Question re: European cultures & nudity

[TXBeth]

I recently heard about an issue that occurred here in Thailand that has me wondering, so I would appreciate answers from anyone in the know about any European cultures.

 

A expat here (I'll call him NG) left the shower and walked around the house with no covering (supposedly he was looking for a towel) while the family's Thai maid was working. She was very obviously embarrassed, and I believe left the house, but came back the next time she was scheduled to work. A couple weeks later, the same thing happened again. The maid immediately quit and has expressed to a friend that she will never work for foreigners or Christians (NG is a missionary) again.

 

The friend is a maid for another missionary family, who confronted NG about inappropriate behavior. NG's claim is that in his home country, this is perfectly normal and acceptable, and he had no idea it would be a problem for a Thai woman. He is independent and did not come through any mission organization that would have provided cultural training.

 

So my question is...how credible is his claim? I don't know what country he is from, but I am skeptical. Do any of you come from or know of a European country where it would be acceptable for a man to wander around in the nude in the presence of a non-family female employee?

[TXBeth]

I think that phrase was his way of saying it wouldn't be a problem for a woman in his culture, and he didn't know Thailand would be different. Of course I personally think it was just a cop-out. Other than prostitutes, Thai women are typically way more modest/conservative than western women, especially the hill tribe ladies who usually work as maids in this area. I have a hard time believing he didn't know that, even without any specific cross-cultural training. I was just wondering if there could be any truth to his claim that he was acting appropriately for his own culture.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I asked my husband he said, 'It depends."  He said if he knew the maid for 20 years and really it was just all very matter of fact he was walking from the bathroom to his room he wouldn't see the big deal.  So I explained the example and he said no that wouldn't be right and especially not the second time after noticing she was upset about it.  Unless, he joked, he didn't like her and was trying to get rid of her.  LOL

 

 

[TeacherZee]

I'm in Sweden and no it wouldn't be appropriate here, not with a maid.

 

Now, walking around your own home, when there is only immediate family there, or the showers at the pool completely nude that is a different story.

[SparklyUnicorn]

What country is he from? Not all European countries have the same approach. 

 

In my experience, Europeans are not as hung up about nudity as people in the US. The situation you describe might be appropriate if the only people around were family members or good friends, for instance. I cannot imagine anyone thinking that near strangers would be OK with this though. Really. 

 

Very true.  It's a fairly big and diverse place. 

 

To me the only thing that truly makes it obnoxious is if he noticed she was upset and that she left and he did it again.  But that part of the story as presented here is rather fuzzy.  Did he notice and did she leave and did he know she left? 

 

I would not care if it happened so long as he did not approach me naked.  Like if he were just walking by, whatever.  It's his house. 

[SarahW]

Acceptable? No, not really. But I could see some EU guys doing it. 

 

In the EU thinking, if someone is nude (changing on the beach, etc.) it is considered rude for the other people present to LOOK.

 

NG could have just assumed that his maid would politely avert her eyes and move to a different part of the house.

 

Or, he could be purposefully engaging in sexual harassment. 

 

 

[Starr]

The same thing happened twice? Sounds like it was a plan. Sorry. I've lived with German families. No full nudity walking around the house. Maybe in unders around family.  Missionary without cultural training? How can that work? Good for the maid to be able to quit.

[8circles]

I think its really hard to say. I do know some young males from various European countries who might not have a clue and think this was OK. But generally speaking, no - this isn't a thing that large countries of people would find acceptable.

[TammyinTN]

Complete nudity...nope, but undies where fine for hanging out laundry and lounging around the house.   

[TXBeth]

Thanks, ladies! I knew I could find answers here. Sounds like it is unlikely, but not outside the realm of possibility, that this was simply an ignorant mistake. It doesn't matter, really, since I have no influence on the situation, but I was curious. It's also helpful to know we need to be sure to cover this in our orientation for newbies. "No getting naked around the house help."

[Pam in CT]

Er, OT but genuine question...

