"Birth Order" theory question

[bolt.]

In my vague exposure to ideas of how birth order shapes personalities, I've generally gained the idea that youngest children are often "babied" for longer than their sibs, and that "more is expected" of a firstborn.

 

In my musings, I'm wondering if I actually do that (unconsciously) or if, maybe, I'm doing something else because I'm just kinda strange.

 

With my two kids, it's convenient for me to have very similar expectations for both of them -- it's just simpler that way. There are 3 years between them, but my younger is often expected to "live up to" what I expect of the older (unless she clearly can't). Similarly, I often miss on how I might be wiser to "expect more" of the older one, if it was just her and I (because I'm automatically thinking in terms that are reasonable for both my kids).

 

Is this also a factor in birth order theories? Were any of you raised with this version of family dynamics over the other (possibly?) more conventional version? How did it play out?

 

Ie: were you kept to a similar routine, similar boundaries, similar permissions, similar behaviour rules, similar chore expectations -- as a sib 3-ish years your senior or junior?

[Liz CA]

In some cases it can lead to resentment, especially if expectations are similar but privileges are not.

[Tess in the Burbs]

i was the oldest and my sister got to do almost everything I did even though 2 years younger.  

 

And while we kept our kids bedtimes individually for a long time, my kids now are pretty much treated the same in all areas.  I might give my son 15 min more time up before bed, but really, my younger is very mature and she deserves all the privileges that her brother has.  Really, if I did it on behavior, he would rarely have any privileges. I never thought we would treat them as one, but the older is so immature, and my younger is so very mature.  She seems older.  And most people think she is older.  As such, she is treated like an older child. 

 

I should add...It did bother me as a kid my sister got things when I did.  A phone for my room.  Week at camp.  She got away with a lot of stuff I never did.  I think it's normal in how the parents react to a first kid vs a second kid.  

[gardenmom5]

My sister was babied. She was constantly bailed out of some pretty bad choices. Given lots of money. was the responsible one who didn't cause trouble.

 

She's oldest. I'm youngest. I resented her alot.

[Carrie12345]

Yes and no in our house.

 

The baby gets away with a LOT of stuff and is fawned over by everyone but the 8yo.  That said, he's been getting his own breakfast and lunch for ages.  He's known how to entertain himself for good chunks of time since forever.  I've been sending him out to play in the woods and rocks with just his brother probably since before he was 3.  He's very confident and independent, even though we still cuddle and jokingly baby talk and tell him he's our baby.

 

My oldest-oldest is rarely here and busy with college and work.  I've always expected a lot of him academically, but not so much on the family side.  I can't say for certain whether that's due to personality or the fact that he's split time between two households most of his life.

 

I do expect a bit more from my at-home oldest than I did of her brother, but not more than I expect of her sister (1 year younger.)  However, she meets my expectations more consistently than her sister does.

 

My parents had pretty high expectations of me, compared to those I have for my kids.  I drove them nuts with my disobedience and I feel like I was a big disappointment to them.  But then my sisters grew up and I turned out the most stable (which is hysterical, but all things are relative, right?)  So they're over it.

[Word Nerd]

i was the oldest and my sister got to do almost everything I did even though 2 years younger.  

 

This was my experience. I had to wait until I was age __ to get my ears pierced or whatever, and my sister would get to do it only a few months after that or at the same time I did.

[mommymilkies]

My siblings are far younger than me, and they had way different expectations and privileges. My husband, though, had very few expectations and very few responsibilities.  Most of the chores and such were pushed onto his sister.  I assume because she was the girl so could do "girly" chores, but that's just my observance. ;)

[UCF612]

My boys are 2 years apart and I can see ways I "baby" the younger one and push my older one.  I really try to keep a check on it though.   I am the youngest in my family and often things I do with/for/to my youngest are based on my memory of being the youngest.  My mom was the oldest and that came into play a lot in growing up.  When she was a kid her younger brothers could do things at a younger age than she had been allowed (so they all did it at the same time regardless of age at the time).  She was a stickler that I had to be whatever age my sister had been to do things.  I HATED that because some things just needed to be done then and not later when I aged.  That makes no sense I'm sure!  For example, Glamour Shots were huge in my area for awhile.  My sister got shots done but I wasn't allowed, I was told I had to be _ age because that's how old my sister was.  Well by the time I was that age GS were not an in thing to do and I didn't want them (now I'm thankful not to have those floating around!) but at the time I was really upset.  So anyhow, I try to keep both perspectives in mind when dealing with my kids.  I try to think about what the given situation is and not have a blanket rule about things.  

