Character issue, 11 yr old, does this sound bad?

[Janeway]

I think this is a huge deal. My husband thinks I am overreacting.

 

My 11 yr old has been home schooled for only 2 yrs. He was in public school prior to that. He is cute, and gets by on looks a lot. He knows this. I know, all kids are cute, but...others think he is so cute and teachers would say to me "but he is so cute so..." in reference to why he got away with things. Plus, he throws tantrums. I do not think that is cute at all. He was still holding his breath at 8 yrs old and stomping. I still see tantrum in him, just not as bad as it used to be. I have really been working on his behavior.

 

BUT, in December, we went to a party for home schoolers that a friend held, for Christmas. At the party, she had a trivia contest. You were supposed to raise your hand if you meant one answer or another, like raise your hand, or hold your hand a certain way, depending on the question. And, then, if you got it right, you were supposed to mark it on your paper. I caught him cheating. He would hold his hand sideways and then mark he had it right. As in, he would hold his hand sideways when it was supposed to face forward or back. Or he would half hold his hand up if he was supposed to hold it up or down. Then, he would give himself the point. Twice, he claimed he won the trivia contest and collected on prizes. I was not OK with that. I was busy helping with other things so I only saw him collect the prize the first time. The second time, I saw what was happening and tried to correct him but he got upset with me and I kept trying to stop him. Short of talking loudly for everyone to hear, he kept doing it. I probably should have taken him out of the room. But it is too late for that now. I was shaken by his behavior and was trying to discretely put an end to it. 

 

I feel like this IS his character. I was shaken, but really, not shocked. I found out on his computer he had been going incognito (I have since then set parental controls). Tonight, he hit his little sister. He will, literally, bat his eyes at you when caught in something. He is not supposed to eat in the living room, but constantly does it. I need to throw my couch in the trash because of him. When I catch him, he will blink his eyes at me and say "awww, " and giggle sort of. He knows he is doing something wrong, but continues to. I keep taking electronics away. But, beyond that, I am just 100% at a loss. I keep telling my husband something is wrong here. I think he is just now taking me seriously. But, neither of us has a clue what to do with this. These are repeat behaviors, not one time things. For example, the other day, I unlocked his computer. I told him I wanted to give him the chance to monitor his own time and be honest about it. I gave him his list of homework, which was very very little school work. He goes ballistic if I give much, so I have massively streamlined everything. I also gave him his chores. He kept getting on the computer and telling me his work was done. I kept having to get him off. His homework was 1 practice from Singapore Math and 1 page from Keys to Fractions. His chore was to sweep by the front door and line the shoes up and carry the Legos that are on the steps to his room. He is almost 12 yrs old. I ended up having to completely take his computer away. But in my opinion, at his age, it should not come to this.

 

OK..please be kind with your responses. I wonder if some sort of evaluation is in order for this. But, I have checked with our insurance and our options are limited. Thanks! And, oh yeah, my husband thinks I am completely overreacting to think something is wrong where he might need some kind of evaluation.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Janeway

[Barb_]

You are right to be concerned, and you're probably nearing the closing of the window to neatly deal with it.  It could be a developing personality disorder, or it could simply be as you said: he's used to getting his way and has learned to manipulate people.  It's hard to tell from your post for certain, but I agree that an evaluation by a therapist specializing in personality disorders would be a good first step both to rule out certain things and to give you some guidance as to dealing with the behavior.  

 

 

[Barb_]

One other thought.  Parents and children are often mismatched.  Some parents are kind, laid-back, laissez-faire, and willing to let things unfold.  When they get similarly matched children, all is well, but when they are blessed with a naturally strong willed, or self-centered, or mischievous, or downright stubborn child things can get ugly.  Introverts with extroverts, extroverts with introverts, soft-spoken people with adhd children, or big personalities with timid anxious types...all of these combinations are difficult and can create character issues or anxiety issues or a host of other problems that don't happen when a parent's style is well matched to his or her children.  It sounds like you may have had a little of this going on in your home with this particular child, but you are beginning to see that and are looking for guidance to make some changes?  

[Tsuga]

I think that you are right that it is a character issue but I would not immediately jump to "personality disorder". Remember St. Augustine's confessions? Those are a LOT of confessions.

