#IStandWithAhmed

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Thank you, Tibbie, for clarifying.  I agree that no one should raise their children to cower.  I hope I *have* raised my children to consider the context they are in and to prudently adjust their behavior to fit the situation.

 

 

The other posters going off about race and color and privilege regarding my posts -- you all could not be further from the truth thinking that's *my* meaning.  But if that makes you happy, so be it. 

 

A. Since I believe Ahmed did nothing wrong, I cannot find him imprudent or inconsiderate.

 

B. It doesn't make us happy. Quite the opposite.

[Halftime Hope]

Your specious arguments in this thread are a moving target, but I'll respond to this one anyway.

 

You are arguing the side of the principal who reminded the families of the school that children need to comply by policies about allowed items. What the principal did not say was that clocks are not allowed, nor objects that are not understood by ignorant teachers, nor harmless things that students have made.

 

I'm not arguing the principal's side of anything.  If he said the same as what I believe on this, so be it -- that'll be a first -- I'm stating my beliefs only.  (I haven't followed anything on this except one article in the local newspaper, and they didn't include the school's reaction, the article was about the family.)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Thank you, Tibbie, for clarifying.  I agree that no one should raise their children to cower.  I hope I *have* raised my children to consider the context they are in and to prudently adjust their behavior to fit the situation.

 

 

The other posters going off about race and color and privilege regarding my posts -- you all could not be further from the truth thinking that's *my* meaning.  But if that makes you happy, so be it. 

 

When you say a 14yo should adjust his lawful/normal/age appropriate behaviors because of a 7 year old murder and some fools prattling about sharia courts, then your meaning is quite clear.

[Guest]

I'm not arguing the principal's side of anything.  If he said the same as what I believe on this, so be it -- that'll be a first -- I'm stating my beliefs only.  (I haven't followed anything on this except one article in the local newspaper, and they didn't include the school's reaction, the article was about the family.)

 

Well that explains it! Oh my goodness gracious Half Time what are you doing?!

[swimmermom3]

"He's vowed never to take an invention to school again."

 

There are so many things wrong with that. We've become a country where it is better to be ignorant and fearful, than intelligent, creative, and adept at problem solving.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm not arguing the principal's side of anything. If he said the same as what I believe on this, so be it -- that'll be a first -- I'm stating my beliefs only. (I haven't followed anything on this except one article in the local newspaper, and they didn't include the school's reaction, the article was about the family.)

Oh!

[myfunnybunch]

B. It doesn't make us happy. Quite the opposite.

 

ETA: I wish I could like this ten times instead of only once.

 

Heartbroken.

 

Outraged.

 

Sick to my stomach.

 

So so sad.

 

We host Saudi exchange students. They're all Muslim. We met our most recent student's younger brothers (and his mother and father and sweet sisters) this summer. They're 16, 14, 11. Sweet. A little teenage-gawky, shy, smart boys. The idea that someone might look at those sweet gentle boys and think "terrorist," or even that they should be perceived any little bit differently than my own 14 y.o. because of some stupid documentaries or supposed context created by their community makes me want to cry, and the idea that Ahmed should have KNOWN BETTER because "OMG, MUSLIM!" makes me sick to my stomach.

 

Ahmed is a real boy, who was arrested in front of his classmates and was refused access to his parents or legal counsel because he made a clock and brought it to school. He must have been terrified. His parents must have been terrified. And the support he's received since doesn't erase that. It was an egregious wrong.

 

Any kind of argument that tries to blame the boy or his community or Muslims in general deserves to be countered. Again and again and again.

[idnib]

Thank you, Tibbie, for clarifying.  I agree that no one should raise their children to cower.  I hope I *have* raised my children to consider the context they are in and to prudently adjust their behavior to fit the situation.

 

I understand what's you're saying, but when you don't talk loudly at a restaurant or bring prohibited items through an airport security checkpoint, that applies to everyone.

 

You're asking Ahmed to behave differently because of his religion and/or color and what others of his religion and/or color have done.

 

The opposite of that is saying people who are not that religion and/or color don't have that context so they don't have to behave in the same way Ahmed does.

 

How then do they not have a privilege he doesn't?

[Halftime Hope]

In response to OKBud's what have you been doing? (my quote button just quit working)

 

 

Working overtime, looking for a house, and taking a beating here just cuz I have an opinion.   :rolleyes:  OK, I know, that's not what you really meant.

 

 

My apologies, I wrote something that was incorrect. I  should have added that I also watched a several local news clips of the boy himself and his family speaking out.   I wasn't really interested in the police and the school's side of things, so I did not look up  that part of the coverage.  I'm also not terribly interested in what everyone and their mother has to say on Twitter or FB. 

[swimmermom3]

Can you tell me why you would blame the teacher since it was not his engineering teacher who might have known? What if it was his English teacher who had no clue?

 

 If it looked like some of the gadgetry from his home that was pictured in photos, I wouldn't know how it worked. (If it looked like a regular old clock, none of this is relevant. But we haven't seen photos of it yet. I am imagining a homemade digital clock doesn't necessarily look like an encased digital clock would look)  How would the teacher know to check with the engineering teacher? Wouldn't that be the principal's job? 

 

Note: I am not blaming the student at all. I just think there is some reason for teachers to be cautious in our times given all the massacres that have occurred at schools. 

 

Maybe this has been brought up further down the the thread and I apologize if it has been. Yesterday on NPR, when they explained that the science teacher told Ahmed not to show anyone, the boy insisted he wanted to show the English teacher because he had a bond with this person and he was really excited about his invention. That to me was one of the more soul-crushing components in this story. It was a bond betrayed. The boy's life will never be the same. He's young and there will be a lot of celebrity and opportunities, which may not all be healthy and positive for someone his age. He will also stay on files everywhere in government and law enforcement as someone to be watched.  I wouldn't be surprised if he turns up on a "no fly" list.

 

[Halftime Hope]

I understand what's you're saying, but when you don't talk loudly at a restaurant to bring prohibited items through an airport security checkpoint, that applies to everyone.

 

You're asking Ahmed to behave differently because of his religion and/or color and what others of his religion and/or color have done. The opposite of that is saying people who are not that religion and/or color don't have that context so they don't have to behave in the same way Ahmed does.

