S/O - Downplaying *hard work* by labeling it "talent"

[Tranquility7]

I started the other thread on being good at something as a child (which I wasn't, but which I am really working hard at helping my kids to be). This is a spin-off thread that occurred to me as I read the replies to that one, and as I encountered various comments from very well-intentioned friends and family over the holidays.

 

As I said in the other thread, I'm not really talented at anything, and never have been. I am reasonably bright and self-motivated, but never worked hard enough to be particularly good at anything. My parents were supportive but uninvolved, and certainly never made me work hard. But now with my kids, I am much more proactive. I require a lot more of them, and I work hard *for* them, and *with* them, to help them accomplish things I never even knew about as a kid.

 

But you know what is funny? Over the holidays friends or family members who don't regularly see my kids would comment to one another (in my hearing, but not with me being in the conversation) about how "talented" my kids were. How they were "so musical" and how learning languages was "so easy for them" and how they were just "so gifted" and how school was just "a breeze" for them. I know they mean well - they really do! - but something about this bothers me.

 

Now, I'm not saying my kids aren't bright. I know they are. But honestly, we work SO HARD!!!!!! And I felt like rather than giving them (and me, lol) praise for working DARN HARD at learning, they shrug it off as the result of natural ability. The reason we accomplish what we do in piano, or Latin, or Chinese, or writing, or history, or whatever, is because we work hard, and we work smart. We review and study and study more and review more. We read and integrate and discuss and read more and discuss more and integrate more. It is not easy for ANY of us.

 

I think the reason it bothers me is twofold:

- First, it ignores our hard work. I don't want to be all about praise (especially for myself!) but I do feel like praise should be given where it is due. Don't praise my child for being "musical", which is completely untrue to begin with, but even if it were true, would be something natural and therefore not worth praising, since he would have been born with it. Who needs to be praised for a natural ability? No one! But hard work? Absolutely! :-)

- Second, it makes people think our accomplishments are "special" and that they couldn't do it themselves, when really what I think is that we haven't really accomplished anything the average person couldn't also accomplish **IF** they were *willing to work hard* and *put the time in*.

 

I think it is totally fine to not be willing to work hard enough to accomplish something. Everyone has different priorities, and there are plenty of areas where we do not accomplish much. We could, but we don't, because we don't bother to spend enough time and effort on it. And so to those who DO accomplish a lot in those areas, we give a hearty, "Well done!" because we know there must be loads of work behind that accomplishment. Isn't there always?!

 

Anyway, this post sounds far more ranty than I mean it. Sorry about that. Sometimes I just find homeschooling, while enjoyable, to be tons of HARD WORK, and right now I'm feeling behind where I want us to be because of the busy holidays, and I guess I just feel like all that hard work is invisible to the world. I'm not sure why I care, but for some reason today I do. Hmmm.

[Rosie_0801]

Sometimes I care about that too. (Stuck in the family court, which is enough to make anyone rant.)

 

Maybe you are naturally talented at bothering. :D

 

 

 

it makes people think our accomplishments are "special" and that they couldn't do it themselves, when really what I think is that we haven't really accomplished anything the average person couldn't also accomplish **IF** they were *willing to work hard* and *put the time in*.

 

Possibly they want to think that. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know what your family members meant with the comments or what anyone else means.  But... I don't think being talented means that one did not work hard at something. 

[frogger]

I remember some little story about a man commenting to a violinist that he would give his life to be able to play like that to which the violinist responded, "I have".

 

That being said to be good at anything requires work- a lot of it. At the same time some kids will work at things three times as hard as others to get to the exact same place so I wouldn't completly throw out talent. My son worked for two years with a very very dedicated teacher on guitar. That teacher would work with him long past the lesson time and my son practiced and practiced but he was never going to be a great guitar player no many how many hours he put in. He accomplished in two years with daily practice what my daughter accomplished in two months with her instrument. She practices way more then her required hour and so yes, it is a lot of work.

 

I assure you there are many mom's working just as hard as you on the learning difficulty threads whose children aren't going to know multiple languages.

 

I do emphasize work over talent though when I encourage children because it's the thing they can control. If a child knows another language you can be sure they worked hard at it. You don't have any idea exacatly how talented they are.

[Carol in Cal.]