 

 

 

I gave him his list of homework, which was very very little school work. He goes ballistic if I give much, so I have massively streamlined everything. I also gave him his chores. He kept getting on the computer and telling me his work was done. I kept having to get him off. His homework was 1 practice from Singapore Math and 1 page from Keys to Fractions. His chore was to sweep by the front door and line the shoes up and carry the Legos that are on the steps to his room. He is almost 12 yrs old. I ended up having to completely take his computer away. But in my opinion, at his age, it should not come to this.

 

I did this at 12. My stepson does it. There are some kids at 12 who have the impulse control and self-reflection to do what you are asking, but not all, and it is not (in my opinion) indicative of their entire future. "Are you done?" "Yes." I felt somehow at the time that me being almost done, in my mind, which was really nowhere near done, was close enough? I don't know what the heck I was thinking. I was obviously wrong. I did not grow up to be a psychopath, though so that's hopeful.

 

I think you need firm limits and firm schedules and really to let him have more responsibility one responsibility at a time, rather than one chunk of time at a time, if that makes sense. He earns the right to mind himself for x, but he can lose it. Then he can have y. But they need to be explicitly, clearly linked to the rights he's earning.

 

In our home we often find ourselves saying, "You can have that right when you've shown the responsibility." "So and so has that right because she showed such and such responsibility." Again. And again. And again. And again. For everything. It is tough and yes, they flip out and fall apart, especially my older daughter, but all of them at times. The look of shock on a child's face when mom and dad say 'no'! "But that's impossible--can't you see, this is something I must have or the world will end?" Yep, and I'm going to watch your world end right there with you, child. Let's end the world, then when we are done with world-ending gnashing of teeth, the math will still be there.

[Barb_]

I agree with Tsuga. I really think he's just testing you to see how far he can push and what he can get away with, but if you have a nagging feeling that something is off then I say you should do the evaluation regardless of the advice you get here or whether your husband thinks it's warranted.  If it's nothing, you're out some money but you have peace of mind.  If it's something and you didn't do it, you may regret it.

[Shellydon]

Yeah, I think it is a really big deal.  I would not take it easy on the school work.  I would up his work to a typical level, I would take away all electronics, period.   I would assign hard physical labor chore-- mowing the lawn, digging holes, moving rocks etc.  I would have zero tolerance for anything.  Basically I would shut him down and make him work. 

[Arctic Bunny]

What actions on his part led to you unlocking his computer to see if he could monitor himself? Because from everything else you wrote, it sounds like you knew he couldn't do it. So really, you set him up to fail.

 

A different option would have been to say, once this school work and this school work are done, and these two chores, you may use the computer for X number of minutes. And then you check to make sure x, y, and z are done before unlocking the computer. Then you give him a five minute warning before shutting off the computer.

 

If food isn't allowed in the living room, what are the consequences each and every time for doing so? Vacuuming the couch and floor?

 

It really sounds like he is walking all over you, I'm afraid.

[PeterPan]

Some kids need a lot of structure for a lot longer.  Your scenario sounds odd to me to take a dc who had needed supervision, who wasn't self-monitoring or complying with anything, and hand them things and say here I want to trust you...  That doens't make sense.  You supervise, create structure, and modify that structure as long as they continue to succeed.  

 

I think you could ask hard questions.  WHY is he being sloppy and lazy and non-compliant?  Does he have some ADHD that you know of?  I think homeschooling is not very inspiring to some kids.  It doesn't come with structure, it doesn't come with motivation, and it doesn't come with accountability.  He has no one checking that he's not following the rules and enforcing a consequence.  I think it would be reasonable to ask what WOULD it take to give him enough structure, enough oversight, enough accountability that he WOULD follow through on things and learn this discipline?  Because, clinical or not, reality is MANY problems respond to structure, accountability, and follow through.

 

I don't think homeschooling solves everything.  The longer I homeschool, the more I conclude that not only does it NOT solve everything but that it possibly KEEPS us from options that would help.  But my situation is hard.  Your ds looks like a saint compared to mine.  ;)  But I'm just saying those are the kinds of questions I ask *myself* as I'm sorting through how I'm handling my own situation.  What will it take to get the amount of structure the dc needs to succeed?  Who is the right person to give the teaching and accountability for that?  In what situation or way will they be most motivated to make the changes?  