 

How do they not have a privilege he doesn't then?

 

Given zero tolerance and the foolishness that results from it, no kid should take stuff like that to school. 

 

Everyone should be aware of the world they live in, and live accordingly.  Of course not everyone agrees with me.  So be it.  Some of you are clearly on the "I'll do what I want, the heck with the consequences" end of the spectrum.  I'm not there.  Oh, well.

[idnib]

Given zero tolerance and the foolishness that results from it, no kid should take stuff like that to school. 

 

Everyone should be aware of the world they live in, and live accordingly.  Of course not everyone agrees with me.  So be it.  Some of you are clearly on the "I'll do what I want, the heck with the consequences" end of the spectrum.  I'm not there.  Oh, well.

 

If this is only about the zero-tolerance atmosphere in schools these days, why bring up the "honor killings" and stuff like that at all?

 

And if everyone needs to be aware of the world they live in and act accordingly, are there not some situations in which some people do not have to be as careful as others? And what label would you give that difference?

[amsunshine]

Everyone should be aware of the world they live in, and live accordingly.  Of course not everyone agrees with me.  So be it.  Some of you are clearly on the "I'll do what I want, the heck with the consequences" end of the spectrum.  I'm not there.  Oh, well.

 

No one in this thread has exhibited the attitude you describe above (in bold).   Instead, what people have suggested is that every citizen of this country should have the same freedoms as any other.  No one should have to adjust his/her behavior for fear of being associated with the criminal activities of others who, for example, happen to live in the same town, or share the same religion.  That is just wrong-headed thinking, and only perpetuates division and hatred between people of different races/cultures/beliefs/creeds.

[LucyStoner]

When my son was 9, a white man walked into a cafe in our city and killed 4 people before leaving and killing someone else.

 

What does this tell us about what my white son should and should not do when he is a young teen?

 

Nothing. Nothing at all.

 

Well, obviously he shouldn't walk into a cafe with a gun and start a killing spree.

 

But that rather goes without saying, doesn't it?

[amsunshine]

I just wanted to add that I think this is exactly the kind of conversation people in our country need to be having right now if any positive changes are going happen in the near future.

 

Along with all the racial implications of this case, there is something seriously wrong with our schools if a teenager's innocent passion for electronics, desire to learn more about them and to seek mentors who can help him learn those things is mistaken as something sinister and to be distrusted.  Forget standards and common core -- this seems like a much bigger and more fundamental issue to me.  Education of our nation's teachers, maybe?  

[Murphy101]

Guys, don't tell me that each one of us doesn't adjust our behavior for the context we are in. We do. I'm going to have different commonsense guidelines for how I act in an airport, in a nice restaurant, at the park, or at a football game.

 

School kids should not bring weird-looking contraptions into schools that have zero-tolerance policies. (Some don't allow bags or lockers at all, others only allow see-through bags.)

Omg

 

There's not enough coffee or wine in my house for this nonsense.

 

It was not a weird looking contraption. Quit trying to make a clock into something sinister when it just is not. It was a CLOCK!

 

There is zero reason, common sense or otherwise, that a kid can't bring a clock to school.

 

Condoning this hysteria is a problem to be dealt with.

 

Namely by refusing to cater to it.

 

Any school that is so dangerous a kid can't bring a clock or a backpack to school is a place unfit for schooling, imnsho.

[redsquirrel]

Given zero tolerance and the foolishness that results from it, no kid should take stuff like that to school. 

 

Everyone should be aware of the world they live in, and live accordingly.  Of course not everyone agrees with me.  So be it.  Some of you are clearly on the "I'll do what I want, the heck with the consequences" end of the spectrum.  I'm not there.  Oh, well.

 

Well, I for one am not quite so willing to roll over and give control of my life to the 'zero tolerance' zealots.  I think that kind of thinking should be challenged at every opportunity. I think trying to create huge systems to control us, hiding behind a facade of 'keeping us safe' , shouldn't be tolerated. I think the ridiculous results of those control grabs should be highlighted until the power structure breaks

 

I will never give up my right and my responsibility to decide for myself who the enemy is. 

[zoobie]

Your post is just all over the place--it has me completely confused; so how about I tell you what I've been referring to? Maybe that will clear things up a bit?

 

In 2008, two darling sisters were killed by their father in Irving, in what appeared to be a Muslim honor-killing because they were too Westernized for his taste, and there are allegations of child abuse as well. (ETA: Irving, collectively, was stricken, heart-broken that this could happen to two of their own. The 911 call was absolutely heart-wrenching. ) Documentaries have been filmed about it, although maybe not released yet, and the father has evaded capture and is on the FBI's Top 10 list, or he was. Not sure the current status. The man had an Egyptian passport, but I'm not sure if that means he was actually Egyptian or not.

 

ETA; regarding the mediation group you brought up vs. the one brought to national attention related to Irving: the "judges" for the "tribunal" said it was based on Sharia law. Those are their words to use to describe themselves.

Ohhh ok. We are talking about two different murders. The ones in Houston were linked in the ranting articles against the "sharia law" mediation center they were opening in Irving.

 

So the murders in 2008 were in the same city. And also happened to be perpetuated by a Muslim. What the heck does that have to do with Ahmed and his clock or the mediation center? People of all races and religions kill their children for all kinds of crazy reasons. Still nothing whatsoever to do with this kid and this clock. The behavior of a psychopathic murderer should have no bearing on how this kid acts any moreso than my son should change his behavior based on some random psycho white guy.

[Ravin]

As a nation, I reckon we're collectively quite susceptible to suggestion and tribal politics. We, as a group, also seem to be particularly adept at putting everything, including fellow human beans, into little mental boxes made of ticky-tacky and shutting them up tight in there.

Dang it, OKbud, now I've got that song in my head!

[Guest]

Dang it, OKbud, now I've got that song in my head!

 

You.

Are.

Welcome.

[justasque]

...

What all the adults making offers and statements of support are doing is giving this kid the pat on the back, and the tech folks are offering that next step and guidance. They're doing so on a grand scale, much more so than the actual clock warrants, because the response of the adults in this kid's school was so egregious.

