CC the elephant in the room--UPDATE Post #49

[cintinative]

*deleted*

 

Update Post 49

Edited September 20, 2016 by cintinative

[Butter]

While you are required to accept he is repentant, are you required to be buddy buddy with him?

[cintinative]

While you are required to accept he is repentant, are you required to be buddy buddy with him?

 

No, not at all.  I have never been that anyway due to being my friend's confidant and being well aware of his behavior.

[FaithManor]

Actually accepting his repentence does not equal trust. You are not called to trust him.

 

Trust is earned and repentence does not equal restored trust. Repentence restores relationship with God. So you do not judge whether or not he has asked God's forgiveness in good faith. But you do exercise discernment.

 

As for abusers, there are many who lacking coping and anger management skills, who are genuinely sorry for what they did after they have done it but then turn around and do it because being repentent also does not equal automatically acquiring the self control to not do it again.

 

Since the incident was not against you or your family, he does not need your forgiveness either. Therefore you can simply look at this logically. It is quite possible to interact with him in a polite, Christian way without putting yourself or family in harm's way if he is indeed unstable.

 

So you accept that he attends your church and you greet him in an appropriate manner without singling him out, and you accept that he may indeed be very sorry about his actions. But you don't leave the door open to be on the receiving end of instability. And since the offense was grievous enough to warrant jail time, he should be being mentored by mature elders who have not been affected personally by his actions as you have since it was someone you were close to who was victimized.

[Butter]

Then I would just kind of co-exist.  He does his thing at church and you do yours.  You don't talk about what he did in his past and just be cordial acquaintances if you happen to directly cross paths.  We are required to forgive everyone (which I think is more for us than them).  We are not required to trust them.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Butter

[importswim]

I think you take the wait and see approach. Be cordial, but you don't have to invite him over for dinner. God can definitely change someone as he refines and sanctifies them to mold them to be more like Christ and fruit is one of the evidences of this. I would watch for the fruit.

 

I think that the way that he approaches YOU may be more telling to his inner transformation. How did he act/react towards you?

[sarasue7272]

"Yet--I am called to accept him if he is truly repentant. "

 

Says who? As a Christian, the bible says I am to forgive others. That is not the same as trust. Trust is earned. I would work on forgiving this man, but would not trust or pretend to trust him.

[Rosie_0801]

I think that the way that he approaches YOU may be more telling to his inner transformation. How did he act/react towards you?

 

How do you figure that?

 

 

 

 

It is easy enough to be polite but distant. The unpleasantness will come when he starts dating someone else you know.

[cintinative]

Actually accepting his repentence does not equal trust. You are not called to trust him.

 

Trust is earned and repentence does not equal restored trust. Repentence restores relationship with God. So you do not judge whether or not he has asked God's forgiveness in good faith. But you do exercise discernment.

 

As for abusers, there are many who lacking coping and anger management skills, who are genuinely sorry for what they did after they have done it but then turn around and do it because being repentent also does not equal automatically acquiring the self control to not do it again.

 

Since the incident was not against you or your family, he does not need your forgiveness either. Therefore you can simply look at this logically. It is quite possible to interact with him in a polite, Christian way without putting yourself or family in harm's way if he is indeed unstable.

 

So you accept that he attends your church and you greet him in an appropriate manner without singling him out, and you accept that he may indeed be very sorry about his actions. But you don't leave the door open to be on the receiving end of instability. And since the offense was grievous enough to warrant jail time, he should be being mentored by mature elders who have not been affected personally by his actions as you have since it was someone you were close to who was victimized.

 

thank you. This was very helpful.  

 

I do think he is being monitored by the elders now (he wasn't previously, but that's a story I can't elaborate on). I cannot be sure what that looks like and so I will need to trust that God will intervene if it is not sufficient.  

 

I think a lot of my feeling unsettled about this comes down to not trusting that God will protect my church family. I need to repent of that and pray for others who do not know his history to have discernment in their friendship with him.  I could use prayer that I would repent and trust God in this way. 

[Scarlett]

I can tell you how it worked for me with my best friends now xh. He was such a cheater...and it went on so long....I lost all respect for him even though I once loved him like a brother. There were years when I wanted to kill him....in fact h followed me outside at a service once to plead for me to be like I once was....I said well I no longer want to smash your face in with a base ball bat but I don't think it will ever be like it was.

So now...we live far apart and I rarely see him, but when I do we can share a hug and I don't wish ill upon him. I just takes time.

[cintinative]

 

It is easy enough to be polite but distant. The unpleasantness will come when he starts dating someone else you know.

