#IStandWithAhmed

[SKL]

nm

[SKL]

Again, people are acting on the information available.  The police chief has spoken and did not provide any information like the scenarios you concocted to justify his actions.  After a week of this, that information not being put forth is a strong indication it does not exist.  Expecting people to not comment until "facts" that may not even exist are presented seems a bit absurd.

 

We do know:

--Ahmed took a clock to school.

--He showed it to a teacher in 1st period and called it a clock.

--The alarm on the clock went off during his English class.  He told the teacher it was a clock.  The teacher confiscated the clock.

--During 6th period, he was removed from class by his principal and five police officers.

--He was interrogated for up to 2 hours without a parent present. 

--He was removed from the school in handcuffs and was booked at a juvenile detention center.

--The police chief stated there is no evidence that Ahmed intended the bomb as a hoax.

--Ahmed was suspended from school for 3 days.

 

None of the above is in question, and there is enough there to generate outrage, disgust, and a lawsuit.

 

Except I don't know that he articulated to the English teacher what the thing was and why he had it at school.  If indeed she was the person who freaked out about the non-bomb (and we don't know for sure that she was), then his interaction with her is a key unsubstantiated fact IMO.

 

And the news stories are inconsistent regarding when the clock was confiscated.

 

And actually only 1 cop came and got him out of 6th period; the other 4 waited in another room.  Most of those cops were regularly stationed at the school, from what I understand.

 

If texas law doesn't allow the cops to question him at school without his parents, then the cops obviously shouldn't have done that.  If he was refusing to give a straight answer without his parents/lawyer (a reasonable choice), that could be why they didn't let him go sooner.  A couple of hours (if it was that long) doesn't sound excessive for a police encounter - I've had traffic tickets that took half an hour to be issued.  In fact, it took me a couple hours to file a report when someone broke into my car in the middle of the night.

 

The handcuffs - I'm not a fan, but they did say it was their standard procedure, and I know cops generally do this when they transport people to avoid the risk of them hurting themselves.

 

The school suspension should have been lifted, and maybe it was / would have been, but that was a moot point since the family declared to the world that they have no intention of going back there.

 

I am wondering why the boy didn't tell the English teacher / principal / cops to go talk to his engineering teacher to verify what the thing was and why it was at school.

PS you might want to fix your bullet about not intending the "bomb" as a hoax.

 

And I would point out that even if Ahmed didn't intend to create alarm, that does not mean nobody was genuinely alarmed.

[MomatHWTK]

Finally wading into this one...

 

For me personally I was disturbed that the initial tweets on the matter seemed to treat the child in question as some genius prodigy- that appeared to be the focus.  Even POTUS' tweet referenced the clock, not the arrest.  It was as if, "We care now that it is a "nerd" getting arrested." KWIM?  And in general, I don't care for causes that focus on one individual- they tend to rise or fall based on the credibility of that individual.  Also, once personal gain, even unsolicited, becomes involved it tends to create doubts in my mind.  In this case, once the initial offense against the child took place, it became the adults on both sides controlling the narrative.  I tend to believe the truth is somewhere between the stories of opposing groups with vested interests.  

 

I can honestly say the when I read the initial headline about this arrest- one that did not mention race or religion, my thought was "What kind of idiot brings a box of wires to school nowadays?"  So I have some sympathy for those who think it was a bad idea and thus were not surprised that the child was questions/arrested. I understand there are others who feel differently.  I'm thinking "Too bad the STEM-interested kids who don't do something foolish aren't made into media darlings."   I also felt that the teacher who turned in the item was unfairly targeted.  I thought it looked "suspicious" too- and yes, my kids mess with all kinds of electronic stuff at home.  I don't think it should be an individual teacher's responsibility to make a life or death decision; nor should anyone involved be criticized because people looking at the matter later are certain they could identify the item as not being a bomb.  I again acknowledge that others feel very differently.  

 

The question then becomes is the matter a debate over whether kids should be bringing their homemade electronics to school, whether enforcement of school policies should be so strict, or whether enforcement disproportionately impacts minorities.  

 

I think kids should know better than to bring weird stuff to school- it is what it is in our current society.  

 

I think if there is going to be enforcement it needs to be one standard applied to everyone to avoid discrimination, but this requires a less subjective or "common sense" approach. Strict enforcement would ideally mean everyone is treated exactly the same.  Zero tolerance was intended to remove the burden on teacher's of having to decide which kids are pulling a prank and which are ill intended.  

 

In doing research on this topic, I found to my surprise that the last issue was actually the primary one- it seems that the enforcement is disproportionate. I assumed school systems were overreacting equally in all instances. :001_rolleyes:    We cannot begin to address what behavior should be disciplined and how as long as we are not as a society applying those rules evenly to all citizens.  I am sad to see that I was mistaken to believe that we were and will have to give this more thought over time.   :(

 

 

 

Thus, IMO the whole media circus and attention on one child takes away from the real issue, which is the use of law enforcement procedures in the school setting.  In the meantime, I think we should look closely at the discipline methods employed at our schools to ensure that they are reasonable in all circumstances for all students.  