 

I think the adults in question are also making a stink about it because they were that kid - that geeky kid who takes stuff apart and tinkers with it for fun - when they were fourteen.  They are seeing one of their own in trouble, and reaching out to tell him, "Hey, we were just like you at fourteen, and we know it's rough for you right now, but trust us, stay the course, because it gets better.  Way better."

 

<< Halftime Hope, on 19 Sept 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

 

Now, regarding your assertion downplaying the significance of the court: the judges think more highly of themselves and their purview than you are portraying, and were you an Islamic woman going before them, you might not feel that you had the equal protection under the law afforded by US jurisprudence.  

 

(Edited, to not overstate my position.)

 

Just wanted to remind you that there is at least one Islamic woman participating in this thread, and no doubt several more reading along.

 

 

...I guess I'm just cut out of a different bit of cloth than some of you all seem to be.  If something I do provokes a scene, I consider it my responsibility.  If my kid provokes a scene, I'm going to have a talk with him to find out the facts, and then I'm going to help him see how others perceived what he did.  And then we'll talk about whether it is right or not, and in general, we'll talk about changes so that we don't repeat the same result. 

 

And had he been my kid, we'd have already had a hundred talks about listening to the voice of caution in your head, cuz that's been a mantra for us since I was sooo slow to learn it.  Sigh.  (The inner dialog: "Self, something tells me this is going to look suspicious.  Maybe I'll ask my teacher, or I'll find out if we can do in-class projects or a science fair project?") 

 

He had already been participating in a school-based robotics program.  The clock was something he created at home that tied in to his previous coursework.  If what he had been doing in school had been treated as respected creative schoolwork, why should he believe that the same activity being done at home should be treated differently?  Why should he believe the resulting product might be seen as scary?  It wasn't scary when he made the same kinds of things in school.

 

So we should all just act however we want, do whatever we want, as long as we're not breaking the law explicit laws or hurting anyone?  That's what it boils down to.

 

He didn't break any laws.  The clock was not a hoax bomb.  It was not used in a hoax of any kind.  Ahmed did not represent it as a bomb to anyone.  When asked, he stated that it was not a bomb, nor did he think it looked like one.

 

 

Given zero tolerance and the foolishness that results from it, no kid should take stuff like that to school. 

 

Everyone should be aware of the world they live in, and live accordingly.  Of course not everyone agrees with me.  So be it.  Some of you are clearly on the "I'll do what I want, the heck with the consequences" end of the spectrum.  I'm not there.  Oh, well.

I am aware of the world I live in, and act accordingly.  I know that kids who study STEM fields in college have good career prospects.  I know that in my local community they may not get much encouragement and mentoring towards college and/or STEM fields.  So every year, I go to the local school and help kids make projects similar to Ahmed's.  We take apart old appliances, identify useful parts, and create "robots" from them.  We often take apart VCRs, phones, computers, and printers.  We've taken apart a weed wacker, a sewing machine, and a karaoke machine.  We've even done a bunch of LED clock radios.  We pull out motors, fans, switches, LED lights, speakers, and other potentially useful components, along with wires and gears and any parts the kids think look cool.   I teach the kids how to strip the ends of wires.  We use the wires plus some AA and 9V batteries to try to power the various parts.  Then the kids build their "robots".  Most of them aren't really robots, they're more like "cool creatures made of stuff glued onto tin cans", but they do have working parts of some sort - some LED lights, or a fan, or a motor.  Now and again, there's a kid who takes it to the next step and uses a component in some way that is pretty impressive, or makes a working device of some kind.  Those kids have the attention span, the curiosity, and the drive to take the activity to the next level, and I always encourage them to consider a career in engineering.  

 

All of the kids LOVE this activity.  They love being allowed to use real tools to take things apart.  They love to see what's inside, and get a sense of how the original item worked.  They LOVE that they get to play around with the stuff they learned the year prior in their electricity unit.  They LOVE using all the cool-looking parts to make a "robot invention".  And they particularly LOVE that we can actually power the various parts we salvage, and make them move or make noises or light up in some way.  These kids are younger than Ahmed. I hope they spend a little time building other stuff after our Take Apart project, and I'd love it if they brought it to school when I'm there to show it to me.

[mamaraby]

Dang it, OKbud, now I've got that song in my head!

Lol, I thought I might be the only one. Is Pete Seeger or Malvina Reynolds singing in your head?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Lol, I thought I might be the only one. Is Pete Seeger or Malvina Reynolds singing in your head?

 

Reynolds wrote it. Seeger immortalized it. For a very cool modern take, see Walk Off the Earth's version on Youtube. :)

[mamaraby]

Reynolds wrote it. Seeger immortalized it. For a very cool modern take, see Walk Off the Earth's version on Youtube. :)

Yeah, I know Reynolds wrote it. That's the version that always pops up in my head when I see the song mentioned. Haven't seen the YouTube version, though.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yeah, I know Reynolds wrote it. That's the version that always pops up in my head when I see the song mentioned. Haven't seen the YouTube version, though.

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LM8JhvfoqdA?rel=0&controls=0&showinfo=0"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

 

 

edited to add: Well, shoot. This device isn't letting me embed into the post :/ but the link works. The band is Walk Off the Earth.

[Rosie_0801]

Now, regarding your assertion downplaying the significance of the court: the judges think more highly of themselves and their purview than you are portraying, and were you an Islamic woman going before them, you might not feel that you had the equal protection under the law afforded by US jurisprudence.  

 

You know, lots of these women are Muslim on purpose.

[Ravin]

Lol, I thought I might be the only one. Is Pete Seeger or Malvina Reynolds singing in your head?

Pete Seeger, I think. That song was on a tape my mom would play on road trips as a child.

[Slojo]

Well, it seemed like he thought so because he was calling it his invention.  Maybe he just doesn't know what an invention is?  The last headline I saw on it talked about him creating a clock.  Even you just said "he made one".  But taking my nightstand clock out of its plastic case and putting it in a different case isn't really creating anything.  It sort of just reminded me of my oldest when he puts leaves over a spot on the patio and calls it his "booby trap", or draws a bunch of lines and comes to show me "his diagram", or other "battle plans" and such.  Or when he is stirring up his dinner and then tells me he made soup.  But he's 7, so, yaknow it doesn't seem that weird to me when he pretends to make stuff.  But I could totally see him bringing that to an engineering teacher and the teacher saying, "ooookay".

