A lengthy Duggar/Gothard article

[Pawz4me]

Here

 

I can't keep up with all the details of this stuff like a lot of you do, but it seems to me that's a pretty thorough summary.

[mommaduck]

Subbing to read.

[Guest]

Wow. I have not read the whole article, but am particularly struck by this:

 

The Wisdom Booklets were also designed to give ATI families a sense of godly superiority. The very first one, for example, suggests a family outing to a supermarket parking lot in order to “to develop the spiritual skill of ‘seeing’ people as Jesus saw them.†The booklet gives examples of how when one carefully observes strangers, one can perceive, for example, that a teenage boy had “low esteem of himself by the way he dressed and by his appearance,†or that his eyes and dress display “a spirit of rebellion toward authority.†Or one could discern “that the young woman walking toward the store has the attire of an immoral woman,†and that she needed “to overcome bitterness toward those who have wronged her.â€

Interesting exercise. I don't imagine anyone managed to make correct inferences about what was going on with Josh from how he combs his hair...

[TranquilMind]

Wow. I have not read the whole article, but am particularly struck by this:

 

 

Interesting exercise. I don't imagine anyone managed to make correct inferences about what was going on with Josh from how he combs his hair...

I can't read it without subscribing to TPM prime, whatever that is.

Can you post it?

 

That said, your quote (which seems to have disappeared since it was inside a quote) sounds pretty biased.  I doubt the booklets were "intended" to impart a sense of superiority, even if that is how this reader sees it now. 

I'd like to read it. 

[Katy]

Ugh, did Jill really say None of the victims knew until Josh confessed?

 

I read the police report.  Maybe that was true for the first incident, but not the second.

[EmseB]

I can't read it without subscribing to TPM prime, whatever that is.

Can you post it?

 

That said, your quote (which seems to have disappeared since it was inside a quote) sounds pretty biased.  I doubt the booklets were "intended" to impart a sense of superiority, even if that is how this reader sees it now. 

I'd like to read it. 

 

No, they absolutely were.  I have looked over a little bit of stuff and that was exactly the kind of attitude and exercise in judgement that went on.  Even within the organization itself -- if men had long hair or grew beards, they were considered ungodly or having a rebellious spirit.  The danger of ATI is exactly this -- it was all about external legalities and gave those who could look the part a very big sense of superiority over those who didn't or couldn't.

 

You're correct in one sense -- I doubt Gothard would say that the booklets were intended to impart a sense of superiority, but that is exactly what they did, and it was/is embedded in the ATI culture.  I've heard of people getting chided for carrying around an NIV Bible instead of KJV.  In some circles it was that bad or worse.

[albeto.]

I can't read it without subscribing to TPM prime, whatever that is.

Can you post it?

 

That said, your quote (which seems to have disappeared since it was inside a quote) sounds pretty biased.  I doubt the booklets were "intended" to impart a sense of superiority, even if that is how this reader sees it now. 

I'd like to read it. 

 

What would you call it when one is encouraged to judge biblical moral standards against "worldly" moral standards? 

 

How could it not be understood to be superior? Whose moral behavior would be superior to the ones god sanctions?

 

 

[Maybe try the link again. I got the same message as you - to be registered - but then it showed up and I'm not registered either.]

[Sneezyone]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/duggars-bill-gothard-iblp?utm_content=buffer7501c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[TranquilMind]

No, they absolutely were.  I have looked over a little bit of stuff and that was exactly the kind of attitude and exercise in judgement that went on.  Even within the organization itself -- if men had long hair or grew beards, they were considered ungodly or having a rebellious spirit.  The danger of ATI is exactly this -- it was all about external legalities and gave those who could look the part a very big sense of superiority over those who didn't or couldn't.

 

You're correct in one sense -- I doubt Gothard would say that the booklets were intended to impart a sense of superiority, but that is exactly what they did, and it was/is embedded in the ATI culture.  I've heard of people getting chided for carrying around an NIV Bible instead of KJV.  In some circles it was that bad or worse.

I'd like to see them, or at least the article. 

 

I agree that legalism is very dangerous, because it always backfires. 

 

You KNOW I'd intentionally carry around that NIV unapologetically (though I prefer another unapproved version, the RSV).  ;)

[TranquilMind]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/duggars-bill-gothard-iblp?utm_content=buffer7501c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Nope.  Still have to be registered as a member of TPI Prime.    But thanks for trying. 

[Guest]

I can't read it without subscribing to TPM prime, whatever that is.

Can you post it?

 

That said, your quote (which seems to have disappeared since it was inside a quote) sounds pretty biased. I doubt the booklets were "intended" to impart a sense of superiority, even if that is how this reader sees it now.

I'd like to read it.

This is the title and author of the article:

Inside The Duggars' Deep Ties With A Once-Powerful, Now-Scorned Ministry

BySARAH POSNER | SEPTEMBER 10, 2015

 

Is that what you're asking? I can't post the entire article in a paste.