 

When I went searching, the term that provided me with the most on point results was "school based arrests United States," you might add children or handcuffs for more individual news stories:

http://ocrdata.ed.gov/Downloads/CRDC-School-Discipline-Snapshot.pdf

 

https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/racialjustice/hardlessons_november2008.pdf

 

http://www.justicepolicy.org/uploads/justicepolicy/documents/educationunderarrest_fullreport.pdf

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/for-more-teens-arrests-by-police-replace-school-discipline-1413858602?mg=id-wsj

 

https://csgjusticecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/The_School_Discipline_Consensus_Report.pdf

 

I hope that the people who were so quick to jump on the bandwagon in defense of this child will do so for every child.  Real change isn't going to come from single twitter comment with no follow up action. KWIM?  

[Sneezyone]

In doing research on this topic, I found to my surprise that the last issue was actually the primary one- it seems that the enforcement is disproportionate. I assumed school systems were overreacting equally in all instances. :001_rolleyes: We cannot begin to address what behavior should be disciplined and how as long as we are not as a society applying those rules evenly to all citizens. I am sad to see that I was mistaken to believe that we were and will have to give this more thought over time. :(

 

Thus, IMO the whole media circus and attention on one child takes away from the real issue, which is the use of law enforcement procedures in the school setting. In the meantime, I think we should look closely at the discipline methods employed at our schools to ensure that they are reasonable in all circumstances for all students.

 

When I went searching, the term that provided me with the most on point results was "school based arrests United States," you might add children or handcuffs for more individual news stories:

http://ocrdata.ed.gov/Downloads/CRDC-School-Discipline-Snapshot.pdf

 

https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/racialjustice/hardlessons_november2008.pdf

 

http://www.justicepolicy.org/uploads/justicepolicy/documents/educationunderarrest_fullreport.pdf

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/for-more-teens-arrests-by-police-replace-school-discipline-1413858602?mg=id-wsj

 

https://csgjusticecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/The_School_Discipline_Consensus_Report.pdf

ALL.OF.THIS. Which is what I said several pages back. This reflexive defense of school and law enforcement authorities flies in the face of overwhelming evidence that the disproportionate application of discipline affects kids like Ahmed too often. It gets tiresome to see the usual suspects resort to looking at each, individual case as though there is no larger pattern or practice to consider. The odds favor unconscious bias and over-policing, not an innocent mistake, as the cause of this boy's arrest and suspension.

[Lanny]

It was not. a. hoax. He claimed it was a clock. It was a clock.

 

 

 

But as I understand, he claimed that he designed and built it. That does not seem to be true. Apparently he took apart something that had been purchased and presented it in a different manner, as something he had designed and built.  He put the parts together in a different presentation.

[suzybluecheese]

But as I understand, he claimed that he designed and built it. That does not seem to be true. Apparently he took apart something that had been purchased and presented it in a different manner, as something he had designed and built.  He put the parts together in a different presentation.

 

I know this is a long thread, but I'm wondering how much of it you've read.  A lot of this has already been hashed out here.

 

[MomatHWTK]

Uh Oh, Lanny you missed the deadline to have a thought on the issue.  :001_rolleyes:

 

With regard to idea that if statistical evidence points to disproportionate impact then every action should be assumed to be disproportionate, this to me seems to perpetuate the very behavior we as a society should halt.  I would hope that the individual who has not been proven to be guilty of an offense would be given the benefit of the doubt, otherwise are we not profiling that individual?  Are we to decide that if a large number of individuals from a particular group have been found to act in a certain way, then every member of that group should be assumed to be acting in the same matter unless they can prove otherwise?  I take great offense to statements made as fact that are really the opinion of the speaker and reflect their bias.  Without knowing the police involved in this matter, none of us can say what each one's individual motivation was and it is unfair to judge the individual based on the statistics of a group. 

 

Someone who starts by saying "I guarantee it was racist..." or "That would never have happened to a non-minority..." immediately loses credibility with me because they are willing to apply the exact bias they decry against someone else.  That isn't changing a socital wrong, it is just switching the roles of the perpetrators and victims. 

 

 

 

As a side note, this child did not get an invite to Google or the White House and will probably not be taking an extended vacation from school.  His story got attention, but apparently not enough from the right people. 

[ktgrok]

But as I understand, he claimed that he designed and built it. That does not seem to be true. Apparently he took apart something that had been purchased and presented it in a different manner, as something he had designed and built.  He put the parts together in a different presentation.

 

 

which makes it more bomblike how? He wasn't arrested for passing off an invention as his own. He was arrested for a "hoax bomb". For trying to scare people with a bomb like device. Except later the police admitted there was "no evidence" and you know, he kept telling people it was a clock. 

[ktgrok]

Honestly, I think I'm going to go cry now. Because people persist in thinking "things with wires" are scary. It's not freaking witchcraft, people! You can't go around TYPING YOUR RESPONSE on a device with circuit boards and wires while denouncing said objects as bomb like!