 

I mean, I certainly wouldn't want to squash this kids interest in opening up clocks, but there were at least a few posts that relegated his tinkering and pretending to a pretty high pedestal of keeping us all safe and being the future and all that.  That and two competing sentiments of "It's just a clock, stop freaking out," and on the other hand he's become the poster boy for STEM education because he "made" a clock.

What is your issue with this kid? Lay off him. Or, better yet, I see that your oldest is 7-- give it 7 years when your child is 14, re-read your words, and see if you'd want some random adult picking at your 14 year old kid. Lay off the kid. Direct your criticism toward adults.

 

I don't have anything against him. Why does it have to be for or against? Isn't that the "tribalism" that another poster was taking about? I've acknowledged in every post that him getting arrested was wrong. I'd be livid if it was my own kid. Is any other discussion or speculation about the incident out of bounds? Is it considered being against him to talk about the merits of bringing clock innards to school in a generic black case and then setting it to go off during an unrelated class? I'd is against him to have any discussion at all, then I'll go back to my previous response: Shouldn't have happened, did happen, was stupid, public school admins can't think for themselves, would be livid if it was my kid.

No - not out of bounds, just besides the point. And, when folks keep harping on something that is besides the point, it feels a little, well... like "haterade."  The parsing of "invention" vs. "remade"; what his daddy does for a living; Sharia law; etc... People are just trying to be nice to a kid who didn't deserve the over-kill response from his school. BTW, I actually don't think the "poster child for STEM" needs to be some genius child. People were encouraging and identifying with the interest and the initiative, not parsing his PSAT scores.  Plenty of generally smart/persistent, but not brilliant, people go on to do great things in the STEM fields or get advanced degrees -- let's assume he's at least in that camp (to do otherwise is a bit petty and small).

 

The clock seems like an appropriate project for a generally bright, but not genius-level - which is where the vast majority of humankind fall - boy who is interested in electronics/science. It's a little bit of a "what the heck, lay off the kid" reaction for me. Again, would you want internet commenters focusing a whole lot of unwarranted criticism against your 14 year old?  If you're going to parse people's actions or words, pick on someone your own size/age! 

 

 

  

 

Two important notes from his own words:

 

The boy does refer to his contraption as an invention.  It would not be surprising to me that the subtleties of "invention" vs. "re-homing the clock mechanism" might be lost on him.  He's 14.  If it is truly "an invention," what does it do, other than what he said, "It's a clock?"  (It kind of gets to the meaning of "invention" (n.).)

 

He knew it would arouse suspicion.  See 1:28.  He took steps to minimize the threat-appearance of it. He knew, at least to some degree, that he might be crossing boundaries.  Pretty typical immaturity, if one believes that *all this is* is a young kid doing something ill-advised.

 

Given who his father is, I'm not buying that it was *just* a young teen acting unwisely.  His father is very astute; very media-saavy, and has chosen to be in the (hopefully) national and international limelight multiple times.  I suspect more than meets the eye, if only to garner attention and better schooling for the kid.

 

In the context of the family's community, it was a really, really, stupid thing to do.  Irving had two sharia-based honor murders a couple years back and has a sharia court.  I don't know if this family identifies with the same group of Islamic people behind the court, but it's a tense situation, and a little more prudence would have helped, unless he *wanted* the attention. 

 

 

I was not equating Ahmed's actions with the court nor with the murders -- read my post, OK?  I was stating that his actions were imprudent, in a normal-for-a-14-year-old kind of way-- in the first place, but moreso in the history and context of his community.   

 

Okay, this line is offensive. I am not a Muslim-American, but I am a member of a community that has on more than one occasion been told to "remember the history and context of my community" (especially during the time in our nation's history when it was commonplace to call grown men and women "boy" and "girl," to deny them service at a restaurant, to arrest them for taking a seat in the wrong place on a bus, to threaten, beat or actually kill them with little to no legal consequence -- but I digress).  Hmm - okay, here is an abridged list of the things that apparently I nor my children can do if we are to be considered prudent "in the context of history and our community":

• Walk to the convenience store to buy candy and an iced tea
• Smoke a cigarette in my vehicle
• Get a flat tire at midnight, have no cell phone/no juice in my cell phone, and go to the nearest house for help
• Go to Harvard, become a really good tennis player (so good as to have been ranked #4 in the world at the peak of my game) and be standing outside a hotel
• Play with a toy gun or just be holding a toy gun in an "open carry state" in which walking around with the real thing is apparently legal 
• Get invited to a swimming pool by a resident of a community, and be "stupid" enough to take them up on the invitation and think that all I was doing was taking a nice dip on a hot summer day
• Wear a hoodie - even if it's a crisp fall day, and a t-shirt would be underdressed and a winter coat would be overdressed for said weather

See how problematic this is? Are you really suggesting that I live in THAT world, so as to be prudent within the context of history and my community? I don't want that world for me and I don't want that world for Ahmed. YOU - if you choose -- are welcomed to live in that world for yourself. I refuse. 

 

Yep. Failure to know one's place in one's community and not get uppity -- when and where are we, again, that anyone should tolerate that?

 

My husband said recently that he thinks we are going backward as a nation, about a million miles per hour. We are increasingly uneducated, small-minded, and superstitious.

 

Yep -- really small minded in lots of corners of this country. It's actually quite scary. 

[Guest]

There are so many good covers of it now, too.

"Ticky tocky."

[Guest]

You know, lots of these women are Muslim on purpose.

 

They've got brains in their heads and feet in their shoes and everything.

[KungFuPanda]

Guys, don't tell me that each one of us doesn't adjust our behavior for the context we are in. We do. I'm going to have different commonsense guidelines for how I act in an airport, in a nice restaurant, at the park, or at a football game.

 

School kids should not bring weird-looking contraptions into schools that have zero-tolerance policies. (Some don't allow bags or lockers at all, others only allow see-through bags.)