Let's face it, it's the style right now among homeschoolers and other educators to focus on effort, but that hasn't caught on in the mainstream of society.  So once again we are ahead of the curve!  Bask on, and let others follow!

[Farrar]

I think I know what you mean. I think there's a way in which offhanded, meant to be supportive comments like that sort of undermine the whole thing. Like, the message is meant to be: "You're good!" but it can easily be read as "If it doesn't come easy, stop trying!" to people who overhear it or as "The work you did was a waste of your time" to the recipients, especially if they're young.

 

On the other hand, I agree with what Sadie said above that hard work without talent doesn't always lead to what you want either. I think there *is* something to be said for having a natural passion, inclination, desire to learn, and ability with something.

 

This strikes me as like giving kids compliments is across the board - fraught with potential pitfalls on all sides.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah I suppose what is annoying is it might feel like they are saying you are all pulling this off because it is easy for you.  Like you'd rather be complemented for the hard work than saying oh doesn't that look shiny, it's so easy for you.

 

It's not easy.  It's a lot of work.

 

 

[frogger]

Oh and if think your work is invisible imagine spending hours and hours trying to get a child to do what other children do in a few minutes or pick up on their own and then getting judged for not doing a good job on top of that.

 

I do understand your frustration though. Very few people take into consideration what others have sacrificed for what they have whether it's money, a nice lawn, or a great education. For others it just falls out of the sky and it didn't fall out of the sky for them so it's just impossible.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh and if think your work is invisible imagine spending hours and hours trying to get a child to do what other children do in a few minutes or pick up on their own and then getting judged for not doing a good job on top of that.

 

I do understand your frustration though. Very few people take into consideration what others have sacrificed for what they have whether it's money, a nice lawn, or a great education. For others it just falls out of the sky and it didn't fall out of the sky for them so it's just impossible.

 

So so true.  You make such great points.   (Must be a talent of yours... :laugh: )  No but really.  We often have no real clue how much someone else worked at something.

 

 

[Joker]

I kind of get what you're saying but I very much agree with other posters about many things needing the talent to begin with. Youngest works hard at her art and spends a lot of time on it. I couldn't do what she does no matter how hard I tried. I've known many who work extremely hard in different sports but don't have the talent and natural ability to go far.

 

Oldest does get bothered sometimes when people brush off her academic success by just saying she's smart. She has to work harder at it than many others.

[Rosie_0801]

Oh and if think your work is invisible imagine spending hours and hours trying to get a child to do what other children do in a few minutes or pick up on their own and then getting judged for not doing a good job on top of that.

 

I do understand your frustration though. Very few people take into consideration what others have sacrificed for what they have whether it's money, a nice lawn, or a great education. For others it just falls out of the sky and it didn't fall out of the sky for them so it's just impossible.

 

Oh yeah. "Do more maths," I'm told. It takes three programs, hours each week of mathsy board games, plus other supplements to get the results we get. How much more maths do you really think the girl's brain is going to be able to absorb? It's so stupid I have to laugh. So I promise to do more maths, leaving off the rest of the sentence, which is "than you think we do." It's no great concession, since we *already are!*

Edited December 29, 2015 by Rosie_0801

[KSinNS]

That's always a tough one. We get that all the time, especially with music, and the kids have some "talent" whatever that means, but they work really hard. A mom in our violin group was commenting on how talented S was after a performance, and how effortless it sounded. I reassured her that the "effortless" sound came from many, many, many hours of practice. When S himself heard what she said, he said " does she know how effortful that was at home?" And he's right. I think it's easier to think talent rather than hard work (and efficient work) is all it takes. But the very best, and the very good, work incredibly hard to get there, certainly in in sports and music, and I suspect in most things (except possibly for some kids in school). I think we all find it frustrating, but knowing how to work, and not being afraid is a blessing. The stories I could tell about people failing for the first time in their lives at a very high academic level (post grad and professions) because they never learned to study. It's much easier to learn at this age.

 

I heard a Suzuki talk about "is your child gifted" which I struggle with because my kids are not, and have learning challenges, but most of their violin buddies are quite gifted, and have the papers to prove it. The talk argued that your kid is gifted, because you have gifted that with your time and love to teach them the violin (or whatever really) and all the skills like hard work, diligence, and patience that goes with that. So I do hold on to that.

