Health class, intrusive questions and privacy

[LMD]

As a young, new teacher he may be very idealistic and believes he is working in an environment in which he can truly making a difference in his students' lives in these matters. Likely his heart is in the right place.

 

But without much teaching experience or life experience especially if pretty much fresh out of college and green behind the ears as the saying goes, he may not realize the level of insensitivity he is displaying and the appropriateness of what he is requiring. So a more experienced educator needs to get his ear.

He should also be made aware that this sort of inappropriate boundary pushing is a red flag of predators. If he is legit then he needs to be more careful, and realise that he's setting these kids up with warped understandings of healthy Boundaries. Boundaries within the profession are there for good reason.

[LMD]

I'm fascinated that it seems I'm the only one who would honestly tell their kid, "That's crazy to ask for an assignment that's none of his business and extremely unprofessional to pry into your private thoughts and feelings about your personal life. That's not healthy expectation or examples. I guarantee you, you are not the only kid who doesn't like this. We can either both talk to him about it, or if you feel that will make the class unbearable, you have the option of civil disobediance and decide to refuse to do the personal assignments. I will back you up on that should the teacher or the school give you any grief over it. You do not owe these people an explaination of why you don't want to engage in group therapy with them for a grade."

 

And I also wonder if this teacher is prying so he can groom prey? Find the messed up kid who's desperate to confide and be listened to and exploit them? I know. Probably not. But when someone is so far out of line in abusing their position to get personal with a student - yep, I wonder why and wonder if maybe that's part of it.

I thought the same thing. I've seen it happen exactly that way. Said teacher is now in jail.

[Laurie4b]

As a former mental health professional, I would object to the class. That level of sharing should be overseen by a professional and would not be done outside of a group therapy environment with very specific safeguards for confidentiality. I imagine one of them would be teens wouldn't be from the same school because they are not always good at keeping confidentiality, even when they all share the same level of grief (say a support group for loss of a parent.) In a classroom setting where some teens have experienced almost no real grief (my dog died in high school. First experience with death), this is going to be exacerbated. 

 

You might consider raising the question of safeguards on student's mental health anonymously ---not necessarily with the teacher, but with the guidance counseling department or the school board. 

[HRAAB]

I've always told my girls they never have to share anything personal unless they are totally comfortable with it, and if it concerns a family situation, they need to talk to me or their dad first.  When my dad was sick before he passed away, there were other family issues going on in relation to his illness which created another whole layer of grief.  There is absolutely no way I would want my girls talking about those issues in a class.  This is an issue I've come across with church youth groups and retreats; they get very personal at times and there is a lot of pressure to share very personal stories.  I got into a rather heated argument with one youth minister over the subject.  

[Pen]

I'm fascinated that it seems I'm the only one who would honestly tell their kid, "That's crazy to ask for an assignment that's none of his business and extremely unprofessional to pry into your private thoughts and feelings about your personal life. That's not healthy expectation or examples. I guarantee you, you are not the only kid who doesn't like this. We can either both talk to him about it, or if you feel that will make the class unbearable, you have the option of civil disobediance and decide to refuse to do the personal assignments. I will back you up on that should the teacher or the school give you any grief over it. You do not owe these people an explaination of why you don't want to engage in group therapy with them for a grade."

 

And I also wonder if this teacher is prying so he can groom prey? Find the messed up kid who's desperate to confide and be listened to and exploit them? I know. Probably not. But when someone is so far out of line in abusing their position to get personal with a student - yep, I wonder why and wonder if maybe that's part of it.

 

 

I wondered this also.

 

 

It is another reason to at least send an anonymous note to the principal, since the most vulnerable of students may not have any adult to help them through this.  Whether or not he is a predator or just creating an emotionally unsafe classroom situation for some.

[Innisfree]

I talked with dd after picking her up this afternoon, and offered to send an anonymous letter to the teacher and the principal. She seems to like the idea of doing that after the class is over at the end of this semester, and she agrees that he clearly needs some counseling of his own.

 

She still is not willing to do anything right now, though. She says he's the sort of teacher who is trying to be friendly with his students, bumping fists with them and being chummy. She is quite certain that he would bring up the receipt of a letter in class and press to know who sent it, and she'd feel on the spot and uncomfortable.

 

When I met him briefly at orientation he just seemed very eager and earnest. I don't think he's straight out of college, but probably under thirty.

 

I told her on the way home that I wouldn't do anything she was not comfortable with. Then I got home and read the responses that suggested the teacher's behavior really needed to be changed immediately for the sake of all the students, and the question of grooming behavior. This clearly puts a different light on things which hadn't occurred to me.

 

I'm going to spend the weekend having a few conversations about this with dd. I don't want to push too hard, but I will bring up the concerns that have been expressed here. I am certain based on what she has already said that she will understand these concerns. We'll be talking over how to proceed.

[DawnM]

Go out for lunch??? Have a celebration??? What's that?