My daughter attended a zero-tolerance high school. I once checked her out of the school and drove her around the block while she took a midol because the check-out process was easier than medication paperwork. Her school is very culturally diverse. ANY child could have brought Ahmed's "contraption" to school and suffered ZERO consequences of this type. The nation is ridiculing how this community handled this situation because it is ridiculous. There is no way to reasonably express your very strong feelings that a 14-year-old should somehow know adults fear clocks. There's just no way to spin this as the kid's fault without sounding like part of the problem.

[kitten18]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LM8JhvfoqdA?rel=0&controls=0&showinfo=0"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

 

 

edited to add: Well, shoot. This device isn't letting me embed into the post :/ but the link works. The band is Walk Off the Earth.

Made me think of Weeds which started off set in my town.

[EmseB]

What is your issue with this kid? Lay off him. Or, better yet, I see that your oldest is 7-- give it 7 years when your child is 14, re-read your words, and see if you'd want some random adult picking at your 14 year old kid. Lay off the kid. Direct your criticism toward adults.

This is an excellent way of shutting down discussion. The kid is holding press conferences, posting YouTube videos, being lauded and venerated, and yet there's no discussion allowed of the merits (or lack thereof) of his actions?

 

I rather think letting this kid believe that his clock was an invention or even continuing to insist it was his own construction as a praise of his amazing-ness is a certain kind of cruel. If my kids had done what Ahmed did at any age, I'd probably say,"the inside of a clock looks neat huh? maybe we can get some components and you can build your own, keep working at it!". But, that's also one of the reasons my kids are not in public school; I would not assume it would be ok to cart a box of circuits that apparently make noise from class to class. I wish his engineering teacher had taken it from him for safekeeping. I wish they had let him take it home or to that class. Would have been more sensible.

 

No - not out of bounds, just besides the point. And, when folks keep harping on something that is besides the point, it feels a little, well... like "haterade."

Haterade? To have more than one view to a conversation? The pp was right, this seems exactly like tribalism. If you don't think correctly about the issues, you're outside the tribe and better not say anything, right? Me responding to your post is "harping", but to pile on me for, say, not knowing what a bomb looks like, is to be liked and posted at least a couple more times. Disagreeing with your sentiment is "small minded", but agreeing gets me an A+? If people keep erroneously insisting he made a clock, it's hating on Ahmed to say he didn't? Or question if he did?

 

I'm sorry, I don't have a personal problem with Ahmed, I didn't realize discussing his device was verboten or automatically considered hating on him. I continually asserted what happened to him was wrong. He should not have been arrested. Other than that, what he has put in the public eye seems like it could be objectively discussed in an adult manner without invoking juvenile sentiments like haterade for differences of opinion.

[zoobie]

This is an excellent way of shutting down discussion. The kid is holding press conferences, posting YouTube videos, being lauded and venerated, and yet there's no discussion allowed of the merits (or lack thereof) of his actions?

 

I rather think letting this kid believe that his clock was an invention or even continuing to insist it was his own construction as a praise of his amazing-ness is a certain kind of cruel. If my kids had dune what Ahmed did at any age, I'd probably say,"that looks neat, maybe someday you'll build your own

 

 

Haterade? To have more than one view to a conversation? The pp was right, this seems exactly like tribalism. If you don't think correctly about the issues, you're outside the tribe and better not say anything, right? Me responding to your post is "harping", but to pile on me for, say, not knowing what a bomb looks like, is to be liked and posted at least a couple more times. Disagreeing with your sentiment is "small minded", but agreeing gets me an A+? If people keep erroneously insisting he made a clock, it's hating on Ahmed to say he didn't? Or question if he did?

 

I'm sorry, I don't have a personal problem with Ahmed, I didn't realize discussing his device was verboten or automatically considered hating on him. I continually asserted what happened to him was wrong. He should not have been arrested. Other than that, what he has put in the public eye seems like it could be objectively discussed in an adult manner without invoking juvenile sentiments like haterade for differences of opinion.

Ahmed isn't claiming to be a genius. He didn't claim to build a device that would save mankind. He made a clock and called it a clock. He also called the clock his "invention." That's just a phrase. My kids build random crap out of Legos and call them inventions. They're not saying they invented Legos. It means he built it. He's 14, and he was interviewed after hours of being interrogated by police and marched through his school in handcuffs. I doubt I could be as calm and coherent now at 40 as he has been at 14. Could you? What were you producing at 14? With whom did you share your work? I brought poems instead of clocks to my favorite teacher. I'm sure they were terrible, but I was proud of them. I didn't think I was going to be the next poet laureate of the United States; I was trying to connect with a person I admired for some feedback. Thank goodness the Internet didn't get to dissect the worthiness of my writing!

[Murphy101]

This is an excellent way of shutting down discussion. The kid is holding press conferences, posting YouTube videos, being lauded and venerated, and yet there's no discussion allowed of the merits (or lack thereof) of his actions?

 

I rather think letting this kid believe that his clock was an invention or even continuing to insist it was his own construction as a praise of his amazing-ness is a certain kind of cruel. If my kids had dune what Ahmed did at any age, I'd probably say,"that looks neat, maybe someday you'll build your own

No. There isn't any room for that in this discussion.

Because. It. Does. Not. Matter.

Because. It . Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. This.

 

Listen.

 

This kid *could* be a total moron.

This kid *could* be a right rat bastard of a person.

This kid *could* be or have parents who are opportunitistic jerks.

This kid and his family *could* be somehow tied to Isis.

 

There's no evidence to my mind about any of that, but even if there were, it still would not matter one bit.

 

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

 

Kid brings clock (even a piece of crap clock, even a butt nugget jerk kid) to school to show to his science teacher.

 

Teachers/school could say and do a many things. Praise his curiosity. Show him improvements to be made. Put it away afterwards so it isn't a class distraction. Sure. Fine. Great.

 

Teachers/school cannot reasonably lose their freaking minds like a bunch of idiots and actually suggest perpetuating their stupidity on the community and the next generation by saying it will now ban clocks at school and have this child interrogated and arrested by police. Not because they ever felt they were in any danger, they admit they were not, but bc a clock and interest in how clocks work is unacceptable behavior of a student at school.

 

And yes, every time you keep going on about how the kid really isn't that smart or really is that smart and was actually somehow a conniving opportunist - yes, that comes across as just hating on this dark skinned kid named Ahmed. Because even if he was those things - it does not matter. And focusing on that instead of the actual real issue and facts implies that you are only interested in putting a dark skinned boy in his place. You are completely allowed that view. Have at it. It's a sorta free country for the most part, so you can do that.