[TranquilMind]

What would you call it when one is encouraged to judge biblical moral standards against "worldly" moral standards? 

 

How could it not be understood to be superior? Whose moral behavior would be superior to the ones god sanctions?

 

 

[Maybe try the link again. I got the same message as you - to be registered - but then it showed up and I'm not registered either.]

I would understand that it was stating that one standard was preferable to the other, for those who are in Christ.

 

I may or may not agree with anything in particular the booklets said, but I'd have sufficient grounds on which to make a judgment biblically. 

 

 

We do it every single day.  We tell our kids not to act like a bunch of screaming hyenas (or whatever term of choice we use), and to settle down so they don't disturb others.  We have decided that one standard of behavior is preferable over another when we go to (fill in the blank). 

 

That doesn't mean we are stating that we are morally superior people because we have chosen a standard of behavior to which we adhere, religious or not. 

[TranquilMind]

This is the title and author of the article:

Inside The Duggars' Deep Ties With A Once-Powerful, Now-Scorned Ministry

BySARAH POSNER | SEPTEMBER 10, 2015

 

Is that what you're asking? I can't post the entire article in a paste.

All locked down.  I tried, though. 

[Guest]

All locked down. I tried, though.

That's so very odd to me. I'm not a prime member or whatever, as far as I know.

[Pawz4me]

I don't know why it would say you need to subscribe. I didn't have to.

[TranquilMind]

That's so very odd to me. I'm not a prime member or whatever, as far as I know.

Well, that's weird.  I did just run a malwarebytes scan. I wonder what else happened. 

[Corraleno]

Seriously disturbing stuff. :( 
 

Leigh was charged with helping to select potential recruits for an IBLP youth program, Journey to the Heart. She learned what kind of young people Gothard liked when he asked her to peruse a file of ATI family photos. “He said to look for girls that looked wholesome and had good charisma, like a good personality about them,†she said. “And yes, pictures he liked were of pretty girls.†Leigh said he also looked for girls who were troubled. His “whole sick approach,†Leigh said, was to pursue girls who “had issues†because he was looking for girls to “disciple†(mentor).

 

Leigh had been raped as a child, and Gothard “counseled†her personally about it. The “counseling,†she said, consisted of blaming her for being raped because she wasn’t wearing modest clothing, had “lustful thoughts,†and “didn’t cry out to God†to stop her rapist.

 

“He told me the sin—the pain I felt in my heart over the years—was because of my sin in it,†she said. “So he had me confess my sin for being raped as a child.â€

 

“We just trusted him, I guess,†Leigh continued. “He would listen to my story, get physically close, get me to try to cry into his chest.†That made her uncomfortable, she said, but she “grew up believing he was infallible.â€

 

Leigh recalled other instances of familial sexual abuse in ATI families that were brought to Gothard’s attention during the three years she worked for him between 2006 and 2009. “I would help him counsel girls who had been sexually abused by family members,†she said. “That was not an uncommon thing. He would counsel them with that [same] material, he would immediately send them home and never report the offenders [to authorities].†Mark said he knew others who had received that same “counseling,†including a girl who had been raped by her uncle when she was five.

 

 

[Cindy in FL.]

I thought it was an interesting read and appreciate you linking it.

[Corraleno]

What a sick SOB:
 

His strangest and most onerous demand was that the young women get on their hands and knees and clean stains out of the carpets with a rag or a spoon.

 

“I knew that it was the bane of existence for a lot of these girls,†said Mark, who worked at the Indianapolis facility in the 1990s, including at one point as head of maintenance. “Their hands ached, their knees ached, their backs ached doing this.â€

 

One day, Mark said, after he cleaned the carpets himself with an industrial cleaner, Gothard visited the center and was “livid†to see no girls cleaning it by hand. He ordered center leadership staff to round up some girls to start cleaning. â€œIt was something that [Gothard] just wanted to see,†Mark said. “He didn’t care that I would come at night and clean that carpet and get rid of all the spots. He wanted to see the girls on their hands and knees scrubbing with spoons.† 

 

[albeto.]

I would understand that it was stating that one standard was preferable to the other, for those who are in Christ.

 

I may or may not agree with anything in particular the booklets said, but I'd have sufficient grounds on which to make a judgment biblically. 

 

 

We do it every single day.  We tell our kids not to act like a bunch of screaming hyenas (or whatever term of choice we use), and to settle down so they don't disturb others.  We have decided that one standard of behavior is preferable over another when we go to (fill in the blank). 

 

That doesn't mean we are stating that we are morally superior people because we have chosen a standard of behavior to which we adhere, religious or not. 

