Ellen, right now things are under control. However I am going to keep you in mind and I will let you know. I live about a mile from JFS so it is nice to know that there is another WTminer new by :o)

I haven't been on the boards in a long while my sons graduated but I am a real life friend of JFSinIL for about 18 years. Her son posted the other day and I am bringing y'all an update...... The latest update on Jody (JFSinIL) as of last night, She will be in ICU through at lease Monday and they think perhaps longer. Tentatively on Monday she will have surgery to repair her broken Tibia just below the knee. Surgery will only happen if her internal injuries are healed enough to give her the strength to endure the work that needs to be done on her leg. The hospital used a lift to get Jody sitting up in a chair for several hours yesterday. She looks stronger but is have hallucinations due amount and strength of the pain meds. So far they are sweet while I was there she thought there was a baby being christened in her room and she was excited about it. I suppose if you have to have such a reaction to meds that is a good one. So wish and pray that if this side effect continues it will remain sweet. Her husband is suppose to come home today but he will be in a hospital bed that is now set up in their living room and he will have in home nursing staff to help him. I will not go out there today as her husband and kids will be there I will go back out Saturday. It is about an 1.5 hour drive to the hospital she was airlifted to. Today am doing some phone errands, etc for JFS and posting this update

HippoCampus has; Biology Environmental Science Physics (new course) US History US government Psychology Religion Algebra Calculus Statistics http://www.hippocampus.org/American%20Government;jsessionid=041B54838059A8C50252FECBE9ED896B Last year we found a set of older high school biology videos from School Tomorrow which I paid $5.00 for at a church garage sale. The set of 24 videos had several dissection and other experiments as part of the class. I also found from various other places used high school biology texts and got several living books to supplement with from the local library or used from eBay or Amazon Market place vendors for cheap. Spent no more than $20 for books all total and that included 2 college biology coloring books. This past summer eBay had several auctions that closed for under $20 of several different School of Tomorrow high school science videos. Keep an eye on eBay for video, DVD, and textbooks for cheap. I got some teaching company videos off eBay for next to nothing. On eBay I picked up all of the Teaching company Shakespeare lecture tapes for $20. Latest find tho was Amazon market place where I snatched up, on video for $9. Dr. Fears, Churchill lectures. Library sales are good places to look. I bought all most all of the BBC Shakespeare plays on video for $20 or so when our local library went to DVD. I routinely check several libraries with in driving distance of our home for goodies going cheap, picked up PBS' Liberty; the American Revolution videos for $1. and just got 7 Frank Capra's WWII documentaries videos for a $1 also. I have had to learn how to get things cheap for the last 8 years or so and we seldom pay list price for anything. Picked up Spielvogel's World History the Human Odyssey for a $1 in a used book store one year. If you live near a large college check out the used books store around the school for good deals. History that year was a $1. plus lots of borrowing from our local library for living books. Hope this helps.

I am put such a course together for my son. Here are some of the books he is or will be reading; What Darwin Didn't Know: A Doctor Dissects the Theory of Evolution-Geoffrey Simmons Fearfully and Wonderfully Made - Philip Yancey Gifted Hands The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat Total Health Body by Design The Way We Work Anatomy coloring book The Human Body Book (Book & DVD) The Disease Fighters: The Noble Prize in Medicine Our library has 15 copies of the TT's Understanding the Human Body: An introduction to Anatomy and Physiology, you might want to check your library for it. Fearfully & Wonderfully Made DVD Dr. David Menton Hope this gives you some ideas to spring board from.

My dh's step father Moshe marched with Martin Luther King because he identified with King. That does not mean he experienced the march the same way King did. Humanity does have a vested interest but it does not experience any of this the same way nor does it mean that all of humanity pays the same price. Moshe never worried about being lynch if he dated a white woman in the deep south during the 60s but a lot of the black men on that march did. Moshe tho did worry when he moved to Israel that he would die at the hands of a suicide bomber. My point is who has the greater interest those who will die or be harmed in a greater manner than those who will not. The men you posted chose to suffer the black men had no choice. I am really not sure where you picked this bit up in my writings I think you might be reading this with too much emotion but I could be wrong. I Have been posting about Catholics who assisted and movies and books about such, I posted about Cori Ten Boom, ect...... and the price they paid for assisting the Jews. That does not mean that they experienced the Holocaust in the same way. The Jews had no choice Corie Ten Boom, Sophie Scoll, ect... chose to take chances that might put them in harms way when they could have chosen to stay safe, which is what most Germans, Dutch, Pols, ect chose their personal safety. There is a big difference between the two, having a choice and not having a choice. Who is more heroic those who make the choice to assist that might lead to suffering or those who are forced to suffer for no reason other than their ethnicity or religion? I just think Bill was out of place telling me I was disrespectful since he does not come from a background that made a choice to suffer real pain and loss with nor is he of Jewish decent. Again I might be presumptuous maybe some one in his family hid Jews and were sent to camps for it, I don't know..... What I do know is he has made a choice to empathize with Eliana and that is a good start however there was no risk in that choice he made.