 

But it has nothing to do with whether what was done to him was right or wrong and it does not excuse what was done or make him somehow to blame for it.

[amsunshine]

This is an excellent way of shutting down discussion. The kid is holding press conferences, posting YouTube videos, being lauded and venerated, and yet there's no discussion allowed of the merits (or lack thereof) of his actions?

 

I rather think letting this kid believe that his clock was an invention or even continuing to insist it was his own construction as a praise of his amazing-ness is a certain kind of cruel. If my kids had done what Ahmed did at any age, I'd probably say,"the inside of a clock looks neat huh? maybe we can get some components and you can build your own, keep working at it!". But, that's also one of the reasons my kids are not in public school; I would not assume it would be ok to cart a box of circuits that apparently make noise from class to class. I wish his engineering teacher had taken it from him for safekeeping. I wish they had let him take it home or to that class. Would have been more sensible.

 

Haterade? To have more than one view to a conversation? The pp was right, this seems exactly like tribalism. If you don't think correctly about the issues, you're outside the tribe and better not say anything, right? Me responding to your post is "harping", but to pile on me for, say, not knowing what a bomb looks like, is to be liked and posted at least a couple more times. Disagreeing with your sentiment is "small minded", but agreeing gets me an A+? If people keep erroneously insisting he made a clock, it's hating on Ahmed to say he didn't? Or question if he did?

 

I'm sorry, I don't have a personal problem with Ahmed, I didn't realize discussing his device was verboten or automatically considered hating on him. I continually asserted what happened to him was wrong. He should not have been arrested. Other than that, what he has put in the public eye seems like it could be objectively discussed in an adult manner without invoking juvenile sentiments like haterade for differences of opinion.

 

 

I'll try to say this gently -- the "view" you expressed was essentially a personal attack on the kid and his intelligence/creativity (or lack thereof), and had nothing to do with the actual merits of how the adults behaved in this situation.  Those in the media who have no valid point to make in support of the adults' behavior here will resort to personal attacks on the kid by picking apart and criticizing/ridiculing the clock, his family, etc.  It's not because those are valid statements or logical arguments.  It's because that's what people do when they have no good argument otherwise -- they resort to personal attacks. 

 

So, yes, it's appropriate to avoid personal attacks that have no actual relevance to a discussion of the merits of what happened in this case.  You say you don't have a personal problem with Ahmed, but your words suggested otherwise.

[Mergath]

This is an excellent way of shutting down discussion. The kid is holding press conferences, posting YouTube videos, being lauded and venerated, and yet there's no discussion allowed of the merits (or lack thereof) of his actions?

 

I rather think letting this kid believe that his clock was an invention or even continuing to insist it was his own construction as a praise of his amazing-ness is a certain kind of cruel. If my kids had done what Ahmed did at any age, I'd probably say,"the inside of a clock looks neat huh? maybe we can get some components and you can build your own, keep working at it!". But, that's also one of the reasons my kids are not in public school; I would not assume it would be ok to cart a box of circuits that apparently make noise from class to class. I wish his engineering teacher had taken it from him for safekeeping. I wish they had let him take it home or to that class. Would have been more sensible.

 

Haterade? To have more than one view to a conversation? The pp was right, this seems exactly like tribalism. If you don't think correctly about the issues, you're outside the tribe and better not say anything, right? Me responding to your post is "harping", but to pile on me for, say, not knowing what a bomb looks like, is to be liked and posted at least a couple more times. Disagreeing with your sentiment is "small minded", but agreeing gets me an A+? If people keep erroneously insisting he made a clock, it's hating on Ahmed to say he didn't? Or question if he did?

 

I'm sorry, I don't have a personal problem with Ahmed, I didn't realize discussing his device was verboten or automatically considered hating on him. I continually asserted what happened to him was wrong. He should not have been arrested. Other than that, what he has put in the public eye seems like it could be objectively discussed in an adult manner without invoking juvenile sentiments like haterade for differences of opinion.

 

He's being lauded because he was unbelievably calm when he was arrested at fourteen for doing nothing wrong. That's all. Whether he's some kind of STEM genius or not has zero relevance here. 

 

Well, unless you're trying to find any way you can to tear the kid down simply because he's Muslim. 

 

Did you miss the part where he's only fourteen? He didn't choose for this to happen, and he's only a kid. Publicly bashing him because his clock isn't original enough is cruel. Fourteen is a hard enough age without having adults you've never even met picking on you.

 

If he was an adult? Fine, go ahead and bash his clock if it makes you feel better. But he's a kid. Show a little restraint.

[Guest]

Picking on him for calling his clock "an invention" when you and everyone else VERY OBVIOUSLY knows he did not invent clocks isn't "objectively discussing in an adult manner."

[Free]

I rather think letting this kid believe that his clock was an invention or even continuing to insist it was his own construction as a praise of his amazing-ness is a certain kind of cruel.

 

Well firstly, I am pretty damn sure the kid does not think he "invented" a clock, for goodness sake!!! He may have said so in an interview or two, but then even Presidents & CEOs are known to trip on words sometimes. When somebody dissects a child's words to this extent, I do not know what else to call this but mean spirited pettiness.

 

And then to critique a complete stranger's work on the internet based off a grainy photo when a few pages back you admitted you did not know enough electronics to differentiate between a clock and a bomb? I don't know what to call that either.

 

I'm sorry, I don't have a personal problem with Ahmed, I didn't realize discussing his device was verboten or automatically considered hating on him.

 

And what need is there to discuss the boy's device? Unless one resents his sudden fame and wants to tear him down?

 

Other than that, what he has put in the public eye seems like it could be objectively discussed in an adult manner.

 

Sorry, Ahmed did not put anything up to the public, nor did he seek the horde of internet armchair experts to critique his device. The clock, from what I read was still in police custody.

 

He is a 14 year old boy whose hand-cuffed picture was tweeted by his sister, which then went viral. His international fame is not the work of some evil genius mastermind.