 

Working in IT with people from all over the US and internationally, time zones are an issue so no one has the same lunch period so no one goes to lunch. Dh and his colleagues don't eat during the day because of it.

 

Son in law's day is carefully controlled for security reasons. He eats alone at his desk. Human contact is not a priority with his employer.

 

But I know a lot of people who do not share at work and gave up social media because management surfs the net to see what their employees are up to and one does not want to slip and make a comment about work, cop to having a medical or family problem, or anything else. Fire at will state on the heals of a major recession/depression equals no friendly times at work.

My husband works with people from all over the world as well. He is in international tax.

 

And he is not allowed to have any social media accounts.

 

But they are social when at the office.

[Murphy101]

I've always told my girls they never have to share anything personal unless they are totally comfortable with it, and if it concerns a family situation, they need to talk to me or their dad first. When my dad was sick before he passed away, there were other family issues going on in relation to his illness which created another whole layer of grief. There is absolutely no way I would want my girls talking about those issues in a class. This is an issue I've come across with church youth groups and retreats; they get very personal at times and there is a lot of pressure to share very personal stories. I got into a rather heated argument with one youth minister over the subject.

Yikes. I know exactly what you mean and it's a huge reason my kids aren't allowed in youth groups. Because of the junk I saw growing up and hear from other parents about their kids. No thanks to that mess. I don't allow that either and it means I butt heads with staff sometimes. Apparently I've developed a bit of rep for not allowing it. Those who have known me for years though don't really argue about it. It's those who don't who think I'm wrong for not being very "open" and encouraging my kids to be "open". Nope. That's bull. We're Catholic dang it. If my kids need to divulge something deeply personal and emotional - they have parents and a priest. Everyone else needs to back off and mind their own business and keep their amateur pop psychology to themselves thank you very much.

[Murphy101]

I don't understand this at all. She's 14 and that's a confusing and frustrating time bc they aren't really sure how to handle the really adulty things but they are very sure they don't want to screw it up and be humiliated for life among their peers.

 

I personally think it's unreasonable to expect her to handle this level of adulting on her own and would tell her that while I understand why she feels the way she does and will do my best to not humiliate her or make things difficult for her - we have an obligation to do the right thing even when it makes us scared and nervous. Because if we don't, then we are letting fear perpetuate the problem. When the class is over is too late. The damage is done and a complaint is going to be harder to get taken serious bc "well you never said anything at the time so it couldn't have been that bad" will be used to excuse the behavior. And it's difficult to correct retroactively.

 

I would send something to TPTB now. I'm really not a fan of anonymous usually, but I would do that before doing nothing.

 

And I would encourage her to keep records of the assignments and any correspondence or class situations. Maybe a private journal of events when she gets home each day.

 

Maybe all that happens is someone clues him and he changes. But this screams red flags to me.

[Harriet Vane]

On the subject of anonymous letters--

 

Often they do not stay anonymous, and in such cases your credibility on all things forevermore is shot.

 

And since they are anonymous, they lose credibility.

 

It's a difficult situation, yes. But an anonymous letter is not likely to be received well, and it could vastly increase the drama.

 

Own this. Walk in with confidence and have the difficult conversations. It requires diplomacy and skill and gentleness with persistence. But it's important to walk forward. 

 

Maybe the guy is clueless--in which case he needs help. Maybe he is a drama vampire who likes feeding on other people's emotions. Maybe he is a predator. Who knows? But the longer he does this with no understanding of the potential consequences or the abuse of power, the more justified he is going to feel in continuing.

 

[Innisfree]

Okay, I'm listening and thinking here.

 

I'm going to try to get copies of the various assignments. And, as stated, we'll be talking over the weekend.

[QueenCat]

Dh's company has gone the other way. They don't encourage fraternization just work work work. Son in law the same. He knows virtually nothing about his coworkers and share nothing personal at work. Some of them did not even know he was a new father until grandbaby was a month old and they witnessed the team manager giving a baby gift.

 

Very private. But that could be because they both work in jobs requiring a fairly high level of security clearance so commaraderie may be discouraged by upper management.

 

Dh has held various levels of clearances, always in the defense industry. Getting to know his co-workers, his boss, or those who worked for him was encouraged, regardless of clearance type. I can't imagine how stifling life would be without it, since he spends so much time with his co-workers. He eats lunch almost daily with either his boss or the folks that report to him. Doesn't really have "equals"..... They go out for dinner every few weeks (spouses welcome, sometimes I go, sometimes I don't, just depends on life). Christmas parties, cookouts, etc, encouraged...

[StephanieZ]

There are so many profound things that would be completely unsafe and unwise to share in that setting! What about the kid who has been victimized by an abusive parent? And still LIVE WITH that parent? And the ones who have been raped? Or whose parent or sibling is in jail? Those sorts of things are not wise to share widely. 

