For those uncomfortable with mohawk...

[tibbyl]

...are you uncomfortable with any striking departure from norm in physical appearance? The black clothing with chains emo-ish goth-ish look? Actually the goth and emo clothing appears reasonably modest to me. As a fashion dolt, I cannot enumerate all trends of last few decades but hope you get my gist. I remember when "rat tails" on kids were tsk tsk'ed by certain people who get upset about that type of thing.

 

What is your reaction to those who go to the extreme in the other direction: the old fashioned clothing and hairdos cited for modesty's sake, the none-LDS prairie dresses or ankle length skirts and pompadour dos or hair in buns, teen women in frumpy matronly clothing, swimsuits that look turn of century (20th century that is)?

 

Many have pointed out that those who dress against the norm are "calling attention to themselves" even if it is not intentional. Couldn't the same be said of those strongly concerned with modesty?

 

I asked this out of genuine curiosity as one who has never been able to get too excited about hairstyles or clothing as long as wearer is not breaking any public obscenity laws. For me, extremes at either end of spectrum evoke nothing more than a fleeting few seconds of interest, perhaps a glance, nothing more.

Edited October 4, 2008 by tibbyl

[pqr]

Excellent question and one meritorious of great thought. It also brings to mind the comment by an American girl I know who defended her going topless on a beach in Greece with the lines that if she did not do so she would be "drawing attention to herself."

 

Being conservative, I suppose I have a great deal more sympathy for dress codes that harken back to earlier times. That is not to say that I would be happy with a toga, the virtually bare-chested dress of 18th Century France or even that worn by Russian women prior to Peter the Great.

 

Perhaps the best way to describe my opinions are as follows:

 

While my children live in my house they will dress like young ladies and gentlemen (This is in he traditional sense of the word not the plebian tendency we have, in the States, to erroneously call all males gentlemen and all females ladies. They are not and never will be).

 

Young gentlemen have short hair, wear neat clothes (jeans, slacks, reasonable shorts, generally collared shirts). What they do not wear is Goth type clothing, bits of metal stuck in their heads (or any other region), anything over a bare minimum of jewelry, shredded or torn clothes, chains, makeup, outrageous hairstyles, overly tight pants, pants half way down their a#s etc.

 

Young ladies have reasonable hair, wear skirts, dresses, jeans, slacks, reasonable shorts in other words modest clothes. What they do not wear is Goth type clothing, shredded or torn clothes, overly tight pants or tops, excessive makeup etc.

 

The above only speaks to what I hold to be the appearance of young gentlemen and ladies.

 

Before I get counterfire, the above are my opinions. I am not saying that others should agree or disagree and am not trying to start a battle. We all raise our children to our own beliefs. This is simply an answer to a post.

[tibbyl]

You will get no rebuttals or haranguing from me; my position was stated in post. Thank you for taking time to explain your position.

Edited October 4, 2008 by tibbyl

[hsmamainva]

I don't mind at all. The only thing we've drawn the line on is anything that will alter their physical appearance forever, if that makes sense. A tattoo may be great now...but they may hate it later on and a friend of mine had to have one removed and it was an absolutely terrible experience!! So we've told them they have to wait until they're an adult to get any tattoos or odd piercings!

 

My oldest dresses in a mix of emo, grunge, and goth. Her hair changes color every week -- seriously! It goes from black to red to blue to purple and every mix in between.

 

But it's not going to cause any permanent harm. Trust me -- you wouldn't want to see pictures of ME from my teenage years back in the early 80s -- can you say "Wanna be a Pat Benatar look-alike?" :blushing:

[Laura K (NC)]

I'm a Christian -- a Catholic -- and as a woman, I've been conflicted about headcoverings for myself. (Don't shoot -- this isn't really a Christian post so much as a culture differences post!) The Bible seems to be clear to cover the head when praying; the debate starts when Christians interpret that verse as being appropriate for the day (the prostitutes didn't cover, for example, and to cover was to set oneself visually separate from them).

 

Your post reminded me that it is certainly true that styles and self-expression change over time. Modesty today isn't what it was 100 years ago. My ankles are showing as I type, I'm wearing pants, and my hair is cut in a bob. In short, I look "normal."

 

So. If a woman wears a headcovering, in church or in public, and very few other women wear them, she is setting herself apart. She is making a statement with her dress that says she is following a different set of rules than the norm. It is my perception, though, that if I wore a headcovering in church, I would stick out, and not necessarily in a good way. Some would think I was trying to be "holier than thou," or unapproachable. Some would even conclude that I was judgmental of other women who weren't following the Biblical rule.

 

None of these would be the case if I did cover my hair, but they are the main reasons I don't cover my hair. I don't have a husband or a minister that requires it. My sign of submission would not be to earthly authority over me on this issue, because there isn't any. How we dress is important on first impressions, and how we act is important on subsequent impressions.

 

I went into a store in the mall, "Hot Topic," for some necklaces for my boys. Some teens I know are afraid to go in that store because it's kind of dark, the music is unusual, and some of the clothing is pretty far out. So I go in as a middle-aged mom, feeling obvious and a little too preppy, and looked around for a while. Nobody talked to me. I got a sense, probably, that some kids with alternative looks do, of being a minority. After a while I got some help looking for a necklace (the kind I was looking for had sold out), and the sales chick was very nice, and I smiled and thanked her and left. The barrier went down after we started talking. Before then, though, we absolutely did assess each other, in some way, on the way each other looked.

 

If someone deliberately dresses different than the norm, they know well that they will attract attention. A girl who has to wear modest clothes when everyone else is wearing tight or skimpy outfits, or if she has to wear a one-piece bathing suit to the pool when all the other girls are wearing string bikinis, is going to feel somewhat self-conscious. We are a diverse country, but it's human nature to classify everything we know. Sometimes that results in hateful stereotypes. Sometimes, by our dress (like gang youth identification, like some perverse gang identification, we purposely set ourselves apart for assessment. I didn't want to take that on, as a Christian woman, so I don't cover. I'm relying more heavily on 2nd impressions and my behavior, than 1st impressions of holiness, that I might not always live up to.

[LG Gone Wild]

I am not "uncomfortable" with either. They just look absurd.

[Tracey in TX]

...are you uncomfortable with any striking departure from norm in physical appearance? The black clothing with chains emo-ish goth-ish look? Actually the goth and emo clothing appears reasonably modest to me. As a fashion dolt, I cannot enumerate all trends of last few decades but hope you get my gist. I remember when "rat tails" on kids were tsk tsk'ed by certain people who get upset about that type of thing.

 

What is your reaction to those who go to the extreme in the other direction: the old fashioned clothing and hairdos cited for modesty's sake, the none-LDS prairie dresses or ankle length skirts and pompadour dos or hair in buns, teen women in frumpy matronly clothing, swimsuits that look turn of century (20th century that is)?