[lllll]

nm

Edited December 30, 2015 by w11

[Garga]

I was going to write something about this on the original thread.

 

I was going to write that I was pretty good at the piano and that my teacher said I had "talent" but I realize now I didn't.  I just practiced constantly.  Constantly.

 

Because now as an adult, I realize I am not musically inclined in reality.  It just sounded that way because I played on that piano for 2-3 hours a day.  My teacher probably didn't have many students like that, or if she did she thought we were the talented ones.  Sure, she might have had students with natural ability, but I know for a fact in my case it was just lots of practice and hard work.

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's always a tough one. We get that all the time, especially with music, and the kids have some "talent" whatever that means, but they work really hard. A mom in our violin group was commenting on how talented S was after a performance, and how effortless it sounded. I reassured her that the "effortless" sound came from many, many, many hours of practice. When S himself heard what she said, he said " does she know how effortful that was at home?" And he's right. I think it's easier to think talent rather than hard work (and efficient work) is all it takes. But the very best, and the very good, work incredibly hard to get there, certainly in in sports and music, and I suspect in most things (except possibly for some kids in school). I think we all find it frustrating, but knowing how to work, and not being afraid is a blessing. The stories I could tell about people failing for the first time in their lives at a very high academic level (post grad and professions) because they never learned to study. It's much easier to learn at this age.

 

I heard a Suzuki talk about "is your child gifted" which I struggle with because my kids are not, and have learning challenges, but most of their violin buddies are quite gifted, and have the papers to prove it. The talk argued that your kid is gifted, because you have gifted that with your time and love to teach them the violin (or whatever really) and all the skills like hard work, diligence, and patience that goes with that. So I do hold on to that.

 

I think there are many reasons to do something like learning a musical instrument other than developing talent that will be recognized.  It's an activity that could bring them enjoyment through their entire life.  It is just downright something fun to do.  I did not have that opportunity as a child.  I learned as an adult and I really love it just for the sake of enjoyment. 

 

I don't know why we tend towards turning everything into a competition or that we go into learning new things with the hopes of being exceptional.  Sometimes it's just great that we get the opportunity to do something or try something. 

[KSinNS]

And sometimes all the work in the world won't make something easy. But I do believe that attitude of hard work can be of benefit, even if the skill never comes or only to a less advanced level. S still can't swim well despite many years of hard work, but the progress he has made is remarkable, and he is ready to keep working, even when it gets really tough. And he is safer near deep water, which he was not two years ago.

[Artichoke]

I hear you OP.    When our third son graduated, he had earned several high profile awards and scholarships.  It would aggravate me to no end when folks would congratulate him by saying something like  "You're so smart.  Of course you got them. "    Yes, there's no denying his abilities; but darn it,  he worked his hiney off for what he achieved, especially for service awards.  Yes, they meant well, but it hurt ds sometimes when his hard work wasn't recognized.  He got to the point that he'd rather folks not congratulate him. I'm sure no one meant any harm, but it sure would have been nice if someone had said something about his hard work.  

Edited December 29, 2015 by Artichoke

[frogger]

So so true. You make such great points. (Must be a talent of yours... :laugh: ) No but really. We often have no real clue how much someone else worked at something.

You don't know how hard I practice at making my point on the internet.

 

Not enough to know how to put a ROTFL emoji on a post from my phone. Obviously I need more practice.

[Sk8ermaiden]

DD gets this about sports, and it does bug. Her gymnastics coach works those girls as if they were tiny marines. But it's true that others have no idea how much hard work she has put in to be so strong. Sometimes I smile and nod and sometimes I mention the time she's put in. The important thing is we always emphasize her hard work when we are talking to her. All those articles about emphasizing hard work being much more beneficial than compliments on intelligence or talent...

[maize]

It's frustrating the other direction too--when people whose kids started with innate ability and advanced through hard work talk as if any kid could be where their kids are if they only put in the work. Hearing that is painful to the ones who do work just as hard and sometimes harder--but started out without exactly the right underlying abilities.

 

I do think that it is hard work not talent that deserves praise, but we need to also acknowledge that talent plays a not insignificant role in success. Also opportunities and resources.