 

I would talk to the teacher and a guidance counselor at the school, to start with. If that didn't solve the problem, I'd escalate to the principal. Even though YOUR child has "normal" grief issues, plenty of kids have deep, private grief that is dangerous and/or damaging to share in that setting. 

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by cathey

[abcmommy]

1. I do think children should be encouraged to think about and process these sorts of things in writing and public education has a role in encouraging this.

2. I dont think anyone should ever be compelled to share something private or painful with a classroom of peers or a teacher, where they may or may not be safe.

3. I do not necessarily believe this is grooming or predatory behavior in and of itself.  More likely the teacher has not thought this through.

4. this would be an excellent JOURNAL assignment but not ok for a graded assignment

 

and now with some idealism and serious concern for what we have become as a society:

 

5. at the same time, if we refuse to allow ourselves/ kids to trust and share personal experiences with the teachers and peers we do a major disservice in terms of our community.  Makes me think of a quote I just read: 

 

 

When a community loses its memory, its members no longer know one another. How can they know one another if they have forgotten or have never learned one another’s stories? If they do not know one another’s stories, how can they know whether or not to trust one another? People who do not trust one another do not help one another, and moreover they fear one another. And this is our predicament now…(for) most of us no longer talk with each other, much less tell each other stories. We tell our stories now mostly to doctors or lawyers or psychiatrists or insurance adjusters or the police, not to our neighbors…

 

- Wendell Berry, essayist What Are People For? 

 

 

 

[Epicurean]

I just re-read what I wrote and realized it might sound like I'm minimizing the OP's daughter's experiences. Please accept my apologies if it came across that way. I shouldn't have said "real" trauma. I just meant a different kind of trauma, the kind of psychological damage that makes victims of abuse particularly vulnerable in a class setting like this.

[HRAAB]

Yikes. I know exactly what you mean and it's a huge reason my kids aren't allowed in youth groups. Because of the junk I saw growing up and hear from other parents about their kids. No thanks to that mess. I don't allow that either and it means I butt heads with staff sometimes. Apparently I've developed a bit of rep for not allowing it. Those who have known me for years though don't really argue about it. It's those who don't who think I'm wrong for not being very "open" and encouraging my kids to be "open". Nope. That's bull. We're Catholic dang it. If my kids need to divulge something deeply personal and emotional - they have parents and a priest. Everyone else needs to back off and mind their own business and keep their amateur pop psychology to themselves thank you very much.

 

The one time I really blew up was when 'full participation is expected from candidates for Confirmation' was thrown in my face.  No, my girls do not need to sit in a circle and spill their guts in front of other kids when they're 15 years old in order to be confirmed.  What total crap.  What about actually catechizing them?  Forget that.  Gads! Still makes my blood boil.

[LucyStoner]

I was one of the kids with too much trauma to be able to answer crap like this. "Write down the worst thing that ever happened to you." Um, yeah, no. I used all such assignments as "creative writing" assignments.

[Innisfree]

I just re-read what I wrote and realized it might sound like I'm minimizing the OP's daughter's experiences. Please accept my apologies if it came across that way. I shouldn't have said "real" trauma. I just meant a different kind of trauma, the kind of psychological damage that makes victims of abuse particularly vulnerable in a class setting like this.

 

No, please don't worry about that. I didn't read that as minimizing, but rather as a very valuable insight. I'm so sorry you experienced that sort of trauma.

[Valley Girl]

1. I do think children should be encouraged to think about and process these sorts of things in writing and public education has a role in encouraging this.

2. I dont think anyone should ever be compelled to share something private or painful with a classroom of peers or a teacher, where they may or may not be safe.

3. I do not necessarily believe this is grooming or predatory behavior in and of itself.  More likely the teacher has not thought this through.

4. this would be an excellent JOURNAL assignment but not ok for a graded assignment

 

and now with some idealism and serious concern for what we have become as a society:

 

5. at the same time, if we refuse to allow ourselves/ kids to trust and share personal experiences with the teachers and peers we do a major disservice in terms of our community.  Makes me think of a quote I just read: 

 

I think I understand what you're saying in #5 and with the quote. The problem is, though, that what is being done in this particular class isn't what I would call sharing. Sharing is voluntary. Sharing of deeply personal feelings, etc. comes AFTER trust and a sense of emotional safety has been established. People don't feel trust just because they've all been assigned the same 4th period health class. I'm not saying your point isn't valid, just that I think it's hard to fit it to this situation. Might be an interesting discussion though.

[Murphy101]

1. I do think children should be encouraged to think about and process these sorts of things in writing and public education has a role in encouraging this.

2. I dont think anyone should ever be compelled to share something private or painful with a classroom of peers or a teacher, where they may or may not be safe.

3. I do not necessarily believe this is grooming or predatory behavior in and of itself. More likely the teacher has not thought this through.

4. this would be an excellent JOURNAL assignment but not ok for a graded assignment

 

and now with some idealism and serious concern for what we have become as a society:

 

5. at the same time, if we refuse to allow ourselves/ kids to trust and share personal experiences with the teachers and peers we do a major disservice in terms of our community. Makes me think of a quote I just read:

Wrt #5

 

Balderdash.