 

This ties into what I said in a later post about trusting God to take care of my church family.  We have seen him get close with others at church that had no idea what was going on (prior to the jail term) and it was difficult. Ultimately, I need to believe that God will give people discernment even if they never learn his history.  Also I very much need prayer for this aspect. 

[JadeOrchidSong]

It he wishes to serve in the church in some capacity, maybe the background check will let the church know he has criminal past. He may have repented, but it doesn't mean he has shaken off his tendency of being abusive when provoked somehow.

[bolt.]

I'm concerned about your idea that you seem to think it would be the right thing to "trust God to take care of your church family" and that it is wrong (sinful? needs repentance?) in your eyes to not do so.

 

I think this idea is theologically unsound.

 

1. The idea is not found in the Bible anywhere that I know of, and 2. The idea is inconsistent with reality and history: God has no track record of "protecting" his church from the choices sinful people make to hurt others.

 

My point of view is that God has placed the "protection" of his church from such individuals on the hands of his followers within churches. Those followers are given gifts, intuition, help, etc, in order to accomplish the protection -- but they still (being humans!) might or might not rise to every occasion. They do not rise to every occasion, and church-based damage definitely occurs.

 

I don't think simply "trusting God" to do a job that he has given to his people makes sense. As an active participant in the church you should expect to be a part of doing that job and/or observing, or helping in other ways.

 

Being aware that fail able humans might not react to this situation with quite the wisdom they ought to... That's not a sin. Nobody said that's not allowed.

Edited September 5, 2016 by bolt.

[LucyStoner]

You aren't under any obligation to be friends with him.

 

Faith Trust Institute is an organization dedicated to educating faith leaders and communities on appropriate and safe responses to DV and sexual abuse. You might be interested in reading their website or sharing it with the leadership of your church.

 

http://www.faithtrustinstitute.org/resources/articles/domestic-violence

[Laurie4b]

I am curious as to why, you, as someone privy to the truth, would not be one of the watch people? 

 

Churches have a really poor track record at dealing with abusers because abusing men are often charming to others and know how to play them. Manipulation is a core part of abuse. VIctims are manipulated, but so are by-standers. Getting manipulated by an abuser can happen  to anyone , but Christians, really wanting to believe in repentance, seem to fall for it even more easily. I've certainly seen otherwise wise elders fooled by a smooth talking abuser, especially if the abuse never crossed into overt physical abuse. 

 

I'm thankful that your friend has moved away because all too often that propensity toward being fooled by surface repentance  results in the victim ending up the "bad guy" because she "won't forgive." All kinds of people mix up forgiveness and reconciliation. 

 

As to whether he's repentant, as a pp mentioned, it is true that is between him and God. For us humans though, we do need to have some way of gauging what we're dealing with and  the scripture talks about the fruit of repentance: walking the walk, not just talking the talk. 

 

Abuse is primarily about self-centeredness and entitlement not anger management (ie it seems a high percentage are narcissistic and/or antisocial personality disorder) Unless he has had treatment by a skilled and competent clinician who deals with abusive men, it's highly unlikely that he's actually changed in a way that would prevent it in the future. 

 

So I would encourage you to think more along the lines of praying for courage to speak up. Know that if and when you do speak up, that if the church leadership has bought into the whitewash of pseudo- repentance, you are  likely to pay a high price for truth-telling and trying to protect other potential victims. Sadly that  scenario plays out again and again as well.  

 

The Wartburg Watch is a website focused especially on abuse in churches. You can peruse and read stories about what happens to the people who speak up.  Another website is https://cryingoutforjustice.com/   That is a site devoted to helping church leaders detect and handle abuse. 

 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Laurie4b

[PrincessMommy]

I don't know what to say but just that I'm in a similar but different situation.

 

The problem that I have experienced after trying to "put up" with it and avoid this person altogether, is that my own personal/spiritual life has suffered greatly.  I'm at the point where I don't want to go to church anymore because this person may be present.   Sadly, my concerns have largely fallen on deaf ears with the powers that be.  Oh, there's definitely people who feel the same way as I do, but none of us are in a position to actually do anything.

 

I have no great advice, just a warning that even just trying to worship alongside a situation like this may prove to be worse than finding another place to worship.    Hugs.  

 

 

 

[PrincessMommy]

I am curious as to why, you, as someone privy to the truth, would not be one of the watch people? 