[KSinNS]

Can't quote, but I couldn't agree more about doing something just for the joy of doing it. Competition is shockingly hard to avoid, though, in kid's activities. Our musicprogram is sedate compared to most, but even so, the competition gets really brutal. Which is silly, because it's violin for the under 12 set. And none of these kids are the next Sarah Chang. The kids seem to have more sense than some of the adults, which is good.

[lea_lpz]

I totally get what you are saying and it drives me batty. My mother is always saying "school is easy for you. You just get it and that's that. You're naturally smart, yada, yada, yada, but it's so hard for me." And if I didn't do exceptionally, as in strait A's in competitive university or grad school, it was because I "slacked off" because "it was so easy for me so of course I should have perfect grades."

 

You know because taking AP and Honor classes in high school without much guidance and only my own initiative since my parents didn't go to college was so easy, as was studying and signing up for my PSAT / SAT tests, applying to competitive colleges without any help other than free work shops at my community college or making good grades. Graduating from Berkeley, getting into grad school, all while being a new mom = easy!

[lllll]

nm

Edited December 30, 2015 by w11

[Arcadia]

Locally many people are talking about the growth mindset. Kids get praised for effort when the kid who didn't put in any effort would have to politely keep his/her mouth shut because it might be seen as bragging otherwise.

My FIL just asked my hubby a few days ago how much work my kids put in for their cello recital. They only put in 10mins per day so what effort is there to praise.

 

ETA:

Whether someone use the word "effort" or "talent", the person is probably trying to be polite and not trying to downplay anybody's hard work.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Arcadia

[Dmmetler]

It's frustrating the other direction too--when people whose kids started with innate ability and advanced through hard work talk as if any kid could be where their kids are if they only put in the work. Hearing that is painful to the ones who do work just as hard and sometimes harder--but started out without exactly the right underlying abilities.

 

I do think that it is hard work not talent that deserves praise, but we need to also acknowledge that talent plays a not insignificant role in success. Also opportunities and resources.

That last is key. Often getting resources and opportunities comes down to sheer, complete, utter luck. In my DD's case, she has the right combination of natural ability and personality traits and sheer cussed effort to do well at her chosen area of interest, but let's face it-if she hadn't gotten connected with a couple of people in some pretty lofty circles, who could get DD into opportunities normally not offered to kids before upper level undergraduate work starting at age 8, she wouldn't be where she is at age 11. Being in the right place at the right time-where you can get excellent instruction, where the opportunities exist, and having the financial and familial resources to take advantage of those opportunities, really makes a difference in allowing an individual to take advantage of their skills-and allows effort to be focused much more finely to allow success.

[maize]

There's also this: the ability to sustain attention and effort is itself a talent that not everyone comes equipped with. 

 

It's easy for people who have that ability to denigrate those with less natural executive function capacity for their lack of hard work and effort, when what looks like not much effort from the outside may actually be a lot of effort for that person.

 

It's natural to take credit for our own successes, and easy to minimize the success of others by ascribing it primarily to natural ability and talent. The reality is usually quite complex and comparisons between people are usually flawed because of our inability to take into account all variables.

[elmerRex]

I think the need to praise something is cultural/social. It is difficult to know how someone arrived where they are at and our past-actions are invisible to those who aren't around while we are taking them.

 

If you witness a performance of beautiful music, you will be distracted by the beautiful music and probably not think about how the musician got to that level. You can be eager to "thank" the musician by complimenting them and you may not have the mind to think about how they really got there. Maybe you knew people who were just naturally talented at a thing, and so you assume anyone who performs in a way that reminds you of them is also naturally good.

 

You can teach your kids reply to compliments constructively.

 

"Wow, you are so good at math!"

"Thank you sir, I am so proud that my work has paid off"

"You play that song so well."

"Thank you ma'am. My dad helped me practice for weeks."

"You are so good at this game! You run so fast!"

"Thank you sir, I love playing this so much, that the daily practice feels like play!"

 

[Arcadia]

Praising effort is a double edged sword. My dad and brother are very slow workers. Praising their effort is like an unintentional reminder to them of how much harder they have to work. My brother was so discouraged/disheartened as a teen.