 

Many have pointed out that those who dress against the norm are "calling attention to themselves" even if it is not intentional. Couldn't the same be said of those strongly concerned with modesty?

 

I asked this out of genuine curiosity as one who has never been able to get too excited about hairstyles or clothing as long as wearer is not breaking any public obscenity laws. For me, extremes at either end of spectrum evoke nothing more than a fleeting few seconds of interest, perhaps a glance, nothing more.

I just don't care for the style--it's too "Bubba" for my taste. I'm fairly trendy and fortunately my kids follow this trend. If not, it would be battle worthy in our home. Totally style preference; nothing more or less.

[tibbyl]

So. If a woman wears a headcovering, in church or in public, and very few other women wear them, she is setting herself apart. She is making a statement with her dress that says she is following a different set of rules than the norm. It is my perception, though, that if I wore a headcovering in church, I would stick out, and not necessarily in a good way. Some would think I was trying to be "holier than thou," or unapproachable. Some would even conclude that I was judgmental of other women who weren't following the Biblical rule..

 

I still do not comprehend why women would be threatened by a woman who covers her head in church out of her own personal conviction. But there are certain things I do in my life because they are right for me .... and I've learned to be discreet or mum about those things because others may feel I am judging them for *not* doing same.

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

[CactusPair]

Well, to be honest, certain styles do take me a back, but I try not to judge anyone or makes any assumtions based on clothes, hair, etc. I try to remember what I looked and dressed like when I was young, why I experimented with appearance, and how I was treated because of the way I looked.

 

I know too well from personal experience how very, very hurtful judgements about appearance can be. Some people carry their "disapproval" way too far.

 

Everyone should be treated with respect and judged according to how they behave themselves.

[Kelli in TN]

Well, to be honest, certain styles do take me a back, but I try not to judge anyone or makes any assumtions based on clothes, hair, etc. I try to remember what I looked and dressed like when I was young, why I experimented with appearance, and how I was treated because of the way I looked.

 

I know too well from personal experience how very, very hurtful judgements about appearance can be. Some people carry their "disapproval" way too far.

 

Everyone should be treated with respect and judged according to how they behave themselves.

 

:iagree:

I went through an uber-conservative stage. I was frumpy and I kept my kids frumpy. For that reason I have to really, really watch my attitude when I see someone dressing in deliberate frumpiness and especially when I see them dressing their kids in a frumpy way. I have to remind myself that it is none of my business.

 

I am pretty laid back about the other extreme, probably because I go to a church where purple hair is not given a second glance.

 

I do think piercings and tattooes need to be very carefully considered because of their permanence. Tattoes are expensive to remove and can leave scarring and piercings might not close up all the way. I am not against them, I just think they need to be carefully thought about.

[Mom2legomaniacs]

A lot of those things aren't my cuppa, but I wouldn't be really uncomfortable with things like that. The things that I am more uncomfortable with are the items that either show too much or that there is danger of showing too much should one have a tiny sneeze, perhaps.

 

I personally don't like tattoos or multiple piercings in various locations, but I am not uncomfortable with them. I wouldn't allow my child to have them. When they become of age, it is their decision, which I would ask them to think about for a very long time before acting on. My older ds has hair that is a little bit longer right now. Honestly, it is a really good look for him.

 

I don't care for clothing with slogans or pictures on them that are rude or the like either. Those do offend me.

 

Being heavily covered up? I wouldn't go there, but don't mind if others do. Not my business. They just don't have to worry about having that dessert and their pants being too tight!

[Confuzzled]

When I see people dressed differently from the norm it makes me curious and interested. I feel like I want to approach them and talk to them and get to know them a little better. I get so tired and bored of everybody looking and acting the same.

 

I love getting out of my vanilla middle class suburb and mingling with people of varying cultures, interests, and tastes. I enjoy going to the airport and sitting and watching all the interesting people.

 

When I see one of those high, stiff, spiked mohawks, my first thought is that I want to touch it and see what it feels like.

 

Kris

[HRAAB]

Well, I've done a 180 turn. We used to be an all dresses family as I have all girls. We might as well have worn a sign saying "we homeschool" with our denim jumpers, long hair, etc. The reason I did it? To not stand out in our homeschool group, to try to fit in, and largely because I was intimidated by the other women in our group. They seemed so knowledgeable, and self-assured, and I was so unsure. And there was this perception, or I should say my perception, that there existed this attitude that this was the more Godly way, the correct way to dress, and I didn't want to be judged negatively. My perception was helped along by some of the conversation I was invovled in, too.

 

Well, my dh thought I was nuts, and I started to rebel inside. It got to where I would wear dresses (dd's too) when we went to homeschooling gatherings, and the minute I got home, I'd put my jeans on. Finally, I decided to be myself. Unfortunately, there was some negative feedback.

 

One of my two older girls has gone from green, pink, bleached mohawks to completely shaving her head and wearing all black, goth styles. I let her do it because I felt she needed to get 'whatever' it was out of her system. I think she has. Right now she's pretty 'normal' looking except for a few extra piercings. ;) My younger dd's, who have never had to wear dresses, choose their own clothes and do a pretty good job of it. I do have my limits though. And the best part is I feel totally comfortable; I'm finally being myself. And I'm not at all bothered by women who wear dresses all the time. That is something I had to overcome: the feeling that they were judging me. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but it doesn't matter anymore.

 

So while I don't think mohawks are very attractive, they don't bother me. It's hair. And when I see a group of women all dressed in long skirts with long hair, I don't even blink an eye. I hope they're comfortable and doing it for the right reasons, for themselves, and not because they're looking for approval, like I was.

 

Janet

[Guest janainaz]

People dress differently for many reasons and I could care less how anyone dresses. A human being is much more than mere flesh.

 

As for women covering the head - I would be respectful of anyone, but when Jesus came his law was only to love God and love another. I don't think it's wrong though. I think it's wrong to be disrespectful of others and their beliefs. I think it's wrong to make a big deal about how people dress - even the girls who dress immodestly. Many of them don't know any better. Our society has presented a twisted picture of love and a twisted picture of how to get it.

[Chris in VA]

I wish I could be more tolerant, but I guess, deep inside, I am not. I don't like the Goth look, I'm not crazy about colored (as in pink or teal) hair, and, to be totally honest, some of the chains/piercings/dog collar stuff just looks trashy and stupid to me. Ds had a girlfriend who wore a spiked collar with a leash--a leash!--to our house. She also had a fox tail on. What does that MEAN? I felt uncomfortable with her in the house around dd, because the girlfriend was representing a lifestyle (s and m) and a worldview that I don't share and want my dd to have no part of.