Elizabeth, you are right that was a bit off handed. Bottom line is tho if one is Jewish or of Jewish extraction this hits closer to home than those who are not. I did not write what I did for pity's sake and to read it as so is to do so in a presumptuous manner. Bill is not a Jew nor is he of Jewish extraction and his comment on being disrespectful because he is worried that Eliana might get her feelings hurt is ........ especially in light of the fact that no one had quoted her or named her is a far stretch. That is true but I would wager that Bill does not worry that Prejudice against or hatred of Jews - known as antisemitism will raise it head and hurt his children. The only people who worry about that are Jews or folks of Jewish decent. On the other hand maybe he does but I have followed enough of his posts to know that it is a long shot. Should antisemitism concern all of humanity yes. Should racism in all it forms concern all of humanity yes. However no one would argue that what a black experienced during the civil right movement was the same as what a non black experienced. One could say that a Black had a more vested interest in the civil rights movement and its out come than a none black did. It is the same with the Nazi Holocaust. That is not fishing for pity it is just a fact. More Jews died during the Nazi Holocaust than any other group. In this discussion I have more of a vested interest than Bill does. That is just a fact.

Bill feelings do nothing to stop Holocausts. I have 2 sons and my sister has 3 daughters who are of Jewish blood. I do not want them or my grandchildren to face what my fil or great uncle did. Hitler killed Jewish Christian converts just like he did secular and religious Jews and just like he killed folks who just had 1/8 of Jewish blood in them. I have strong feelings invested in this more than you do and probably different from Eliana but I would wager maybe just as strong. More to the point I find your post to me to be disrespectful if you want to go the fuzzy wuzzy feelings route. I know you are just trying to be kind and I like that about you but I really do have more invested in this than you do and when Eliana gets done with Shabbos I am sure she will be able to hold her own.

Often when people think about a right response to the Holocaust then think of the Hiding Place, Cori Ten Boom or Bonhoeffer which is good but a protestant response. I don't think this film has been mentioned, The Ninth Day which is a German film and based on the life story of several preists but mostly on Fr. Jean Bernard and takes place in part at Dachau concentration camp. A good book on the subject is Priestblock 25487: A Memoir of Dachau. The movie is in German I have heard it is as good as Sophie Scholl the Last days, which was very good, but I have yet to see The Ninth Day, I have it coming from Netflix. I think if you want a holistic approach you need to look at the Catholic response that was not Vatican directed. Many priests and Nuns and Catholic laymen gave their lives just like many protestant did. Of course not enough folks took the stand that the few did but...... Other Catholics to look at are Maximilian Kolbe who took the place of a Jewsih man who begged for his life and was deined food and water for at least 10 days before being injected with Carbolic acid. It is said that he spent the days of starvation and thirst singing and praying and encouraging those who were sentence with him. He will be brought up in the course I teach along with Paul and Silas singing in prison. Titus Brandsma and Edith Stein who was a German-Jewish philosopher (a Jewish convert if memory serves me right,) a Carmelite nun, who died at Auschwitz.