 

As far as chores, I'm probably unfair there as I expect equal work.  My boys are VERY similar in ability when it comes to things like that.  For school, I expect more out of my 3rd grader than my 1st grader.  That's based on age and ability.

[jewellsmommy]

We tie privileges to the level of responsibility that the child is capable of, not to age. Dd was allowed to have a personal laptop at age 11 (regulated internet access). Ds has not been allowed this and is now 12. But, she takes care of all of her electronics and respects boundaries without trying to get around them. Ds, unfortunately, has intentionally broken many electronic devices because he was angry or "done with it." He also misuses his devices. So he only has access when he is watched in a common room. It makes no sense to give him privileges that he can't handle. It will only enable him to get into trouble.

 

Dd got to get her ears pierced when we were confident that she could care for her ears and not lose earrings due to carelessness. So far this sort of philosophy has served us well.

[MomtoCandJ]

I do expect more out of dd1 than dd2 but they are 5 years apart. Dd1 thinks I do more with dd2 but I did do the same with her when she was that little (actually I think dd1 did more because I worked and she went with me and she got more daddy time than dd2 because of me working). But different circumstances, different times, different kids.

As far as me growing up... I was the oldest and only girl so I was treated different than my younger brothers. I do think my youngest brother was babied a bit but he was born just before our maternal grandma died and was born on her birthday, and he was still in high school when my dad passed away. my middle brother it seems is babied now but he's the only one that still lives by mom and does need the most help as he is a single dad of 3 kids and 2 of the 3 are special needs. Same thing... Different times, different circumstances and different kids.

[Anne in CA]

My oldest is seven years older than her younger brother and twelve years older than her younger sister and was very upset that she was expected to eat more veggies than them, or do chores that they didn't have to do, lol. She thought she should not have to do anything they didn't.

 

I do think that my mother expected too much of me as the oldest. I made sure to never expect my oldest to do all the stuff I did, lol.

[Guest]

My oldest two are treated identically at this point. They're so close in age and equally competent, albeit in different areas. I can be harder on my oldest (her personality) and try not to, and I try to give her preference on small things since she is the oldest, but relaiaficsg it shakes out that 'the girls' are treated the same.

 

I hope they don't resent me for it, but realistically they're going to resent me for *something* and this is as good as any other.

[SKL]

I remember hearing about birth order theories when I was young.  The majority were complete bunk if my family was any indication.  :P  I really think people are born with a personality and there isn't too much parents can do about it, for better or worse.

 

My parents had six kids.  My mom was the boss of us for the most part, and she expected more out of me (#3) mainly because it wasn't hard to make me comply.  I was the oldest daughter, so that may have played a part.  Yes, my oldest brother was more outgoing than #2, but I'm pretty sure #2 is on the spectrum.  My youngest sister was the most confident and outgoing of all of us, and certainly not the dumbest (debunking another theory of the day).

 

My kids are almost the same age.  I try to make things "fair."  But they are so different.  Take neatness for example.  One of my kids is an incurable slob.  The other keeps things fairly neat with no effort.  I could make a similar comparison of just about anything.  I guess I should be thankful that each of them is on the "better" side in some areas, and in the "worse" side in others.  So I guess it is fair in that sense.

[SKL]

Oh then there is my sister, who (at least in the observation of me & other family members) seems to expect more of her younger daughter than her older daughter.  But again, this is probably because the younger daughter is capable of more in some respects.  I don't think my sister sees this, though.

[kewb]

From my own family growing up as the baby no one expects much from me.

My own kids, I tried not to have that dynamic but I find I do expect more from my oldest.