 

I feel like i"m in some dystopian universe lately. 

[MomatHWTK]

The very same components can be used to make any variety of objects, some innocuous and some not. What do you think a bomb is made of?  The combining of simple household cleaning supplies can create a bomb.   So yeah, I can type on a computer and say that the exact same components rearraged would look suspicious.  Silicon wafers can explode. That's why unattended luggage gets airports cleared and unattended packages get the White House put on lockdown.  Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them ignorant. 

 

I guess all these people need to stop using computers too:

Clock-  http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/12114436/novelty-clock-triggers-bomb-scare-at-southeast-alaska-ferry-terminal

Clock- http://www.kgw.com/story/news/local/2014/12/22/suspicious-device-bomb-squad-central/20760431/

Wiring on Car- http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/inventors-electric-car-device-triggers-bomb-scare-in-copenhagen/story-fn5fsgyc-1226692444746

Metal Tube- http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-14/police-plead-for-clues-to-high-school-bomb-scare/6468642

Geocaching- http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=909c9502-796e-442f-aa8f-b71be68a772b

 and -  http://www.wsj.com/articles/in-see-something-say-something-era-geocachers-hidden-treasures-set-off-alarms-1440190160?mg=id-wsj

Circuit Board Intentional Fake- http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-Ticking-Time-Bomb/step3/Build-the-circuit/

Bomb Scene Investigation Manual/ Circuit Boards- https://books.google.com/books?id=ghjOBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=circuit+boards+used+in+bombs&source=bl&ots=3nqGrhJEIh&sig=w7B-K5z1TK-nUNK1YnGYcxnSNyo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CGAQ6AEwBWoVChMIjorG-c6KyAIVSzQ-Ch3HHQtO#v=onepage&q=circuit%20boards%20used%20in%20bombs&f=false

 

Since WWII- http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=infozone&file=electronics/pcb-transformers

 

I also use a printer, but I'm denouncing this toner cartridge.

 

Hmmm.... wires and a digital clock display, must be a ... detonator.

[ktgrok]

The very same components can be used to make any variety of objects, some innocuous and some not. What do you think a bomb is made of?  The combining of simple household cleaning supplies can create a bomb.   So yeah, I can type on a computer and say that the exact same components rearraged would look suspicious.  

 

But they were in the configuration of a clock. Yes, household cleaning supplies can be used to make a bomb. But it would be a bit insane to arrest every housewife with cleaning supplies. These wires were not rearanged into something suspicisious. They were arranged to make a clock. Clocks are not suspicious. That people can look at it and know it isn't a bomb (which given that they never evacuated the school we know is true), but STILL find it frightening is what is blowing my mind. It's scary just because it has wires. Which is just crazy. We can't as a society be afraid of everything with wires. 

[SKL]

I read that the school says the reporting is biased and they will release their side of the story once they get permission from Ahmed's parents.

 

I am sure their side will be biased too, but at least we will have both sides.  If the parents allow it.

[Word Nerd]

In doing research on this topic, I found to my surprise that the last issue was actually the primary one- it seems that the enforcement is disproportionate. I assumed school systems were overreacting equally in all instances. :001_rolleyes:    We cannot begin to address what behavior should be disciplined and how as long as we are not as a society applying those rules evenly to all citizens.

 

I completely agree and made this exact point earlier in the thread

 

I hope that the people who were so quick to jump on the bandwagon in defense of this child will do so for every child.  Real change isn't going to come from single twitter comment with no follow up action. KWIM?

This is hardly the first time I've posted about draconian zero-tolerance policies, and I'm sure it won't be the last. I started this thread because I was genuinely angry about the injustice, not because of a bandwagon. I defended Ahmed not because I'm promoting some agenda or "vested interest" but because it was wrong to treat him like a criminal.

[poppy]

Just when I thought "All those Syrian refugees are really ISIS fighters sneaking in!" was the most wackadoodle thing I'd read today, I open this thread.

 

[Leav97]

/snip

 

(And no, they don't always evacuate schools even when someone calls in a clear bomb threat.  They used to make us all go sit in the gym while they had sniff dogs go around looking for bombs.  It was always a hoax, and everyone knew that, so it would have been silly to make everyone go outside every time.  That would also encourage the hoaxers to do it again, since disruption was what they were after.)

 

There is a huge difference between a called in bomb threat and a "bomb" sitting on a teacher's desk.  

[Mimm]

So. To the idea that this was a carefully orchestrated stunt designed to go viral. Well, if it is Ahmed or his family are certainly ridiculously brilliant. And incredibly talented PR whizzes who should open a firm. And more power to 'em.

 

Truthfully though, it stretches the imagination to assume that any 14 year old kid is that brilliant.

 

I haven't kept up with this thread for several pages, or read beyond a few trending headlines, but are people really suggesting this? The only reason this went viral is because the adults involved behaved like idiots. In order for Ahmed to have planned this, he must have counted on them behaving this way, in which case, if they were so reliably moronic, maybe he did a public service. :p But seriously... that doesn't make sense.

 

Edited for grammerz.