I am not so sure that it is disrespectful Bill. My family was part of the Nazi Holocaust so I have given this much thought. It is part of the fabric of who my family is and what they have experienced. Was your family part of it? I mean other than editing a film about it? I was trained as a scientist, have a Jewish back ground, and am a practicing Christian, spent time in Holland studying the Dutch response as a college student, time in the Ten Boom house in Haarlem, Time in Amsterdam, at Yad Vashem, and Hebrew U. I am not grinding an ax but giving a different some what knowledgeable perspective to lend to some of the off shoots of this conversation that might come up in conversation with a high school student studying this difficult subject. If we want this to never happen again we need to look at what caused it to happen in the first place and that is not simple nor black and white? The cause should be viewed from as many angles as possible with as little emotion as possible. There should be no area that should be off limits, whether it is Darwin or Christian or political..... Why because I don't want my family or any other family to experience it again. If that is grinding an ax Bill ....... If folks want to honestly teach their high school kids about this then they need to look at it from a whole lot of angles something film often does not bring. My hope this that they will think about the different angles I have presented here when it comes to discussing what their kids see in film, read, and the questions their kids might have from the exposure they get. Isn't that how folks teach high school kids? Right now I am sure your pre-school and kers are not asking hard questions so you are not thinking about this subject like the hsing parent of high school kids would. I might not be expressing my self well but what I am doing is giving different background to a hard subject that I have studied quite a bit and that has touched my family.

There have been several Holocaust type events in Jewish history, the most recent have been done by folks whose culture was Christian. The writings of Luther helped in Germany but the German government was not Christian although the German culture was. There are several Feasts that serve to remind us of our deliverance, did we not just finish with Purim and that was not caused by Christians and is not Passover coming up and that also was not caused by Christians, the events that caused Hanukkah were not perpetrated by Christians and of course the ancient captivities whether Babylonian around 597 or Assyrian Captivity in 722 or Roman were not Christian based and predate Christianity or in the case of the 70 ad before Christianity was held on a national level. This does not even begin to touch on what modern and historic Islam are responsible for. Antisemitism is a far broader in scope than being just a Christian based. I am sure that Eliana and anyone who is Jewish is well aware that a Holocaust can happen without Christian influence. I think and hope they are also aware that they are not the only people group who have faced such hardships. I am part Cherokee and Osage Indian and history tells the story of the trail of tears which members of my family experienced and some were Christian in faith when it happened as was our nation. When I was a child we had close family friends who survived the Armenian, Assyrians, and Greeks, Genocide or sometimes called the Armenian Holocaust perpetrated by the Ottoman empire which was Islamic. I grew up hearing stories from them about that time. Stories of similar horror to the Nazi Holocaust. One of my brothers was given the name of Andrew which was the name of the survivor. That is how close a family friend these folks were. I could mention what is happening right now in the Sudan and that of course is Islamic violence towards Christians. This type of horror has been played out by many races, religions, and nations on many races, religions, and nations all through history. The Holocaust that Germans perpetrated was well document by film, photo, and bureaucratic documentation by the Germans and was carried out by a well educated humanistic modern people nation. The major difference between all the people groups who have faced genocide and the Jews is that the Hebrew people have retained their identity after multiple national and religious genocides over the span of history when other people groups have lost theirs through only one or two such genocides. The million dollar question is why have the Hebrew people survived and sometimes thrived without a homeland for so long. That of course has an answer based in the promises God made to the Patriarchs and Prophets of the Hebrews, or at least that is my world view. There is a price that comes with being the Chosen people of God and I know that some Jews hate the idea that they were chosen but that is what God's word states and history bears witness to. What makes the genocide carried out by people from a Christian culture and who claim to be Christian against Jews more bitter in flavor is that Christians claim to hold sacred the Hebrew Scriptures. They claim to worship the same God and in God's name have justified the killing of Jews, to me this is particularly heinous, diabolical, based in ignorance, demands a certain twisting debasing profaning of scripture to arrive at, and is illogical. It is almost a type of patricide in my view.