[bettyandbob]

It should be by individual needs/development. My oldest was permitted to play in our tiny front yard at 4 while I worked in the kitchen. There was a window in the kitchen facing the yard. Dd could not be out of arms reach until 7. She sought every opportunity to disappear and sought all forms of danger. I knew that. Privileges were based on those observations. When they got jus a little older dd became the responsible one. If we went out, I could count on her at 11 to make sure her younger brother was safe and went to bed on time. Meanwhile her older brother was 14. The only thing I could count on is he would read alone in his room and not notice what his siblings were doing. Again, privilege was based on the observations.

 

Expectations in our house were never based solely on age.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I don't do the traditional "high expectations" for oldest, "baby" the youngest either.  First-they are only 2 years apart, Second- DS14- while mature is a scatter-brain (not as much anymore) and DD12- is very mature and organized. Third- I've seen the negative effects of treating children significantly different and don't want that for my children.  I try to accommodate each child depending on their needs and personalities.

 

 

 I was the oldest and was expected to be another parent to the younger kids.  My middle sister was pretty, talented, outgoing, and the squeaky wheel so she got all the attention.  My youngest sister was definitely babied but not spoiled. 

[DawnM]

I was an only so I can't comment too much on that, but I can tell you that in my husband's family the birth order was not typical.  DH is 2nd and acts far more like an oldest in a traditional type setting.  The baby was treated like the baby, but the girl (middle) was coddled as well.

 

In my own family, my oldest has LDs and Asperger's and isn't a typical 1st born.  My youngest is the go-getter and the uber mature and responsible one, and acts far more like a typical first born.

I take it all with a grain of salt.

[MaeFlowers]

Birth order theory is more complicated than simply oldest, middle, youngest. Gender and spacing can flip dynamics. For example, if the oldest is male but the second is female and they are close in age, they tend to flip typical roles. The girl will be the most responsible and have the most expected of her. Plus, when children are more than six years apart (without a sibling in between), they take on the traits of onlies. It's all pretty interesting, actually.

I am an only so I can't say much about my experiences and my children are technical onlies because they are so far apart. However, I think I baby my dd far less than I did ds but at the same time am more lax about things. It's hard to treat them the same because they are absolutely the antithesis of one another!

[Excelsior! Academy]

Yes.  I had divorced parents and due to step-siblings was the oldest at one household and the youngest at the other.  I resented how much my youngest sister was allowed to do and feel I paved the way for her.  At the other household, it seemed like the precedent was set with the older siblings and there was no changing the precedence per different circumstances.

 

We try avoid the birth order trap, however the oldest child(ren) will always be the guinea pigs.  As we change and grow in our parenting our choices, hopefully, reflect that change.  

 

It is easy to feel the older children are older than they are.  Even when a child is two or three and that first younger sibling is brought home the oldest child can *seem* soooo much older.  When you are a newer parent, you don't always know clear guidelines and expectations for each age and stage.  Heck, I am still learning how to parent a newly young adult.  Give yourself grace and try the best with the knowledge you have, it is all any of us can do.

[MaeFlowers]

Oh, and three years apart was deemed the perfect spacing based on the theory.

[Guest]

My understanding of borth order theory is that the firstborn has adults as their model, so their behavior is most often more responsible, careful, well-thought out, etc. It isn't about parental expectations. It's not necessarily that people expect their firstborn to have their act together. It's that the child has little modeling by children. Younger children have siblings as a model for much of their behavior.

[SKL]

I do remember resenting the times when my sister got what I'd waited for because she threw a tantrum or whatever.  I did stop resenting this at some point early in my adult life.  ;)  (These were not super important things in the grand scheme.)  Kids are silly sometimes, and I don't think we need to cater to their whims just because they might resent us if we don't.

[Greta]

I'm not sure how much birth order plays a role, but I do think that if a parent is thoughtful and makes an attempt at being fair-minded (which you obviously are doing!) then it will probably work out just fine for all of the kids.

 

And when I say fair, I don't mean that the exact same things have to happen at the exact same ages with each child, but that there is some kind of system in place where privileges and freedoms are given in proportion to responsibilities and expectations. That was not the case in my home when I was growing up, and it did create problems.