 

DS10 while slow is still within the norm for his age group so it is not as discouraging for him to be praised for effort.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Arcadia

[abacus2]

I think it can go wrong either way because you never know what combination of talent and hard work went into something. When I was a kid, I frequently got complemented on all my hard work in academics when really I worked less than a huge percentage of the students because the thing in question I already knew or it came easily to me. My oldest daughter has put a lot of work into music and can play multiple instruments beautifully and sing nicely. This did not come very naturally to her. My youngest (age 6) sang a beautiful solo recently at church. Someone asked me how I taught her to sing. She has always known how to sing; I worry about her imitating me when I sing because I know I make mistakes and have some poor technique that I don't want her to pick up.

[Another Lynn]

Is the flip side of this "imposter syndrome?"  When you receive all kinds of praise and think "Gee, it's a good thing I got so lucky with this ____________ (test, performance, competition, whatever), because I really didn't work as hard as I should have."

[IsabelC]

That is an interesting topic. I can understand your feelings because the assumption that your kids are 'naturals' at stuff does, however unintentionally, downplay the sheer amount of effort you/they have expended. I would agree with those people who say that 'talent' is of minor significance in most cases, and that working both hard and smart is the main predictor of success at any endeavor (there are plenty of 'talented' people who don't succeed in the long term because they rely on talent alone). However, I still think there is such a thing as natural aptitude, and therefore the reverse mistake is also possible. (I found that certain things came very easily to me as a child, and I remember being praised because I 'must have done lots of practice' when in fact I hadn't done much work at all, but was just finding the music simple to master. And it certainly didn't do me any good to garner praise for work I hadn't put in.) Also there are people who can work very hard and still be limited in what they can achieve, in which case it is unkind to assume that because their 'output' isn't great, they haven't been working. Perhaps most people could do as 'well' as your dc if they worked at it, but some children couldn't. You simply cannot know why my kids aren't as good at [insert activity] as your kids are. Maybe it's because we're not working hard, but there are lots of other possible reasons.

Maybe one of the reasons that praise in general is problematic is that unless you are very close to a person, you aren't going to know exactly how difficult something is for them to achieve, so it would be safer to praise hard work only when you know the person has worked hard. Praise is by definition a form of judgement, and most people most of the time do far more judging than is appropriate. Why can't people restrict themselves to appreciating rather than judging ('I enjoyed listening to you play', 'I love the colors you used in your painting', 'I was really interested to read your essay' etc - state how the speaker feels instead of delivering a verdict on how talented/hardworking the child might be).

Edited December 29, 2015 by IsabelC

[frogger]

Praising effort is a double edged sword. My dad and brother are very slow workers. Praising their effort is like an unintentional reminder to them of how much harder they have to work. My brother was so discouraged/disheartened as a teen.

 

DS10 while slow is still within the norm for his age group so it is not as discouraging for him to be praised for effort.

 

Ouch

[maize]

I also think the word talent can be used to denote a level of competence achieved and not just innate ability; I'm not sure everyone who says "that child is so talented at music" means it in the sense of "music is so easy for them"; people do use that phrase more in the sense of "that child is a very accomplished musician".

 

And sometimes it's just a generic form of praise because praise is expected in our society for children who perform at something, and there is no more to read into it than "this person is trying to be polite." :)

 

At least, that's how I interpret it when people tell me how talented my kids are after a musical performance; they're actually rather mediocre among child musicians ;) I just smile and say thank you because that is the accepted social response to the expected social praise.

Edited December 29, 2015 by maize

[EKS]

This is the flip side of a view that I see expressed a lot in gifted groups, which is that if the person has worked hard to achieve what they have, he or she can't be gifted.  It's like people think it can only be one thing or the other.  

[MBM]

Tranquility, Carol Dweck has written about your concerns in her book Mindset. Here's her website:

 

http://mindsetonline.com/whatisit/about/

 

An interesting article about the psychology of learning:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html?_r=0

 

[EmilyGF]

I really like a basketball analogy I heard about talent vs. hard work.

 

A really short guy who plays basketball can practice really hard but won't get the same return a tall guy gets who practices really hard. Yet, the really short guy who practices intensely will be better than a tall guy who loafs around and doesn't exercise. So talent (or a natural bent in a direction) makes hard work pay off more, yet hard work is necessary even for the most talented to be successful.

 

Emily

[maize]

I really like a basketball analogy I heard about talent vs. hard work.