 

Churches have a really poor track record at dealing with abusers because abusing men are often charming to others and know how to play them. Manipulation is a core part of abuse. VIctims are manipulated, but so are by-standers. Getting manipulated by an abuser can happen  to anyone , but Christians, really wanting to believe in repentance, seem to fall for it even more easily. I've certainly seen otherwise wise elders fooled by a smooth talking abuser, especially if the abuse never crossed into overt physical abuse. 

 

I'm thankful that your friend has moved away because all too often that propensity toward being fooled by surface repentance  results in the victim ending up the "bad guy" because she "won't forgive." All kinds of people mix up forgiveness and reconciliation. 

 

As to whether he's repentant, as a pp mentioned, it is true that is between him and God. For us humans though, we do need to have some way of gauging what we're dealing with and  the scripture talks about the fruit of repentance: walking the walk, not just talking the talk. 

 

Abuse is primarily about self-centeredness and entitlement not anger management (ie it seems a high percentage are narcissistic and/or antisocial personality disorder) Unless he has had treatment by a skilled and competent clinician who deals with abusive men, it's highly unlikely that he's actually changed in a way that would prevent it in the future. 

 

So I would encourage you to think more along the lines of praying for courage to speak up. Know that if and when you do speak up, that if the church leadership has bought into the whitewash of pseudo- repentance, you are  likely to pay a high price for truth-telling and trying to protect other potential victims. Sadly that  scenario plays out again and again as well.  

 

The Wartburg Watch is a website focused especially on abuse in churches. You can peruse and read stories about what happens to the people who speak up.  Another website is https://cryingoutforjustice.com/   That is a site devoted to helping church leaders detect and handle abuse. 

 

This exactly.  Thank you.

[LMD]

We also had a similar situation in our family. The perpetrator put on a big show of repentance and baptism. Some people, dh included, wanted to believe that he had changed. I was skeptical. He did it again and worse and we were done. We avoid them wherever possible and when not possible, cooly cordial.

They knew where we stood before hand, we warned them and gave a lot to help and encourage. In return we were lied to. As far as we are concerned, they are not the same person and I have nothing to say to this new person.

 

We were pressured to not make waves, to forgive and move on. We regretted it. It is sad but I am done with sweeping stuff under the carpet for comfort. If they came to us in genuine understanding of their behaviour and made restitution to the injured parties then we could slowly build a relationship again.

[Lucy the Valiant]

Gently, the leadership of your church *is* in a "tricky" position, one requiring much wisdom. It is true that *some* churches have not handled these situations well in the past, but *some* of them have responded wisely and cautiously (though of course, those situations don't make the evening news).

 

YOU are also a member of this church body; YOUR safety also matters, and the leadership is CHARGED with protecting YOU and the others in that church. Don't just pray that you will accept their wisdom; talk to them. Make sure they understand the gut-feeling you had when you saw him. Ask them specifically what their supervisory plan is and how they expect to carry it out. Pay attention to whether they actually do this or not. Speak privately and humbly to the people who need to know. Ask them to pray WITH you and FOR you. Watch your own ability to worship, as was mentioned upthread. If that becomes an issue, TALK, again, with your leadership team. If there are people in harm's way that may need protection, TELL THAT to the leadership; ASK them how they plan to protect those people. Pray with them.

 

Yes, forgive. Slowly, and wisely. Give yourself time and grace. Yes, watch your church leadership; give them the chance to act wisely. Give yourself the space you need as well. This is not bigger than God or his wisdom.

[cintinative]

 

 

Churches have a really poor track record at dealing with abusers because abusing men are often charming to others and know how to play them. Manipulation is a core part of abuse. VIctims are manipulated, but so are by-standers. Getting manipulated by an abuser can happen  to anyone , but Christians, really wanting to believe in repentance, seem to fall for it even more easily. I've certainly seen otherwise wise elders fooled by a smooth talking abuser, especially if the abuse never crossed into overt physical abuse. 

 

I'm thankful that your friend has moved away because all too often that propensity toward being fooled by surface repentance  results in the victim ending up the "bad guy" because she "won't forgive." All kinds of people mix up forgiveness and reconciliation. 

 

Yes, completely agree. So on point. 

 

Unfortunately my friend was devoted to protecting the secret almost as much as he was--she was unwilling to do anything that might disrupt the fragile foundation they had--until it escalated the second time.  I definitely I am so grateful she moved away so she can be safe and get the help she needs.

 

I think I might have not explained myself well, for fear of revealing too much. Please know that as soon as I saw him I went to the pastor and asked what this was about and ensured he was known by all the elders this time.  I said, " you know person X is in church?" and he said, "Yes, and it's a good thing!" and I said, "It is??"  