There are many ways to view the Holocaust. I want to weigh in on this because it has touched our family. Dh's step father is a survivor and our oldest son is named for my great uncle who escaped Denmark the night Hitler invaded. Neither dh nor I were raised as Jews so I think our perspective is a bit different from Eliana's. We are both Christians with varying degrees of Jewish backgrounds. His mother was an ultra orthodox Jew who lived in the neighborhoods just above Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. I am right now developing a course on a high school level and on a Bible school college level on this subject but from a different angle. The Bible college level course will be titled something like the Righteous Response to the Final Solution. It is still up in the air what the high school course will be titled but it will probably be, History of Non-Violent Resistance during WWII. Part of what will be explored is what was different about the Christianity of Corrie Ten boom, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Maximilian Kolbe, ect..... and most of the rest of Europe. Was Oskar Schindler a modern type of the Biblical Cyrus. What was the motivation of the White Rose resistance, their Christian beliefs or a more humanistic response. Why did the Danes stand up as a nation and the Dutch, German, Polish, ect.... did not. Other folks who worked against Hitler in Europe will also be looked at I just do not have time to post them all. This will be paired with Biblical studies on what does it mean to a be a type of or shadow of a Hebrew midwife, a Cyrus, One of the 3 Hebrew Children, and did Jeremiah influence the parents of the 3 Hebrew Children and Daniel and if so how did that influence play out in their parenting, how was Jesus and Stephen able to pray Father forgive them... as they died and how were Paul and Silas able to sing praises in a dark prison after being flogged, and finally what does it mean, no greater love than this to lay down your life for a friend and to go beyond that and lay down your life for a stranger. One thing that I will bring up is there is a difference between those who are Christian for cultural reasons, because grandma was or some medieval king made us convert and those who have a real relationship with Christ. There is a difference between being religious and having a living relationship with Christ and just what is that difference and how does that play out in our relationship with unrighteous governments? My step-fil was hid by Corrie Ten booms group as were his brothers. I think that it is an easy argument that Corrie's families core relationship with their God motivated their actions where as the cultural Christianity of many Europeans allowed other wise good folks to look the other way or even to participate. While my step-fil was spared his parents were both gassed. My uncle for whom my oldest son is named was the only survivor of his immediate family and he survive because of the attitude of the Danish resistance. Until her death a couple of years ago my step-fil visited the woman who hid him and raised him from 3 to 10 in Holland. He said that he did not remember his mother and that the Dutch woman was the closest person to being a mother to him on earth. I also think it is fair to look and debate the idea that Darwinism might help to legitimize world views that profane life, views that might not be legitimized if Evolution were not held like it is. In other words did Darwinism help to propel Eugenics? Eugenics were certainly part of the foundation of the final solution but was the influence of Darwinism on the culture enough to birth Eugenics. Does Darwinism have any bearing on how life is valued today? I do not want to debate this right now I just think it is fair and prudent to ask these types of questions.

You really are clueless get out to where. Where do these folks get the first and last months rent for another place to live? Let em cake......... but there the problem was there was no cake...... In CA they are living in their cars and there is no one to buy up the thousands of houses that set empty there. Well there is China but they only want the big houses. Sounds nice, China owning a good chunk of the American dream. Not just federal debt but houses in American neighborhoods. Gives a whole nother meaning to the term slum lord. I know folks who begged their bank to let them sell low and the bank said no. They asked to have the loan modified the bank said no. They had the house on the market for more than a year and tried to do the smart thing. You know what they did they stopped paying the bank so they could save the money for the first and last months rent, better known as the deposit, which was good chunk of change when you have a family and need more than one bedroom. They spent 3 months sitting in the house the bank would soon take possession of and just before eviction they found a place to rent. If the bank had reopened the loan and modified it the folks would have staid on both had jobs with AA and second jobs and they had kids. That is the culture of sub prime when it really looks like you can't stay stop paying so that you can save for the rental deposit otherwise it's the street. Everyone has a future shot credit or not. My point is some times credit can not be save so whats the point of worrying about it. It was bad legislation that brought us this mess and it is legislation that should redo if possibile the havoc reaped. It does nothing to help fix the suffering to be smug about the right choices and the blessed life some have had and to make a leap to they made bad choices let them suffer. Whew, Thank God we did not. For all of you who are angry what does getting mad do? Nothing to but to further polarize the nation and rob you of your peace. Of course being mad has fuel some moves in history mobs in France or in Russia during certain times of social upheaval and my didn't both those turn out fine. Write your congressman, protest, serve at a soup kitchen but stop the we were so smart and did the right thing whine it does nothing to help. It sets up we are better than they mentality and so they deserve to suffer. Every week we help with a soup kitchen and several food pantries guess who is standing there getting food. Folks who used to be middle class are now the majority, not the folks with drug problems or similar problems. Folks who are embarrassed to be there but who are desparate. Those of you who say you know you would not take the money if you are losing your house have no idea the primeal emotions and desperation that losing a house brings out in a person. I think it is more accurate to say I hope I wouldn't but I haven't been there and from the high ground I feel like I wouldn't but if I it looked like my kids would be living in our van........ or a shelter...... or foster care or...... Just for the record I am sick at the money being thrown around by our government. I do not agree with it but I am also sick of the mantra of let em rent because I have seen where that simple smug solution leads.