[Tsuga]

My mom was equally strict with both of us and neither of us got more than the other one. I've asked my sister if she agrees and she feels it was fair (she is younger).

 

I know my little one gets spoiled by siblings. Whereas the other kids get told to quit whining, when the littlest one whines, the older kids will get her stuff to shut her up!!! I"m like... no! Don't do that! She doesn't get to whine for milk! Who is going to put this kid up when she can't get a job because she's lazy?

 

Luckily, a few discussions on that has stopped it mostly.

 

We have certain age cutoffs and responsibility cutoffs so I do hope we aren't spoiling the 6 year old who is growing up as the youngest of four. Like, you can't have an American Girl Doll (the grandparent asked to buy) until you stop cutting your dollies' hair because that's ridiculously expensive. Or you can't have your ears pierced until you're nine. You can have all the ice cream you can earn by doing the same chores as everyone else. You can walk with the group to the 7-11 for a Slurpee when you can play with your friends a whole day without running home crying because "it's not faaaaaaaaaaiiiiir!"

 

And so on.

 

 

 

 

 I had divorced parents and due to step-siblings was the oldest at one household and the youngest at the other.  I resented how much my youngest sister was allowed to do and feel I paved the way for her.  At the other household, it seemed like the precedent was set with the older siblings and there was no changing the precedence per different circumstances.

 

To be honest, I think it's interesting that you felt like the typical "victim of being the oldest" in one home and they typical "victim of being the youngest" in the other, and even as an adult you still feel like you got the short end of the stick. Many oldest kids feel the youngest was spoiled and youngest kids feel that the oldest set the precedent and they aren't treated as an individual. This is extremely common. Funny how all children feel they are getting the short end of the stick... no matter what. :)

 

Do you think there's any chance that maybe it just seemed unfair to you because you were a child and like all children, self-centered, and maybe it actually wasn't so uniformly unfair to you, personally, no matter where you ended up in the birth order? Or do you think they really just didn't pay much attention to you and didn't notice the situation you were in? Like they really favored the oldest when you were the youngest, but the youngest when you were the oldest?

[momma2three]

My understanding of borth order theory is that the firstborn has adults as their model, so their behavior is most often more responsible, careful, well-thought out, etc. It isn't about parental expectations. It's not necessarily that people expect their firstborn to have their act together. It's that the child has little modeling by children. Younger children have siblings as a model for much of their behavior.

 

That is a fascinating theory, that I don't think I've read before.  But it would explain so much about my kids, LOL.

 

I never really took birth order seriously until I had three kids... basically thought that it was a joke.  And now I see it.  And I am absolutely a believer.  I had 3 kids in 3 years, and they are such the stereotype of the "responsible, high-achieving" oldest, the "slightly insecure, but socially very wise" middle, and the "wise-beyond-her-years-yet-totally-babied" youngest.  

 

I do feel like having them so close together made this more extreme... I had my youngest when my oldest was just barely 3, so she's been responsible for way more self-care and I had much higher expectations of her (which I think isn't fair, but I was exhausted and remember thinking how OLD she was, compared to the toddler and the baby) from a much younger age.  She was completely dressing herself when she was 2.5, whereas I still help my 5yo figure out which way is the right way round for her underpants.  

 

I also freely admit, though I'm definitely not proud of it, that I have high expectations for my oldest, and really cling onto them as best I can for my middle, and then by the time I get to that stage with my third, I'm too exhausted to care... this would explain why I let her order a pile of turkey with bread on the side at a restaurant today (the waiter totally judged... "you don't even want some tomato slices?")... with my oldest, I would have judged the snap out of any parent who did that sort of thing ("if you don't insist that your child eat real meals, they'll never learn!"), with my middle I would have insisted that "we don't do that, we order a real meal" and then allowed the tomato slices to be served on a separate plate, lest any juice touch the main plate, and with my 3rd I just want everyone to sit quietly at the table for long enough for me to finish my meal...