 

I think he does things because he's trying to see what he can get away with.  He may feel bored or isolated.  He's been breaking your rules but no one notices?  That's isolated.  Or you sit there while he breaks the rule and let him do it?  Probably not, lol.  So he maybe is sort of extrovert or not having some need met to be with people, to compete, to succeed, to be noticed, so he does these things.  Yes, I think kids do bad things and sin, yes!  But I think there's something screwy in our homeschooling culture that expect all kids to just sit at home and volitionally, happily go through mounds of work, all by themselves, and say wow isn't this great!  I think some kids do and some kids do better with competition, accountability, someone noticing.  

 

So if you want to be that noticing, that could work.  He doesn't sound ready for the level of independence you want.  I would provide more structure.  I'd try to get some strong character influences in his life, some things where people notice and affirm yes you do your work, yes you should be honest, yes you should work hard.  But clinical explanations, what you're thinking ADHD or some kind of developmental delay?

[Jean in Newcastle]

It sounds like he has not had consistent parenting.  I would not blame the child for that. 

[Arcadia]

He is used to getting his way and charming his way out of trouble. I would start with firm expectations and house rules before evaluations.

 

My very independent kid needs firm rules and expectations. If I give him work on something he does not have interest in without telling him my expectations, I would get half baked effort. If I state the quality of work I expect, he would try to meet it.

 

My other kid isn't independent yet because for him planning and executing work completion is not an intrinsic ability and he has to be explicitly taught and guided.

[lllll]

nm

Edited November 14, 2016 by cathey

[HomeAgain]

Tomato stake him.

 

I have a policy with my kids that I don't say something twice.  The first time is a warning.  The second time is instant removal, staying right next to me for the duration.  Disconnected punishment does nothing to address the real problem: distrust.  If I can't trust a child, I'm not going to let them out of my sight, and I will tell them that AND how to gain trust back when they are disciplined.  And, if I'm going to put a child in a position of trust when I know they're lying, that's on me and my character issues, not the child I'm teaching.

[bolt.]

I don't think it's fair to say that a person has a "character issue" when their character is only two-fifths formed. He's not ready for your expectation that he have excellent personal ethics that he maintains through internal motivation. 25 year olds have that. 20 year olds are pretty close. At 15, his cognitive and moral development will be three-fifths complete. You get the idea.

 

Right now he is a very practical creature. He uses techniques that he knows are usually successful to achieve short term goals (often selfish) and to get out of trouble (even if it's a short term solution).

 

That is developmentally normal.

 

Lying and charming are very successful techniques, and he *genuinely* does not *see* that they hurt people and cause more trouble than they solve. As far as ethics, he has a sense of justice (things should be 'fair') but when he is involved in the situation, he is torn between fairness and selfishness. He needs help to sort that out, and support for the fair options during his decision making process.

 

You've mentioned a number of issues, and to work well with him, they need to be focused on individually, one at a time. I think your "top two" are his lying/cheating, and his 'charming'. Both of these he does for a few reasons, but often to get out of trouble, right?

 

So, we can develop an individual strategy for each of those. Lying is much harder, but either can be done. There are a few first steps to either plan, so, while you decide which one to focus on, start with these things to convince him of your good will and kind intentions (which will help him start co-operating with you).

 

- Play with him. 10 minutes once or twice a day, focus exclusively on him and join his play (let him direct). Start cheerfully, end cheerfully. Don't make a big deal, just start joining in.

 

- Hug him heart-to-heart for at least 20 seconds at a time, at least 3x per day. The human body releases hormones through physical touch, especially extended chest-to-chest contact. This feels relaxing and helps families with 'bonding' (the real scientific thing, not something airy-fairy).

 

- When you need to intervene (as discipline) change your own approach so that you sound matter-of-fact, sympathetic, or at least unperturbed.

 

Example: "Yikes! That's not allowed. I'm going to have to take that away now." Try to communicate that you are going to do what you have to do, but you are not mad at him, and he is still a good kid, and you expect to carry on with a pleasant day. If he expresses distress (cries, stomps) you express sympathy and offer a hug, another kind gesture, a different activity. If he decines, tell him he can have those things whenever he is ready. (I've got more to this if you have questions.)

 

- If you use corporal punishment, consider stopping, at least short-term while we try these other things.