 

Society is perfectly capable of developing community and history and generational knowledge without demanding that minors or employees or anyone else engage in pseudo group therapy for the consumption of dramatist.

 

No one in this thread is saying they would punish their kid for confiding of their own choice to a teacher or friend a struggle they have had or are dealing with. But these experiences and emotions have always been deeply private and usually not shared unless someone feels very very comfortable and *already has a deeper connection* to their confidante. It is not something one can mandate or grade or demand of someone else.

[abcmommy]

Wrt #5

 

Balderdash.

 

Society is perfectly capable of developing community and history and generational knowledge without demanding that minors or employees or anyone else engage in pseudo group therapy for the consumption of dramatist.

 

No one in this thread is saying they would punish their kid for confiding of their own choice to a teacher or friend a struggle they have had or are dealing with. But these experiences and emotions have always been deeply private and usually not shared unless someone feels very very comfortable and *already has a deeper connection* to their confidante. It is not something one can mandate or grade or demand of someone else.

now martha, that's a bit of a strong reaction all being equal.  I do agree 100% that no one should be forced to parade their skeletons in front of a potentially hostile crowd.  AND that confidences should be shared as the confider decides, not on a school lesson schedule.

 

Balderdash indeed, my dear, to insist that people share private info with a class full of 14 yo children who often have the judgement of turnips and the compassion of potatoes.  <3  

[FaithManor]

Dh has held various levels of clearances, always in the defense industry. Getting to know his co-workers, his boss, or those who worked for him was encouraged, regardless of clearance type. I can't imagine how stifling life would be without it, since he spends so much time with his co-workers. He eats lunch almost daily with either his boss or the folks that report to him. Doesn't really have "equals"..... They go out for dinner every few weeks (spouses welcome, sometimes I go, sometimes I don't, just depends on life). Christmas parties, cookouts, etc, encouraged...

He has none of that.

[Pen]

 

 

I talked with dd after picking her up this afternoon, and offered to send an anonymous letter to the teacher and the principal. She seems to like the idea of doing that after the class is over at the end of this semester, and she agrees that he clearly needs some counseling of his own.

 

She still is not willing to do anything right now, though. She says he's the sort of teacher who is trying to be friendly with his students, bumping fists with them and being chummy. She is quite certain that he would bring up the receipt of a letter in class and press to know who sent it, and she'd feel on the spot and uncomfortable. 

 

When I met him briefly at orientation he just seemed very eager and earnest. I don't think he's straight out of college, but probably under thirty.

 

I told her on the way home that I wouldn't do anything she was not comfortable with. Then I got home and read the responses that suggested the teacher's behavior really needed to be changed immediately for the sake of all the students, and the question of grooming behavior. This clearly puts a different light on things which hadn't occurred to me.

 

I'm going to spend the weekend having a few conversations about this with dd. I don't want to push too hard, but I will bring up the concerns that have been expressed here. I am certain based on what she has already said that she will understand these concerns. We'll be talking over how to proceed. 

 

 

 

I'm getting a mixed messages sense here. On the one hand the sense that he is a "nice" guy just trying to be buddies with the kids and so on.  

 

On the other hand the sense of someone who would act punitively if an issue with him were brought up does not seem like a truly "nice" guy.  I forget where, but one of the early posts seemed to indicate that as a reason not to go to him directly and why the idea of anonymous letters came up, I think, because he seemed to be the sort of teacher who would not deal well with something brought up to him and might make dd's life worse for it.

 

If he is really a nice guy, then you and your daughter should meet with him privately and explain that what he is doing is too intrusive and he should appreciate that and not be punitive to her.

 

If he is the punitive type, then he is not a nice guy, and in that case does not deserve to be treated like just a nice guy.

 

Perhaps to go to give him the benefit of the doubt and talk with him privately as a start, then to raise it to principal or district level if he turns out to not be a nice guy who is just a bit overeager and actually meaning well.

 

The classroom should be a "safe" place. If it is not emotionally safe currently, and if raising that would make it worse, then something is wrong. If he is merely very eager and earnest then raising the issue with him privately should be fine.  Perhaps raising the issue with him may lead to him showing what he really is, nice and accidentally off base, or bad news.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Pen

[Pen]

Mostly a vent, I guess, but glad to hear any ideas...

 

Dd, age 14, is a 9th grader in her first public school since we pulled her out years ago. Most things are going pretty well, but she's already fed up with her health teacher.

 

They've been talking about stress and grief, and the guy wants the kids to give personal information in class discussions and on written assignments.

 

Now, dd has experienced about as much stress as any kid who is not in an abusive situation. She has a younger sister with autism whose behavior has sometimes been over-the-top in a whole host of ways. She has watched her grandmother's decline through dementia, hospice and death, and a similar progression minus the dementia for her grandfather. The kid knows stress and grief. We have utilized counseling.