 

I'm not sure that I would see being calm in public a moral behavior, but for the most part I agree with you. I think the difference is Gotthard does own the whole superiority complex thing, though. I think he supports in through ATI, or at least what little I've seen floating around the web. But I could be wrong. 

[Corraleno]

That said, your quote (which seems to have disappeared since it was inside a quote) sounds pretty biased.  I doubt the booklets were "intended" to impart a sense of superiority, even if that is how this reader sees it now. 

 

The info about the "supermarket exercise" came from a former member of ATI, who worked at the headquarters:

 

The Wisdom Booklets were also designed to give ATI families a sense of godly superiority. The very first one, for example, suggests a family outing to a supermarket parking lot in order to “to develop the spiritual skill of ‘seeing’ people as Jesus saw them.†The booklet gives examples of how when one carefully observes strangers, one can perceive, for example, that a teenage boy had “low esteem of himself by the way he dressed and by his appearance,†or that his eyes and dress display “a spirit of rebellion toward authority.†Or one could discern “that the young woman walking toward the store has the attire of an immoral woman,†and that she needed “to overcome bitterness toward those who have wronged her.â€

 

The supermarket parking lot assignment, said Mark, was “an exercise in judging,†part of the ATI mentality that “everyone else is wrong and we are elite.â€

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Debi Pearl, in her bizarre marriage mainfesto, "Created to Be His Helpmeet," included a section in which she sat in the Walmart parking lot judging women by how they looked at their husbands, and by what they wore (of course). It's a favorite sport of these types of people, I guess.

[Mimm]

 

Though IBLP hasn’t rebounded to its glory days, many recent enrollments were loyal viewers who’d been inspired by the show, according to Leigh, who has discussed the matter with recent staffers at IBLP headquarters. As depicted by TLC, the Duggars were a loving, virtuous family—and their biggest fans wanted to know their secret.

“People weren’t joining ATI in the past five years because of Bill Gothard,†said John Cornish, spokesman for the website Recovering Grace, which gathers and publishes former ATI members’ accounts of abuse by Gothard. “They were joining because they had seen the Duggars on TV and wanted to live like them.â€

 

And this is why so many people spoke out against the Duggars before the Josh stuff happened. The Duggars made a dangerous organization and set of beliefs look appealing and nice and happy. And every time someone said, "Why not just leave them alone. It seems to work for them, the kids look happy." :glare:  Because being capable of smiling on tv is a litmus test for happy and healthy and sane.

[TravelingChris]

That supermarket exercise is so contradictory to my view of true Christianity to me.  It doesn't seem to have anything to do with behavior like judging someone who smashes a shopping cart into a car but rather an exercise in judging people based on their appearances. Somehow, this doesn't seem to me to be something Jesus would want us to do like those bracelets a few years ago had on them WWJD.

[Rosie_0801]

Debi Pearl, in her bizarre marriage mainfesto, "Created to Be His Helpmeet," included a section in which she sat in the Walmart parking lot judging women by how they looked at their husbands, and by what they wore (of course). It's a favorite sport of these types of people, I guess.

 

I wonder if it is possible to get it right unless you are someone she already knows from church.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I wonder if it is possible to get it right unless you are someone she already knows from church.

 

There was an algorithm to it, that I could not decipher. One gal passed muster even though her outfit was tacky, because she looked starry-eyed and subservient toward her man...

 

I still can't believe those people sold even one copy of that book.

[Rosie_0801]

I guess they have to get their self esteem somewhere. They aren't going to get it at home.

[Onceuponatime]

I had a close personal friend in ATI who talked to me about judging other Christians as "carnal." Carnal Christian women wore pants and worked outside the home. Generally, carnal christians read popular novels, listened to non- christian music, and watched popular movies and television shows.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I wonder if it is possible to get it right unless you are someone who already bought her books..

 

FYP (fixed your post)

[PrincessMommy]

Debi Pearl, in her bizarre marriage mainfesto, "Created to Be His Helpmeet," included a section in which she sat in the Walmart parking lot judging women by how they looked at their husbands, and by what they wore (of course). It's a favorite sport of these types of people, I guess.

 

I don't get it... what is the purpose for this exercise?  What are they supposed to be learning by judging people only by their looks?

[PeachyDoodle]

I know my housekeeping skills are sub-par, but would someone please tell me how on Earth you clean a carpet with a spoon??? :confused:

 

What a lunatic...
 

[Rosie_0801]

I know my housekeeping skills are sub-par, but would someone please tell me how on Earth you clean a carpet with a spoon??? :confused:

 

What a lunatic...

 

 

Well, you are on your hands and knees with your attractive young backside available for prime viewing...

 

I think that's all there is to it.

[Carol in Cal.]

I had a close personal friend in ATI who talked to me about judging other Christians as "carnal." Carnal Christian women wore pants and worked outside the home. Generally, carnal christians read popular novels, listened to non- christian music, and watched popular movies and television shows.

Ah!

