Why, WHY? Why did the co-pilot do that?

[kiwik]

It isn't terroism unless there was a political and/or religious motive. A deranged mass murder is not a terroist he is a deranged mass murder even though to the victims there is little difference. I am guessing the person in the cockpit has to be able to overide the keypad in case someone is holding a weapon on the person entering the code. With luck he posted a letter before boarding the plane with an explanation. He obviously wasn't part of a known group as they would have claimed responsibility by now and it is hard to supress things like that these days. Most suicides don't take others with them but some do.

[Carol in Cal.]

 to trivialize human behavior to such an amorphous construct is to neglect to accurately understand human behavior, and dismiss in some measure the need to develop pertinent tactics for the future.

 

My citing of sin in the world as the reason that this happens only serves to give weight to the enormity of it, not to trivialize it.  Those who are most realistic about sin and its effects are among the most likely to try to take preventative action against possibilities like this, because they see them clearly instead of dismissing them as unlikely.

 

 

 

 

For all we know, once upon a time this co-pilot felt vulnerable and alone and frightened, and found some irrational, illogical idea to be his only hope. Wouldn't it be something if we could identify people who feel like this, and the circumstances that lead them to feeling like this, and learn to help them and avoid tragedy rather than writing it off as some religious failing?

 

It is a very common fallacy to believe that illogic or fright is the cause of something like this.  However, evil clearly exists, that is obvious by observation; and people are not necessarily inherently good until ruined by fright or other problems--that is the underlying fallacy to what you are saying.  We all have to be taught morals and behavior--they are not inherent.  Surely on a homeschooling board where we regularly discuss how to convey these very values that we find important, there is no need to argue about that.  Yes, absolutely we should address fear and loneliness and vulnerability, but we also need to teach and model kindness and also to convey that some things are unthinkable.

[albeto.]

My citing of sin in the world as the reason that this happens only serves to give weight to the enormity of it, not to trivialize it.  Those who are most realistic about sin and its effects are among the most likely to try to take preventative action against possibilities like this, because they see them clearly instead of dismissing them as unlikely.

 

Surely people know the enormity of this event without reference to "sin," the same as we know the enormity of this event without reference to past lives, karma, thetans, or kami. This explanation doesn't address the impossible task of identifying what "sin" is in any meaningful, reliable way. Christians haven't been able to agree on what this condition means or what its effects are for some 2000 years. There exist no way to measure it, or to confirm speculations against any objective reference. But ultimately, what prevention is there if "sin" is the cause? Pray more? Convince more people to believe in [the right] God? If natural preventative measures exist (like identifying specific triggers that are more likely to inspire violent actions), then any concept regarding the state of "sin" is irrelevant anyway. 

 

It is a very common fallacy to believe that illogic or fright is the cause of something like this.  However, evil clearly exists, that is obvious by observation; and people are not necessarily inherently good until ruined by fright or other problems--that is the underlying fallacy to what you are saying.  We all have to be taught morals and behavior--they are not inherent.  Surely on a homeschooling board where we regularly discuss how to convey these very values that we find important, there is no need to argue about that.  Yes, absolutely we should address fear and loneliness and vulnerability, but we also need to teach and model kindness and also to convey that some things are unthinkable.

 

 

"Evil" is another subjective term that means different things to different people, and so is as unhelpful as the concept of "sin." Humans evolved complex social networks, making certain drives we call "justice" and "compassion" inherent behaviors. A really interesting TED talk about the evolution of moral behavior can be found HERE. 

 

I think there are very few things more important than discussing what inspires tragedies in the hopes of learning what we might do to maximize well-being and minimize suffering in general and for individuals. I think throwing out sentiments about "sin" not only do nothing to address suffering, but distract people from the issues, and attempt instead to solve unrelated problems apart from offering any practical insights.  I don't know why the two thoughts in your last sentence would be exclusionary. 

[Carol in Cal.]

You said, "I think there are very few things more important than discussing what inspires tragedies in the hopes of learning what we might do to maximize well-being and minimize suffering in general and for individuals."

 

 

There an underlying assumption here, that if people had well-being and did not suffer so much they wouldn't do things like this.  That assumption is incorrect, and it is dangerous.

[eternalsummer]

I hate to speak for albeto (as I doubt we agree about most things, but who knows) but perhaps she is referring not to the well-being/suffering of the causer of the tragedy, but the well-being/suffering of the victims.

 

That is to say, if we understood why this guy did this, and we could somehow change the conditions that led to it (which I doubt, but whatever), then there would be less suffering because the tragedies wouldn't happen in the first place.

[albeto.]

You said, "I think there are very few things more important than discussing what inspires tragedies in the hopes of learning what we might do to maximize well-being and minimize suffering in general and for individuals."

 

 

There an underlying assumption here, that if people had well-being and did not suffer so much they wouldn't do things like this.  That assumption is incorrect, and it is dangerous.