[amsunshine]

I haven't kept up with this thread for several pages, or read behind a few trending headlines, but are people really suggesting this? The only reason this went viral is because the adults involved behaved like idiots. In order for Ahmed to have planned this he must have counted on them behaving this way in which case, which, if they were so reliably moronic, maybe he did a public service. :p But seriously... that doesn't make sense.

 

Yes, people are actually suggesting this.  Richard Dawkins was one.  At the same time, these same people are suggesting that the kid didn't really make the clock, so in effect, the kid is not that intelligent.  It boggles the mind.  

 

What's really frightening is people read this garbage and apparently lack the critical thinking skills to see it for what it is.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

This is a friends post on the topic, I have permission to repost it and edited it only to make some language more appropriate to this board. He said it much better than I would have.

 

 

"Let's review:

1) Ahmed was going to be charged with a bomb hoax, so the authorities understood that this was not a bomb.

2) Ahmed always maintained that the device was a clock. So devious! What a clever bomb hoax!

3) The police were not satisfied that Ahmed would not elaborate on the purpose of the device beyond it being a clock. I (don't care) and neither should you. He is a citizen with the right to remain silent in the face of police questioning. Full stop. Ahmed knew this and told the police he did not want to make any statement until his parents arrived. That they treated this as a sign of guilt is incompetence on their part.

4) In addition to all of this, Ahmed is a minor who was swept from his school to the criminal justice system without his parents present and having committed no crime. This is a table-flipping outrage.

5) That thing is really obviously not a bomb but I'm sure to some people anything with a digital display and wires is possibly a bomb. Fine. The teacher failed cautious and was wrong. Fine. But the police (messed) this up bad and so have all the people blaming Ahmed.

6) This kind of thing has a chilling effect because other brown Muslim children will see this happen and they will understand, even if legions of white people do not, that this (stuff) happened to Ahmed in large part because of who he is rather than what he did. And so they must tread more carefully, they must think twice about how the Radio Shack clerk perceives their purchase and whether the police might be on their way, whether those police will shoot first and ask questions later, etc. These are the subtle ways in which racism denies entire groups access to parts of society by making unjust examples of a few. There are many victims here, the first is Ahmed, and the rest are everyone who is part of the group identity that Ahmed belongs to. This rationale is why hate crimes are treated separately from violence that is not identity-connected.

7) Charges have been dropped. You can stop pretending that there is going to be a big reveal that will vindicate the police case.

Stop victim blaming this kid. Start blaming law enforcement for trampling the rights of American citizens."

 

 

 

[Corraleno]

I haven't kept up with this thread for several pages, or read behind a few trending headlines, but are people really suggesting this? The only reason this went viral is because the adults involved behaved like idiots. In order for Ahmed to have planned this he must have counted on them behaving this way in which case, which, if they were so reliably moronic, maybe he did a public service. :p But seriously... that doesn't make sense.

 

Sadly, there are indeed people claiming that:

 

It was all a hoax set up by Ahmed's father, to get money and attention.

 

The father built the clock, purposely making it look like something a child built, and the reason Ahmed "refused to cooperate" with the police by explaining how it works is because he has no idea how it works, since his father built it. (Never mind the fact that the kid was on a robotics team last year.)

 

Ahmed purposely set the alarm to go off at exactly 9:11, proving he's a terrorist. (I've never seen or read any evidence whatsoever that the alarm was intentionally set, let alone set for 9:11.)

 

That this is all a Muslim conspiracy to make Americans second-guess themselves when they see a real bomb, so that more people will be killled.

 

And then there's all the folks complaining that the POTUS invited a brown Muslim kid to the White House, and not [insert name of any white person who ever had something bad happen to them], which proves he only cares about blacks and Muslims (because he's a Muslim of course!)

 

It's a scary world we live in (and not because of Muslims).

[myfunnybunch]

Sadly, there are indeed people claiming that:

 

It was all a hoax set up by Ahmed's father, to get money and attention.

 

The father built the clock, purposely making it look like something a child built, and the reason Ahmed "refused to cooperate" with the police by explaining how it works is because he has no idea how it works, since his father built it. (Never mind the fact that the kid was on a robotics team last year.)

 

Ahmed purposely set the alarm to go off at exactly 9:11, proving he's a terrorist. (I've never seen or read any evidence whatsoever that the alarm was intentionally set, let alone set for 9:11.)

 

That this is all a Muslim conspiracy to make Americans second-guess themselves when they see a real bomb, so that more people will be killled.

 

And then there's all the folks complaining that the POTUS invited a brown Muslim kid to the White House, and not [insert name of any white person who ever had something bad happen to them], which proves he only cares about blacks and Muslims (because he's a Muslim of course!)

 

It's a scary world we live in (and not because of Muslims).

 

:huh:  :huh:  :huh:  :huh: :huh:  

 

Holy cow.

 

And people actually believe this? That's beyond scary.

 

I can't even......

[Mimm]

:huh:  :huh:  :huh:  :huh: :huh:  

 

Holy cow.