 

 

There is a history with this that I cannot get into deeply  but I have tried very hard to convince the pastor (starting well over a year ago) that he needs full accountability. Unfortunately, last fall when it first escalated to potential physical violence, the pastor agreed with my friend/husband's request to not tell the elders (beyond the one that knew).  I was very direct and told him I thought this was unwise.  Also because of the church's situation at the time, the pastor was too busy, and the accountability did not appear to be happening like it should and I was continually pressing in on that and asking what they were doing. Ultimately since this person is not a member there was nothing else my husband and I could do.  

 

Meantime my friend stopped talking to me because I told the pastor (that is another story).  So I had no way of knowing if she was going to any counseling either.  

 

All that to say--I totally agree. Unfortunately the last  year has shown me that sometimes God has to intervene even in the case of leadership to show them that they need to take something seriously. I am sad for them and my friend that it took violence for them to wake up. And I am not totally sure they fully get it yet. 

 

Ultimately there needs to be trust on my part though--I need to believe that God will use their efforts if they are sincere. 

 

I think Lucy Stoner (???) posted a link--I will see about getting that information to my pastor and elders.  

[Bluegoat]

We also had a similar situation in our family. The perpetrator put on a big show of repentance and baptism. Some people, dh included, wanted to believe that he had changed. I was skeptical. He did it again and worse and we were done. We avoid them wherever possible and when not possible, cooly cordial.

They knew where we stood before hand, we warned them and gave a lot to help and encourage. In return we were lied to. As far as we are concerned, they are not the same person and I have nothing to say to this new person.

 

We were pressured to not make waves, to forgive and move on. We regretted it. It is sad but I am done with sweeping stuff under the carpet for comfort. If they came to us in genuine understanding of their behaviour and made restitution to the injured parties then we could slowly build a relationship again.

 

I am really not convinced that this kind of public airing is actually helpful or useful in most of these situations.  It's a lot of pressure for eveyone - not just those who are supposed to accept the changed new person, but I think it is far too much public pressure on someone trying to make a change as well.

[FaithManor]

With the update you posted, to be honest with that much more information about the paetoral response, I would not attend there anymore. I have no patience for taking abuse lightly amd it very much appears that he did.

 

That said, it quite common unfortunately as the long history of misogyny within Christianity has lead to devaluing female experience and not taking abuse seriously. Not all churches, but a lot.

 

I would simply not feel comfortable the leadership is not worried about accountability.

[Terabith]

God is on the side of the oppressed. The church should be there, too. Unless he has apologized, taken responsibility, and gotten counseling, I would not think he has truly repented. That's the bare minimum. He should be supervised at church. People have a right to feel safe.

 

Given the response of the church, I would probably leave.

[Laurie4b]

What you are describing is a system that is not equipped to deal with abuse. And I think that is okay as long as they don't try to. One issue is training. Given how skilled most abusers are at misleading others, I don't think abuse is something a church should handle 100% by themselves without requiring the abuser to participate in counseling specifically for abusers.  (Regular ole counselors, therapists, etc. get fooled on a pretty frequent basis as well.) The best case scenario is cooperation between a specialist and the church. Each can provide something that the other cannot. You mentioned time issues with the pastors, but if I am correct in assuming that the elders are lay people who have fulltime jobs, they won't have the time or expertise, either. 

 

The best Christian site that I have come across is the one I linked upthread. The best books I've read are: 1) Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. That is the classic on understanding the dynamics of abuse. 2) The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is good at helping people recognize emotional abuse. Bancroft's book is secular. Evans book is also secular but I think she has a Christian slant. I think that is a minimum knowledge base for people in ministry. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Laurie4b

[Denisemomof4]

I'm concerned about your idea that you seem to think it would be the right thing to "trust God to take care of your church family" and that it is wrong (sinful? needs repentance?) in your eyes to not do so.

 

I think this idea is theologically unsound.

 

1. The idea is not found in the Bible anywhere that I know of, and 2. The idea is inconsistent with reality and history: God has no track record of "protecting" his church from the choices sinful people make to hurt others.

 

My point of view is that God has placed the "protection" of his church from such individuals on the hands of his followers within churches. Those followers are given gifts, intuition, help, etc, in order to accomplish the protection -- but they still (being humans!) might or might not rise to every occasion. They do not rise to every occasion, and church-based damage definitely occurs.