 

Someone earlier mentioned that the youngest gets dragged along to stuff for the older kid(s), which makes them more mature... I have to say that in my experience, what really happens is that the older kid(s) are left to participate on their own (even in situations where the parent is supposed to be helping them, which is more common than not up to early elementary), while a disproportionate amount of time is spent trying to keep the youngest quiet and non-disruptive... I know this happens in my family (it happened today, when I took them all to an art museum), and I can think of many times I've witnessed this in other families, so I know it's not just me!  For example, there's an older sister in my youngest's Suzuki group class who gets sent into the class alone, although parent participation is expected... the mother has two younger kids with her, and they all stay out in the hall (I, on the other hand, have two older children, who sit out in the hall with my computer watching a movie).  This girl, in typical oldest child fashion, totally lives up to the expectation that she can figure it out, while every other kid in the class has a parent to help.  

 

I also see that my middle child is very socially savvy, much better at compromising, really good at playing different types of games with different groups of kids (kind of a code shifting for play), whereas the oldest gets annoyed when she can't run everything, and the youngest gets annoyed when she can't have her way in everything.  At the same time, I also see that he is often the afterthought... I think of "big kid" things for my oldest to do, and then decide whether he should participate, or I think of "little kid" things for my youngest to do, and then decide if he should participate... the result is that he participates in an awful lot, but often as more of a tag-along to the other kids' interests and developmental levels.  And then I feel guilty, so I make special experiences for him, and the result is kinda that he gets 3x the experiences of anyone else, LOL.

 

So, basically, I believe in birth order, and I totally take responsibility for creating the situation, and I definitely don't say that proudly... but it is what it is, and they all have strengths and weaknesses, and I think they'll all be okay in the long run.

 

And thus ends the profound thoughts from someone who has basically just admitted that she's a terrible parent, on a whole long thread of people saying that they treat all their kids exactly the same.   :001_unsure:

[momma2three]

 

It is easy to feel the older children are older than they are.  Even when a child is two or three and that first younger sibling is brought home the oldest child can *seem* soooo much older.  When you are a newer parent, you don't always know clear guidelines and expectations for each age and stage.  Heck, I am still learning how to parent a newly young adult.  Give yourself grace and try the best with the knowledge you have, it is all any of us can do.

 

 

This is so true.  My mother tells a story about how she tried to teach me how to make coffee after my sister was born, because she thought I was certainly old enough.  I was 3.  She said she came to her senses in about 30 seconds, but during those 30 seconds I just seemed so old, and she was annoyed with me for not pulling my weight when she was so tired!

 

And I definitely had some thoughts like that with each new baby I brought home about the older one(s).  (And it's telling that my mother's story is basically about being exhausted...)  So I think that this is very common.  

[Excelsior! Academy]

 

****snip****

 

 

To be honest, I think it's interesting that you felt like the typical "victim of being the oldest" in one home and they typical "victim of being the youngest" in the other, and even as an adult you still feel like you got the short end of the stick. Many oldest kids feel the youngest was spoiled and youngest kids feel that the oldest set the precedent and they aren't treated as an individual. This is extremely common. Funny how all children feel they are getting the short end of the stick... no matter what. :)

 

Do you think there's any chance that maybe it just seemed unfair to you because you were a child and like all children, self-centered, and maybe it actually wasn't so uniformly unfair to you, personally, no matter where you ended up in the birth order? Or do you think they really just didn't pay much attention to you and didn't notice the situation you were in? Like they really favored the oldest when you were the youngest, but the youngest when you were the oldest?

 

Maybe?  I am raising said younger sibling's children due to her lack of functioning as an adult partially due to said raising, so I feel a little justified in my whining.   ;)

 

 

[Scarlett]

But what about the poor onlies!   

 

I can tell you that everything negative is blamed on being an only.

[Guest]

So, basically, I believe in birth order, and I totally take responsibility for creating the situation, and I definitely don't say that proudly... but it is what it is, and they all have strengths and weaknesses, and I think they'll all be okay in the long run.