 

And people actually believe this? That's beyond scary.

 

I can't even......

 

Oh, I'm not actually too surprised. There are people who believe anything. :glare: Also, there's a backlash against anyone who gets too much positive attention. This kid got invited to a bunch of places, including the White House, and given a bunch of stuff, and I do understand people thinking, "For that clock? Really? What about all these other kids who suffered injustices?" So they try to poke holes in the story.

 

And then you have your garden variety Islamaphobe who will believe the worst of any Muslim or someone who might be a Muslim or someone who is nice to Muslims. ;)

[suzybluecheese]

Uh Oh, Lanny you missed the deadline to have a thought on the issue.  :001_rolleyes:

 

 

Really.  Not what I was saying out all.  But a lot of this conversation is just going around in circles.  I was really trying to be nice rather than rolling my eyes at his comment.

[EmseB]

I know this will probably get me further raked over the coals, but I don't think my end point is so awful.

 

I personally have a knee jerk skeptical response to stories that go viral like this before all the facts are revealed. I just cannot bring myself to get totally behind someone if I've only heard their version of events or a version of events. This leads me to read or discuss other aspects of a case, and in turn, it tends to sound...controversial(?) because there's usually just one aspect being discussed in major media outlets, or among certain groups. I don't traffic in conspiracy theories, either. Those seem to fall in the hateful and ridiculous ditch on the other side of the road. I like transcripts, police reports, narrative accounts, etc. I'm afraid that when someone is accused of something that I personally see as an injustice I'm likely to just think, "they say this happened in their presser and that is horrible!! Whoever did this to them should be brought to justice!!" But, they are often the ones accused, and those who are in authority are often constrained in what they can say, if they can say anything at all. People raise a lot of money very quickly this way now via the internet

 

Even if something fits with the way I see people and my worldview, if I don't hear fact based reporting from both sides of the issue, I don't like to jump on a hashtag bandwagon or gofundme. So many times, stories like this end up being much different from what is initially reported. Facts eventually come out, but usually after everyone has made up their mind about what happened. And if I've already donated money? What then?

 

For example, I think about my inclination to want to support people who homeschool and end up with their kids taken away by CPS and run stories which go viral about government thugs and injustice. But, if I didn't wait for all the facts to come out, I'd end up supporting people like the Nauglers.

 

Think about the Rolling Stone rape thread on this forum. Anyone who questioned the story or discussed any other aspects of the case other than the horrible thing that happened was scolded and mocked and generally brow beaten by other posters. Anyone who questioned the details was hated for doing so. And, as it turned out, the story was wholly made up out of thin air.

 

 

For those who are analogy impaired, I am not comparing Ahmed with the Nauglers or Jackie, but rather the idea of vehemently supporting someone without knowing the whole story. Many of the facts people have posted here are things they could not possibly know based on what the authorities or Ahmed's family have released.

 

In the end, what I've decided about this case is that it is absolutely wrong to detain/arrest/question a minor without his parents present. It is wrong to arrest a kid for bringing a clock to school in a case.

[Word Nerd]

In the end, what I've decided about this case is that it is absolutely wrong to detain/arrest/question a minor without his parents present. It is wrong to arrest a kid for bringing a clock to school in a case.

 

Indeed, it is.

[zoobie]

I know this will probably get me further raked over the coals, but I don't think my end point is so awful.

 

I personally have a knee jerk skeptical response to stories that go viral like this before all the facts are revealed. I just cannot bring myself to get totally behind someone if I've only heard their version of events or a version of events. This leads me to read or discuss other aspects of a case, and in turn, it tends to sound...controversial(?) because there's usually just one aspect being discussed in major media outlets, or among certain groups. I don't traffic in conspiracy theories, either. Those seem to fall in the hateful and ridiculous ditch on the other side of the road. I like transcripts, police reports, narrative accounts, etc. I'm afraid that when someone is accused of something that I personally see as an injustice I'm likely to just think, "they say this happened in their presser and that is horrible!! Whoever did this to them should be brought to justice!!" But, they are often the ones accused, and those who are in authority are often constrained in what they can say, if they can say anything at all. People raise a lot of money very quickly this way now via the internet

 

Even if something fits with the way I see people and my worldview, if I don't hear fact based reporting from both sides of the issue, I don't like to jump on a hashtag bandwagon or gofundme. So many times, stories like this end up being much different from what is initially reported. Facts eventually come out, but usually after everyone has made up their mind about what happened. And if I've already donated money? What then?

 

For example, I think about my inclination to want to support people who homeschool and end up with their kids taken away by CPS and run stories which go viral about government thugs and injustice. But, if I didn't wait for all the facts to come out, I'd end up supporting people like the Nauglers.

 

Think about the Rolling Stone rape thread on this forum. Anyone who questioned the story or discussed any other aspects of the case other than the horrible thing that happened was scolded and mocked and generally brow beaten by other posters. Anyone who questioned the details was hated for doing so. And, as it turned out, the story was wholly made up out of thin air.