 

But there was more unfortunately--she had a mouth like a sewer, and she was really...hard, for lack of a better word. She also didn't feel very good about herself, and was abused as a child, and lives in a pretty crummy parental situation. I totally get that not all kids who dress as she did act as she did. She also was a pretty good artist and had such potential. She could be quite nice, and had other redeeming qualities. Just couldn't see all of that past the multiple piercings, the colored mohawk, the obvious thong, the chains and such. She actually taught me a lot about appearance and self-image. I always felt a bit sorry for her, as well as annoyance and disdain (I'm being pretty honest here--)

 

I don't know. I want to teach my dd to look past appearance, I really do. A lot of the teenage culture is about separating. (I wonder if really goth parents have kids who dress like the prairie girls?) I do want to teach her that a neat appearance is good, tho.

 

I do have a friend with a fun perspective. When her kids insisted that they should be able to dress however they wanted, because clothes just don't matter, she came down the stairs in high (borrowed) leather boots and some other interesting clothes, when their friends were there. They got the point that there are some times when a certain type of clothing is more appropriate than something else.

 

I do have to say I'm more tolerant of dresses only or more modest stuff--we are heading in that direction. But I'm not into the extreme. It just doesn't seem natural to me.

 

Guess I'm still growing.

 

And I mean no disrespect to those of you whose children choose the more extreme clothes--to me, that's your decision and theirs. This is just my experience, and I'm learning--I am grateful to the former girlfriend for at least teaching me something.

[HRAAB]

I wish I could be more tolerant, but I guess, deep inside, I am not. I don't like the Goth look, I'm not crazy about colored (as in pink or teal) hair, and, to be totally honest, some of the chains/piercings/dog collar stuff just looks trashy and stupid to me. Ds had a girlfriend who wore a spiked collar with a leash--a leash!--to our house. She also had a fox tail on. What does that MEAN? I felt uncomfortable with her in the house around dd, because the girlfriend was representing a lifestyle (s and m) and a worldview that I don't share and want my dd to have no part of.

 

But there was more unfortunately--she had a mouth like a sewer, and she was really...hard, for lack of a better word. She also didn't feel very good about herself, and was abused as a child, and lives in a pretty crummy parental situation. I totally get that not all kids who dress as she did act as she did. She also was a pretty good artist and had such potential. She could be quite nice, and had other redeeming qualities. Just couldn't see all of that past the multiple piercings, the colored mohawk, the obvious thong, the chains and such. She actually taught me a lot about appearance and self-image. I always felt a bit sorry for her, as well as annoyance and disdain (I'm being pretty honest here--)

 

I don't know. I want to teach my dd to look past appearance, I really do. A lot of the teenage culture is about separating. (I wonder if really goth parents have kids who dress like the prairie girls?) I do want to teach her that a neat appearance is good, tho.

 

I do have a friend with a fun perspective. When her kids insisted that they should be able to dress however they wanted, because clothes just don't matter, she came down the stairs in high (borrowed) leather boots and some other interesting clothes, when their friends were there. They got the point that there are some times when a certain type of clothing is more appropriate than something else.

 

I do have to say I'm more tolerant of dresses only or more modest stuff--we are heading in that direction. But I'm not into the extreme. It just doesn't seem natural to me.

 

Guess I'm still growing.

 

And I mean no disrespect to those of you whose children choose the more extreme clothes--to me, that's your decision and theirs. This is just my experience, and I'm learning--I am grateful to the former girlfriend for at least teaching me something.

 

I think I'm more tolerant of different dress/hair styles because I used to be so intolerant. But reading your post reminded me of something for which I have no tolerance: a foul mouth. Foul, obscene language I cannot handle. Hmmm. Maybe some people react to mohawks, spikes, chains, whatever, the same way I react to bad language. I would have a very hard time seeing past their words. It makes me very, very uncomfortable.

 

So while I want and try to be tolerant, I do better with certain things than others.

 

Janet

[laylamcb]

Now, I personally am a pretty traditional dresser (not trendy because I am seriously style-challenged). But strangely, "weird" dress used to bother me much more when I was younger--and perhaps more concerned myself about fitting in. Now it just...doesn't. Honestly, I'm more discouraged when I see women who don't look comfortable in their own skin than I am teens in the throes of hormones. The latter are just going through a stage, but the former...?

 

There would be very few fashion/style points I'd fall on my sword for. I hope that my kids always dress in a way that projects respect for themselves and others and that they avoid clothing and style choices that objectify them. And selfishly, I hope that they don't put holes in their bodies: We have a multi-generational tradition of virgin earlobes in our family. :D

[Laura R (FL)]

Well, when I read the OP, I thought about modesty. To me, modesty is about blending in and not drawing too much attention to one's self.

 

Wearing a head covering doesn't apply to these sorts of modesty issues in my mind, because women choose it for a spiritual reason. I don't know how to explain it, but it's about submission to spiritual authority, and usually follows a deep personal conviction. So, it's not really about fitting in or not fitting in, it's about adhering to one's interpretation of Scripture.

 

The emo stuff doesn't bother me either; maybe because I see it as being 'in' right now. There is a difference between 'emo', 'goth', and 'scene', and the statements behind the teen cultures. I have an emo dd and I love taking her to get her spiky hair and her red (I mean RED) highlights. She looks cute. Yeah, she wears a lot of black, skinny pants, hoodies, and black hight op converse. No radical piercings, no tattoos, no really negative or offensive language/behavior/clothing is allowed. Modest or not, we just don't feel that it is appropriate to our family values. I don't see her as rebelling against the family or society. She's Republican like us, probably more tolerant than we are, gets all A's in her honors classes, calls herself a nerd, and we enjoy listening to her music together. I just see it as her having a lot of fun and trying to express herself. She's really turned off by profanity and negative values.

 

I think I agree with everyone else that modesty is really defined on an individual basis. I do think the majority would say that not drawing undue attention would be a general definition.

 

OK, one more rambling, funny thought. My emodd's best emo friend is not allowed to paint her fingernails black. It's a boundary her mom set, but I let my dd paint her fingernails black (I finally relented). Her friend can wear chains on her pants, but I told dd no way! I don't know why that is so funny. I guess we all have our trigger points! LOL

[74Heaven]

...are you uncomfortable with any striking departure from norm in physical appearance? The black clothing with chains emo-ish goth-ish look? Actually the goth and emo clothing appears reasonably modest to me. As a fashion dolt, I cannot enumerate all trends of last few decades but hope you get my gist. I remember when "rat tails" on kids were tsk tsk'ed by certain people who get upset about that type of thing.

 

I asked this out of genuine curiosity as one who has never been able to get too excited about hairstyles or clothing as long as wearer is not breaking any public obscenity laws. For me, extremes at either end of spectrum evoke nothing more than a fleeting few seconds of interest, perhaps a glance, nothing more.

 

I love this topic. I don't really care about how people dress. I am the one who smiles and looks passerby in the mall and the scarier-looking, more oddly dressed the youth is - the more likely they will get a warm smile and greeting from me. Nonverbally, I am saying "hi, you're welcome here and I don't judge you as anything other then a nice, kind young person. I accept you as you are/as you look."