 

This teacher is asking for personal examples of stress experienced, a "loss line" of grief experiences, and examples of how kids have responded to grief. Dd doesn't care to discuss any of it, but there is a participation grade, and written assignments exploring personal situations.

 

She's entirely new in this environment; most of the kids were in middle school together, but she has no friends there, though there are neighborhood kids she had bad experiences with in elementary school. Even if she were among people she considered friends, a lot of this information is just private. She has neighbors in her class who have younger siblings. If she shared information about her sister's autism, that knowledge would very quickly be public among younger dd's friends. But the teacher's questions are constantly putting her in the position of awkwardly withholding this information.

 

And talking about grief is just very personal, and lots of people prefer not to discuss it.

 

So why the heck don't teachers understand that lots of their students may have issues like these? Why can't they say, " these are some ways people may respond to stress or grief. *Think* about which ways you have responded, and if it's a concern, here's what you can do." Why on earth do they demand kids share this stuff?

 

I know she or I could contact the teacher and ask him to back off. I've offered, she doesn't want me to because she's seen him make some ham handed responses and she's afraid he'd end up calling more attention to her. Without talking to him, there's not much that can be done. So, mostly just a vent here.

 

But, seriously: what are teachers like this thinking? I guess I'd appreciate hearing the other side. I'm all for connecting kids with appropriate help, just not putting pressure on kids to share private information.

 

 

 

 

Rereading this I see that it is a fear your dd has that may or may not be justified.

 

I would strongly suggest that you and your daughter make a joint appointment to talk to the teacher ASAP, and include the fear about the ham handed responses he might make that would call more attention to her as part of what is discussed.  Do not give a lot of personal info for him to use against her, so much as tell him she is not okay with having to talk/write about personal stuff in the class circumstances and that it is a boundary violation, which, if he does not change it, or if he causes her further distress due to the discussion with him, your next stop will be the principal or school board.  Possibly in a discussion with him it will turn out that he actually IS a nice guy, and that no further step up the ladder will be needed.

[Soror]

It just makes me so sad that teachers could be so completely ignorant and insensitive. As Laurie mentioned above this kind of discussion should be left to professionals in a session or counselling group, a school classroom is so far beyond that it is absolutely asinine. Some people have had more trauma than others, some of us are more private, some of us are just more sensitive, some of us have good reason not to share, assigning grades to this type of assignment is just beyond my understanding. Demonstrating an understanding of grief and how it affects the body would be appropriate, personalizing it, not in a million years. Even if she was just turning it into him as a teacher, he is NOT a counselor so it is none of his damn business if she doesn't feel like sharing with him. He is either ignorant or overstepping his bounds, perhaps both.

[Murphy101]

This isn't fair and I know it, but experience with certain types of people has made me unfairly suspicious and protective.

 

I would not approach him privately. I would want a meeting with him AND the principal or I would go direct to the principal. Just in case he is not really a misguided nice guy, I'd be hesitant to create yet another he said/she said event.

[kiwik]

Eh, I guess I don't see it as that big of a deal.

Even if it isn't a big deal it should be the student's choice. No one should be able to force you to share your personal feelings.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Teachers were doing this in my school more than twenty years ago. Charles Sykes' book, "Dumbing Us Down" has two chapters on pseudo psychology in the classroom, and he wrote the book in the nineties. I'm surprised at all the posters saying the teacher should know better, etc. when this is frequently what school is like, and has been for a long time.

 

I was a traumatized and neglected teen. I was extremely sensitive to such assignments, and used many strategies to avoid them including some mentioned in this thread. I'd "forget" to write the essay, make stuff up, or skip out of school. What I wouldn't do is tell anybody anything; I had my coping strategies and transparency wasn't one of them.

[kiwik]

I agree that in the general workplace people aren't required to share confidences. I'm thinking of those awful departmental "team-building" programs where failure to participate can reflect negatively on employees. Raising issues about activities that crossed personal privacy boundaries was NOT viewed favorably. Of course, my experience with that sort of thing was nearly two decades ago. I hope it's different now.

I managed to avoid the them but what I saw gave me the creeps. Oh and why on earth do you need to have that degree of trust for the person who sits at the next desk. I only want to know they can be trusted to do their job.

[Valley Girl]

I managed to avoid the them but what I saw gave me the creeps. Oh and why on earth do you need to have that degree of trust for the person who sits at the next desk. I only want to know they can be trusted to do their job.

 

Exactly! Get me the information I need on time. I'll get you the required work product by your deadline. Information's arriving in dribs and drabs? OK, let's put our heads together and figure out how to get this project done despite the roadblock. There! Teamwork and cooperation in action. We don't have to hold hands and share confidences to do that.

[fairfarmhand]

I'm getting a mixed messages sense here. On the one hand the sense that he is a "nice" guy just trying to be buddies with the kids and so on.  