 

 

For those who are analogy impaired, I am not comparing Ahmed with the Nauglers or Jackie, but rather the idea of vehemently supporting someone without knowing the whole story. Many of the facts people have posted here are things they could not possibly know based on what the authorities or Ahmed's family have released.

 

In the end, what I've decided about this case is that it is absolutely wrong to detain/arrest/question a minor without his parents present. It is wrong to arrest a kid for bringing a clock to school in a case.

The police said there was NO evidence to support Ahmed's arrest. What other side are we missing?

[Butter]

All that and the main theme being...why he would be handcuffed for it???

 

Well, now, that's the million dollar question, isn't it?

 

(And no, they don't always evacuate schools even when someone calls in a clear bomb threat.  They used to make us all go sit in the gym while they had sniff dogs go around looking for bombs.  It was always a hoax, and everyone knew that, so it would have been silly to make everyone go outside every time.  That would also encourage the hoaxers to do it again, since disruption was what they were after.)

 

Where I grew up and here they evacuate 100% of the time when there is a clear bomb threat.  If someone calls and the administration thinks it's just a kid being stupid and it ends up actually being a bomb and the school blows up that would be a big problem for them.  I remember many times in elementary school sitting in the field across from the school.  It was a hoax every single time.  But they still took it - and our lives - seriously.  It actually shocks me that administrators would ignore a clear bomb threat and not actually get the kids to a safe place just in case.

 

FTR, I didn't think he was making a hoax bomb in my speculations. I was perplexed by why he would show off something he didn't make, but hoax bomb didn't cross my mind until it was brought up somewhere else. I still don't see it, but I'm aware it is a conspiracy theory floating around.

 

He's 14.  Kids often think something they made or wrote is super amazing awesomesauce and they can't wait to show it to a teacher they really like/respect.  Often those somethings are not nearly as awesome as the kid thinks it is.  I can totally understand why he wanted to show his clock off to his engineering teacher.

 

They would also have to predict that the police would over react while also not giving them reason to do so.

 

It went viral because the kids ended up in handcuffs at school.  Yeah.  No way could his family have guessed that would happen!

 

But as I understand, he claimed that he designed and built it. That does not seem to be true. Apparently he took apart something that had been purchased and presented it in a different manner, as something he had designed and built.  He put the parts together in a different presentation.

 

He did design and build it.  He took the innerds out of a clock and put them back together - in a way that still worked! - in a pencil case.  To a 14 year old taking something apart and putting it back together is designing and building it.  He never claims to have invented clocks.

[EmseB]

 

He did design and build it. He took the innerds out of a clock and put them back together - in a way that still worked! - in a pencil case.

Our disagreement about what "design" means aside, can you please point me to a source for this info? This is what I've been looking to confirm.

[SKL]

Our disagreement about what "design" means aside, can you please point me to a source for this info? This is what I've been looking to confirm.

 

As far as I know he never said he took it from the innards of a commercial clock.  Experts figured that out from the photographs.  He called it his invention.  Could be that at 14 he doesn't know what "invention" means, or it could be that he was fibbing.

[EmseB]

The police said there was NO evidence to support Ahmed's arrest. What other side are we missing?

What actually happened at the school between the confiscation of the device and Ahmed's arrest, what actually led to the confiscation, what led to the police being called, a transcript of the police questioning, confirmation that Ahmed built the clock himself or just put already assembled clock innards in a box, why the engineering teacher didn't keep the clock in his class for safe keeping, why he told Ahmed not to show anyone, why Ahmed thought the box would look suspicious if he put a lock on it, why his parents weren't called when he asked for them, why the handcuffs...a whole bunch of stuff. I'd love a link to that stuff.

 

But, I'm told none of this matters because he was arrested, full stop, end of discussion. I'm not sure the problem with the arrest can be discussed, fixed or remediated if what actually happened (from everyone's perspective) isn't released.

[SKL]

Right.  The school's reaction and what led to it is key, especially if we want this to be a learning opportunity for future decisions.

[amsunshine]

As far as I know he never said he took it from the innards of a commercial clock.  Experts figured that out from the photographs.  He called it his invention.  Could be that at 14 he doesn't know what "invention" means, or it could be that he was fibbing.

 

What "experts"?  Anyone can get online and claim to be an expert, but how does anyone know their opinions are reliable?  Sure, there are some armchair quarterbacks out there who claim these things after looking at the photos, but others disagree.   

[SKL]

What "experts"?  Anyone can get online and claim to be an expert, but how does anyone know their opinions are reliable?  Sure, there are some armchair quarterbacks out there who claim these things after looking at the photos, but others disagree.   

 

So far nobody has disagreed/denied as far as I know.

 

"Experts" is just a generic term meaning "people who know a lot more than me about the insides of old digital clocks."  Though if you google you will see they are not just armchair hacks.

 

[unsinkable]

What actually happened at the school between the confiscation of the device and Ahmed's arrest, what actually led to the confiscation, what led to the police being called, a transcript of the police questioning, confirmation that Ahmed built the clock himself or just put already assembled clock innards in a box, why the engineering teacher didn't keep the clock in his class for safe keeping, why he told Ahmed not to show anyone, why Ahmed thought the box would look suspicious if he put a lock on it, why his parents weren't called when he asked for them, why the handcuffs...a whole bunch of stuff. I'd love a link to that stuff.