 

- Increase your supervision and cut off all access to objects and permission for solo activities that precipitate trouble. Don't make it a punishment: just make it so that problem situation are going to have difficulty happening again.

 

- Tell him nice things, just randomly through the day. "I like you." // "You make me happy." // "I appreciate your help." // "You have a wonderful sense of humour." -- Not really earned compliments ("Goodjob on that math question.") but just general statements that he is a good person and a valued family member. Aim for 6 daily.

 

These things set the stage and till the ground for your approach to changing his negative behaviours. He *has* to believe you are on his side, or he will fight against you while you try to do good things. These techniques will help him believe you that they are 'good things' and co-operate with your goals and changes.

 

If discipline is not teamwork, it's an attack. These things tell him that you are on his team... They come before you asking him to join your team.

Edited March 10, 2016 by bolt.

[Julie of KY]

I would work on things in baby steps. You can't change character overnight.

Personally, I wouldn't jump to evaluations.

 

Start with baby steps. Don't give him a long list of schoolwork. Give him one or two things. Go up from there. Some much older kids still can't manage their time well to get things done. Praise when he meets these small steps and help him make bigger steps.

 

There's nothing wrong with being charming, but it shouldn't be used to get out of lying etc.

 

IF caught in a lie, ask him if he did it - figure out how to make him actually confess (not just smile sweetly that yes, he's caught). I'd tell him that I already know the truth and he won't get punished for confessing, but will be punished if he doesn't. Make sure you KNOW the truth first. It is hard to confess, but will lay the groundwork for telling the truth.

 

Don't set him up for failure. Make the computer unaccessible until he's done with his work and has permission. This might require password locking the computer or moving it to a different room.

 

Supervise so that he succeeds.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Julie of KY

[fairfarmhand]

Don't make the mistake of thinking "He's x  years old. He SHOULD be able to do blank blank and blank without me standing right here." There's a huge range of normal when it comes to personal responsibility and middle schoolers are notoriously flaky.

 

Do lots of supervision, lots of scaffolding.

 

And please read the Explosive Child to help you get a better handle on the tantrums. This book totally changed my paradigm.

 

Don't take it personally. Some kids are a hot mess and they need more of you, Don't automatically jump to "character issues." and "psychopathic kids" :) when it may just be a matter of maturity, consistency, and a different set of parenting tools.

 

Here's a couple of blog posts I wrote about my dd that might help you.

 

https://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/raising-your-challenging-child-what-is-a-challenging-child/

 

https://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/challenging-kids-and-schoolwork-meltdowns/

 

https://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/challenging-kids-and-schoolwork-meltdowns-part-2/

[lulalu]

Not as an alarm but in case it hasnt crossed your mind incognito searches probably mean he has been looking at porn. If I were in your shoes all access to technology would be cut quick and a talk over many days about porn and sex etc. This can cause a lot of behavior issues with kids.

 

Secondly, I dont know your religion, but most faiths have moral teachings. Pullout times to just focus on your faith one on one with dad if possible. Pray, learn scripture about specific areas etc. Read some books together that dealsith lying, cheating etc not overtly preachy books but ones that show life.

 

I agree with much that has already been said. Dont give up he is still young!

[wintermom]

I think this is a huge deal. My husband thinks I am overreacting.

 

...

 

I wonder if some sort of evaluation is in order for this. But, I have checked with our insurance and our options are limited. Thanks! And, oh yeah, my husband thinks I am completely overreacting to think something is wrong where he might need some kind of evaluation.

 

I think this is definitely something that needs to be dealt with, but I don't think it necessarily needs to start with a psychological evaluation. 

 

Our ds 10 has some similar traits. He's been caught cheating, lying, and disobeying house rules. He'll also complain about school work. He's cute and very smart, and has figured out easier ways to "win" so he doesn't have to do the hard work to win or complete the tasks legitimately.

 

We have discussions with him that he's only hurting himself by denying himself the opportunity to learn, build self-discipline and perservernce, and most importantly he's destroying our trust in him. He's no longer a "man of his word." He's still a little young to understand how many parts of his life this distrust will impact, but he's beginning to when his siblings and father refuse to play certain video games with him because he constantly cheats. Everything he does and says starts to become scrutinized, not because we're mad at him, but because we've been lied to over and over. 

 

I think you will have very little success with this issue if your dh isn't on board with addressing it together with you right now. It's not going to be easy for any of you, but it will be so important for ds in his future life and relationships with others. Also, there are some situations where getting caught cheating could impact the course of his life permanently.

Edited March 10, 2016 by wintermom

[73349]

Some kids have a need to push boundaries some and see what they can get away with. Your DS has found out that the answer is A LOT!, and that's exciting and fun (and maybe a little scary) for a kid who's immature enough not to have strong inner controls.

 

I don't think you need a psych evaluation, if you can change the answer to "Not that much." Set a day to start, let him know up front that it's coming, and make monitoring and correcting him a top priority--even higher than not making a scene/interrupting an event, higher than getting the laundry folded, whatever. You can come right out and tell him that you're going to supervise him more like a young kid while he's building the self-control he'll need as an adult--it's support, not a punishment. You might also choose to share Kohlberg's six levels of moral development.

 

Having taught 6th grade, I can say yes, some very nice and likable kids will cheat, especially if the task is daunting and the prize enticing. (You know when you get not one but two papers from weak writers proclaiming that a program "epitomized the Rooseveltian notion of priming the pump" that their desire for a good grade overcame their knowledge of avoiding plagiarism.) Correction works, though. For moral beginners, the lesson has to be that they're not going to get away with very much for very long.

Edited November 19, 2022 by 73349

[wintermom]

It sounds like he has not had consistent parenting.  I would not blame the child for that. 

 

I think there are personality types that lean more toward this type of behaviour, too. Some dc push the limits in ways that are unimaginable to the average person.  A child doesn't wake up one day and become a "limit pusher," though, so this has probably been going on for a while.

 

Actually, there probably has been consistent parenting, but there hasn't been a strong enough reason to address and attempt to change the behaviours of cheating and dishonesty. That's hard work.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by wintermom

[Tsuga]

 

 

You know when you get not one but two papers from weak writers proclaiming that a program "epitomized the Rooseveltian notion of priming the pump" that their desire for a good grade overcame their knowledge of avoiding plagiarism.

 

That made me laugh out loud. What a coincidence. It must be something they happened to see in a chat on WoW, right? Or they happened to come across it while reading their grandfather's Encyclopedia Britannica while at his place for the afternoon. Yep, that's it.

[Artichoke]

shared too much. 

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Artichoke

[Pen]

I think it would be helpful to have an evaluation to know if there is a physiological or other issue underlying what your son is doing / not doing. I am currently reading a book about "dyslogic" syndrome that tends to more emphasize physical issues rather than emotional ones for such behavior (things like lead poisoning, reactions to chemicals, etc., etc.), and that is also possible.  It could be learned behavior, but a lot of kids are cute and not necessarily behaving the way you are describing, and not all kids who act that way are cute, so I am not sure that is especially related.

 

At the scariest end, probably far beyond what your son's situation is, I was also recently reading a book at the library called January First about a child who had childhood onset schizophrenia, but even that had ways that it could be managed once they figured it out and started dealing with it.

 

In any case, I think you are right to be concerned.

 

Not sure how much he will end up costing, but couch replacements and the like add up, so possibly spending the money, even if all out of pocket, on getting some answers would be more helpful in the long run than coping with the issues.

[The Governess]

I recommend the book "Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child." It's a very practical book on how to deal with limit pushers and stubborn kids. They need extremely clear boundaries laid and consistent application of consequences.

 

I think that a lot of the time, misbehavior occurs because boundaries aren't clear enough. Not knowing what kind of behavior is expected (or how a parent will react) can create a lot of anxiety in a child. This can show up as defiance, tantrums, withdrawal from family relationships, etc. Predictable parenting and appropriate limits help kids feel safe.

[Sahamamama]

Yeah, I think it is a really big deal.  I would not take it easy on the school work.  I would up his work to a typical level, I would take away all electronics, period.   I would assign hard physical labor chore-- mowing the lawn, digging holes, moving rocks etc.  I would have zero tolerance for anything.  Basically I would shut him down and make him work. 

 

Yes, this is exactly what I thought as I read the OP's post.

 

1. The electronics, especially the games, would be gone. Just gone. Not with any time limits, but with the understanding that you will be looking at his A-B-Cs -- his Attitudes, Behaviors, and Character traits -- instead of the calendar, to determine if he gets anything back. I would assert my parental authority with this, even to the extent of being a bit heavy-handed, because I think you will get away with this more now than you would in a few years. Don't wait until he's 14. And I agree with a PP that if he's searching incognito, you will want to address the likelihood (possibility?) of porn.

 

2. School work and other expectations would ramp up. For every instance of dawdling or manipulating, I'd pile on more work. I'd stand over him, if necessary, and drive him to finish it respectfully. I agree with Shellydon, I would shut him down (on the manipulation) and make him work.

 

3. Hard physical labor and/or mandatory exercise would become a new and daily requirement. If you can't come up with enough work around your own property, ask at church or in the neighborhood if others need work done. He volunteers his time and labor.

 

4. In regards to cheating/truthfulness/integrity, I suppose my question is, "Why didn't you call him on it when you saw him cheating?" That is, why did you let him get away with it? Call him out on it, expose him in public, if necessary. How embarrassing, to be turned in by your own mother! But if that's what it takes to turn him into an honest person, it's worth it, I think.

 

5. As to hitting his little sister, what were the consequences of him doing that? Losing electronics? How are these -- sibling relationship + electronics -- related in any way? How did losing the electronics serve to build his relationship with and respect for his sister? I think your son needs direct, explicit instruction on this, on how to treat girls and women, and clear expectations for his behavior. How can you link the consequences to the relationship? What will build his love for his sister?

 

6. As to eating on the sofa, what were the consequences of him doing that? Losing electronics? How are these -- disobeying family food rules + electronics -- related in any way? Perhaps you could set clear expectations and consequences for violations. If he eats on the sofa, he forfeits the next meal. So if you see him eating lunch there, he misses supper.

 

7. As to not doing his assigned chores, what were the consequences of him doing that? Losing electronics? How are these -- refusing to do chores + electronics -- related in any way? His consequence for not doing chores immediately, willingly, and thoroughly probably ought to be more chores.

 

IMO, you are over-using the taking away of electronics. Your son just waits you out, but nothing internally changes. He knows you will relent, feel guilty, and give him back those things. The consequences don't really seem to be "felt" much by him. Are they? Your one response is not reaching his heart.

 

So, I think you need to abandon "taking away" as your response. He needs something added -- explicit moral guidance, your disappointment, your outrage, your honesty, your parental courage. He needs you to pour into his soul something from your heart that reaches his heart. HTH.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Sahamamama

[Barb_]

You know, you all may be right that an eval would be overkill. I just had the year from hell with one of my older offspring that isn't completely over, and in retrospect the whole thing began when she was 11 or 12 years old. There were some red flags at that time that I didn't take seriously until I had the benefit of hindsight. Looking back, her problems are obvious to me but at the time I saw her behavior as "a phase I need to work through." Lord I wish someone would have said, drag that kid to a counsellor. So that's where I'm coming from. I may be overreaching, but the OP should just do it if she feels in her gut that she should.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Barb_

[shannonann]

My son has done every single thing that you mention your son doing. My son's behaviors were very extreme. In order to successfully take away electronics as punishment, we finally had to get a lock box and lock up the power cords to the tv and computer, the game controller and his phone. He was finally diagnosed with ADHD and ODD. He received neurofeedback treatments and our lives have improved drastically. His ODD is completely gone and his ADHD is greatly improved. Diane Craft believes that an imbalance of bad bacteria in the gut can cause bad behavior in children. She has had success with treating children with probiotics.

 

I'm not trying to diagnose your son with any kind of illness or condition. I'm just making the point that what seems like simply bad behavior might have deeper roots.

[SanDiegoMom]

Just to give a BTDT story.... my oldest kid is the strongest willed, independent, manipulative (or persuasive, depending on my mood) kid.  She was a holy terror throughout middle school.  Every electronic device I would take away, she found it somehow. Figured out passwords. Snuck out at 2 am on a school night (public school) to use the IPad.  Even watched Netflix on her Nook -- with its tiny little viewer screen, while she was supposedly sleeping.  She really gave me a run for her money. Mismatched parent and child for sure (I am very laid back and hate confrontation) combined with dad being deployed twice during that time.  She was extremely curious and looked up god knows what on the internet.  I definitely have always considered her my test case for what not to do as a parent.

 

Somehow she has turned into a hard working, loyal and loving kid who always wants to be with her family and whose first New Year's Resolution (before all of the normal get homework done every day on time, run regularly, eat healthy vegetarian meals, etc) was "I will follow an ethical code of conduct in all my actions".  I was floored when I saw that --- for years she'd been lying to us (usually regarding sneaking dessert, staying up to late, pretending to have done homework, using the internet when she wasn't supposed to).  And now she's pulling straight A's in school and is a joy to be around.  The things I think we did that HELPED were  to consistently modeling the behavior we valued, keeping lines of communication open at all times, and never making her feel ashamed or like she was past redemption.  And you know what? I'm so glad all that happened in middle school, when the stakes are so much lower! The kids that wait til high school or college to rebel? Things can get bad real fast.  

[BlsdMama]

It sounds like he has not had consistent parenting.  I would not blame the child for that. 

 

Never met a kid yet who had completely consistent parents.  ;)  

 

That said, how much structure is in his day - how much of "do  this" does he have?  Because  a kid who is non-compliant definitely needs a lot of practice at it.

I do have a kiddo like this - exact same age.  We did have a neuropsych eval. simply because he is so different than his siblings and because we needed information in order to educate him.  There were multiple issues but we're seeing them across the board - not just impulsive towards one thing (like food) but in all areas.  Is he your oldest?  At the end of the day, the neuropsych eval was helpful because then I could address things differently and build in more structure, constant supervision, etc.  However, you have to decide how you would respond to some kind of eval that says there is a problem.  Would you let it be a reason for him to get away with things? Would you be less vigilant?  We did.  For a good year after the eval., I was totally rocked.  We never told him the eval excuses but I found myself mentally excusing behaviors.  That's unacceptable.  At the end of the day we must maintain the target - to strive towards raising functional, intentional adults that choose to do the right thing.  His eval doesn't change that.  It might change the outcome, but it doesn't change our striving. Does that make sense? Let's say you have a kiddo that can't do math at a fifth grade level.  You start at where they are and you continuously work.  Might you never get past that fifth grade level?  You might not.  That kiddo might have serious cognition issues you cannot overcome.  But, the not exceeding the goal doesn't change the fact that the work itself was GOOD.  It was worthwhile.  An eval can be a useful tool as long as it is used like a tool, not as an excuse, because there is value in the striving itself, even if the goal is never reached.  

 

Supervision - almost constant

Accountability - for everything

Rules - with predetermined consequences

Work - physical and a rather lot of it

Education - at their level, not overwhelming.  Better 10 minutes of hard, consistent, supervised work than reinforce lazy, dawdling, or resistant behaviours by insisting on 20 minutes of everything and not superivising and correcting consistently.

Lectures - don't let them become too long.  If he has attention issues you've lost him after two minutes.  You're better off making them short and more frequent than long and detailed. That's true of lectures, teaching, etc.  More bite sized chunks.

 

Bottom line?  We don't trust people who cannot be trusted.  It's sad and you want to - but it is a natural consequence and that doesn't change after a week or a month of good behavior.  

[Meriwether]

Yes, this is exactly what I thought as I read the OP's post.

 

1. The electronics, especially the games, would be gone. Just gone. Not with any time limits, but with the understanding that you will be looking at his A-B-Cs -- his Attitudes, Behaviors, and Character traits -- instead of the calendar, to determine if he gets anything back. I would assert my parental authority with this, even to the extent of being a bit heavy-handed, because I think you will get away with this more now than you would in a few years. Don't wait until he's 14. And I agree with a PP that if he's searching incognito, you will want to address the likelihood (possibility?) of porn.

 

2. School work and other expectations would ramp up. For every instance of dawdling or manipulating, I'd pile on more work. I'd stand over him, if necessary, and drive him to finish it respectfully. I agree with Shellydon, I would shut him down (on the manipulation) and make him work.

 

3. Hard physical labor and/or mandatory exercise would become a new and daily requirement. If you can't come up with enough work around your own property, ask at church or in the neighborhood if others need work done. He volunteers his time and labor.

 

4. In regards to cheating/truthfulness/integrity, I suppose my question is, "Why didn't you call him on it when you saw him cheating?" That is, why did you let him get away with it? Call him out on it, expose him in public, if necessary. How embarrassing, to be turned in by your own mother! But if that's what it takes to turn him into an honest person, it's worth it, I think.

 

5. As to hitting his little sister, what were the consequences of him doing that? Losing electronics? How are these -- sibling relationship + electronics -- related in any way? How did losing the electronics serve to build his relationship with and respect for his sister? I think your son needs direct, explicit instruction on this, on how to treat girls and women, and clear expectations for his behavior. How can you link the consequences to the relationship? What will build his love for his sister?

 

6. As to eating on the sofa, what were the consequences of him doing that? Losing electronics? How are these -- disobeying family food rules + electronics -- related in any way? Perhaps you could set clear expectations and consequences for violations. If he eats on the sofa, he forfeits the next meal. So if you see him eating lunch there, he misses supper.

 

7. As to not doing his assigned chores, what were the consequences of him doing that? Losing electronics? How are these -- refusing to do chores + electronics -- related in any way? His consequence for not doing chores immediately, willingly, and thoroughly probably ought to be more chores.

 

IMO, you are over-using the taking away of electronics. Your son just waits you out, but nothing internally changes. He knows you will relent, feel guilty, and give him back those things. The consequences don't really seem to be "felt" much by him. Are they? Your one response is not reaching his heart.

 

So, I think you need to abandon "taking away" as your response. He needs something added -- explicit moral guidance, your disappointment, your outrage, your honesty, your parental courage. He needs you to pour into his soul something from your heart that reaches his heart. HTH.

Exactly this. I'll keep this short since I'm on the Kindle, but I agree with everything Sahamamama said. I have caught one of my kids cheating before. They started that level of work over from the beginning. If I caught them cheating in a situation like you described, they would not have collected a prize. They would have had to admit what they did and apologize. Kids, good kids, do stupid things. I have a responsibility to teach them that some things are absolutely off the table.

[Tsuga]

Never met a kid yet who had completely consistent parents. ;)

 

That said, how much structure is in his day - how much of "do this" does he have? Because a kid who is non-compliant definitely needs a lot of practice at it.

I do have a kiddo like this - exact same age. We did have a neuropsych eval. simply because he is so different than his siblings and because we needed information in order to educate him. There were multiple issues but we're seeing them across the board - not just impulsive towards one thing (like food) but in all areas. Is he your oldest? At the end of the day, the neuropsych eval was helpful because then I could address things differently and build in more structure, constant supervision, etc. However, you have to decide how you would respond to some kind of eval that says there is a problem. Would you let it be a reason for him to get away with things? Would you be less vigilant? We did. For a good year after the eval., I was totally rocked. We never told him the eval excuses but I found myself mentally excusing behaviors. That's unacceptable. At the end of the day we must maintain the target - to strive towards raising functional, intentional adults that choose to do the right thing. His eval doesn't change that. It might change the outcome, but it doesn't change our striving. Does that make sense? Let's say you have a kiddo that can't do math at a fifth grade level. You start at where they are and you continuously work. Might you never get past that fifth grade level? You might not. That kiddo might have serious cognition issues you cannot overcome. But, the not exceeding the goal doesn't change the fact that the work itself was GOOD. It was worthwhile. An eval can be a useful tool as long as it is used like a tool, not as an excuse, because there is value in the striving itself, even if the goal is never reached.

 

Supervision - almost constant

Accountability - for everything

Rules - with predetermined consequences

Work - physical and a rather lot of it

Education - at their level, not overwhelming. Better 10 minutes of hard, consistent, supervised work than reinforce lazy, dawdling, or resistant behaviours by insisting on 20 minutes of everything and not superivising and correcting consistently.

Lectures - don't let them become too long. If he has attention issues you've lost him after two minutes. You're better off making them short and more frequent than long and detailed. That's true of lectures, teaching, etc. More bite sized chunks.

 

Bottom line? We don't trust people who cannot be trusted. It's sad and you want to - but it is a natural consequence and that doesn't change after a week or a month of good behavior.

I can't like this, particularly the end, enough.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We tend to frame responses to stuff like this more positively in our house. To my way of thinking, it is about capacity. It sets kids up for failure when they are required to do things that they don't yet have capacity to do. So providing more structure and accountability is not punitive and shouldn't be done in a punitive way but as loving support. My child on the spectrum with ADD needs a lot of routine in order to be successful.

 

 

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