So that's what I am!

 

Carnal Carol in Cal.

 

Hmmm.

 

It has a nice ring to it.

 

Wear pants?  check

Worked outside the home?  check

Read popular novels?  check

Listened to non-Christian music?  check

Watched popular movies?  check

 

Wait.

 

Television?  I hate television.  

 

Drat.  

 

A failure at carnality, that's me.

[Tanaqui]

Homeschooler's Anonymous has PDFs of some (all?) of the ATI Wisdom Booklets, so you can google for that if necessary.

[Word Nerd]

Well, you are on your hands and knees with your attractive young backside available for prime viewing...

 

I think that's all there is to it.

Yup. A spoon, a toothpick, whatever. Actually cleaning isn't the point of the exercise.

[displace]

Homeschooler's Anonymous has PDFs of some (all?) of the ATI Wisdom Booklets, so you can google for that if necessary.

That's a rabbit trail I could waste days on. Wow.

[TranquilMind]

Debi Pearl, in her bizarre marriage mainfesto, "Created to Be His Helpmeet," included a section in which she sat in the Walmart parking lot judging women by how they looked at their husbands, and by what they wore (of course). It's a favorite sport of these types of people, I guess.

I read that some years ago and do not recall anything like this.  Where?

Was she just attempting to determine whether they were happy or not, and whether or not that showed?  Or was she pronouncing some kind of final judgment from God upon them? 

 

 

[PeachyDoodle]

Yup. A spoon, a toothpick, whatever. Actually cleaning isn't the point of the exercise.

 

FTR, I'm not completely naive, LOL. Rag, I could see. Toothbrush, even. Just seems like even total scumbags would be smart enough to pick something that it would actually be possible to clean with!

 

On second thought, maybe I am naive... :glare:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I read that some years ago and do not recall anything like this.  Where?

Was she just attempting to determine whether they were happy or not, and whether or not that showed?  Or was she pronouncing some kind of final judgment from God upon them? 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, my copy of the book caught on fire. I can't look up any references.

 

I don't remember which chapter, nor what Debi Pearl's goal was.

 

[Tangerine]

I firmly believe that Bill picked me out because I had a single Mom and my ears were double pierced and he thought I had the makings of a good victim. Turns out I was uppity as hell and he made me leave headquarters.

[bolt.]

Good for you! "Uppity as hell" for the win!

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm sorry, my copy of the book caught on fire. 

LOL

[Carol in Cal.]

Carol in Cal., carnality failure, uppity as hell. 

 

 

Hmm.  

 

 

I LIKE it!

[Tangerine]

There was an algorithm to it, that I could not decipher. One gal passed muster even though her outfit was tacky, because she looked starry-eyed and subservient toward her man...

 

I still can't believe those people sold even one copy of that book.

I know you're talking Pearl, but at IBLP there was definitely a weird sort of system to the clothing. Having things covered just didn't cut it. Your style had to be dated and with no individuality to it. We didn't have any husbands to look starry-eyed at yet. We were in training.

[PrincessMommy]

I firmly believe that Bill picked me out because I had a single Mom and my ears were double pierced and he thought I had the makings of a good victim. Turns out I was uppity as hell and he made me leave headquarters.

 

Wear it proudly, Sister... wear it proudly. 

[FaithManor]

Well, you are on your hands and knees with your attractive young backside available for prime viewing...

 

I think that's all there is to it.

Exactly this!!!! I say this from personal experience. I was forced to allow that man to hug me when I was 15 years old. Never in all my life has my creep o meter clanged as loud as it did in that moment! I showered three times when I got back to the hotel, and didn't sleep a wink that night.

 

Gothard is a scum. I speak out against him because I was traumatized at the hands of the faculty of an ATI school and had to endure that man's slimey touch because of what ATI preaches. He is evil, and so are his henchmen.

[mommaduck]

I'm sorry, my copy of the book caught on fire. I can't look up any references.

 

I don't remember which chapter, nor what Debi Pearl's goal was.

 

Mine suffered a tragic end also. Not quite as dramatic though. Oh, we went through it with an online quiverful group...that had Michelle Duggar as a guest speaker.

[gardenmom5]

Debi Pearl, in her bizarre marriage mainfesto, "Created to Be His Helpmeet," included a section in which she sat in the Walmart parking lot judging women by how they looked at their husbands, and by what they wore (of course). It's a favorite sport of these types of people, I guess.

Too much time on their hands. When I look at people in a parking lot it's to determine if they're coming or going and if their spot is opening.

[Guest]

As much as they value husbands over the family, why do they say Gothard never married? Surely he could have convinced someone to offer up a daughter?

[Katy]

I might have a copy of it somewhere...  I like keeping controversial books, have the kids read them, and then tell me what they think so I can make sure they have the knowledge & courage to recognize hogwash for what it is.  I'll go look.