 

On the other hand the sense of someone who would act punitively if an issue with him were brought up does not seem like a truly "nice" guy.  I forget where, but one of the early posts seemed to indicate that as a reason not to go to him directly and why the idea of anonymous letters came up, I think, because he seemed to be the sort of teacher who would not deal well with something brought up to him and might make dd's life worse for it.

 

If he is really a nice guy, then you and your daughter should meet with him privately and explain that what he is doing is too intrusive and he should appreciate that and not be punitive to her.

 

If he is the punitive type, then he is not a nice guy, and in that case does not deserve to be treated like just a nice guy.

 

Perhaps to go to give him the benefit of the doubt and talk with him privately as a start, then to raise it to principal or district level if he turns out to not be a nice guy who is just a bit overeager and actually meaning well.

 

The classroom should be a "safe" place. If it is not emotionally safe currently, and if raising that would make it worse, then something is wrong. If he is merely very eager and earnest then raising the issue with him privately should be fine.  Perhaps raising the issue with him may lead to him showing what he really is, nice and accidentally off base, or bad news.

 

I read his behavior as immature. And immature people in positions of power can make snide remarks, and act like buttheads when they are called out for their stupidity.

 

[Daria]

The "loss line" assignment sounds weird, but other than that, I guess I'd wonder if whoever designed the unit was expecting to create a classroom climate where kids talked about extreme stress, or simply about whatever is stressing them out in the here and now. 

 

At the school where I teach, the freshman health class spends time on stress management. They put the lessons in the freshman curriculum because the transition to high school is stressful for many kids.  They ask the kids for examples of stress, and the kids overwhelmingly talk about the stress of transitioning to high school.  I have students in my class who have lost parents, experienced multiple heart and brain surgeries, and dealt with bullying.  I teach students with significant disabilities, and that adds a layer of stress onto many interactions.   But when they are asked in health class about stress they, and their nondisabled peers  mostly talk about having too much homework, or the test that's the next day, or wanting to ask a boy to a dance and wondering if he'll say no.  Even kids who are intensely private can come up with something to contribute, they just stick to these kinds of universal topics.  Then they try stress relief strategies like coloring pages, and exercise, and talking to a loved one.  

 

Instead of encouraging her to lie, I'd encourage her to find experiences that are real, but that she's comfortable sharing about.  Talking about her sister?  No, that's private.  Talking about how she feels when her math teacher and history teacher put tests on the same day?  That might feel OK to her.  Talking about the grief she felt when her grandma passed?  That might not feel right.  But talking about a time she felt sad because she tried out for a part she didn't get, or because a friend moved away, might be an option. 

 

One thing I'd also do is make sure she knows that other girls are likely self censoring.  It's easy for a 14 year old to miss that fact and think that she's the only one who has experienced loss, because no one else brings it up, even if she herself is not bringing it up either.  

[Innisfree]

The "loss line" assignment sounds weird, but other than that, I guess I'd wonder if whoever designed the unit was expecting to create a classroom climate where kids talked about extreme stress, or simply about whatever is stressing them out in the here and now.

 

At the school where I teach, the freshman health class spends time on stress management. They put the lessons in the freshman curriculum because the transition to high school is stressful for many kids. They ask the kids for examples of stress, and the kids overwhelmingly talk about the stress of transitioning to high school. I have students in my class who have lost parents, experienced multiple heart and brain surgeries, and dealt with bullying. I teach students with significant disabilities, and that adds a layer of stress onto many interactions. But when they are asked in health class about stress they, and their nondisabled peers mostly talk about having too much homework, or the test that's the next day, or wanting to ask a boy to a dance and wondering if he'll say no. Even kids who are intensely private can come up with something to contribute, they just stick to these kinds of universal topics. Then they try stress relief strategies like coloring pages, and exercise, and talking to a loved one.

 

Instead of encouraging her to lie, I'd encourage her to find experiences that are real, but that she's comfortable sharing about. Talking about her sister? No, that's private. Talking about how she feels when her math teacher and history teacher put tests on the same day? That might feel OK to her. Talking about the grief she felt when her grandma passed? That might not feel right. But talking about a time she felt sad because she tried out for a part she didn't get, or because a friend moved away, might be an option.

 

One thing I'd also do is make sure she knows that other girls are likely self censoring. It's easy for a 14 year old to miss that fact and think that she's the only one who has experienced loss, because no one else brings it up, even if she herself is not bringing it up either.

I'm sure whoever designed the unit has the very best intentions. Actually, I'm pretty sure this teacher does too.

 

From dd's description he does not sound punitive or intentionally inappropriate in any way. He just sounds young, eager, inexperienced and therefore a bit insensitive and oblivious.

 

He has apparently been very open about losses he has experienced, which sound like they are few and relatively recent. That's why, when I posted, I intended my tone to be more of "Gosh, why don't these teachers think things through?" rather than "I think this guy is a danger." That possibility hadn't crossed my mind, and I'm fairly sure he hasn't realized that's how his style could be perceived.