 

But I do worry (as a mom) what attention, inner need, hurt they may have that causes them to want to stand out as a social misfit, outcast or loner. I am not saying the youth is any of those things but I worry that they are in need or more attention somewhere, at home, etc. I see lots of goth/black/chains-type of dress on lots of runaways and my heart says, "you don't have to *strive*so hard to be noticed. God notices you. He loves you!

 

lisaj

[Garga]

Certain types of clothing are outward symbols of your inward beliefs.

 

For example, the policeman's uniform is a symbol that he has the authority to enforce the law. A CEO's suit is a symbol that she is taking her role as decision maker seriously. If she showed up at an important meeting in flip flops, her employees could feel unnerved, as if she wasn't taking her leadership seriously and wouldn't lead the company correctly. Just because she wears flip flops doesn't change her intelligence or abilities, but a flip flop is a symbol of relaxing on the beach. People want their leader to look ready to work hard to guide a company.

 

Clothes are all just symbols that we've all subtly agreed upon.

 

Wearing the ultra-conservative clothing is a symbol of your ultra-conservative beliefs.

 

Wearing the Goth or Emo clothing indicates a certain lifestyle. The clothing is a symbol of a set of beliefs. Wearing those clothes aligns you with that set of beliefs. You might secretly be different, but when you wear the Goth uniform, you are telling everyone that you embrace a certain lifestyle.

 

My husband disagrees with me on this one. He says that people shouldn't look at clothes and make judgments. I totally agree with that statement. However, I firmly believe that even if people SHOULDn't make judgments, they DO. I prefer to face up to what people actually DO and not just what I wish they did.

 

He wishes people wouldn't judge based on clothing, but the fact is that they DO.

 

And I believe they do it because certain types of clothing are outward symbols of your inward beliefs. So, you end up being judged for the beliefs that those clothes symbolize.

[bairnmama]

I firmly believe that even if people SHOULDn't make judgments, they DO. I prefer to face up to what people actually DO and not just what I wish they did.

 

He wishes people wouldn't judge based on clothing, but the fact is that they DO.

 

And I believe they do it because certain types of clothing are outward symbols of your inward beliefs. So, you end up being judged for the beliefs that those clothes symbolize.

 

 

:iagree: Well said! I had been trying to formulate my response while reading the posts and I don't believe I could have said it any better than this. Personally, I've been a jeans & t-shirt gal for as long as I can remember. I hate dresses, but wore one every Sunday morning because it was expected as the minister's daughter in our small town where the majority of the population was well over 60. In college, however, some of my closest friends dressed goth, some of my male friends often wore dresses, others still had mullets. Knowing each of them, their attitudes, beliefs, conduct were often quite similar (hence all being friends), but it was very interesting to sit back and watch other's reactions to their choice of clothing while just passing by. It was assumed that their beliefs were different from what they actually were simply because of their choice of clothing.

[Aggie]

Certain types of clothing are outward symbols of your inward beliefs.

 

For example, the policeman's uniform is a symbol that he has the authority to enforce the law. A CEO's suit is a symbol that she is taking her role as decision maker seriously. If she showed up at an important meeting in flip flops, her employees could feel unnerved, as if she wasn't taking her leadership seriously and wouldn't lead the company correctly. Just because she wears flip flops doesn't change her intelligence or abilities, but a flip flop is a symbol of relaxing on the beach. People want their leader to look ready to work hard to guide a company.

 

Clothes are all just symbols that we've all subtly agreed upon.

 

Wearing the ultra-conservative clothing is a symbol of your ultra-conservative beliefs.

 

Wearing the Goth or Emo clothing indicates a certain lifestyle. The clothing is a symbol of a set of beliefs. Wearing those clothes aligns you with that set of beliefs. You might secretly be different, but when you wear the Goth uniform, you are telling everyone that you embrace a certain lifestyle.

 

My husband disagrees with me on this one. He says that people shouldn't look at clothes and make judgments. I totally agree with that statement. However, I firmly believe that even if people SHOULDn't make judgments, they DO. I prefer to face up to what people actually DO and not just what I wish they did.

 

He wishes people wouldn't judge based on clothing, but the fact is that they DO.

 

And I believe they do it because certain types of clothing are outward symbols of your inward beliefs. So, you end up being judged for the beliefs that those clothes symbolize.

 

I'm with bairnmama and dusty here. This is very true.

 

I actually gave my ds and dh a mohawk once. Ds hated it and dh just looked like an, well, not as handsome as he usually does. I did shave both mohawks off right after I took pictures because, basically, of what dusty said.

 

Aggie

[gardenschooler]

Wearing the Goth or Emo clothing indicates a certain lifestyle. The clothing is a symbol of a set of beliefs. Wearing those clothes aligns you with that set of beliefs. You might secretly be different, but when you wear the Goth uniform, you are telling everyone that you embrace a certain lifestyle.

 

What is the lifestyle? My kids sometimes wear things that I think look mighty strange, but I'm pretty sure it's not because of their 'beliefs'. They're just weird. There is no 'lifestyle'. :confused:

 

Maybe I don't know what the 'Goth uniform' is, or what it means. I do know that not all kids that wear something leaning in that direction are embracing some kind of lifestyle or new set of beliefs. Maybe they just think it looks good, and it's in style?

Edited October 7, 2008 by gardenschooler

[gardenschooler]

The emo stuff doesn't bother me either; maybe because I see it as being 'in' right now. There is a difference between 'emo', 'goth', and 'scene', and the statements behind the teen cultures. I have an emo dd and I love taking her to get her spiky hair and her red (I mean RED) highlights. She looks cute. Yeah, she wears a lot of black, skinny pants, hoodies, and black hight op converse. No radical piercings, no tattoos, no really negative or offensive language/behavior/clothing is allowed. Modest or not, we just don't feel that it is appropriate to our family values. I don't see her as rebelling against the family or society. I just see it as her having a lot of fun and trying to express herself. She's really turned off by profanity and negative values.

 

Same here.

 

You know, they're really covered up with all of those hoodies. I'm not having a problem with modesty at all - and I'm glad they don't 'dress funny' anymore. But it's moved from the clothes to the hair, and it does look pretty shocking to see my girl with bright purple highlights in her hair. I just don't think this embodies some 'lifestyle'. ? They're just being weird kids.

 

I think I agree with everyone else that modesty is really defined on an individual basis. I do think the majority would say that not drawing undue attention would be a general definition.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this. So is it immodest to stand out in any way?

 

My emodd's best emo friend is not allowed to paint her fingernails black. It's a boundary her mom set, but I let my dd paint her fingernails black (I finally relented). Her friend can wear chains on her pants, but I told dd no way! I don't know why that is so funny. I guess we all have our trigger points! LOL

 

Around here, black nail polish is fine, lots of eye makeup is not. Chains? No way! I'm glad that one has never come up. My girls aren't immodest as much as just. plain. weird-looking. But then I remember my mother trying to get me to take off all that black eyeliner when I was a teenager, and I realize where they probably got their weirdness gene.