 

 

I recently heard about an issue that occurred here in Thailand that has me wondering, so I would appreciate answers from anyone in the know about any European cultures.

A expat here (I'll call him NG) left the shower and walked around the house with no covering (supposedly he was looking for a towel) while the family's Thai maid was working. She was very obviously embarrassed, and I believe left the house, but came back the next time she was scheduled to work. A couple weeks later, the same thing happened again. The maid immediately quit and has expressed to a friend that she will never work for foreigners or Christians (NG is a missionary) again.

The friend is a maid for another missionary family, who confronted NG about inappropriate behavior. NG's claim is that in his home country, this is perfectly normal and acceptable, and he had no idea it would be a problem for a Thai woman. He is independent and did not come through any mission organization that would have provided cultural training.

So my question is...how credible is his claim? I don't know what country he is from, but I am skeptical. Do any of you come from or know of a European country where it would be acceptable for a man to wander around in the nude in the presence of a non-family female employee?

 

What does it mean to be a "missionary" without any kind of sponsoring organization?  The mission is to do what?

 

 

 

 

At best, such behavior is insensitive to inherent employer/employee power imbalances and the great likelihood of cultural differences.  At best, this fellow is a poor candidate for the promotion of mutual cross-cultural understanding.  IMNSHO.

[Guest]

Er, OT but genuine question...

 

 

 

What does it mean to be a "missionary" without any kind of sponsoring organization? The mission is to do what?

 

 

 

 

At best, such behavior is insensitive to inherent employer/employee power imbalances and the great likelihood of cultural differences. At best, this fellow is a poor candidate for the promotion of mutual cross-cultural understanding. IMNSHO.

I wondered the same thing? What is the difference between an independent missionary and a traveling deviant?

[Pam in CT]

Thanks, ladies! I knew I could find answers here. Sounds like it is unlikely, but not outside the realm of possibility, that this was simply an ignorant mistake. It doesn't matter, really, since I have no influence on the situation, but I was curious. It's also helpful to know we need to be sure to cover this in our orientation for newbies. "No getting naked around the house help."

 

Well, we were posting at the same time.   :lol: to the bolded.  Yes, that's doubtless a wise inclusion in the training manual...

[TXBeth]

Er, OT but genuine question...

 

 

 

What does it mean to be a "missionary" without any kind of sponsoring organization?  The mission is to do what?

 

 

 

 

At best, such behavior is insensitive to inherent employer/employee power imbalances and the great likelihood of cultural differences.  At best, this fellow is a poor candidate for the promotion of mutual cross-cultural understanding.  IMNSHO.

 

Since I don't actually know this guy and only heard about the situation secondhand (really thirdhand, since my colleauges heard from their maid, who heard from NG's maid), I don't know what exactly he is doing here. My understanding is that he was sent out by his home church, rather than a larger organization - maybe planning to plant a church or just do evangelism or something like that? So he has very little accountability or authority over him, and no cross-cultural training or orientation to Southeast Asia.

 

It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me as well (and clearly it was in this particular situation).

 

The reason it came up is that I had just finished leading a refresher course in child safety for our organization, going over our policies and procedures related to abuse, neglect, and sexual misconduct. Then one participant asked me if there is a policy on what to do if we become aware of misconduct on the part of someone outside our group. After looking into it, we eventually came to the conclusion that unless something criminal has happened, all we can do is confront them individually or report to the leadership of their sponsoring agency, which in this case didn't actually exist. My colleague was wondering if this was serious enough that he should consider writing to Naked Guy's home church.

[J-rap]

Not to be too presumptuous, but to me, working in that capacity completely independently could be a red flag that he has some unusual ideas of what's right or okay.  I'm glad the maid quit, and I hope she found another job.  If he is a little nutty, I'd be concerned that he is using the label "Christian missionary" to get people to trust him.

[LostSurprise]

I think everyone's answered what I would say. I've known many Europeans living in the US and lived with a German in college for a year and while nudity preferences were different for different people, everyone was aware that they were living in a foreign country and were sensitive to the dominant culture. So if Stefan or Una preferred nudity they were aware that it was impolite to be nude in a space with others until they knew how the others felt about nudity. This includes their own homes when they are shared spaces.

 

What I haven't seen anyone mention is if this man has a different idea of class/employees/servants. Sometimes people who have been raised in a home with maids or other servants, they stop thinking of them as people with preferences that need to be observed. Being comfortable in your own home means being able to forget that other people are there. This is the only way I can imagine his ignorance realistically. 

 

Either way he's committed a faux pas, and as a missionary this mistake is even more shocking. If he's truly that culturally ignorant and lacking in sensitivity to other cultures and POVs, he really shouldn't have a mission in another country. He's not a good ambassador if he can't imagine outside his own culture. 

[albeto.]

 My colleague was wondering if this was serious enough that he should consider writing to Naked Guy's home church.

 

Yes. I'd bet dollars to donuts naked guy knew exactly what he was doing, and was hoping for the "happy ending" service, as his perverted imagination inspired him (ie, Thai = kinky). Don't let being a Christian missionary fool you into thinking his intention was innocent. At the very least, his home church needs to know they're funding people who are ill equipped to provide whatever job or service they think they're supporting. 

[Anne in CA]

I didn't understand that this guy is a missionary. I absolutely would let his sponsoring organization know about this. It is inappropriate behavior all the way around.

[Liz CA]

As others have indicated - even if this is okay in his home country, he should have known and probably knew that it was rude there - especially since the maid left the house after the first time it happened. If he is absolutely certain there is nobody in the house he can do what he wants. If she walked in unexpected, it would be a different scenario....but no, I bet it is what it looks like. :glare:

[Reefgazer]

I have a friend whose family lives in the south of France for half the year, and the entire family is perfectly comfortable walking around topless in the summer and at the beach. But i've never even known that bunch to be completely nude in front of others .

[regentrude]

I am from Germany. Nudity is more acepted, there are even city run public nude swimming pools.

 

I do not know anybody who has a maid, but I'd think that most people in Germany would find it inapporpriate to be nude in front of employees working in their homes.

[Laura Corin]

Considering how shocking nudity is considered in Thailand, it really doesn't matter what the guy would do in his home country.  He should know better when living in another culture.

[mommaduck]

Even with European relatives, I know that Nudity is acceptable within certain contexts (spa, beach, etc) and amount of nudity varies depending. At home, in front of family is one thing...at home in front of a maid and completely nude "walking around looking for a towel", no, absolutely not. You would think he would know to bring a towel with him the second time. Heck, take your clothes in there with you. No excuse. I'd call him a creep. I hope she found a better and safer position.

[Nan in Mass]

Er, OT but genuine question...

 

 

 

What does it mean to be a "missionary" without any kind of sponsoring organization?  The mission is to do what?

 

 

 

 

At best, such behavior is insensitive to inherent employer/employee power imbalances and the great likelihood of cultural differences.  At best, this fellow is a poor candidate for the promotion of mutual cross-cultural understanding.  IMNSHO.

 

I just spoke to someone who did this.  (We happened to be walking in the same direction and struck up a conversation.)  The couple's "mission" was to start a school in a village.  The first time they did this, they did it as teenagers with an organization.  When they graduated from college, they decided to spend a few years doing it again.  Rather than doing it through an organization, they asked around until they found someone who knew a village in South America that wanted a school.  They went to live in the village and made a school and taught in it until it was established.  No mention of religion was made other than using the word mission early on in the conversation, but other clues led me to suspect they are conservative Christian.  I have no idea if they did any proselytizing, or if the school was a non-religious one, a gift to the village with no strings attached, and they just wanted to contribute to the world.

 

Nan

[alisoncooks]

I think I would find a way to have a nice, anonymous letter sent to this guy's sponsoring church.  My church sponsors missionaries (though most, for their own education and protection, go through a formal organization), and I know the church leaders would be horrified to hear about a situation like this!