 

Can you explain this thought more? Are you suggesting people engage in violent behavior regardless of emotional well-being?

I'm assuming this act was purposeful, not accidental, fwiw. 

[eternalsummer]

I think society pretty clearly teaches that crashing an airliner full of people into a mountain is unthinkable.

 

The idea that morality is not inherent is both incorrect and illogical.

 

Chimapanzees have morality.  Very very small children have morality.  If it is not inherent then where did it ever come from?  Nothing comes from nothing.

[Mergath]

Oh, I'm just about positive this guy was a suicidal murderer and so is my husband...

 

Might want to rephrase that one. ;)  I was very startled before I realized what you meant.

[Guest]

Ah! I didn't hear it that way when I was typing it! :p

[DawnM]

We may never fully know.

 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think society pretty clearly teaches that crashing an airliner full of people into a mountain is unthinkable.

 

To a large extent modern Western society teaches that morality is personal and not foundational or specific.  There is almost no moral consensus--it's all about choices.  The logical conclusion of this is that nothing is completely unthinkable. 

 

The idea that morality is not inherent is both incorrect and illogical.

 

Chimapanzees have morality.  Very very small children have morality.  If it is not inherent then where did it ever come from?  Nothing comes from nothing.

 

No, chimpanzees and very very small children are taught morality.  

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Can you explain this thought more? Are you suggesting people engage in violent behavior regardless of emotional well-being?

I'm assuming this act was purposeful, not accidental, fwiw. 

SOME PEOPLE engage in violent behavior regardless of emotional well-being.

Not all people.

They do it to win, or to win out, or for gain.  It's gross but it's true.  Although psychology does explain why some get that way, it is by no means the entire answer in every case.

 

Look at video games, for instance.  I know almost no boys who don't play violent, gory video games, whether they are emotionally stable or not.  They find them entertaining.  Why is that?  

[Butter]

I am no expert on mental health, but it is hard for me to imagine a person thinking that they should take down 150 people with them as well as an expensive airplane just because they were depressed and suicidal.

 

To a rational person who is thinking clearly, it makes no sense at all.  That's why so many people in this thread have expressed doubt and/or shock that someone could take down an airplane full of people on purpose.  There is no explanation other than the co-pilot was not thinking clearly at all and for some reason, and we may never know the reason, he felt crashing the plane was the right course of action for him at the time.  I am glad I can't wrap my mind around what prompted him to do it.  Clearly he was hurting terribly for some reason to be brought to the point where he did what he did.

[albeto.]

SOME PEOPLE engage in violent behavior regardless of emotional well-being.

Not all people.

They do it to win, or to win out, or for gain.  It's gross but it's true.  

 

You're referring to psychopaths? How much do you know about psychopathy? I'm not very familiar with it myself, and do not know its pathology or what motivates behaviors. In general, human behavior is motivated by pleasure/pain principle - seeking out pleasure and avoiding pain. This isn't limited to physical, but includes emotional, and can be enormously complex. I can't think of any condition in which this doesn't apply (barring sever developmental delays or brain damage, etc). 

 

  Although psychology does explain why some get that way, it is by no means the entire answer in every case.

 

Neurology, I think, will be the method by which we understand human behavior. No field of study provides the entire answer in any case, and we don't expect them to when we utilize the knowledge we gain. 

 

Look at video games, for instance.  I know almost no boys who don't play violent, gory video games, whether they are emotionally stable or not.  They find them entertaining.  Why is that?  

 

Pleasure. 

[gardenmom5]

I think society pretty clearly teaches that crashing an airliner full of people into a mountain is unthinkable.

 

The idea that morality is not inherent is both incorrect and illogical.

 

Chimapanzees have morality.  Very very small children have morality.  If it is not inherent then where did it ever come from?  Nothing comes from nothing.

 

 

I didn't have time to really peruse the article, but one psychologist was likening this guys behavior to the mass shooters who cause much mayhem and death - then commit suicide.  they *want* to take lots of people with them.  made sense to me.  (well, as much as that can.)

 

apparently among the things they found in his apartment were drs notes excusing him from work for mental health reasons - he tore them all up.  one was dated the day of the crash. also rx for depression.

 

and the latest is the captain tried to use an ax to break into the cockpit.

[albeto.]

I hate to speak for albeto (as I doubt we agree about most things, but who knows) but perhaps she is referring not to the well-being/suffering of the causer of the tragedy, but the well-being/suffering of the victims.

 

That is to say, if we understood why this guy did this, and we could somehow change the conditions that led to it (which I doubt, but whatever), then there would be less suffering because the tragedies wouldn't happen in the first place.