 

There is something odd my oldest used to do - she'd wear pink and white striped knee socks with all of her other clothing either white, black, or denim. Kind of like those black and white photos that have one splash of color, ykwim? Anyway, it looked strange, so I'm glad she's over it now. :)

[Kathy in MD]

Unfortunately around here, clothing can imply that you belong to certain undesirable groups, including 2 vicious gangs. Luckily the gangs have very low visability here, but they are here. But I don't want my ds to feel totally out of it, so we work on compromises.

 

But I still have some rules:

 

1) No obscene sayings, skulls, etc.

 

2) Dress so that you don't appear threatening to older adults when you're running around with your friends.

 

3) No underwear (or other things) showing or clothing that looks like you might loose your pants at any moment.

 

4) No permanent body changes (tatoos and piercings) til you're an adult.

 

5) You will learn to tie and wear a tie before long and will know how to dress appropriately without overly complaining for more formal occasions.

 

I don't want to make my ds to dress too much like I would prefer for him to. He needs to blend in somewhat with his friends. I have a dear friend who is very much into dresses and uncut hair for her and her daughters. A few years ago the girls made the comment that they never felt comfortable until they went to an ultra, ultra conservative summer camp a day's drive away. It's sad that the girls couldn't connect even with other teens in their conservative church. Not that clothing made that impossible, it was just the clothing was indicative of other things that made it difficult for the girls to relate and make friends.

[dawn of ns]

Well, I've done a 180 turn. We used to be an all dresses family as I have all girls. We might as well have worn a sign saying "we homeschool" with our denim jumpers, long hair, etc. The reason I did it? To not stand out in our homeschool group, to try to fit in, and largely because I was intimidated by the other women in our group. They seemed so knowledgeable, and self-assured, and I was so unsure. And there was this perception, or I should say my perception, that there existed this attitude that this was the more Godly way, the correct way to dress, and I didn't want to be judged negatively. My perception was helped along by some of the conversation I was invovled in, too.

 

Well, my dh thought I was nuts, and I started to rebel inside. It got to where I would wear dresses (dd's too) when we went to homeschooling gatherings, and the minute I got home, I'd put my jeans on. Finally, I decided to be myself. Unfortunately, there was some negative feedback.

 

There definitely seems to be a point with some people where dress isn't simply a symbol for their own beliefs but crosses over into territory where they decide that because they hold those beliefs and they're dressing that way then so should any who profess similar beliefs. They start to mistake dress for depth of faith or commitment. In that their own ideals suddenly leap into the shallow end.

 

I'm not too bothered by dress. I've had a few jobs where my exposure to people went right from conservative Mennonite women to cross-dressing males and in almost all cases the people were all a delight to interact with. I love people.

[Melissa in Australia]

Everyone should be treated with respect and judged according to how they behave themselves.

good point.

but people tend to lump people with a certain style for dress together.

[Leighton Academy]

I don't have any issues with mohawks or goth clothing or various hair colors. When we're out, I'm more drawn to people's expressions and eyes than their clothing or hairstyle. Dh and I dress pretty "normal" now but we had our share of interesting looks when we were younger. I had piercings when I was younger. There is no permanent damage just a few small scars that are not even noticeable.

 

Right now, my 5 year old has hair that is fairly long while our 7 year old has short hair. That's the way they like it and I don't care as long as it's clean.

 

Since my boys are so young, we haven't had any issues with them choosing unusual hairstyles or clothes. They don't care what they wear as long as it's clean (actually, this isn't exactly a priority either, lol).

 

I think it's kind of cool when I see someone not being the "norm". As long as they are being true to themselves, I find it admirable that they are okay with being "different". I feel like just being a homeschooler is telling my kids that it's okay to go against the flow sometimes.

 

I'm not sure at what point we will draw the line for our boys but I would prefer that they don't get tattoos until they're adults.

[pqr]

Where do you draw the line? Here:-)

 

 

 

Makes us all appreciate our children all the more.

[Kelli in TN]

Same here.

 

You know, they're really covered up with all of those hoodies. I'm not having a problem with modesty at all - and I'm glad they don't 'dress funny' anymore. But it's moved from the clothes to the hair, and it does look pretty shocking to see my girl with bright purple highlights in her hair. I just don't think this embodies some 'lifestyle'. ? They're just being weird kids.

 

Around here, black nail polish is fine, lots of eye makeup is not. Chains? No way! I'm glad that one has never come up. My girls aren't immodest as much as just. plain. weird-looking. But then I remember my mother trying to get me to take off all that black eyeliner when I was a teenager, and I realize where they probably got their weirdness gene.

 

There is something odd my oldest used to do - she'd wear pink and white striped knee socks with all of her other clothing either white, black, or denim. Kind of like those black and white photos that have one splash of color, ykwim? Anyway, it looked strange, so I'm glad she's over it now. :)

 

You know, I look at your oldest and the thing that pops in my head is "Oh, she must be one of those artsy types!" And of course, 5 minutes into conversation and one knows the truth; she IS one of those artsy typse. I think she is sort of dressing to express that.

 

I think your middle girl is just experimenting. You are such a fun mom to relax and let her!

 

And I think the purple highlights are fun! It is funny what you say about the makeup, though. Can you believe that there have been conversations around here that involved the words "Dear, you look fine and your hair is nice but you really are not wearing enough mascara and eye-liner!" I would chase my girl around the house with a mascara wand and eye-liner pencil if I thought I could actually catch her!!! Of course she has watched me put on makeup and asked the question "How many layers of mascara do you plan to put on today?" (Mascara is my favorite makeup)

 

If my teen wanted funky highlights I would probably help her put them in. Can you just see my teen with pink or purple highlights? That's not going to happen!!

[Heather in Neverland]

The whole "experimenting with styles" thing, unfortunately, has had a very negative impact in my family.

 

I have two younger brothers. I have always been a trendy dresser as has one of my brothers. We respected our parents' wishes in dress code and we actually prefer to dress fashionably anyways.

 

My youngest brother, however, was "the rebel" in the family. At around age 12, he had his first phase and started dressing like a "skater"...no big deal, some bleach-blond streaks in his hair, some over-sized sweatshirts. It's just a phase.

 

The prolem was that most of the kids at his school that dressed like that were a bunch of slackers so he started skipping school with them, getting high with them, etc.

 

This activity introduced him to a new group of kids at school and he entered his rock phase. At 15, he joined a rock band at school and started dressing up like a singer from Motley Crue. My mom didn't want to "alienate" him with demands so she allowed it. It's just a phase.