 

I don't think simply "trusting God" to do a job that he has given to his people makes sense. As an active participant in the church you should expect to be a part of doing that job and/or observing, or helping in other ways.

 

Being aware that fail able humans might not react to this situation with quite the wisdom they ought to... That's not a sin. Nobody said that's not allowed.

This.

 

In the last church I will ever attend, the pastor, his family, the elders and others knew there was a pedophile among us. They knew he was spending time with families and said nothing. Mos of us trusted our guts and our kids are safe. One family did not fare so well. The victim's family felt that putting their child on the witness stand would be too traumatizing so this jerk never went to trial. The only time he served was between the arrest and the parents not moving forward with a trial. These parents thought it was the Christian thing to do and just go ahead and forgive this scum. I call people like this wimps. (And BTW I had a friend who's friend's husband was a pastor, their child was molested, 5hey never pressed charges, they felt they should forgive. SICK!!!)

 

the pedophile from my cgurch went on to molest more boys. All of this should have been stopped. This Christian "turn the other cheek" thing was a sin in these slcases.

 

The pedophile we knew and his brother were followed by the FBI and had been molesting boys for decades. I am glad rhey will never know freedom again. I hope their memories haunt them all day, every day

[Denisemomof4]

Btw, the boy who was molested in our church has had issues with drugs and alcohol ever since and jas been in and out of jail. This is only ONE victim. These low lifes have shatter3d too many lives. I had to forgive for myself, but I do hope one day they get what they deserve, and I am not talking just their life sentences without parole.

 

During their yrials, their mother died. They oftentimes brought their victims to the family lake home.

 

These forgiveness threads make me sick.

 

OP, I am sorry, I don't mean to offend. For you, you simply act polite and keep your distance. Try not yo rehash all this in your head as I obviously do. This has forever scarred me. The police called our family and spebt time interviewing us because of all the pics of my son on his computer. I am sick to my stomach just thinking about this. I forgave for my oeace but I always have something like this come up and stir emotions because I am forever scarred and will never forget. And we are one of the lucky families.

[cintinative]

OP, I am sorry, I don't mean to offend. For you, you simply act polite and keep your distance. Try not yo rehash all this in your head as I obviously do. This has forever scarred me. The police called our family and spebt time interviewing us because of all the pics of my son on his computer. I am sick to my stomach just thinking about this. I forgave for my oeace but I always have something like this come up and stir emotions because I am forever scarred and will never forget. And we are one of the lucky families.

 

It is totally understandable that you feel as you do. I am so sorry that happened to you and to people you cared about. I am sorry that it took so long for justice to be brought.  

 

Speaking for myself, I think my expectation in this case is that they will not trust the husband until over time he has proven his sincerity by attending abuse-centered counseling and submitting to regular accountability (not friendly talks over coffee).  I am still formulating what I would want the elders/pastor to do to have peace this is being handled properly.

Edited September 5, 2016 by cintinative

[Scarlett]

Btw, the boy who was molested in our church has had issues with drugs and alcohol ever since and jas been in and out of jail. This is only ONE victim. These low lifes have shatter3d too many lives. I had to forgive for myself, but I do hope one day they get what they deserve, and I am not talking just their life sentences without parole.

 

During their yrials, their mother died. They oftentimes brought their victims to the family lake home.

 

These forgiveness threads make me sick..

Me too. Forgiveness has to be warranted IMO. Edited September 6, 2016 by Scarlett

[kroe1]

God forgives, not me.

[ktgrok]

Forgiving doesn't = trusting. It doesn't equal putting yourself in danger. It doesn't equal allowing others to be in danger. I see zero reason why you can't warn those who should be warned. 

[Bluegoat]

Forgiving doesn't = trusting. It doesn't equal putting yourself in danger. It doesn't equal allowing others to be in danger. I see zero reason why you can't warn those who should be warned. 

 

 

Yes, there really should be some way the parish deals with, on the one hand keeping people safe, and on the other not airing people's personal struggles in a way that invades their privacy or leads to gossip.

[Little Nyssa]

It is totally understandable that you feel as you do. I am so sorry that happened to you and to people you cared about. I am sorry that it took so long for justice to be brought.

 

Speaking for myself, I think my expectation in this case is that they will not trust the husband until over time he has proven his sincerity by attending abuse-centered counseling and submitting to regular accountability (not friendly talks over coffee). I am still formulating what I would want the elders/pastor to do to have peace this is being handled properly.

It seems like a really difficult situation, and I don't know if I have anything to add as far as advice, but I'm interested in what you say about 'submitting to regular accountability.' What would this actually look like? Thanks!

