $80,000 for 10 years ago. We'd have stayed there until the student loans were all paid off. It was too small for us but we'd have made it work. The kitchen still cracks me up when I go there. We have to keep the microwave on top of the refrigerator because there's NO counter space in it. So to have a microwave cup o' soup at my condo, you must be at least 5 foot 8 or you can't reach the "start" button top of my microwave. :D

 

Life didn't work out that way. So we moved 100 miles away where the pay was much better. We'll have the student loans paid off in 4 more years but there's a $75,000 balloon payment at the end of the loan we have to prepare for.

 

Then we'll think about owning another property. We kept our condo in case something happens to him again someday. I can make the payment on the condo flipping burgers if that happens.

 

Before the national financial crisis, it cracked me up that mortgage lenders would call us and try to woo us into purchasing a house. Oh heck no! I'm not buying a house when we're already making a house payment in the form of a student loan. No way. We rent a cheap house but it's on the water which we've discovered we're willing to save more and wait more to live on again. I drive a 2000 Ford Focus. DH drives a 2003 Jeep. Both are paid off.

 

Sometimes, even with the best of plans something goes terribly awry. I see people live on credit cards and second mortages everyday. I think they are nuts. But had my DH not experienced the almost total loss of everything he spent his youth working for, we might be that stupid too. I feel kind of sorry for people who are just beholden to their stuff. Stuff goes. It breaks. You sometimes break and can't get more stuff. It's just stuff.

 

DH's entire undergrad degrees at UofM came from scholarship money. He worked a little in college but it's competitive as heck to get into medical school and DH has always know that was his plan so he studied the entire time. There are no scholarships like that for most advanced degrees though. You can join the Army and they'll pay for med school. Two of DH's friends did that. One was killed in a freak accident overseas and the other did ok, except they kept him longer than they said they would which was very hard on his family.

 

So unless you want all your doctors and all your attorneys and everyone else with advanced degrees to come from a background that has $200,000 or more to pay for those degrees, we need student loans.

 

I don't think everyone needs a 4 year degree anymore. I think that has become a scam the colleges perpetuated in order to get more students. I've got friends whose kids have acquired $80,000 worth of student loans for a liberal arts degree. What the heck are they going to do once they graduate? We've put such a social stigma on things like auto mechnanics which is really hard to do and deserves good pay. But no one wants to send their kids to a "tradeschool." That's yucky! So instead we're cranking out kids with useless degrees who have a HOUSE'S worth of debt.

 

Jen

[Scarlett]

For basics in North America, I would say some sort of shelter to protect from the elements (I'd happily sell our house and move to a smaller apt. and make it work), nutritious food bought cheaply (we eat a lot of beans, they're very versatile), and clothing to protect from the elements (we have wonderful thrift stores in this area and I haven't bought retail clothing in years). Necessary health care (I thank God it's free here in Canada - I know it's a huge issue in the States). Transportation that gets you where you need to go to produce an income, collect your food, and get your health care. Basic education for kids (reading, writing, math, and a huge variety of books on all sorts of subjects from libraries). Not sure what I think about the college thing yet, though I'd be happy if they earned a degree with little or no debt. I keep thinking there have to be creative ways to do that here.

 

 

Ds8 and I had a long discussion not long ago about the necessities of life. We came up with food/clothing/shelter and love. :)

 

I've mentioned this on this board before, but rarely do I step into a hot shower that I don't thank God for the clean water and the hot water tank.

 

Rarely is it raining outside that I don't think of how grateful I am to be dry and wonder how the guys down under the bridge are doing.

 

One time when I was a kid---about 10---my single mother was renting this house and the landlord would not fix the plumbing. (That was probably illegal but that is another thread for another day). She moved us to this little house on the edge of town in the middle of a cow pasture. It was 4 rooms...just an old square house. There was a big chainlink fence around the house to keep the cows out of our yard. There was no indoor plumbing at all. I cannot tell you how happy we were to have that house. My mom must have worked like a dog to keep us clean and warm...hauling water from a well for dishes and baths....and we had a wood stove for heat. But we were clean, warm and very happy. I remember she bought some paint...and we painted the rooms pretty colors...and everything was so fresh and clean. And there was no sewer backing up in our house.

 

We stayed there for about 4-6 months until she finished a clerical course of some sort and got a job in an office in a near-by town.

 

Anyway, I am rambling on, but my point is life can be very good and happy with very very little. Oh and btw, even though my mom was the adult in that, she too remembers it as a good time.

 

Oh, and I also wanted to add that I do get the societal pressure...wanna know the best part about that house on the prairie? It was the first stop of the bus route so no one else had to see where we lived. ;)

[LMA]

Hi,

 

Back from Tanzania. I'm catching up.

 

Here are two articles worth reading about the college game and student loans. I am of the opinion student loans are not worth it even for a 'name'.

 

When I was in grad school, all grad students in my dept. had financial support from either the university or from the company they were working for (tuition scholarships, assistantships, fellowships) or from private sources. No one had student loans. That was the culture of grad school at the time.

 

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/04/07/miller

 

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.28460,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

 

I haven't read anyone's responses (no time) so don't know if this is of interest or not.

 

Louise

[bettyandbob]

I do think some views of basic needs are skewed. I do also think student loans are becoming necessary for most people to attend college.

 

When I went to school I could pay all tuition on what I earned as a lifeguard if I worked indoors part time during the school year. I didn't need to because my parents helped. Back then my brother and sister went to VA Tech and the bill (tuition, housing, food, books) was 2-3K a year. I was expensive. I went to William and Mary and my total costs came in about 5K a year. Since then, college fee increases have far outpaced what someone can earn through high school and in summer jobs. Not everyone can get a scholarship. If you work a year and take a year off, you hurt yourself in some careers. If you work a year and take a year off you also have health insurance coverage gaps. Full time students can be covered by thier parent until age 21 and then they can get insurance through school while they attend. If you are taking a year off you are not covered by anyone--my family has health issues so I see this as a big risk.

 

When I got married, dh had loans for his law degree. We paid them off first. We lived frugally and we paid those off as fast as we could. Then, we bought a townhouse--one we could afford on one income even though I was always planning to work. We had one car until we'd been married for 5 years and work issues made commuting with public transit impossible.

 

I see a lot of people unable to put purchasing things until they have stronger income. My sis has never owned a car more than 4 years. She has a big house and readily complains about not being about to afford this or that. Thanks to my parents she graduated debt free but she has always felt she was entitled to more. I wished for more. I've envied at times, but I know I've made choices and when it comes down to it there is not job I'm too good for. We grew up in the same house. I don't know how the attitudes came out differently.