See, but I don't think there's anything bad about the patterns falling out just like birth order theory suggests is likely. We are all a mix of many expeiences and influences, some for the better, some not. It is okay because we are all people raising small people. There is no doubt that countless things have influenced my kids and it would be totally kooky to try to imagine I have raised them all just the same. It was impossible to do that, anyway. Shoot, I just wish I had the physical energy with youngest that I had with first, but it is what it is. I am a different mom at 44 than I was at 28.

[The Girls' Mom]

My girls are close in age, and have done a lot of things together.  Enough to make them pretty close, but not so much that they feel like they are being treated unfairly.  

Now, personality traits are a totally different story.  My oldest ACTS like the youngest sibling, and her sisters often "take care of her".  They are just more mature, and she has a very carefree personality.  We joke that the twins raised their older sister.  The younger two have done many things at a younger age than their older sister, but the biggest reason is because they are looking forward to becoming adults and always want to do the next thing, while my oldest has only entered adulthood kicking and screaming.  (For example, she did NOT want to learn how to drive and did not get her license until she was almost 17...while her sisters are 15 and chomping at the bit to get theirs).

From my perspective, given their personalities and maturity, it seems like they are only a year or so apart instead of 3.5.  

For me...my brothers are 6 and 20 years younger than me, so I did act like the oldest sibling.  Actually, with my youngest brother, I don't have a real sibling relationship at all...he's more like a nephew.  My other brother (6 years younger) I have been more like a mother to our whole lives, although we don't really talk any longer due to some very poor choices he's made.  

 

 

[catz]

I have 2 kids that are 3 years 9 months apart.  When they are together, I expect the same from both them in terms of how they treat each other.  I am an oldest by only 19 months.  I constantly was asked to make concessions for my sibling and we were practically the same age.  The best parenting advice I ever got before I had my 2nd was when you have a group of kids together, average their ages and make that age the expectation of the entire group in terms of behavoir when they are together.  Even as an adult, when I'm listening to someone who is whiny or demanding, it's easy to fall into that mode yourself let alone expecting more of a child.  I will just say from birth I model and expect my kids to treat each other well and I don't dumb that down for my younger child. 

 

I REALLY resented this as a kid from my parents.  I will say, both of my parents were youngest in their families so I think they were over the top in babying my younger brother.  To the point my widowed mother is still financially saving him and emotionally supporting him and he's in his 40's and has 2 kids.  It has definitely crippled him in some ways. 

 

Now I do have higher expectations of older in terms of responsibility that are somewhat age appropriate.  He has had some executive function struggles and I am seeing that come together.   My younger has definitely gotten to do some things earlier than older brother.  She really has her head on straight.  So in terms of responsibilities and privileges, I look at their individual readiness and personalities. 

 

I don't think anything needs to be exactly the same or fair when raising kids by any stretch.   Consistently telling a 3 year old to give up her doll because the 2 year old brother wants it is not a great way to set up a good relationship between siblings and if you do it enough the 3 year old might lose natural and healthy boundaries. 

 

Personally., I don't feel like I baby my youngest one bit.

[HS Mom in NC]

Birth order theory is complete nonsense.

 

 

[J-rap]

I've always thought this topic was fascinating.  My kids were close in age (#5 was born when #1 was 6 years old), but they still seemed to group off to the older two and the younger two.  The middle one was kind of in her own group for a long time, but then moved up with the older two.

 

I think life is usually harder for the oldest.  My son was only 16 months old when #2 was born, and he seemed so old to me!  We probably had huge expectations of him, and he is definitely our Type A, Intense personality.  Of course at some point, we had the same expectations of them, so I think in our minds we treated them all the same.  But still, the oldest was still the oldest and we couldn't expect an infant to keep up with him.

 

We did teach the older three at about the same level at some point, and had the same expectations.  I do think that encouraged our #3 to mature quickly.  But, they still have the stereotypical personalities that you hear about:  #1 being in control, very organized, etc, #2 being carefree and messy, etc.

 

Our #5 is definitely the baby.  It helped that she was very tiny for her age, and #4 was very tall for her age and loved to mother #5.

 

In my own family, things were not typical.  I'm the youngest but have a personality more like an oldest -- though not so intense.  The oldest is more like the youngest in many ways.  I don't know how things got mixed up like that!