I could be wrong but it is the FAA that stipulates how often a pilot and flight crew can fly and the unions just backed the FAA rules. If the the airlines do not follow FAA rules they get fine big time so I am not sure I would lay this all on the union. It is in part another fine example of big government messing things up. When I was in the air force I debriefed pilots and they flew quite a few more hours than what the FAA says is safe. The strongest union is the pilot's union. Pilots are a very small part of the company but out side of upper management the best paid. My dh's union is in mediation with a federal mediator right now and they have been without a contract since last fall. The rub to this whole thing with AA is upper management did not take cuts and each got millions in bonuses for getting unions and non-union workers to take cuts and promising they would suffer with the workers and as soon as the company did better they would give back what the workers gave them. They have gotten raises and bonuses up the wazoo since then but my dh has not even gotten a cost of living raise. The company is over heavy on middle management and working folks like my dh to the bone because they think cutting the folks doing dh's job and hiring more middle management who literally do nothing is the way to go. It has cost them plumb freight contracts because freight can't be moved fast enough with out workers to move it. So it is still being mismanaged. However it was making money before 9/11 and it has become very good at hiding its profits since then. I know this is a spin off from the OP however folks are looking at this in a simplistic way, "I am financially responsible and the majority of sub prime folks are not." It is not that black and white. There are a lot more folks as in mom and pop who are in hard for reasons other than greed or irresponsibility. To be honest some of what I read here smacks of self righteousness and an almost total lack of mercy or empathy. It is my tax dollar and I am angry.......... well the folks loosing their house paid taxes too....... did they not... is it fair that their tax dollar bail out the banks that have made tons of money on their backs? The truth is life is not fair. Tough luck sub primers...... The bankers got your tax dollars and you got the street. There is probably no way to know who was irresponsible or greedy and who has a legitimate hardship when it comes to the little guys. However it seems like folks are all to willing to think believe that the majority are or were irresponsible or greedy and I think that in part it is a bit of political spin they have swallowed and allow to grow into bitterness. That of course is my opinion........ and not worth getting ones panties in a bunch over if one disagrees with my opinion. In the mean time we count the empty houses for sale and the ones boarded and take bets on what the bids will be on the houses up for auction and wonder what happened to the people who lived in those houses..... But hey its great cause all of those who were smart and responsible can now snap up the foreclosed houses for cheap. Yeah for them they are the golden children on whom fortune shines. Who cares what happens to the folks who lost a dream as long as fortune shines on the smart who do their homework. And so Marie says, "Let em eat cake (rent)" Poor Marie she wasn't with out mercy she was just clueless to the suffering of her countrymen.

Hey ya'll remember the supposed quote by Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat cake" So how far from her is the new mantra of, "Let them rent" Wow talk about the tea party that happened for good ole Marie it was a head loser wasn't it. Let em rent sounds like a great slogan for a sticker bumper :lol: Does anybody remember what happened to the Cook county sheriff who stopped putting folks out of foreclosed house when too many of them turned out to be renters who had not missed a rent payment? I know a couple of those came home from work and were locked out. Google and you will see he just did not think it was right to evict renters who had no idea that the mortgage on the rental was not being paid. I saw a map the other day of where all the foreclosures were happening, CA, AZ, FL, MI, and Chicago and some other large metro areas. If you do not live in those areas it is easy to make this whole thing way too simple and pick up on the idea of just let'm rent. Hey any of y'all want to come and rent in Cook county? No worry there........ yep it's a darn fine solution:auto:

And what happens if you it is more expensive to rent? What happens if the bank won't let you sell low? Wow it really is so simple isn't it. Snap the fingers sell low and rent. What if the rental is foreclose on what then? I already posted about that..... I know quite a few American Airline workers who live in their cars, as does another poster on this thread. There's a great option! Car living, van living, bummer tho in the Chicago winters. But hey getting on with life is what is important isn't it? Ya it might take years.......... when did 9/11 happen anyway hmmmmm..... Hey its already been years.......... and folks are still living in their cars........ Whats with that...... Oh the simple life no property taxes, no utilities, no rental payments....... ;) what is credit anyway and why should one care if it is ruined while living in a :auto: