Cammie Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Hive, I cannot be the only one on here who does not buy into the "wait until marriage" way of teaching about intimacy. I would love to hear what people are teaching that is not based on the premise that intimacy should be reserved for only the person you finally marry. In our house we have fairly open discussions these days about the multiple types of identities (dd's school has a number of kids who identify as gay or bisexual.) We have never once talked about "purity" or waiting until marriage. We have talked about making sure people treat you with respect. And that certain choices are best made when you have reached a level of maturity to handle all the emotions that may come with it. We will discuss bc options. Anyone else out there share a similar mindset?? 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We do. Dh had the whole abstinence and purity culture thing growing up. Did you see the article about the Netherlands? http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/spring-fever/ I'd love to find a UU class the kids could take, but we don't have one closer than 45mins away. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 And the funny thing is...we are fairly strict. For example, I don't like co-ed sleepovers. We have French neighbors who routinely have 14-15 year old kids having co-ed sleepovers. To me, that is not appropriate. I don't think a 14 year old is ready yet to be faced with the kind of situations that can occur in those settings. Now if my child was 18 and was hanging out and sleeping over at a friends house in a co-ed situation, I would feel differently. I guess my point is just becuase we are not "abstinence only" people doesn't have to mean we are "anything goes" people either. I think we all want our kids to be happy,healthy, well adjusted. We just take different approaches to getting them there. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The UU partner with UCC for Our Whole Lives. For us, the Unitarians are a major drive away, but the United Church of Christ is really close. Exact same program. Possibly even the same instructor for both churches since the training is extensive, and churches share instructors often. We do the liberal sex discussion, no shame, no judgement thing. My big line is that the physical act of sex is designed to create babies. That doesn't mean that is everything to it, but let's be real, human sex makes smaller humans. Until Ds is ready to take on parenting respinsibilities, he needs to be very careful with how he practices his sexuality. At this point, the various ways he can do that are not something he wants to discuss, but in a year or two I think that might change. Another major one is for him is to recognize privilege and power dynamics. We do a lot of discussion about objectification of both men and women, about gender roles and relationship scripts, about not getting caught enacting someone else's story. As the mother of a boy, I have to say there is a whole lot more talk about men wielding privledge than women. Teenage girls are masters of sexual power (not all, but some). I say that in recognizing how horribly mean I was to a few very nice boys. He also knows there is a responsibilty that comes from his social power as well. My husband is a Southern, military, white male. This is all very hard for him. He is trying, but often times his words, his actions, and his expectations do not line up. That in and of itself has been an important part of our discussions (not in a critical way, but more in a be honest with yourself because that is the only way for you to self advocate. In a more open "we are all human and imperfect" and society is hard sometimes way). I remember the first time I said to our two and a half year old having a bit of fit over something, "when you grow up someday and possibly choose to marry a boy or a girl, it is important that you can use loving words. So we use loving words in our family. Even when we are frustrated. Even when sometimes we get so frustrated we say mean things it is important to apologize with loving words." Dh had no idea even what to do. He didn't hear much after the words "marry a boy or a girl." It was perfectly fine for our son to be gay, but not to talk like that! Dh has come a long way since then! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomtoCandJ Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 For the love of all things holy... Please discuss birth control options!!!! I just had my 15 yr old goddaughter call me to ask about it because she thinks her mom is too old (ok that may be the cause, she's 60) and she won't talk to her older sisters about it either (don't blame her, actually one sister is biologically her mom) but jeez. I'm glad she's thinking about this and it's better than a call saying she's pregnant. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 If you can't, don't have a UUA near you, how about: http://www.uua.org/re/owl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We insist that bedroom doors stay open when friends are over until age 16. We also give condoms as 16th birthday presents. If that sounds like: 'You're sixteen now, go after it' that's not how it feels. It's more that we are preparing them for going away to university by letting them learn to set their own boundaries, whilst providing back-up and education. Calvin went to university at age 17. We talk a lot about respect (in general and in relationships) and also about responsibility (for other adults and for children). Fingers crossed. L 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We've had lots of conversations and keep having them. We talk about s*x as an act of intimacy and with that comes responsibility, not just protection against pregnancy but about the emotions involved on all sides. We continue to talk about how to stop at all points, that no means no (even for him), and there are other ways to get a physical release (yes the M word). I don't treat s*x as a taboo subject or something that is dirty if done outside of marriage. I also weave in conversations about relationship in general, such as not compromising who you are, how s*x and intimacy can be too drastically different things, and that a relationship based solely on s*x should not derail your life goals. Real intimacy in a relationship moves beyond the bedroom and has an acceptance and openness about all aspects of a person. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I did the whole birth control thing with them while doing biology science. I went to the local hospital and borrowed their kit that the nurse uses to explain birth control to people. I embarrassed the life out of my boys :rofl: I have told them that waiting until married is absolutely best, but here is where the birth control things are found in this isle in the supermarket. I have also have some examples of very close relatives ( my brothers) and what messes they have made of their lives by not waiting. one tricked by older woman ( he was 18, she was 40 and her husband had had a vasectomy and she wanted another child). and my other brother who had condom failure in a very casual relationship and now has a daughter . I have also told them how super fertile my whole family is and how NO birth control seems to work very effectively. I have told them that if they are not prepared for the remote chance of becoming a parent then they had better wait until they are . 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 My son went through OWL last year at a UU church. I really do like the approach. It is not a free for all attitude at all but covers situations pretty comprehensively. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'm not sure I'm particularly liberal, but we are sex positive, and I'd be fine with premarital sex, even non-committed sex, as long as it was done from a positive place of exploration or liberation, not from a negative place of trying to bargain, manipulate, or self-destruct with it. I'd also be absolutely fine if my more religious child waited until marriage for first kiss though. When I was young I wanted to wait, but when I mentioned it to my parents they both acted as if that was crazy. As an adult I know couples who did wait until marriage to kiss. Whatever choice they make, as long as it's done thoughtfully, responsibly, and isn't self-destructive we'll support. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We talk a lot, starting when they're quite young. I try to emphasize, early and often, the concepts of self-agency and respect for others. Both concepts are framed within our religious frameworks and we also use both concepts as lenses in talking about literature, movies, current events, media images, etc etc etc. Agency means, among other things, that the young individual ultimately owns the decision -- not me or my husband, not our faith community, not adult community norms; but equally, not a potential partner, or peer community norms pressuring them to start before they feel ready. Agency also means taking ownership for the potential consequences of the decision, so we talk early and often and hypothetically about birth control and safe sex. I've pointed out the relevant sections of the pharmacies, given them all pretty specific books about the facts, and I leave each of them alone with the physician telling them to discuss whatever they need even if they're not comfortable discussing it with me. (I believe they are comfortable discussing it with me, BTW. But I cannot know for sure, and I'd far rather they have access to what they need, than let my maternal ego stand between it!) What I mean by respect, in this context, is a little harder to define succinctly... Many young relationships that I observe -- high school, college, early marriage, including my own at those stages -- seem to me to be plagued by issues of power and objectification. I don't know that either liberal or conservative frameworks really do much to address these... they seem really to stem from the age itself, which developmentally is still very often pretty self-oriented... so it's very easy to see the other person in a relationship as an instrument (for sex, for getting away from the FOO, for "independence," for status, etc.) It takes maturity and empathy to refrain from wielding power disrespectfully; and a stable sense of self to resist its disrespectful (ab)use. For most people, that comes with age and experience. So I hope my kids wait until they're... grown ups. They know that. But the thing is, they're the ones who have the agency actually to decide. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We are strict-ish too. In that there are some very clear boundaries drawn around things like early dating. It's not from a moral pov, more from a 'you have your whole lives ahead for intimate relationships - get to know yourself first, work out how you function as a friend, as a student, find the things that bring you joy - fill yourself up so that later, you have something to bring to a relationship.' Flexibility re those boundaries increases with age. We talk about what healthy relationships look like. How to protect yourself, physically and emotionally, until you are sure about the other person. One of mine is gay, so I had to go out and find some safe sex for lesbians info for her. I agree - although I don't buy the purity and abstinence stuff, it doesn't mean I'm all like - girls, here be the condoms (or dental dams ?), invite the boys (or girls) over to par-tay! Safe, healthy, happy. That's the goal. This is my POV as well. But I also add that dating is a process meant to find a life-partner, and it should not occur until you are ready to choose someone to spend your life with. I include the idea that sex is an exclusive relationship which involves hormones that attach people to each other, and to play with attaching and detaching (or be played with) can be emotionally painful and unkind. I told my kids that I think they should wait to have such a relationship until they are in a position to support any children that might come about as result, and until that time they should plan to cultivate a lot of friendships and less formal relationships. And also that some people are less honest than others about their motives, and may try to trick you into parenting a child with them. When one of my kids decided to try out a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship at 16 or 17 I gave them a box of condoms and a pregnancy pee stick and told them to make the right choice. They chose to abstain for a few more years. But we have had lessons about birth control and STDs. I don't mind co-ed sleepovers so long as there are separate sleeping quarters and good parental supervision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroe1 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Working in an ER, I see the worst of the worst. And whatever parenting philosophy chosen, does not seem very protective. Bottom line, teens left with opportunities may find themselves with unwanted pregnancies, STDs, broken hearts leading to suicide attempts, and accidents. To my knowledge, a more liberal or conservative approach to teaching kids and teens does not matter one way or the other in regard to improved outcomes. What matters is opportunity and blind luck. Teens with more unsupervised time with other teens are more likely to have poor outcomes. But, also luck comes into play. For example, around 25% of young people will be infected with chlaymydia, most of whom do not know they have it. The blind luck comes into play if one doesn't hook up with the 25%. Finally, there is a wide gap in grief response to those relationship breakups involving sex and those without. Teens have an even larger gap. Since teens are also more spontaneous, this makes the suicide risk and severe depression risk a little higher in this group of teens. Obviously, in my job I will never see the teen who comes in and says I have had a healthy casual sexual relationship with 50 others and never had a bad outcome. So my career taints me. Nonetheless, the only proven protection is lack of opportunity. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Obviously, in my job I will never see the teen who comes in and says I have had a healthy casual sexual relationship with 50 others and never had a bad outcome. So my career taints me. Nonetheless, the only proven protection is lack of opportunity. I think that's the point. You never see those teens because they don't come into the ER. Anecdotal stories is not the same as data. In fact, the best data we have says something very different about what improves outcomes. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I don't so much teach wait until marriage as I teach that you should wait until you are ready to handle the consequences. Even using protection you can still get or get someone pregnant. I teach that someone who says "if you loved me, you would have sex with me" is not someone who loves you. If they loved you they would be willing to wait until you are ready to take that step. I have also taught that if you are too embarrassed to buy condoms then you are not ready to have sex. And that latex condoms are the only way to protect against std's. Don't trust someone who says "not to worry about a condom because they are on the pill". 1. The pill will not protect you from herpes, aids, chlamydia, etc. and 2. She could be telling a lie and wants to get pregnant. Cynical, I know, but people do that. We have taught that sex is part of a healthy and loving relationship but there are consequences to being that intimate with someone and you need to go into it with your eyes open and be responsible for your own protection. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistyMountain Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I plan on teaching to wait until they can completely trust the person and they had plenty of time to know them because the hormones and emotions can cause them to not make good decisions about relationships after they have had sex. It takes a while for red flags to be evident in a relationship and if you have sex early in a relationship judgement can be clouded. I hope they are comfortable with who they are and able to completely trust the person and to be able to handle the potential child even if they are taking precautions. I plan on being strict about things like coed sleepovers, parties and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsWeasley Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 My kids are much younger, so we haven't had a lot of conversations about relationships and intimacy, yet. My eldest knows that I had her a couple years before I married her father. She also has friends in similar circumstances, and we have many friends who never married their child's father. Once, when my eldest was a preschooler, she had a friend who told her she couldn't have been at our wedding, because you have to be married before you have kids, and we very firmly made it clear that there are many different ways to make a family, and many parents have kids before or outside of marriage, isn't diversity grand sort of way. We talked a lot before same sex marriage became legal in our state about how unfair it was that some people who loved each other could marry and some couldn't. By now, she knows how babies are made, and if she hasn't figured out that we didn't "wait" until marriage, she will. I sometimes fret about whether this whole "purity until marriage" thing will negatively affect her and try to shield her from it. I hope she knows that she was wanted, that she was as much of a blessing to us as the children we had after we married, as any child. So, I'm definitely on the more liberal side of the spectrum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibiche Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We are much more in line with the Dutch model of sex ed than the American. I grew up with the whole "wait until marriage" philosophy (although it was never explicitly discussed, just sort of transmitted) and frankly, I think it was damaging. For a while I thought that the ideal was sex in a committed relationship, but my mindset is now anything goes as long as it is mutually acceptable. If it is in a committed relationship, great, if it isn't, great - just as long as things are clear and the involved parties are mature enough to handle it. And gah! the though of waiting until marriage?! What if you are sexually incompatible? I can't even imagine the horror of that. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Totally should have read this thread before posting in the other one where I am most likely getting slaughtered for my opinions right now..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkyandtheBrains. Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I sent my teen to the UU class, and I also discussed varying points of view and how he can navigate them. It's up to him to decide what he chooses. The UU class contains more facts that he may ever need to know as well as emotional and social issues related to the topic. It was easy enough to follow up with any specific personal points of view. I hope I will be able to find the same class for my younger son in a couple of years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Having a cousin pregnant at 16, a peer pregnant at 15 and, even more impactful - two siblings born when she was 11 and 13 made a strong impression on my oldest. She KNEW without question that she did not want to have children young. She has plans that include grad school and knows how hard kids can make fulfilling those plans (she knows I didn't get my bachelors until I was 35). That said, I've never emphasized waiting for marriage (cause I'm more in the "wait until you've grown up and know yourself" school of marriage). I've gone more with being as careful as possible (pill AND condoms every single time), knowing and trusting your partners (most of her boyfriends serious or not have been friends first and after), making sure your being treated fairly, and treating all your partners fairly. She's had fairly comprehensive (and I guess most would consider extremely liberal) sex ed in public school here in NJ, and we've always talked very openly. I'm seriously considering the UU OWL program for my younger kids but so far we have the books - It's Perfectly Normal, The Boys Body Book (or something like that) and The Care and Keeping of You. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I'm fairly strict with my kids (I don't even do same-sex sleepovers, let alone co-ed ones and I ask her to maintain high behavioral standards), but I do not buy the "save it for marriage" line and I don't preach that to my kids. DS is too young for this convo, but I've had several discussions in this vein with DD. I tell her that it is emotionally safer to wait until you are older, know yourself well, find someone who is worthy of you, and have some platonic interpersonal experience under your belt in order to evaluate people; waiting until marriage was not something I ever preached. It's unrealistic, punishing, and if you never marry it means you forego that life experience. The in-depth birth control discussion will be happening soon, although we've discussed the idea of birth control in general. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 And the funny thing is...we are fairly strict. For example, I don't like co-ed sleepovers. We have French neighbors who routinely have 14-15 year old kids having co-ed sleepovers. To me, that is not appropriate. I don't think a 14 year old is ready yet to be faced with the kind of situations that can occur in those settings. Now if my child was 18 and was hanging out and sleeping over at a friends house in a co-ed situation, I would feel differently. I guess my point is just becuase we are not "abstinence only" people doesn't have to mean we are "anything goes" people either. I think we all want our kids to be happy,healthy, well adjusted. We just take different approaches to getting them there. I was having co-ed sleepovers when I was 14-15 and I delayed sex until I was with my now husband. Co-ed sleepover doesn't mean there's anything sexual going on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I don't so much teach wait until marriage as I teach that you should wait until you are ready to handle the consequences. Even using protection you can still get or get someone pregnant. I teach that someone who says "if you loved me, you would have sex with me" is not someone who loves you. If they loved you they would be willing to wait until you are ready to take that step. I have also taught that if you are too embarrassed to buy condoms then you are not ready to have sex. And that latex condoms are the only way to protect against std's. Don't trust someone who says "not to worry about a condom because they are on the pill". 1. The pill will not protect you from herpes, aids, chlamydia, etc. and 2. She could be telling a lie and wants to get pregnant. Cynical, I know, but people do that. We have taught that sex is part of a healthy and loving relationship but there are consequences to being that intimate with someone and you need to go into it with your eyes open and be responsible for your own protection. This has been almost exactly what we have taught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsWeasley Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I was having co-ed sleepovers when I was 14-15 and I delayed sex until I was with my now husband. Co-ed sleepover doesn't mean there's anything sexual going on. And same sex sleepovers don't mean there isn't anything sexual going on.... But I'm way too much of a helicopter parent for any of my kids to go on a sleepover with anyone other than grandma yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 We keep it rather practical here. To be brief ... He has a thorough knowledge of the biology, and we emphasize that emotional readiness is as important as physical maturation. We certainly don't encourage him to seek out sexual partners. In fact, quite the opposite -- we encourage casual friendship as the first preferred relationship. We have talked about respect a great deal -- that if she says no, that must be respected immediately and always. Also, he has a right to say no and to have his 'no' respected immediately and always. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 And same sex sleepovers don't mean there isn't anything sexual going on.... But I'm way too much of a helicopter parent for any of my kids to go on a sleepover with anyone other than grandma yet. Yes, but your oldest child is 8. A lot of kids aren't ready for sleepovers with non-family members at 8 or 9. My older son started having sleepovers at almost 10, except for his cousins or very close friends in need (like having his best friend sleep over for 2 days while her mom, our close friend, was in labor). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 To my knowledge, a more liberal or conservative approach to teaching kids and teens does not matter one way or the other in regard to improved outcomes. What matters is opportunity and blind luck. Teens with more unsupervised time with other teens are more likely to have poor outcomes. But, also luck comes into play. For example, around 25% of young people will be infected with chlaymydia, most of whom do not know they have it. The blind luck comes into play if one doesn't hook up with the 25%. Well, in the northern European countries like Denmark, where teens routinely have parent supported s*x in their own homes and where s*x ed is extremely s*x positive, there tends to be much lower rates of STD's and teen pregnancy - certainly much lower than in the US, across socioeconomic levels as well. And studies have shown that abstinence only education does not prevent pregnancy or STD's while comprehensive education produces much better results. So I think it has been shown that the parental attitude and what we teach kids does strongly effect outcomes. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 My kids are only 10 yo. I have tried very hard to present a very s*x positive view and both dh and I are pretty frank about these issues. Right now all that has meant has been that we have been listening ears about a couple of first crushes and have made it clear that masturbation is fine and good and fun but please, don't touch yourself in front of your mother. Also, being the provider of books and answerer of questions. I have had some friend parents of teens who have managed to maintain their calm and supportive attitude through knowing their kids were having s*x. I hope I can make it there too. My mother somehow survived it all with me and I am hoping I manage to do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 This is a book we have found helpful for my older son. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0763668729/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_4?refRID=1D14X15DMEF9XP9KN51D There's also books by the same guy for younger kids, It's so Amazing and It's not the Stork which my younger son has enjoyed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfknitter.# Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 This is a book we have found helpful for my older son. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0763668729/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_4?refRID=1D14X15DMEF9XP9KN51D There's also books by the same guy for younger kids, It's so Amazing and It's not the Stork which my younger son has enjoyed. I love her books. It's Perfectly Normal came out just as I began my career. I just recommended It's So Amazing to my friend today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I love her books. It's Perfectly Normal came out just as I began my career. I just recommended It's So Amazing to my friend today. Yanno, I now feel silly for not realizing that Robie Harris is a woman. We've loved these books and I never noticed an author picture. But Robie as a name does make a lot more sense for a woman than a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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