 

He may be sure be basking in the spotlight for now. But then, so what? I am happy for him. I am happy that a really ugly situation was turned around by the generous people who supported him and sent him some really cool invitations and freebies. I was reading an interview with him where he seemed to freaking out about "going viral" and that made me laugh. Because I have a 14 year old myself and I can relate to this boy.

 

I would rather, a boy called Ahmed who showed passion and interest, get his 15 mins of fame, than the Kim Davises and the Jareds and the Duggars of this world.

[MSNative]

Honestly, the schools here are always doing over-reactive, lack-of-common-sense, over-the-top nonsense like that here. It's like they had to trade in their common sense to get their education degree.

Ugh. I so agree. While following this story I read about several other incidents.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730454/Teen-suspended-saying-bless-student-sneezed.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/6-school-suspensions_n_4136563.html

 

There has to be some level of common sense at some point.

 

(I did try to make sure no one else had posted these but I may have missed some posts. Sorry. I was catching up and may have scrolled right past)

[MSNative]

Dp

[Slojo]

This is an excellent way of shutting down discussion. The kid is holding press conferences, posting YouTube videos, being lauded and venerated, and yet there's no discussion allowed of the merits (or lack thereof) of his actions?

 

I rather think letting this kid believe that his clock was an invention or even continuing to insist it was his own construction as a praise of his amazing-ness is a certain kind of cruel. If my kids had done what Ahmed did at any age, I'd probably say,"the inside of a clock looks neat huh? maybe we can get some components and you can build your own, keep working at it!". But, that's also one of the reasons my kids are not in public school; I would not assume it would be ok to cart a box of circuits that apparently make noise from class to class. I wish his engineering teacher had taken it from him for safekeeping. I wish they had let him take it home or to that class. Would have been more sensible.

 

Haterade? To have more than one view to a conversation? The pp was right, this seems exactly like tribalism. If you don't think correctly about the issues, you're outside the tribe and better not say anything, right? Me responding to your post is "harping", but to pile on me for, say, not knowing what a bomb looks like, is to be liked and posted at least a couple more times. Disagreeing with your sentiment is "small minded", but agreeing gets me an A+? If people keep erroneously insisting he made a clock, it's hating on Ahmed to say he didn't? Or question if he did?

 

I'm sorry, I don't have a personal problem with Ahmed, I didn't realize discussing his device was verboten or automatically considered hating on him. I continually asserted what happened to him was wrong. He should not have been arrested. Other than that, what he has put in the public eye seems like it could be objectively discussed in an adult manner without invoking juvenile sentiments like haterade for differences of opinion.

 

Hi Jodi Sue. I was going to try to come up with a thoughtful response to your assertion that the conversation was being shut down. But others have articulated it eloquently. So, THIS:

 

No. There isn't any room for that in this discussion.

Because. It. Does. Not. Matter.

Because. It . Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. This.

 

...And yes, every time you keep going on about how the kid really isn't that smart or really is that smart and was actually somehow a conniving opportunist - yes, that comes across as just hating on this dark skinned kid named Ahmed. Because even if he was those things - it does not matter. And focusing on that instead of the actual real issue and facts implies that you are only interested in putting a dark skinned boy in his place. You are completely allowed that view. Have at it. It's a sorta free country for the most part, so you can do that.

 

But it has nothing to do with whether what was done to him was right or wrong and it does not excuse what was done or make him somehow to blame for it.

 

THIS...

I'll try to say this gently -- the "view" you expressed was essentially a personal attack on the kid and his intelligence/creativity (or lack thereof), and had nothing to do with the actual merits of how the adults behaved in this situation.  Those in the media who have no valid point to make in support of the adults' behavior here will resort to personal attacks on the kid by picking apart and criticizing/ridiculing the clock, his family, etc.  It's not because those are valid statements or logical arguments.  It's because that's what people do when they have no good argument otherwise -- they resort to personal attacks. 

 

 

THIS...

He's being lauded because he was unbelievably calm when he was arrested at fourteen for doing nothing wrong. That's all. Whether he's some kind of STEM genius or not has zero relevance here. 

 

Did you miss the part where he's only fourteen? He didn't choose for this to happen, and he's only a kid. Publicly bashing him because his clock isn't original enough is cruel. Fourteen is a hard enough age without having adults you've never even met picking on you.

 

If he was an adult? Fine, go ahead and bash his clock if it makes you feel better. But he's a kid. Show a little restraint.

 

AND THIS...

 

 

Well firstly, I am pretty damn sure the kid does not think he "invented" a clock, for goodness sake!!! He may have said so in an interview or two, but then even Presidents & CEOs are known to trip on words sometimes. When somebody dissects a child's words to this extent, I do not know what else to call this but mean spirited pettiness.

 

And then to critique a complete stranger's work on the internet based off a grainy photo when a few pages back you admitted you did not know enough electronics to differentiate between a clock and a bomb? I don't know what to call that either.

 

 

And what need is there to discuss the boy's device? Unless one resents his sudden fame and wants to tear him down?

 

Sorry, Ahmed did not put anything up to the public, nor did he seek the horde of internet armchair experts to critique his device...

 

He is a 14 year old boy whose hand-cuffed picture was tweeted by his sister, which then went viral. His international fame is not the work of some evil genius mastermind.

 

He may be sure be basking in the spotlight for now. But then, so what? I am happy for him. I am happy that a really ugly situation was turned around by the generous people who supported him and sent him some really cool invitations and freebies. I was reading an interview with him where he seemed to freaking out about "going viral" and that made me laugh. Because I have a 14 year old myself and I can relate to this boy...

 

 

 

So what I am asking is if you can see anything in this boy that might remind you of your own children, and if so, if you can take a step back and say, "This boy doesn't deserve me picking him apart. I'd want that same courtesy and kindness extended to my own." He's only 14... and if I were 14 and had lived in an internet age where adults who don't even know me were insinuating that I (or my parents) were charlatans, opportunists, not particularly intelligent or creative, etc... I'd be devastated - such is the psychology of 14 year olds. I can only trust and hope that his parents are keeping him from the comments section of the many news stories on the incident.  Some of the comments are truly nasty and unwarranted. On this board, I am calling on us to be better than that. There's a reason for the term "kid gloves." So sure, you can criticize the kid and the merits of his actions. You have every right, but, yeah -- I'm squarely in the "lay off the kids" camp on this one. You don't have to be. Feel free to parse every word, action and gesture the kid makes, but don't expect any "magnanimous spirit" accolades to come your way anytime soon. 