[Tammyla]

I recently heard about an issue that occurred here in Thailand that has me wondering, so I would appreciate answers from anyone in the know about any European cultures.

 

A expat here (I'll call him NG) left the shower and walked around the house with no covering (supposedly he was looking for a towel) while the family's Thai maid was working. She was very obviously embarrassed, and I believe left the house, but came back the next time she was scheduled to work. A couple weeks later, the same thing happened again. The maid immediately quit and has expressed to a friend that she will never work for foreigners or Christians (NG is a missionary) again.

 

The friend is a maid for another missionary family, who confronted NG about inappropriate behavior. NG's claim is that in his home country, this is perfectly normal and acceptable, and he had no idea it would be a problem for a Thai woman. He is independent and did not come through any mission organization that would have provided cultural training.

 

So my question is...how credible is his claim? I don't know what country he is from, but I am skeptical. Do any of you come from or know of a European country where it would be acceptable for a man to wander around in the nude in the presence of a non-family female employee?

 

 

I don't believe he was looking around the house for a towel for a minute.  He sounds like a predator who was testing the maid.  He 100% needs to be counseled about what is acceptable behavior, and monitored.  Did he even offer an apology to the maid after he was confronted?  I would think his reaction and then his concern or lack thereof for the woman reveal his character.

[Pam in CT]

I just spoke to someone who did this.  (We happened to be walking in the same direction and struck up a conversation.)  The couple's "mission" was to start a school in a village.  The first time they did this, they did it as teenagers with an organization.  When they graduated from college, they decided to spend a few years doing it again.  Rather than doing it through an organization, they asked around until they found someone who knew a village in South America that wanted a school.  They went to live in the village and made a school and taught in it until it was established.  No mention of religion was made other than using the word mission early on in the conversation, but other clues led me to suspect they are conservative Christian.  I have no idea if they did any proselytizing, or if the school was a non-religious one, a gift to the village with no strings attached, and they just wanted to contribute to the world.

 

Nan

interesting.  Do you know if they did it wholly on their own expense, or raised funds somehow to underwrite it?

 

Just language I suppose, but I've always associated the word "missionary" with some sort of sponsoring organization and also with some sort of evangelical purpose.  

[albeto.]

I don't believe he was looking around the house for a towel for a minute.  He sounds like a predator who was testing the maid.  He 100% needs to be counseled about what is acceptable behavior, and monitored.  Did he even offer an apology to the maid after he was confronted?  I would think his reaction and then his concern or lack thereof for the woman reveal his character.

 

Counseled to what end, I wonder. To remind him inappropriate behavior is inappropriate? I'll bet all the change in my pocket he knows that damn well.

 

He sounds like a predator to me, one who knows exactly what he's doing, one who's counting on the idea that people will assume a Christian is a moral person, and a person who risks all to spread the gospel to others must be even more spiritual. I think he's counting on not being held accountable based on assumptions about faith, behavior, morality, and sex. 

 

But really, who is going to monitor him? In what way? How accurately? How hard is it for sexual predators to find work in environments where monitoring is sketchy at best, and their behaviors are excused because they are assumed to have superior moral knowledge and behavior? They count on the assumption of an innocent misunderstanding, or the victim being culpable. This guy's not an idiot, he's counting on people to not report him because they're easily convinced that he couldn't do "that."

[Tammyla]

albeto, I agree with you...  There is no easy answer, but if he is sponsored by anyone or hiring someone...they deserve to know he thinks his behavior was fine.  Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to alert those in his circle.  Predators always rely on the uncomfortable, concerned, and normal people wondering, but doing nothing.

[KungFuPanda]

Methinks the guy is up to no good.

[bettyandbob]

Before people become missionaries or go to new countries as missionaries don't they get some orientation of appropriate behavior in the country. 

 

It seems to me that the claim "it's normal in my country" just is wrong. It would seem to me that if you wanted to fulfill the goals of a missionary, you'd really have to have a basic understanding of the culture in which you are trying to work. Cultural norms on nudity and modesty are very basic to that. As a result I could only come to the conclusion the man is really dumb and in the wrong career or he is claiming ignorance while testing boundaries with the help and possibly has a truly icky agenda. 

[Bluegoat]

Well, this does remind me of a story my doctor told me about living with a French family when she was on exchange in high schhool.

 

She heard weird noises in the night, and went to investigate.  It turned out the dog was having puppies in the living room.  the whole family had also got up, and were watching the dog, all naked.  They seemed totally non-plussed that she, in her nightclothes, had joined them.

 

So - I don't know.  People can be very odd.

[8circles]

Yes. I'd bet dollars to donuts naked guy knew exactly what he was doing, and was hoping for the "happy ending" service, as his perverted imagination inspired him (ie, Thai = kinky). Don't let being a Christian missionary fool you into thinking his intention was innocent. At the very least, his home church needs to know they're funding people who are ill equipped to provide whatever job or service they think they're supporting. 

 

You could be right and I wouldn't be surprised.  But it could also be cluelessness & immaturity.  Either way, he isn't in any position to be of service and giving a heads-up to whomever is funding him is a good idea.

[Nan in Mass]

interesting. Do you know if they did it wholly on their own expense, or raised funds somehow to underwrite it?

 

Just language I suppose, but I've always associated the word "missionary" with some sort of sponsoring organization and also with some sort of evangelical purpose.

I don,t. I vaguely think perhaps raising money might have been mentioned. I was very curious about the whole thing but it seemed impolite to ask questions in this particular situation. I did ask if they had gone with an organization, which is how I know they didn,t, but that sort of used up my allotment of questions for that subject and we moved on to baby names.

 

I always associated the word missionary with evangelical purposes, too. (My son is still talking about his plane ride to Alaska with teenage seat mates who were "going to teach the Eskimos about Jesus".) However, I have run into a number of "mission trips" now in which the "missionaries" only tried to help people, not convert them. Some of these seemed to be a way of seeing another part of the world while trying to do a bit of good at the same time. I have met Catholics whose "mission" was to help the homeless or whatever, or who ran a "mission" which did the same. There is no proselytizing in that situation. So I don,t know. I guess the word can mean a general purpose to do good as well as an intent to spread ones religion.

 

Nan

[nd293]

However, I have run into a number of "mission trips" now in which the "missionaries" only tried to help people, not convert them. Some of these seemed to be a way of seeing another part of the world while trying to do a bit of good at the same time.

 

Entirely off the original topic, but I think it is a lot more than 'seeing the world'. As I understand it, helping others and serving as living examples of Christ's compassion is the truest sense of missionary work. When we lived in the Middle East there was a very well known couple who had devoted their lives to missionary work in a country, where proselytising remains very much frowned upon. They were no longer working, but still well known in the area (where they still lived much of the time), and I can't help thinking that their service had much wider ramifications in terms of personal and political attitudes towards Christians.

 

http://ncusar.org/publications/Publications/2012-02-13-bosch-obituary.pdf

[Pam in CT]

Entirely off the original topic, but I think it is a lot more than 'seeing the world'. As I understand it, helping others and serving as living examples of Christ's compassion is the truest sense of missionary work. When we lived in the Middle East there was a very well known couple who had devoted their lives to missionary work in a country, where proselytising remains very much frowned upon. They were no longer working, but still well known in the area (where they still lived much of the time), and I can't help thinking that their service had much wider ramifications in terms of personal and political attitudes towards Christians.

 

http://ncusar.org/publications/Publications/2012-02-13-bosch-obituary.pdf

 

Thanks for the eulogy for Dr. Bosch -- a life well lived, for sure.  My favorite bit was the seashells!