 

That phase had him smoking, drinking and doing drugs with other kids who "dressed" like that, too, and were in a "phase" too. Well, the phase never ended. Those kids and that lifestyle became a long-standing part of his life.

 

He is now 33 years old, a severe alcoholic, pill-popper, cheated on his wife until she left him, has a little boy that he takes mediocre (at best) care of, STILL dresses in a sort of half-goth, half-rocker way, etc. And he is still playing in dive bars, waiting for his "big break".

 

In a nutshell, his life is a mess. It is very difficult for him to get a job as most employers will not hire a guy with arms covered in tattoos and multiple piercings with black eyeliner around his eyes.

 

Does the way a person dresses always lead to a destructive lifestyle? Of course not. What I am saying is that it is a slippery slope. There is a line we parents must walk in not wanting to alienate our kids or "tell them how to live their lives" and letting them walk straight into the fire and not try and stop it.

 

If you ask my mom right now if she would do it the same way again she would say no. In fact, she would say no with tears in her eyes and say "I never should have let him dye his hair." She feels responsible for his lifestyle now because that one act of teenage rebellion gave my brother a ticket into a group of kids he had no business hanging out with.

 

I know there are plenty of goth-dressing kids with mohawks who are good students and don't do drugs...but there are also plenty of those kids who are drowning in their own bad choices that parents have allowed, too.

 

Just another perspective from "a phase" gone wrong.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Heather in NC

[PiCO]

...are you uncomfortable with any striking departure from norm in physical appearance? The black clothing with chains emo-ish goth-ish look? Actually the goth and emo clothing appears reasonably modest to me. As a fashion dolt, I cannot enumerate all trends of last few decades but hope you get my gist. I remember when "rat tails" on kids were tsk tsk'ed by certain people who get upset about that type of thing.

 

I don't mind the goth look at all. I have a friend whose dd is goth- she started going out of her way to say "hi" to me when I see her at the mall. I think at first she was trying to annoy me, because I know her dress annoys her mom. Well, I just gave her a big "HI" back, and walked over and had a conversation! Now when she says hi she really means it.

 

What is your reaction to those who go to the extreme in the other direction: the old fashioned clothing and hairdos cited for modesty's sake, the none-LDS prairie dresses or ankle length skirts and pompadour dos or hair in buns, teen women in frumpy matronly clothing, swimsuits that look turn of century (20th century that is)?

 

Many have pointed out that those who dress against the norm are "calling attention to themselves" even if it is not intentional. Couldn't the same be said of those strongly concerned with modesty?

 

FLDS ladies dress that way to fit into their society. They only stand out when they come out in public.

Edited October 5, 2008 by PiCO

[Laura R (FL)]

Oh, I don't know how to do multiple quotes!

 

Do *I* think anyone who dresses to stand out is immodest? No. I do think the MAJORITY of people would agree that by definition, modesty is synonymous with either 1) chastity or 2) blending in. That's all I was trying to say. Perhaps if you don't agree, then you are in the minority.:D OK, saying this with absolutely no malice or offense meant, and with a REALLY big smile, SEE?

 

Yes, I do think we dress as representative of some sort of belief or value system. My emo dd dresses this way as a connection to her music, which is a huge part of her life. She wants to pursue a career in music (not instrumentally, but production) or digital media editing kind of stuff.

 

I can see how this type of stuff *could* be a gateway into worse behavior. I had half of my head shaved, dyed the rest platinum blonde, frizzed it out, dressed emo-ish, and hung out with heavy metal rockers in high school. By college I was an alcoholic and a drug user. I ruined my chances of med school, which I was pursuing, and had to leave college to get my life in order. Shhh, that's my little secret. ;) Anyway, I still allow my dd to dye her hair and stuff like that. Heck, I bought her black eyeliner and some gray eyeshadow this week. She's so slender, she often gets mistaken for a boy (seriously). The difference is that she has the guidance that I never had. She's in a conservative Christian umbrella school with group classes, exposed to situations under our guidance, we discuss EVERYTHING in our worldview, and I see her making sound decisions based on good judgment.

[gardenschooler]

You know, I look at your oldest and the thing that pops in my head is "Oh, she must be one of those artsy types!" And of course, 5 minutes into conversation and one knows the truth; she IS one of those artsy typse. I think she is sort of dressing to express that.

 

I think your middle girl is just experimenting. You are such a fun mom to relax and let her!

 

And I think the purple highlights are fun! It is funny what you say about the makeup, though. Can you believe that there have been conversations around here that involved the words "Dear, you look fine and your hair is nice but you really are not wearing enough mascara and eye-liner!" I would chase my girl around the house with a mascara wand and eye-liner pencil if I thought I could actually catch her!!! Of course she has watched me put on makeup and asked the question "How many layers of mascara do you plan to put on today?" (Mascara is my favorite makeup)

 

If my teen wanted funky highlights I would probably help her put them in. Can you just see my teen with pink or purple highlights? That's not going to happen!!

 

That's very nice of you to say, Kelli. Thanks.

[Jugglin'5]

I'm a Christian -- a Catholic -- and as a woman, I've been conflicted about headcoverings for myself. (Don't shoot -- this isn't really a Christian post so much as a culture differences post!) The Bible seems to be clear to cover the head when praying; the debate starts when Christians interpret that verse as being appropriate for the day (the prostitutes didn't cover, for example, and to cover was to set oneself visually separate from them).

 

Your post reminded me that it is certainly true that styles and self-expression change over time. Modesty today isn't what it was 100 years ago. My ankles are showing as I type, I'm wearing pants, and my hair is cut in a bob. In short, I look "normal."

 

So. If a woman wears a headcovering, in church or in public, and very few other women wear them, she is setting herself apart. She is making a statement with her dress that says she is following a different set of rules than the norm. It is my perception, though, that if I wore a headcovering in church, I would stick out, and not necessarily in a good way. Some would think I was trying to be "holier than thou," or unapproachable. Some would even conclude that I was judgmental of other women who weren't following the Biblical rule.

 

None of these would be the case if I did cover my hair, but they are the main reasons I don't cover my hair. I don't have a husband or a minister that requires it. My sign of submission would not be to earthly authority over me on this issue, because there isn't any. How we dress is important on first impressions, and how we act is important on subsequent impressions.

.

 

I don't cover for the same reasons, even though I think it is probably the biblical thing to do. The lesser of two evils in a sense.

 

I don't care for mohawks. It is not the style per se, it is the "look at me" reason that I perceive when I see one. I think the same thing when I see a girl or woman who wears things just a bit tighter or shorter than everyone else or someone tatted up, wearing a dog collar, or with metal spikes in their eyebrows. To me it just screams "I want attention". Perhaps I am misunderstanding their motives, and I try to shove the thought down as soon as it rears its ugly head, but I think some people are deluding themselves about how other people think and the way the world works; other people know exactly what they are doing and like the attention, whether it is good or bad attention. So be it. If you dress a certain way in the office or classroom, people are going to have certain impressions of you - that is just the way the world works. I want my children to understand that, and to be honest with themselves about why they dress and groom themselves the way they do. I think part of their lives as Christians is living for others, not just themselves, and being deliberately provocative in their dress, hair, etc, does not match that ethic. And yes, I would include "Little House on the Prairie" type clothing in that category.