 

And I'm honestly getting lost as to which of his actions supposedly did or didn't "have merit" given that he didn't enter the clock into a competition, he did not wake up that day to calculate "Okay, I'm going to get up, take a clock that might be mistaken for a bomb to school, get arrested, and wait for the media blitz to arrive...", and mostly because he reminds me of the 'one foot still in childhood-ness' of my fourteen-year-old niece who sometimes seems so grown up, but still occasionally plays with dolls, is scared to go into the basement by herself to get the laundry, and likes to eat Flaming Hot Cheetos. A. KID. You have some of those -- may as much grace and kindness, and -- yes -- occasional, thoughtful, developmentally-informed, BUT on-point criticism WHERE warranted meet them in every place (including the internet) where adults should be reasonably assumed to care about their positive growth and development. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Hi Jodi Sue. I was going to try to come up with a thoughtful response to your assertion that the conversation was being shut down. But others have articulated it eloquently. So, THIS:

 

 

THIS...

 

THIS...

 

AND THIS...

 

So what I am asking is if you can see anything in this boy that might remind you of your own children, and if so, if you can take a step back and say, "This boy doesn't deserve me picking him apart. I'd want that same courtesy and kindness extended to my own." He's only 14... and if I were 14 and had lived in an internet age where adults who don't even know me were insinuating that I (or my parents) were charlatans, opportunists, not particularly intelligent or creative, etc... I'd be devastated - such is the psychology of 14 year olds. I can only trust and hope that his parents are keeping him from the comments section of the many news stories on the incident.  Some of the comments are truly nasty and unwarranted. On this board, I am calling on us to be better than that. There's a reason for the term "kid gloves." So sure, you can criticize the kid and the merits of his actions. You have every right, but, yeah -- I'm squarely in the "lay off the kids" camp on this one. You don't have to be. Feel free to parse every word, action and gesture the kid makes, but don't expect any "magnanimous spirit" accolades to come your way anytime soon. 

 

And I'm honestly getting lost as to which of his actions supposedly did or didn't "have merit" given that he didn't enter the clock into a competition, he did not wake up that day to calculate "Okay, I'm going to get up, take a clock that might be mistaken for a bomb to school, get arrested, and wait for the media blitz to arrive...", and mostly because he reminds me of the 'one foot still in childhood-ness' of my fourteen-year-old niece who sometimes seems so grown up, but still occasionally plays with dolls, is scared to go into the basement by herself to get the laundry, and likes to eat Flaming Hot Cheetos. A. KID. You have some of those -- may as much grace and kindness, and -- yes -- occasional, thoughtful, developmentally-informed, BUT on-point criticism WHERE warranted meet them in every place (including the internet) where adults should be reasonably assumed to care about their positive growth and development. 

Yes.  Except that kid gloves are made out of kid (baby goat) skin.  

[Slojo]

Yes.  Except that kid gloves are made out of kid (baby goat) skin.  

Yes. To be sure. The meaning, I think, still holds - careful and more delicate treatment than usual. 

[Rosie_0801]

Oh, we can mow down the tall poppies. Or we can grow tall too.

[unsinkable]

Ugh. I so agree. While following this story I read about several other incidents.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730454/Teen-suspended-saying-bless-student-sneezed.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/6-school-suspensions_n_4136563.html

 

There has to be some level of common sense at some point.

 

(I did try to make sure no one else had posted these but I may have missed some posts. Sorry. I was catching up and may have scrolled right past)

"Cool Pop Tart, Josh! Want to bring it to the White House? We should inspire more kids like you to like Pop Tart Art. It's what makes America great."

[ChocolateReignRemix]

"Cool Pop Tart, Josh! Want to bring it to the White House? We should inspire more kids like you to like Pop Tart Art. It's what makes America great."

 

So what point do you think you are making with that comment?  I know how I am reading it but I am curious as to the actual intent.

[unsinkable]

So what point do you think you are making with that comment? I know how I am reading it but I am curious as to the actual intent.

Oh, I'm just dying to to know YOUR opinion of what point I made.

 

:lol:

 

Please share. Do.

[Murphy101]

"Cool Pop Tart, Josh! Want to bring it to the White House? We should inspire more kids like you to like Pop Tart Art. It's what makes America great."

It seems to me your point is that you think pop tart art is stupid and to be ridiculed?

Or that I'd Ahmed had been white, no one would be making these offers to him?

 

Sadly, that's probably true.

 

I guess I'm more jaded than everyone else.

 

I think Ahmed is getting the level of attention he is simply bc it's an election year and everyone, politician or not, likes free publicity.

 

Which doesn't make how Ahmed was treated was okay.

 

Which doesn't mean Ahmed is a genius.

 

Which doesn't mean I don't hope Ahmed makes very good use of the opportunities he is being given.

 

It just means... Nothing complimentary about modern America schools or politics?

[SKL]

Maybe this has been brought up further down the the thread and I apologize if it has been. Yesterday on NPR, when they explained that the science teacher told Ahmed not to show anyone, the boy insisted he wanted to show the English teacher because he had a bond with this person and he was really excited about his invention. That to me was one of the more soul-crushing components in this story. It was a bond betrayed. The boy's life will never be the same.

 

 

OK, this is completely different from the original story, where supposedly the thing was in his backpack and the alarm went off unexpectedly etc.

 

Given that there is no way to know the school's side of the story, and Ahmed's has changed at least a couple of times, I am not sure what to think.

 

I think the cuffs were probably overkill - but then again, I don't know what I don't know.

 

I do know that Islamophobia is real, and probably not rare in Texas.  And no, I don't believe Ahmed at age 14 has a duty to adjust his choices based on whatever context exists in his community, unless there was something really overt and in his face, which is unlikely.  But on the other hand, it is strange how we Americans are so ready to connect the dots and fill in the facts we don't know.  To the point of making this kid a hero based on no facts.

 

Someone said "he was so calm when this happened."  How do we even know that?  We don't.  Maybe he was.  Maybe he wasn't.

 

The way information is reported in this country is just scary.