 

He has unquestionably pushed the discussion farther than he should. That has become clearly apparent. The "loss line," with the personal details he wanted the kids to include, does seem to be the most egregious violation. There are a few other details which have come out as well.

 

I think you're right that most of the kids are self-censoring. I just don't think he should be asking questions which require that. Make no mistake, he is pushing things to the point that students would have to lie by omission at least in order to avoid talking about significant grief and trauma. Stress is a great topic for freshmen, I'd completely agree. But he has added to it this year.

 

I think he could turn this situation around just by explicitly saying that no one needs to share more than they wish, and perhaps offering the options of fictional or hypothetical situations. Instead, he has been explicitly saying that students need to answer questions with a variety of personal details.

 

Anyway, we've had a good talk about boundaries this morning, and the fact that yes, kids can enforce them, even with teachers. I think I'll be heading in for a chat with the teacher and counselor next week.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Innisfree

[Daria]

I think you're right that most of the kids are self-censoring. I just don't think he should be asking questions which require that. Make no mistake, he is pushing things to the point that students would have to lie by omission at least in order to avoid talking about significant grief and trauma. Stress is a great topic for freshmen, I'd completely agree. But he has added to it this year.

 

 

Do you mean that he's saying things like "Tell me about the most stress you've experienced." as opposed to "Tell me about a time when you felt stress."  

 

The latter is how our teachers phrase it, and so kids self-censor or choose carefully, but they aren't lying, they're just choosing what to share.  

[TechWife]

Do you mean that he's saying things like "Tell me about the most stress you've experienced." as opposed to "Tell me about a time when you felt stress."  

 

The latter is how our teachers phrase it, and so kids self-censor or choose carefully, but they aren't lying, they're just choosing what to share.  

 

Are they allowed to share absolutely nothing? That is what should be expected, absolutely nothing. Health class is not psychotherapy. 

[Pen]

Do you mean that he's saying things like "Tell me about the most stress you've experienced." as opposed to "Tell me about a time when you felt stress."  

 

The latter is how our teachers phrase it, and so kids self-censor or choose carefully, but they aren't lying, they're just choosing what to share.  

 

 

I may have misunderstood, but it had sounded to me like he was asking for a "loss line" of *all* loss and stressors experienced along with personal details about them.  

 

While this can be very important to health since number of significant stressors correlates with illness and other adverse results, and while some kids might get some relief from such an exercise, it seemed unreasonably like an invasion of privacy, failure to respect student emotional boundaries, an unreasonable stressor itself for students to whom (like OP's dd) it would be stressful and not relieving or perhaps neutral, and also a violation of free expression...in so far as a part of free expression is the right *not* to express something without penalty for choosing to remain silent..  I don't think even group therapy sessions demand that everyone spill their guts, but rather give an *opportunity* to share in a safe environment.  In this case the environment does not seem safe, and the demand for expression makes it increasingly unsafe in a downward sort of spiral. It seems to me.

[38carrots]

I get that many of you disagree with me, that is fine. 

 

But honestly, you have to do one of two things.....fight it or do the work requested.

 

Which is more important to you?

 

Fighting insensitivity and ignorance is of great importance.

[Daria]

I may have misunderstood, but it had sounded to me like he was asking for a "loss line" of *all* loss and stressors experienced along with personal details about them.  

 

While this can be very important to health since number of significant stressors correlates with illness and other adverse results, and while some kids might get some relief from such an exercise, it seemed unreasonably like an invasion of privacy, failure to respect student emotional boundaries, an unreasonable stressor itself for students to whom (like OP's dd) it would be stressful and not relieving or perhaps neutral, and also a violation of free expression...in so far as a part of free expression is the right *not* to express something without penalty for choosing to remain silent..  I don't think even group therapy sessions demand that everyone spill their guts, but rather give an *opportunity* to share in a safe environment.  In this case the environment does not seem safe, and the demand for expression makes it increasingly unsafe in a downward sort of spiral. It seems to me.

 

I agree that it sounds like the teacher in the OP is asking kids to share all, and that that's inappropriate.  The original post talks about "teachers" and so I thought it was relevant to point out that many teachers are able to teach this content without requiring kids to share everything.  

[magnificent_baby]

No. Just no. 

 

I usually pick my battles with the school, and this is a battle I'd fight.

 

This crosses a boundary and I'd go straight to the principal, then higher if I didn't get anywhere. 

 

Discussing stress? Sure. Grief? No, not appropriate in that setting. 

 

ETA: It wouldn't be a big deal to my DD; but it would be a huge and traumatic assignment to 2 kids I can think of who lost their dads in horrible, traumatic events. One who witnessed it. Both in very heavy duty therapy. Again, I stand by my opinion it is so not appropriate. 