[Jugglin'5]

Great post.:iagree:

 

Certain types of clothing are outward symbols of your inward beliefs.

 

For example, the policeman's uniform is a symbol that he has the authority to enforce the law. A CEO's suit is a symbol that she is taking her role as decision maker seriously. If she showed up at an important meeting in flip flops, her employees could feel unnerved, as if she wasn't taking her leadership seriously and wouldn't lead the company correctly. Just because she wears flip flops doesn't change her intelligence or abilities, but a flip flop is a symbol of relaxing on the beach. People want their leader to look ready to work hard to guide a company.

 

Clothes are all just symbols that we've all subtly agreed upon.

 

Wearing the ultra-conservative clothing is a symbol of your ultra-conservative beliefs.

 

Wearing the Goth or Emo clothing indicates a certain lifestyle. The clothing is a symbol of a set of beliefs. Wearing those clothes aligns you with that set of beliefs. You might secretly be different, but when you wear the Goth uniform, you are telling everyone that you embrace a certain lifestyle.

 

My husband disagrees with me on this one. He says that people shouldn't look at clothes and make judgments. I totally agree with that statement. However, I firmly believe that even if people SHOULDn't make judgments, they DO. I prefer to face up to what people actually DO and not just what I wish they did.

 

He wishes people wouldn't judge based on clothing, but the fact is that they DO.

 

And I believe they do it because certain types of clothing are outward symbols of your inward beliefs. So, you end up being judged for the beliefs that those clothes symbolize.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I think any style of dress, whether it be a green mowhawk or a throwback to Little House on the Prairie is just fine on a kid if it was the kid's idea.

 

If I were to send my dd out into the world- especially the kid world- with a green mowhawk or a Little House dress, I know darn good and well she is going to be teased relentlessly. IMO doing that when the kid doesn't want it for herself is a form of emotional abuse. The parent is robbing the child of his/her own identity and replacing it with the identity the parent wants.

 

However, if my dd came to me one day, and stated that she believed she should only wear Little House style dresses or wanted have a green mowhawk, I would gladly buy her some/get her hair done after I made sure she understood the ramifications of her decision.

 

I also believe in dressing for the occasion. I used to know lots of peeps who had a punk look but could transform during business hours to fit the situation. Their look of choice did not get in the way of their success or limit them in any way. If dd wanted the green mowhawk, she would have to understand that she'd need to use non permanent coloring or would have to give up some of the activities she enjoys- same with the Little House dresses.

[Joanne]

He is now 33 years old, a severe alcoholic, pill-popper, cheated on his wife until she left him, has a little boy that he takes mediocre (at best) care of, STILL dresses in a sort of half-goth, half-rocker way, etc. And he is still playing in dive bars, waiting for his "big break".

 

*As* an alocholic and addict, I can tell you that dress, hair styles and music choices are not a gateway drug, a slippery slope nor do they put anyone at risk for out of control behavior.

 

I was, FTR, a prep in High School. Drugs, alcohol, sexual promiscuity were represnted in approximately the same percentages no matter what dress, style or presentation kids had.

 

Alcoholism and addiction are physical diseases with an emotional and spiritual component. Your brother didn't get into that stuff because of dress or influence, he surrounded himself with people that helped to normalize his behavior so that his behavior didn't scream outrageous. You could do the same with suit attired CEO's, doctors, nurses, lawyers.

[pqr]

. IMO doing that when the kid doesn't want it for herself is a form of emotional abuse. The parent is robbing the child of his/her own identity and replacing it with the identity the parent wants. .

 

 

But Jedi, that is our job! If we let our children do exactly what they wanted what kind of parent would we be?

 

My children will never be allowed anything but semi-conservative dress. I would shave my son's head were he to get a haircut that I could not have modified back to something normal. Neither I, nor he, could imagine the reaction were he to get random holes pierced or stick pieces of metal in his ears, nose etc.

 

My job, as a father, is to mold my son and my daughter. This is the same manner as my father did with me. Not that I would ever have had a weird haircut as in my circle that demonstrated such a lack of masculinity that no "boy" would have ever even thought about it. I am fortunate that my son thinks in the same manner.

 

I posted this link before, but whatever parents allowed their children to get on the road that led to this

are gulity of abuse. I want my son to be more like this

in other words a Man, and there is no abuse in that!

 

It seems to me that ever since we, as parents, have relaxed standards we, as a society, have faced more and more problems.

Edited October 6, 2008 by pqr

[Jugglin'5]

There is some truth to what you're saying, but in all three of my high schools(we moved quite a bit when I was a teenager) there was a definite "uniform" for the worst behaviors. And there were exceptions to the "uniform" on both extremes - but they were exceptions. Some of it was a matter of degree as well. Maybe things have changed, and I will concede that I don't have a kid in school, so what do I know? But if I did have a kid in school, certain modes of dress and hairstyle would be red flags for me. If you hang out with friends who find certain behaviors acceptable, it becomes easier to rationalize the behavior to yourself. I know this because I was a prep, an overachiever, etc in my first school. When we moved, because we were flat broke in a wealthy neighborhood, I didn't fit in and found myself hanging out with more "punk" type kids, I guess they would be called Goth now. I never got into it whole hog, but the drug use I saw was a first for me, and I fell into some bad behavior, though my parents got a clue and switched school districts. I was back to overachiever friends again with a fresh start, and I was much better behaved because it was not socially acceptable to be otherwise. I was actually the "wild" one in my group (I wasn't promiscuous and didn't do drugs, but I did drink sometimes). Friends do matter.

 

 

*As* an alocholic and addict, I can tell you that dress, hair styles and music choices are not a gateway drug, a slippery slope nor do they put anyone at risk for out of control behavior.

 

I was, FTR, a prep in High School. Drugs, alcohol, sexual promiscuity were represnted in approximately the same percentages no matter what dress, style or presentation kids had.

 

Alcoholism and addiction are physical diseases with an emotional and spiritual component. Your brother didn't get into that stuff because of dress or influence, he surrounded himself with people that helped to normalize his behavior so that his behavior didn't scream outrageous. You could do the same with suit attired CEO's, doctors, nurses, lawyers.