 

A really short guy who plays basketball can practice really hard but won't get the same return a tall guy gets who practices really hard. Yet, the really short guy who practices intensely will be better than a tall guy who loafs around and doesn't exercise. So talent (or a natural bent in a direction) makes hard work pay off more, yet hard work is necessary even for the most talented to be successful.

 

Emily

 

That is a good analogy.

 

Too bad not all inherent abilities are as obvious as height ;) (though maybe it is better that way).

 

There are a couple of sisters I teach violin to. The older one cares more and practices more, but really struggles--nothing comes easily to her, from holding the bow to hearing intonation to reading music; she as to fight for every inch of ground she gains.

 

The younger sister practices less, cares less, and plays better. Life can be tough that way sometimes.

 

Though sometimes having to struggle is also an advantage; this is what I tell my twelve year old whose passion is Irish dance. It does not come easily to her, she works twice as hard for half the results some others in the studio attain. Her goal is eventually to have her own studio and teach, and we talk sometimes about how having to really struggle and push to gain a skill can make a person a better teacher. The ones things just come to, they watch someone else and can just imitate--they can be at a loss when it comes to teaching someone that things don't come so easily to.

[Alice]

I try to praise my kids for their hard work and for what I see as their character but I also help them to see that they should feel grateful for whatever natural talents they have. One of my kids is a better swimmer than the other one. That is almost all work and effort because the one who isn't as good is probably more naturally athletic. When the one who isn't as good makes comments about his brother being faster, I remind him that his brother practices much more and works really hard because he loves swimming. On the other hand, my son who is a good swimmer is not at all one of the best for is age group. He knows that he could work as hard as he could but will likely never be at the top of the top...because of things like height, size, natural ability. 

 

School was always very easy for me. I did work hard but the reality was that it was easier for me than others. I read fast, I'm a good test taker and I have a good memory. Those are all things that get you far in pre-med and medical school. There were people I knew that struggled that worked way harder than I did. At the same time, I remember having a fellow student in a really tough genetics class ask me what my secret was. I was kind of flustered (mostly because he was older and really good looking) and I kind of mumbled "Um, I study." Because I did work really hard in that class and there wasn't any other secret formula to doing well. 

 

I am tone-deaf and I can tell you without any doubt that no amount of practice could turn me into a musician. 

 

We always try to emphasize working to your own best ability and trying your hardest and realizing that there is going to be a mix of talent, effort and luck involved in any accomplishment or success. 

 

 

[maize]

So I've talked a lot on this thread and find I want to further explore the topics that have come up. I started a spin-off thread here:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/581418-so-innate-abilities-growth-mindset-hard-work-opportunity-and-achievement/

[BooksandBoys]

This is a topic of interest to me because I see the interaction of talent and hard work so clearly in my kids. My oldest has apraxia, which is a disorder of motor planning, but he's extremely determined (his talent). He generally meets all motor milestones in time (but barely!), but the sheer effort he puts into can be astonishing. For example, he rode his bike every single spring, summer, and fall day the years he was four, five, and six, finally mastering the skill at six. That's a typical age to ride a bike without training wheels. The difference is that most kids practice very little to achieve such a skill at that age. In contrast, his younger brother, a naturally athletic and physically talented child, practiced three times the summer he was four and was ready to ride without training wheels. My eldest practiced the monkey bars every chance he got for two years, mastering them the summer he was seven. His best friend tried them twice the summer he was six, having never attempted them before, and figured them out. But because my eldest works so hard, he can do what most kids do, only looking abut clumsy about it, so his work is unnoticed.

 

My eldest is also very good at math. The things he can do with numbers are a delight. He's worked hard at this talent, devoting an hour or two a day to math five days a week or more since he was five, He is often complimented on the "talent" but never the effort. If he didn't have severe ADHD, that hour would be much more effective, but even so, he works hard at it and it shows in his accomplishments.

But, he couldn't remember how to write the letters of the alphabet or his numbers until he was seven, despite daily, targeted instruction for two years. One day about a year ago, his pediatrician, who already rather mistrusts homeschooling, commented that he was "very mathematically talented" then advised me to make sure I taught him to write because it was "clear" I hadn't done that yet. Indeed, dear Doctor.