[Janeway]

Is he asking for a relationship with you?

 

You are not the one who is in the place to forgive him. 

 

He is not suddenly a trustworthy person, just because he showed up at church. He is still an abuser. He might be an abuser who claims to be sorry, but he is an abuser. To be honest, with abusers, they want others to pat them on their backs and tell them they did nothing wrong. He did a lot wrong. You do not need to condone it or enable it. Your children do not need to be around him, your husband, you, your marriage, etc. You are still trusted with the care and keeping of your family. An abuser is a snake. You don't gossip, but you also do not jump in to make friends with someone like that. 

[cintinative]

Is he asking for a relationship with you?

 

You are not the one who is in the place to forgive him. 

 

He is not suddenly a trustworthy person, just because he showed up at church. He is still an abuser. He might be an abuser who claims to be sorry, but he is an abuser. To be honest, with abusers, they want others to pat them on their backs and tell them they did nothing wrong. He did a lot wrong. You do not need to condone it or enable it. Your children do not need to be around him, your husband, you, your marriage, etc. You are still trusted with the care and keeping of your family. An abuser is a snake. You don't gossip, but you also do not jump in to make friends with someone like that. 

 

I responded to this upthread. I have never been friends with him because I have always been aware of the abuse. So the concern is more along the lines of a wolf among sheep in the church and if the leadership will take appropriate steps to make sure he is on a path to repentance (and ask him to leave if he is not).

[cintinative]

It seems like a really difficult situation, and I don't know if I have anything to add as far as advice, but I'm interested in what you say about 'submitting to regular accountability.' What would this actually look like? Thanks!

 

I am no expert on this, but I have been trying to formulate that in my head.  I'm open for input.  I would think at a minimum it would be:

 

*a requirement that he seek regular counseling (at least twice a month) with a counselor who has expertise in abusers and agree that the counselor may communicate with the church regarding his attendance to appointments and overall progress.

*regular meetings with elders of the church which will not be simply fellowship but asking hard questions regarding his current choices and how they reflect repentance for his past ones; current status with respect to particular sin issues (above and beyond the abuse), etc.  In other words, not just a chummy time talking about football.  Real accountability.  The elders would need to see positive change, acknowledgement of wrongdoing (not worldly sorrow, but repentance).

*if the above are not met, disciplinary action would include first a warning, and then if no proven effort within two weeks, removal from the church and a public announcement to the congregation

 

I sincerely doubt all these things will be met, but perhaps I am being too negative.

[Lucy the Valiant]

^ Someone who is truly apologetic and wants to change will submit willingly to those requirements. A leadership board who truly wants to protect their church people (more than their own egos) will submit willingly to those requirements.

 

$.02

 

Best wishes for humble leadership who will be faithful to the roles they are called to fulfill.

[Rosie_0801]

^ Someone who is truly apologetic and wants to change will submit willingly to those requirements.

 

Someone who wishes to fool everyone would too. 

[Incognito]

I don't know what to say but just that I'm in a similar but different situation.

 

The problem that I have experienced after trying to "put up" with it and avoid this person altogether, is that my own personal/spiritual life has suffered greatly.  I'm at the point where I don't want to go to church anymore because this person may be present.   Sadly, my concerns have largely fallen on deaf ears with the powers that be.  Oh, there's definitely people who feel the same way as I do, but none of us are in a position to actually do anything.

 

I have no great advice, just a warning that even just trying to worship alongside a situation like this may prove to be worse than finding another place to worship.    Hugs.  

 

FWIW, I was aware of a situation where someone had done some pretty awful things, but still attended the church.  It was frustrating, but the staff explained that the church is a public space, and anyone who is not breaking the law is allowed to be there.  The staff of the church doesn't really have control or power over those who attend - they only have the authority that people choose to give them.  They can't make anyone do anything.  They can't force anyone to do counselling, or not come anymore.  From what I was told, it is not legal for them to do so.  They can make suggestions and encourage things, but they can't actually "do" anything about situations like this.

[PrincessMommy]

FWIW, I was aware of a situation where someone had done some pretty awful things, but still attended the church.  It was frustrating, but the staff explained that the church is a public space, and anyone who is not breaking the law is allowed to be there.  The staff of the church doesn't really have control or power over those who attend - they only have the authority that people choose to give them.  They can't make anyone do anything.  They can't force anyone to do counselling, or not come anymore.  From what I was told, it is not legal for them to do so.  They can make suggestions and encourage things, but they can't actually "do" anything about situations like this.