[Heather in Neverland]

There is some truth to what you're saying' date=' but in all three of my high schools(we moved quite a bit when I was a teenager) there was a definite "uniform" for the worst behaviors. And there were exceptions to the "uniform" on both extremes - but they were exceptions. Some of it was a matter of degree as well. Maybe things have changed, and I will concede that I don't have a kid in school, so what do I know? But if I did have a kid in school, certain modes of dress and hairstyle would be red flags for me. If you hang out with friends who find certain behaviors acceptable, it becomes easier to rationalize the behavior to yourself. I know this because I was a prep, an overachiever, etc in my first school. When we moved, because we were flat broke in a wealthy neighborhood, I didn't fit in and found myself hanging out with more "punk" type kids, I guess they would be called Goth now. I never got into it whole hog, but the drug use I saw was a first for me, and I fell into some bad behavior, though my parents got a clue and switched school districts. I was back to overachiever friends again with a fresh start, and I was much better behaved because it was not socially acceptable to be otherwise. I was actually the "wild" one in my group (I wasn't promiscuous and didn't do drugs, but I did drink sometimes). Friends do matter.[/quote']

 

I agree. SOME people do drugs or drink for emotional/spiritual reasons but SOME people do it because they are in with the wrong crowd, are easily influenced by others, are more of a follower than a leader. This is exactly the category my brother fell into. The kids who were drinking all the time and doing drugs every day in school were also the ones dressing "goth", "punk", etc. Does one absolutely mean the other? No. But was it all just a coincidence? No. My brother did those things to fit in with his new group of friends. Now he can't stop (or says he can't).

[Ashleen]

My children will never be allowed anything but semi-conservative dress. I would shave my son's head were he to get a haircut that I could not have modified back to something normal.

 

Um...but wouldn't forcibly shaving someone's head give the person (any person) a lifelong grudge against you? I mean, if it started as just a haircut and ended with being held down and having one's head shaved against one's will, it could easily turn to a very serious rebellion that wasn't there with the initial haircut.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Ashleen

[Joanne]

SOME people do drugs or drink for emotional/spiritual reasons but SOME people do it because they are in with the wrong crowd, are easily influenced by others, are more of a follower than a leader. This is exactly the category my brother fell into. The kids who were drinking all the time and doing drugs every day in school were also the ones dressing "goth", "punk", etc. Does one absolutely mean the other? No. But was it all just a coincidence? No. My brother did those things to fit in with his new group of friends. Now he can't stop (or says he can't).

 

Experimentation can be accelerated by peer group.

 

Actual *addiction* to alcohol and some street drugs is a function of biology.

 

To assert that clothes is straight line/slippery slope to addiction is very inaccurate.

 

If he wanted to stop, he could. He doesn't want to stop; even though he should.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

The kids who were drinking all the time and doing drugs every day in school were also the ones dressing "goth", "punk", etc.

 

Oh not in my high school. It was the top 10 students, prom court, cheerleaders, football players, nicely dressed "good kids" who were partying hard in high school because we had the $$$$$ to do it. The "metalheads" might score a six pack and drink it behind the movie theater while we were having keg parties in half million dollar homes with plenty of pot, pills, hallucinogens, and even coke available (although my crew didn't mess with the white stuff). We would leave for lunch and someone would usually fire up a joint before we returned to school. One of my friends used to keep liquor in her locker in case someone was having a bad day. The school didn't search our lockers. The metalheads were always getting called to the office. We were the office assistants.

 

There were some kids who got into the heavy stuff too heavily and ended up in bad situations and even rehab. But, for the most part, all of us went on to be successful adults without addiction issues. Most of us had very high self esteeem, goals, ambitions, relationships, and family support and NOT a bilogical disposition to alcohol or drug addiction.

 

There are also the kids I knew who were "missionary kids" from families my dad associated with when he was in the duplicating business. Very very strict religious upbringings and ultra conservative dress, etc. A lot of those kids partied a lot more in college than I ever did.

[Remudamom]

I'm not uncomfortable with them, I just think they look stupid. What's the point? Self expression? Cry for attention? Desire to be in a Mad Max movie?

[Heather in Neverland]

Experimentation can be accelerated by peer group.

 

Actual *addiction* to alcohol and some street drugs is a function of biology.

 

To assert that clothes is straight line/slippery slope to addiction is very inaccurate.

 

If he wanted to stop, he could. He doesn't want to stop; even though he should.

 

I did not say that clothes are a straight line to addiction. You are twisting my words. I was merely pointing out that sometimes dressing in a certain style CAN lead to association with a group that engages in dangerous behavior. It does not ALWAYS lead there but to say that the way a person dresses will NEVER lead to dangerous behavior is, to use your word, inaccurate.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am not particularly bothered when other people dress in a bizarre fashion. I would not say that I am uncomfortable with the mohawk.

 

Any of those wishing to associate closely with me and consider themselves Christians as I do should dress modestly and well arranged. This means not sexually provocative, not overly trendy, not copying those with a low set of morals*, not purposely drawing attention to oneself with gawdy, outrageous selections (this was me in high school).

*The low slung baggy pants fashion started in prison. I do not think the majority of pop-stars have high morals. The goth look and grunge look copy those who use drugs or are involved in other unwholesome activities. A mohawk is copying those who rebel against authority.

 

Heather, I absolutely agree with you. I was an artsy bizarrely dressed one in HS and it led me to a crowd that used drugs and in general were extremely depressed. I became depressed, accused my mom of abuse, which was not true... but it was my perception at the time, and I had boys assuming I was easy because I dressed similarly to a girl in my group who was, so I was also dealing with a lot of sexual harassment. My parents took me out of school. The bizarre dress was not tolerated at work or religious meetings. I was cut off from my crowd. Everything in my life improved.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Lovedtodeath

[E_Edgerton]

I love a good mohawk! :) I don't really have an opinion on the social/cultural aspect. I just like them.

[Joanne]

I did not say that clothes are a straight line to addiction. You are twisting my words. I was merely pointing out that sometimes dressing in a certain style CAN lead to association with a group that engages in dangerous behavior. It does not ALWAYS lead there but to say that the way a person dresses will NEVER lead to dangerous behavior is, to use your word, inaccurate.

 

 

I'm sorry. I do not mean to twist your words. I also know how much pain, fear and frustration the situation with your brother must cause you and your family.

 

In addition to being a recovering person myself, I have close family members who are not recovered.

 

I completely agree with the bolded paragraph. In fact, when my boys attended a nearby indoor skatepark, I was on hyper alert for those reasons.

 

I do think association with certain peer groups can and does lead to *dangerous* behavior. I happen to think that happens across the board in terms of style, dress and "look". It's just more visible and expected from alternative dress; I don't believe it's more prevalent.

 

In terms of addiction, dress doesn't cause it. Peer association and pressure can accelerate experimentation, but addiction is separate. Alcoholics will be alcoholics no matter what circumstances under which they start drinking. Non alcoholics may become heavy drinkers; many have a period of time of alcohol abuse (think college) but they will not turn alcoholic. (Some street drugs are different in that they create addiction in and of themselves).

 

I'm sorry if my tone or words have hurt you.