 

So, OP, I hear you. Effort is often unseen and unacknowledged, whether because the child's talents (even if that's just being naturally focused like I am rather than severely ADHD like my eldest is) allow them to succeed with hard work, or because that effort helps them keep up with the norm, or because the effort isn't enough and everyone worries that the homeschooling mom is failing her child. :-) :-) :-)

[Kuovonne]

Here's what I believe:

- talent increases achievement

- effort increases achievement

- interest increases effort, which increases achievement

- access to instruction and opportunities can increase interest and ability to put in effort

 

If you do not have talent ...

Don't expect the high achievement that you see in others who have talent.

You must work harder than others for the same achievement.

It is frustrating to see people with natural talent achieve more when you work harder.

You are more likely to give up, which is okay sometimes but not in others.

If you have interest, you will be more driven to work and can have high achievement.

 

If you have natural talent ...

If you work hard, people will understimate that work, *and* you will underestimate your talent.

If you aren't interested, you can coast by on your talent, and people will think you are wasting your gift.

 

People who say that you can achieve anything if you work hard enough are gravely mistaken.

 

It really sucks when you have no natural talent and no interest in a required subject.

You will not want to put in the effort, and even if you put in the effort, your achievement will be low.

Your teacher/mom will bang her head in frustration and research a thousand programs (unless she gives up).

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

Maybe one of the reasons that praise in general is problematic is that unless you are very close to a person, you aren't going to know exactly how difficult something is for them to achieve, so it would be safer to praise hard work only when you know the person has worked hard. Praise is by definition a form of judgement, and most people most of the time do far more judging than is appropriate. Why can't people restrict themselves to appreciating rather than judging ('I enjoyed listening to you play', 'I love the colors you used in your painting', 'I was really interested to read your essay' etc - state how the speaker feels instead of delivering a verdict on how talented/hardworking the child might be).

 

This.

 

I always hated being praised as a child, because it made me feel judged. It doesn't matter whether you are praising their talent or their effort; it's still a judgment and feels manipulative. I get the whole effort/mindset movement and I understand the research behind it, but the movement as a whole still feels manipulative to me. Like: here's a new, clever, research-based way to get your child to perform & achieve. 

[MinivanMom]

And, yes, all great achievement is going to be a combination of talent and hard work. It will always take both.

[wintermom]

For the OP, a compliment at being talented can be totally embraced. Your dc may have natural talent at the specific activity, and they also have talent at perseverance to keep working hard to improve specific skills. That determination to keep working hard to get to a higher level of excellence is really hard. 

 

People who compliment your children may or may not actually understand the number of hours and years that went into learning the skills to the level your dc do now, but they do recognize something noteworthy is happening and I would then make the assumption that their comment is supportive. 

Edited December 29, 2015 by wintermom

[wintermom]

 

Anyway, this post sounds far more ranty than I mean it. Sorry about that. Sometimes I just find homeschooling, while enjoyable, to be tons of HARD WORK, and right now I'm feeling behind where I want us to be because of the busy holidays, and I guess I just feel like all that hard work is invisible to the world. I'm not sure why I care, but for some reason today I do. Hmmm.

 

Is it possible that you yourself don't often receive a complement as your children's teacher/coach/motivator? It would be obvious to me, as a mom, all the work that went to help your dc achieve their successes, though you probably don't get many supportive comments about this. It's the way of our society, though. The top athletes make a lot more money than the top coaches make, and are more famous. Being a coach and teacher is a labour of love, and rarely receives the recognition that it deserves.  

[EKS]

Praise is by definition a form of judgement, and most people most of the time do far more judging than is appropriate.

 

I've often thought about how much of the time our children, in particular, are being judged.  It's actually rather mind boggling and depressing--grades, test scores, competitions, try outs, performances.  And those are just the times when judging is formalized.  There is also the constant judging of kids' public behavior both by parents and other caregivers and random strangers.

[Caroline]

I've often thought about how much of the time our children, in particular, are being judged. It's actually rather mind boggling and depressing--grades, test scores, competitions, try outs, performances. And those are just the times when judging is formalized. There is also the constant judging of kids' public behavior both by parents and other caregivers and random strangers.

Absolutely!