 

Yes, exactly.   No one really has any control over who comes through the door.  Not only that, but the very purpose of the Church is to open its doors to sinners (who are hopefully repenting).  Even Christ kept Judas in his midst.   And therein lies the trouble.

 

And, if they attempt to show someone the door,  as it were, can you imagine the back-lash?  Esp. if it's someone who seems repentant, or really nice, or very sorry and humble.    I feel for the OP.  From my own experience I think she is in a lose-lose situation.   My situation is not nearly as black and white (or awful) as hers, so I did fee compelled to "get over it" and put on my big-girl panties . But it has not been easy and I think it's been worse for me than if I'd just left and found another parish.   I realize now that I'm not the bigger person.  :(

Edited September 7, 2016 by PrincessMommy

[Rosie_0801]

   I realize now that I'm not the bigger person.  :(

 

Being the bigger person is only a virtue to a point. After that point, it condones and invites poor treatment. Maybe you're just the right size.

[PrincessMommy]

Being the bigger person is only a virtue to a point. After that point, it condones and invites poor treatment. Maybe you're just the right size.

 

Rosie, that is very sweet of you to say, and I appreciate your vote of confidence.    Time will tell if it's true,  but I fear in this case it is not.   But, I really do appreciate your words as I often feel pretty crappy about the whole situation.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

FWIW, I was aware of a situation where someone had done some pretty awful things, but still attended the church.  It was frustrating, but the staff explained that the church is a public space, and anyone who is not breaking the law is allowed to be there.  The staff of the church doesn't really have control or power over those who attend - they only have the authority that people choose to give them.  They can't make anyone do anything.  They can't force anyone to do counselling, or not come anymore.  From what I was told, it is not legal for them to do so.  They can make suggestions and encourage things, but they can't actually "do" anything about situations like this.

 

Churches can restrict attendance for any reason they choose.

[LMD]

I am really not convinced that this kind of public airing is actually helpful or useful in most of these situations. It's a lot of pressure for eveyone - not just those who are supposed to accept the changed new person, but I think it is far too much public pressure on someone trying to make a change as well.

I would agree. It smacked of show over substance, and it's easier for everyone, including the church leadership, to count it as a win and go on with their lives.

[Little Nyssa]

Yes, exactly. No one really has any control over who comes through the door. Not only that, but the very purpose of the Church is to open its doors to sinners (who are hopefully repenting). Even Christ kept Judas in his midst. And therein lies the trouble.

 

And, if they attempt to show someone the door, as it were, can you imagine the back-lash? Esp. if it's someone who seems repentant, or really nice, or very sorry and humble. I feel for the OP. From my own experience I think she is in a lose-lose situation. My situation is not nearly as black and white (or awful) as hers, so I did fee compelled to "get over it" and put on my big-girl panties . But it has not been easy and I think it's been worse for me than if I'd just left and found another parish. I realize now that I'm not the bigger person. :(

PM, I'm sorry to disagree... I know of numerous occasions when a person has been told they are not welcome any more by the church leadership. All of the instances I know of were for pretty bad behavior: violence, or stealing, or persistent troublemaking. I've never personally seen this done capriciously.

Sometimes the person would be welcome back in case of coming to be reconciled to the church through confession- I've seen this happen too. But in this case you run into the same issue Cin raised about, how can you tell the repentance is sincere.

Mistakes could be made in either direction. And the congregation woudn't know what happened in the setting of confession because it's strictly confidential.

I'm thinking that the process Cin is discussing about ongoing accountability would be similar to the relationship of the person to the confessor.

[Incognito]

Churches can restrict attendance for any reason they choose.

 

How do they do that?  Have a bouncer at the door?

 

PM, I'm sorry to disagree... I know of numerous occasions when a person has been told they are not welcome any more by the church leadership. All of the instances I know of were for pretty bad behavior: violence, or stealing, or persistent troublemaking. I've never personally seen this done capriciously.

Sometimes the person would be welcome back in case of coming to be reconciled to the church through confession- I've seen this happen too. But in this case you run into the same issue Cin raised about, how can you tell the repentance is sincere.

Mistakes could be made in either direction. And the congregation woudn't know what happened in the setting of confession because it's strictly confidential.

I'm thinking that the process Cin is discussing about ongoing accountability would be similar to the relationship of the person to the confessor.

 

Telling someone they aren't welcome doesn't stop them from coming if they choose to.  

 

In the situation I knew of, there was no particular recourse the leadership of the church could take, as the person chose to continue attending out of spite.  Sure, they didn't have any leadership roles anymore (etc.), but attendance is open to the public.