Edited September 18, 2016 by magnificent_baby

[Bluegoat]

Myadvice to a kid in a class like that would be pick something to write about that fits what the teacher is looking for, but isn't too personal.  So not things like grandmothers death, but something a little more mundane - s adifficult test, an awkward social situation, whatever.

 

It's not a bad skill to be able to share something without getting too personal.

 

I don't know that I would approach the teacher especially but if there was some sort of parental visitation I would likely mention it.  It strikes me more as someone with a pretty good idea who just didn't consider that some kids might feel they are required to share things they aren't comfortable with.

[Bluegoat]

Dh has held various levels of clearances, always in the defense industry. Getting to know his co-workers, his boss, or those who worked for him was encouraged, regardless of clearance type. I can't imagine how stifling life would be without it, since he spends so much time with his co-workers. He eats lunch almost daily with either his boss or the folks that report to him. Doesn't really have "equals"..... They go out for dinner every few weeks (spouses welcome, sometimes I go, sometimes I don't, just depends on life). Christmas parties, cookouts, etc, encouraged...

 

Yeah - I've worked in jobs with security clearence issues, there was no discouaging getting to know people.  I don't really see how that would be all that helpful.

[Bluegoat]

I'm sure whoever designed the unit has the very best intentions. Actually, I'm pretty sure this teacher does too.

 

From dd's description he does not sound punitive or intentionally inappropriate in any way. He just sounds young, eager, inexperienced and therefore a bit insensitive and oblivious.

 

He has apparently been very open about losses he has experienced, which sound like they are few and relatively recent. That's why, when I posted, I intended my tone to be more of "Gosh, why don't these teachers think things through?" rather than "I think this guy is a danger." That possibility hadn't crossed my mind, and I'm fairly sure he hasn't realized that's how his style could be perceived.

 

He has unquestionably pushed the discussion farther than he should. That has become clearly apparent. The "loss line," with the personal details he wanted the kids to include, does seem to be the most egregious violation. There are a few other details which have come out as well.

 

I think you're right that most of the kids are self-censoring. I just don't think he should be asking questions which require that. Make no mistake, he is pushing things to the point that students would have to lie by omission at least in order to avoid talking about significant grief and trauma. Stress is a great topic for freshmen, I'd completely agree. But he has added to it this year.

 

I think he could turn this situation around just by explicitly saying that no one needs to share more than they wish, and perhaps offering the options of fictional or hypothetical situations. Instead, he has been explicitly saying that students need to answer questions with a variety of personal details.

 

Anyway, we've had a good talk about boundaries this morning, and the fact that yes, kids can enforce them, even with teachers. I think I'll be heading in for a chat with the teacher and counselor next week.

 

I don't know.  I think we all do that, all the time.  Figuring out how to do it while not being inauthentic is probably one of the stressful things about that age.

[TechWife]

 

It's not a bad skill to be able to share something without getting too personal.

 

 

 

It's not a bad skill, but I think the skill of knowing when and how to say "mind your own business" is even more important. Just because someone asks something doesn't mean they need an answer.  

[Daria]

I agree that if he turns out to be a nice guy, then helping him understand how he is damaging these young kids is good.

 

But, if he's a creep, I don't think anyone should be explaining to him ways to look less creepy.  

 

I don't know.  I think that telling a creepy that they are creepy and you're watching is a good way to dissuade them from acting.  

[Innisfree]

Do you mean that he's saying things like "Tell me about the most stress you've experienced." as opposed to "Tell me about a time when you felt stress."

 

The latter is how our teachers phrase it, and so kids self-censor or choose carefully, but they aren't lying, they're just choosing what to share.

I'm sorry, things came up and I didn't get back to this right away.

 

My understanding is that he told the students to include all grief experiences. He wanted them to identify the various "losses", rate them on a numerical scale, discuss how they felt, and choose one experience to discuss with reference to their coping techniques. My dd had turned the paper in before she told me about it. I'm waiting until it is returned so I can take a look at it before I take this any farther.

[FaithManor]

ABCmommy gets the post of the day: Balderdash indeed, my dear, to insist that people share private info with a class full of 14 yo children who often have the judgement of turnips and the compassion of potatoes. <3

Yes this wins the most quotable quote for the month!

[Daria]

I'm sorry, things came up and I didn't get back to this right away.

 

My understanding is that he told the students to include all grief experiences. He wanted them to identify the various "losses", rate them on a numerical scale, discuss how they felt, and choose one experience to discuss with reference to their coping techniques. My dd had turned the paper in before she told me about it. I'm waiting until it is returned so I can take a look at it before I take this any farther.

 

Yeah, that's really bad.

[Innisfree]

I agree that it sounds like the teacher in the OP is asking kids to share all, and that that's inappropriate. The original post talks about "teachers" and so I thought it was relevant to point out that many teachers are able to teach this content without requiring kids to share everything.

 

I do agree with this. Lots of teachers handle this sort of discussion with great sensitivity, I'm sure. I do believe the primary issue here may be inexperience.