 

But, I'm told none of this matters because he was arrested, full stop, end of discussion. I'm not sure the problem with the arrest can be discussed, fixed or remediated if what actually happened (from everyone's perspective) isn't released.

I asked a few of these questions myself a few days ago. I wasn't able to find the answers.

 

I did find a lot of assumptions and made up "facts" but those won't help prevent this from happening again.

[amsunshine]

So far nobody has disagreed/denied as far as I know.

 

"Experts" is just a generic term meaning "people who know a lot more than me about the insides of old digital clocks."  Though if you google you will see they are not just armchair hacks.

 

 

 

I posted this already, but for the sake of efficiency, the editors at Make magazine ran an article yesterday that responded to these claims.

[SKL]

I posted this already, but for the sake of efficiency, the editors at Make magazine ran an article yesterday that responded to these claims.

 

Your link does not deny that he disassembled an old clock and reassembled it and called it his invention.

 

Your link just says that tinkering like that is a fine thing for kids to do.  Nobody is denying that tinkering is a fine thing for kids to do.  Calling it one's own "invention" when that's not true is a different matter.

 

[Word Nerd]

Your link does not deny that he disassembled an old clock and reassembled it and called it his invention.

 

Your link just says that tinkering like that is a fine thing for kids to do.  Nobody is denying that tinkering is a fine thing for kids to do.  Calling it one's own "invention" when that's not true is a different matter.

 

 

So it's OK for you to use "experts" as a general term but not for anyone to use the term "invention" in a general way.

[amsunshine]

Your link does not deny that he disassembled an old clock and reassembled it and called it his invention.

 

Your link just says that tinkering like that is a fine thing for kids to do. Nobody is denying that tinkering is a fine thing for kids to do. Calling it one's own "invention" when that's not true is a different matter.

 

Ok, I see. I think a 14 year old is not necessarily going to use the word invention in the same way a patent lawyer would.

 

I have more to add but have to run rt now ...

[unsinkable]

What actually happened at the school between the confiscation of the device and Ahmed's arrest, what actually led to the confiscation, what led to the police being called, a transcript of the police questioning, confirmation that Ahmed built the clock himself or just put already assembled clock innards in a box, why the engineering teacher didn't keep the clock in his class for safe keeping, why he told Ahmed not to show anyone, why Ahmed thought the box would look suspicious if he put a lock on it, why his parents weren't called when he asked for them, why the handcuffs...a whole bunch of stuff. I'd love a link to that stuff.

 

But, I'm told none of this matters because he was arrested, full stop, end of discussion. I'm not sure the problem with the arrest can be discussed, fixed or remediated if what actually happened (from everyone's perspective) isn't released.

Something else I wanted to know was if there were or how many police resource officers are at the school and if there were, what were their particular actions?

 

I'd read differing accounts about resource officer(s).

[catz]

Your link does not deny that he disassembled an old clock and reassembled it and called it his invention.

 

Your link just says that tinkering like that is a fine thing for kids to do.  Nobody is denying that tinkering is a fine thing for kids to do.  Calling it one's own "invention" when that's not true is a different matter.

 

 

I can't believe people are getting on top of semantics with a 14 year old.  As a parent of a 14 year old boy, I'm pretty delighted lots of days if he's got clean clothes on and brushed his teeth, let alone using 100% accurate English 24/7.  I'm surprised that kid has been as poised as he has been quite honestly. 

 

Although, if you want to get technical, I just looked up a few textbook definitions of invention.  "something ​newly ​designed or ​created, or the ​activity of ​designing or ​creating new things", I guess his little and possibly rebuilt device could fall into that category.

 

I honestly don't really care if he just re built a clock into another case.  He didn't deserve to be arrested for it.  Aren't you the parent who made a big stink because someone called the police on you when you left your young kids in the car?  Well at least you weren't arrested and dragged off for a couple hours, because this young kid was.  That is completely ridiculous to me and a big deal.  Especially considering that there are no charges being considered.  In a high school that has a class called engineering, I would actually think this wouldn't be super uncommon to have kids from that class rebuilding stuff and carrying it around. 

 

If the device was confiscated and he were punished for being disruptive, this would not be news.  He was arrested without just cause.

 

And yes, this kid is a media darling.  That isn't something anyone can predict or create.  People get notoriety all the time for weird things. 

[amsunshine]

I'm trying to figure out what the point is in arguing about the semantics of whether Ahmed used the word "invention" or "creation" or whatever in describing his clock.  A 14 year old is not going to use the same precision of language that an adult more versed in this type of vocabulary would use.  It really seems like nitpicking the kid and holding him to an unrealistically high standard. 

 

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that he disassembled and then reassembled a clock in a new housing -- that's an accomplishment for a 14 year old, and a step toward understanding how electronics work.  He was showing his accomplishment to his teachers.