 

ETA: I understand grace for sin and repentance, this situation really included no repentance and continual spite and vicious behavior.  Nothing illegal, though.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Incognito

[PrincessMommy]

PM, I'm sorry to disagree... I know of numerous occasions when a person has been told they are not welcome any more by the church leadership. All of the instances I know of were for pretty bad behavior: violence, or stealing, or persistent troublemaking. I've never personally seen this done capriciously.

Sometimes the person would be welcome back in case of coming to be reconciled to the church through confession- I've seen this happen too. But in this case you run into the same issue Cin raised about, how can you tell the repentance is sincere.

Mistakes could be made in either direction. And the congregation woudn't know what happened in the setting of confession because it's strictly confidential.

I'm thinking that the process Cin is discussing about ongoing accountability would be similar to the relationship of the person to the confessor.

 

Prebybtera - were they told they could not attend liturgy too?  I certainly know of people who have been told they are not permitted to commune for a period of time, but they still attended services.   However, violence was not an issue- at least as far as I know. 

[Bluegoat]

PM, I'm sorry to disagree... I know of numerous occasions when a person has been told they are not welcome any more by the church leadership. All of the instances I know of were for pretty bad behavior: violence, or stealing, or persistent troublemaking. I've never personally seen this done capriciously.

Sometimes the person would be welcome back in case of coming to be reconciled to the church through confession- I've seen this happen too. But in this case you run into the same issue Cin raised about, how can you tell the repentance is sincere.

Mistakes could be made in either direction. And the congregation woudn't know what happened in the setting of confession because it's strictly confidential.

I'm thinking that the process Cin is discussing about ongoing accountability would be similar to the relationship of the person to the confessor.

 

I've also known instances where people were restricted for similar reasons like being violent.  My parish had a person who was a problem that way, he was mentally ill and got a bee in his bonnet and was really a danger to people around.  Though he later settled into some better medication routines and then he was able to come back.

 

Most though do not really want to exclude people who are not causing that kind of problem, just because they do bad things.  It kind of misses the point of the organization, it would be like excluding alcoholics from AA.

 

But as far as confession - it's interesting that some churches today have this kind of public confession and repentance model because it was done in the very early church.  But the very early church also stopped doing it that way eventually, and switched to the model of private confession, typically with a priest or some other person with special responsibilities regarding privacy and leadership, and also, ideally, so training or experience.  And the reason for that change was very much about the kinds of problems created by situations like this.

[cintinative]

FWIW, I was aware of a situation where someone had done some pretty awful things, but still attended the church.  It was frustrating, but the staff explained that the church is a public space, and anyone who is not breaking the law is allowed to be there.  The staff of the church doesn't really have control or power over those who attend - they only have the authority that people choose to give them.  They can't make anyone do anything.  They can't force anyone to do counselling, or not come anymore.  From what I was told, it is not legal for them to do so.  They can make suggestions and encourage things, but they can't actually "do" anything about situations like this.

 

 

It is not really a legal thing at the church I attend. It has to do with the status as a member or nonmember. Members can be disciplined by the church and asked to leave. For nonmembers, there is not much they can do to force the issue. I suspect you are right--they could ask him to leave but if he continued to come all they could do was publicly announce his failure to meet their requirements.  I have never ever seen this done.

 

At the church I used to attend 18 years ago they had a couple of people who they "withdrew the hand of fellowship" for--basically, told the congregation to have nothing to do with the person because they refused to repent or acknowledge sin. I have never seen that at my current church. There was one person who was a member who they asked to leave, but they did it very quietly and there was no announcement or anything.  

 

 

I feel a little sick about this whole thing.  I just want to tell the leadership what I think, and hopefully then I can have peace that I have tried my hardest to help them be wise.  After that it will be largely up to them. 

 

It's just hard all around and seemingly there are no easy answers.

[cintinative]

UPDATE 9/15:  PLEASE please be praying. My dh and I are meeting with the Session on Monday.  From the few conversations I have had with the pastor they are very deceived. I am *DEEPLY* troubled by how they are giving this man the benefit of the doubt and believing some of the things that he is telling them about his wife. I am *DEEPLY* troubled that they appear to be pitying him for reaping the consequences of his sin.  I feel sick.

[SproutMamaK]

Ugh, I am so sorry. It is sickening to see people so blinded by an abuser, because you know that if the issue isn't properly dealt with it's just going to happen again. :( I hope the church listens to you!