 

I think I know what you mean about sense of mission -- we actively support both American Jewish World Services (within our faith tradition) and Habitat for Humanity, both of whose activities are very much informed by faith-based values, but who serve populations without regard to faith traditions and do not engage in any evangelism.  Neither would define their activities, or the people involved, as "missionary," though.  As well, in the course of our travels we've met a number of individuals who like Dr. Bosch been moved to devote their lives to running hospitals / schools / afterschool and camp programs for at-risk youth, again without regard to faith tradition.  Kiva, another totally-cool organization, began this way and has grown to global proportions.  Definitely motivated by a sense of purpose / drive to serve / desire to be a light unto the nations (whether or not such intentions are fueled by a faith tradition).

 

It's the word itself, missionary, that for me is associated specifically with faith evangelism, not just service.

[Nan in Mass]

Entirely off the original topic, but I think it is a lot more than 'seeing the world'. As I understand it, helping others and serving as living examples of Christ's compassion is the truest sense of missionary work. When we lived in the Middle East there was a very well known couple who had devoted their lives to missionary work in a country, where proselytising remains very much frowned upon. They were no longer working, but still well known in the area (where they still lived much of the time), and I can't help thinking that their service had much wider ramifications in terms of personal and political attitudes towards Christians.

 

http://ncusar.org/publications/Publications/2012-02-13-bosch-obituary.pdf

 

nd293, you and Pam put it much better than I.  When I mentioned seeing the world and doing a bit of good, I was thinking of some of the gap year teen mission trips.  I don't mean to imply that either of these goals is wrong or unuseful or negates the other.  The word "bit" just was in comparison to someone who devotes their whole lives to service work.  I'm sure the devastated Houma family whose roof was repaired for free would not consider the word "bit" appropriate. : )  Katie Davis might...

 

In my heavily catholic area, the catholics do this sort of interfaith public service particularly well and my non-catholic church partners with them in local service work, which is why I mentioned them.  My own brand of Christianity has a huge service-only componant that is also, as Pam put it, heavily faith-inspired.  I almost wrote "for the good of their own soul" in reference to this type of "mission", but the word "soul" sometimes has uncomfortable connotations and put like that, it sounded a very selfish endeavor, which wasn't at all what I wanted.  I was thinking more along the lines of a focus-on-oneself-because-that-is-the-only-thing-one-can-really-control sort of thing.  It is hard to explain in the language my church uses.  (My church tends to be allergic to religious words, even the word "church".)  You did a much better job.

 

I think some of this is semantics.  I think some people use the word "mission" where Pam and I and the organizations we deal with use the word "service".  Some of this might be regional as well.  Pam and I are both New Englanders.  My feeling is that if we lived farther south, we might be more used to a variety of uses for the word mission.  Most people I know would protest if you labeled what they do missionary work because of its historical evangelical connotations.

 

Thank you for the link.  I always think of Mother Teresa when I think of this sort of compassion.  May we all aspire to be so selfless.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Pam - Kiva and service organizations which work in a similar manner is what gives me hope for the world and is why I am not anti-technology or unhappy about the changes in social structure that it is bringing. - Nan

[Pam in CT]

Pam - Kiva and service organizations which work in a similar manner is what gives me hope for the world and is why I am not anti-technology or unhappy about the changes in social structure that it is bringing. - Nan

 

Yeah, the way Kiva has harnessed technology and social media to link itty-bitty grass roots groups like 8-member women's lending circles in places like Malawi and Guatemala, to individuals like us sitting in our New England kitchens, is pretty awesome.  (I'd say "miraculous," but, y'know.... :laugh:  )

[Nan in Mass]

Yeah, the way Kiva has harnessed technology and social media to link itty-bitty grass roots groups like 8-member women's lending circles in places like Malawi and Guatemala, to individuals like us sitting in our New England kitchens, is pretty awesome.  (I'd say "miraculous," but, y'know.... :laugh:  )

 

...laughing...

 

Yup

[solascriptura]

That guy is weird to put it mildly.  I'm a Christian and well versed in missions work.  There is a thing called contextualization and he is living in a culture where that is not accepted with a local working in his home.  He should behave more appropriately and not turn people off from the gospel.