 

Now, for the bigger question:  what does it matter whether you think his accomplishment was the work of a technical genius or the work of a beginner with only a rudimentary knowledge of how the technological components work together?  What is the point of that discussion?

[LucyStoner]

All of the robotics and electronic components my son has are either commercially available in kits or stand alone parts or are things recycled from other items, like clocks (for reals) and broken drives and such. His latest treasure is the innards of a dead DVD player.

 

I suppose he can't use the word invention unless he manufactures the whole thing himself?

[ktgrok]

Your link does not deny that he disassembled an old clock and reassembled it and called it his invention.

 

Your link just says that tinkering like that is a fine thing for kids to do.  Nobody is denying that tinkering is a fine thing for kids to do.  Calling it one's own "invention" when that's not true is a different matter.

 

 

You're right. Good thing they arrested him. He obviously was passing himself off as a clock inventer.

 

Except wait, that's not what he was arrested for. He was arrested for making a hoax bomb, something the police chief admits they have no evidence for. 

[*Lulu*]

I'm trying to figure out what the point is in arguing about the semantics of whether Ahmed used the word "invention" or "creation" or whatever in describing his clock. A 14 year old is not going to use the same precision of language that an adult more versed in this type of vocabulary would use. It really seems like nitpicking the kid and holding him to an unrealistically high standard.

 

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that he disassembled and then reassembled a clock in a new housing -- that's an accomplishment for a 14 year old, and a step toward understanding how electronics work. He was showing his accomplishment to his teachers.

 

Now, for the bigger question: what does it matter whether you think his accomplishment was the work of a technical genius or the work of a beginner with only a rudimentary knowledge of how the technological components work together? What is the point of that discussion?

And what difference do the conclusions drawn from that discussion make on the real issue, a CHILD arrested for a contraption that was never believed by any of the adults to be dangerous?

[SKL]

The reason some of us are pointing out Ahmed's misuse of the word "invention" is because most people are taking everything he said about this case at face value.  If he fibbed about his so-called "invention" then I don't think we can take everything else he said at face value.  And since we have no other source of facts (as far as what happened before the cops got involved), we should withhold judgment until we do.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Most of the people criticizing the 14yo for possibly failing in word perfectness during his interrogation

 

A. haven't raised a child to age 14 yet (so god knows what they're judging his abilities by), and

B. have never personally endured an unlawful interrogation as a minor.

 

Or so it seems to me.

[amsunshine]

The reason some of us are pointing out Ahmed's misuse of the word "invention" is because most people are taking everything he said about this case at face value.  If he fibbed about his so-called "invention" then I don't think we can take everything else he said at face value.  And since we have no other source of facts (as far as what happened before the cops got involved), we should withhold judgment until we do.

 

 

But you are taking the words of a 14 year old at the "face value" of how an adult, more familiar with the implications of those words in terms of patent law or copyright infringement, would use them.  That is unreasonable.

 

And again, what is your point?  Let's assume for the sake of argument, he "fibbed" to use your words.  What does that prove?  Does it justify what happened to him in any way, shape or form?  What is the point?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

All of the robotics and electronic components my son has are either commercially available in kits or stand alone parts or are things recycled from other items, like clocks (for reals) and broken drives and such. His latest treasure is the innards of a dead DVD player.

 

I suppose he can't use the word invention unless he manufactures the whole thing himself?

 

So you're saying he should have been a little more "Professor from Gilligan's Island" in his creative pursuits. Pineapples, coconuts, whittled shards of wood, and crap from the boat -- maybe the people could have handled that.

 

Unless the crap from the boat had wires, because in 2015 people think wires are self-combustible.

[SKL]

And I don't think knowing his project was not an "invention" is holding a "brilliant" 14yo to an unrealistically high standard.

 

Not too long ago we were talking about another 14yo (a very sheltered one whom nobody considers brilliant), and most people want him to be condemned for life for some things that he did at that age.

 

I remember being 13yo and I knew that the electronics I then put together (based on someone else's model) were not "inventions."  At any rate, I think it's appropriate to be skeptical of some of his more surprising statements.

[ktgrok]

The reason some of us are pointing out Ahmed's misuse of the word "invention" is because most people are taking everything he said about this case at face value.  If he fibbed about his so-called "invention" then I don't think we can take everything else he said at face value.  And since we have no other source of facts (as far as what happened before the cops got involved), we should withhold judgment until we do.

 

Okway, so lets say he lied. And it wasn't really a clock at all, it really was a bomb! Except..no...it was later shown to be a clock. 

 

Well, maybe he lied and he really was trying to convince people it was a bomb...it really was a hoax bomb. Except the police chief says there is no evidence for that. 

 

So...which part of his story are you questioning?

[*Lulu*]

"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."

-Isaac Newton

 

Very little "new" is created without using the knowledge and inventions of those who have come before. This thread makes me feel our country is lacking, in addition to understanding basic principles of science, an understanding of the process of creation. Art, music, literature, technology, medicine, everything builds on what has come before.