[IsabelC]

 

Though sometimes having to struggle is also an advantage; this is what I tell my twelve year old whose passion is Irish dance. It does not come easily to her, she works twice as hard for half the results some others in the studio attain. Her goal is eventually to have her own studio and teach, and we talk sometimes about how having to really struggle and push to gain a skill can make a person a better teacher. The ones things just come to, they watch someone else and can just imitate--they can be at a loss when it comes to teaching someone that things don't come so easily to.

 

The other advantage of having to struggle is that, providing you don't give up, you will learn how to work hard. As a 'gifted' kid, I spent years coasting along, staying near the top of the class academically and musically without having to do much work. Between the ages of about 15 and 18 (it was different for each subject area) I arrived at a point where natural aptitude wasn't enough; I could no longer get high marks by, for example, scanning the books and writing up the three week project the night before it was due, or practising music for 1/3 of the time I was asked to. And because I had never needed to properly manage my time and work diligently, I hadn't developed those skills and I was suddenly a 'gifted underachiever'. It took a supplementary assessment at college (ie being threatened with failure if I didn't get my butt into gear) before I caught up with my study skills.

Edited December 29, 2015 by IsabelC

[HS Mom in NC]

A rare child can play the piano by ear without any training-that's talent.  Most children can learn to play the piano by to ear to some degree with training like they do in Suzuki music lessons-that's hard work. 

Many of the things people attribute to natural talent can be learned through hard work, but there are a few things out there that are in-born talent.  Waaaay too many are in the "it must be natural talent" camp about any high level skill they see demonstrated by a child.  I think it's cultural.  When people haven't been exposed to kids who have had very high quality training from a young age through the teen years, they can't imagine what's possible because they've never seen it up close. I can only comment on American culture, as I have no experience with other cultures, but I think most Americans have really low expectations of their children and they're so child centered that most will end a child's training as soon as a child complains about it.  That's not making a judgement about their intentions (in case anyone is taking that personally) it's just a very different mindset than other subcultures. 

My youngest (an international adoptee) has been enrolled in a martial arts school run by an Asian immigrant and its enrollees are about 80% children of Asian immigrants. Those parents have very different expectations of their children than the parents at the local marital arts school without Asian immigrant instructors or Asian immigrant parents we won 2 free classes to and some of the parents here who have posted on threads about the norms in martial arts schools. I also have experience in Suzuki music instruction, also Asian in its origins and traditional American music teacher classes. The mindsets of the typical parent in each of those situations are from completely different planets, and no, I'm not talking about Tiger moms.  Tiger moms are a subset of Asian immigrant parents.  I'm talking about typical Asian immigrant parents.

As a whole, I would say the typical non-Asian parent in the US feels little to mild motivation to see their child master a sport, instrument, art, etc. They feel little, if any, responsibility to make sure the child practices correctly at home on a daily basis.  I would say the typical Asian immigrant parent is exactly the opposite.  The non-Asian parents care that a child likes the activity.  The Asian immigrant parent cares that the child is learning a discipline which is valuable in and of itself, outside of any pleasure the child is having from the activity. It's all about cultural values.

[tm919]

OP, it's not just hard work and effort that add up to accomplishment; there absolutely IS a bit of innate ability/talent that plays into the equation. If it were just a matter of hard work and effort, then my mentally retarded 12yo son would be able to read and know his addition facts by now. Trust me, we both work VERY hard and expend a LOT of time on is academics. Obviously, what's missing for him is innate ability.

 

I can understand your frustration when only one side if the see-saw is recognized (that of ability/talent) whereas the other side is ignored (that of hard work), but don't be blind to the fact that it absolutely does entail BOTH parts and not just one to balance the see-saw.

This is such a great point. My older daughter is a kid to whom academics come easily. She doesn't see herself as "smart" -- quite the contrary, she has always thought she's just not that bright. I had always praised her effort, not her innate brains; other kids think of themselves as smart but she never has.

 

Then, in school around age 4 (she started going to a Montessori from age 2.9) she had a HORRIBLE month when she just could not understand why everyone couldn't do the same "with effort." She believed that 5 year old who couldn't read was just not trying and told her "it's easy if you try." Total backfire of the "don't tell your kid they're smart." She was honestly being HORRID without knowing it. The other kid was devastated.

 

It's a hard balance. I still haven't mastered it and probably won't.

Edited December 29, 2015 by tm919