 

I think we're in the infancy of neurology and understanding human behavior. Neurology as a field has been around less than two centuries, and there have been until recently, many assumptions tied into study (like "sin" or "free will"). There's no reason to believe our current knowledge will remain stagnant as we explore the cellular mechanics of the brain in greater detail in time. Diabetes, once a death sentence, can now be treated with insulin pumps. I don't doubt at all one day we will find a cure, and then one day we will find a way to prevent it. Why would this path be any different for the brain? 

[albeto.]

To a large extent modern Western society teaches that morality is personal and not foundational or specific.  There is almost no moral consensus--it's all about choices.  The logical conclusion of this is that nothing is completely unthinkable. 

 

This idea is not based on any objective information, and is inaccurate in its portrayal of human behavior. I think you're missing huge components of objective information, and that's partly why your conclusions are illogical and inaccurate.

[Mom-ninja.]

I didn't have time to really peruse the article, but one psychologist was likening this guys behavior to the mass shooters who cause much mayhem and death - then commit suicide.  they *want* to take lots of people with them.  made sense to me.  (well, as much as that can.)

 

apparently among the things they found in his apartment were drs notes excusing him from work for mental health reasons - he tore them all up.  one was dated the day of the crash. also rx for depression.

 

and the latest is the captain tried to use an ax to break into the cockpit.

 

This makes me want to vomit. I can not imagine the range of emotions the pilot was feeling. The horror of it all is gut wrenching. 

[Carol in Cal.]

This idea is not based on any objective information, and is inaccurate in its portrayal of human behavior. I think you're missing huge components of objective information, and that's partly why your conclusions are illogical and inaccurate.

The quote you referenced has nothing to do with human behavior at all.

I am not the one who is arguing illogically.

[Carol in Cal.]

This makes me want to vomit. I can not imagine the range of emotions the pilot was feeling. The horror of it all is gut wrenching. 

Me, too.  It's just horrifying.

[albeto.]

The quote you referenced has nothing to do with human behavior at all.

 

I don't follow. I referenced this comment:

 

To a large extent modern Western society teaches that morality is personal and not foundational or specific.  There is almost no moral consensus--it's all about choices.  The logical conclusion of this is that nothing is completely unthinkable. 

 

Are you suggesting morality and behavior are unrelated? That choices and behavior are unrelated?

 

I am not the one who is arguing illogically.

 

Can you be less vague and just say what you want me to know? I don't want to presume incorrectly. 

 

I say this because it seems you're skirting around the idea that this pilot flew a plane into a mountain side because "sin" confuses right from wrong, and he figured, "Wth? So what? Why not, eh? I want it, therefore it's as morally sound as any choice I could make."

[3 ladybugs]

I didn't have time to really peruse the article, but one psychologist was likening this guys behavior to the mass shooters who cause much mayhem and death - then commit suicide.  they *want* to take lots of people with them.  made sense to me.  (well, as much as that can.)

 

apparently among the things they found in his apartment were drs notes excusing him from work for mental health reasons - he tore them all up.  one was dated the day of the crash. also rx for depression.

 

and the latest is the captain tried to use an ax to break into the cockpit.

Where did they find an ax? That would never be allowed to be on carry on luggage here! Did they have access to the baggage hold?

[Carol in Cal.]

Where did they find an ax? That would never be allowed to be on carry on luggage here! Did they have access to the baggage hold?

I wonder whether there is an axe locked into the personnel area of the plane, to enable people to chop their way out of a crashed and maybe burning plane?  Like there used to be axes commonly present in fire fighting areas of buildings for the same purpose?

[3 ladybugs]

I wonder whether there is an axe locked into the personnel area of the plane, to enable people to chop their way out of a crashed and maybe burning plane? Like there used to be axes commonly present in fire fighting areas of buildings for the same purpose?

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the reinforced door? I mean obviously not on this flight, but in general?

[Carol in Cal.]

Maybe not if it's locked up?  I mean, I don't know.  To some extent there are always trade offs.

[Seasider]

To a rational person who is thinking clearly, it makes no sense at all.  That's why so many people in this thread have expressed doubt and/or shock that someone could take down an airplane full of people on purpose.  There is no explanation other than the co-pilot was not thinking clearly at all and for some reason, and we may never know the reason, he felt crashing the plane was the right course of action for him at the time.  I am glad I can't wrap my mind around what prompted him to do it.  Clearly he was hurting terribly for some reason to be brought to the point where he did what he did.

 

And part of me wonders if he hadn't deluded himself into believing that it wouldn't be figured out that it was deliberate. A plane crash, what a tragic thing, no shame associated with suicide...  Who can truly know what he was thinking?

 

Details and speculation are coming in rapidly, but the latest I heard was that there was a great deal of evidence suggesting he was having mental health challenges which he did not reveal to his employer. A guest on one of the news programs last night, a commercial pilot, stated that pilots do not have a system or tradition of self-reporting. Doctors and lawyers are obligated to report peers that exhibit questionable behavior, but she said this is not typical among pilots. It will be interesting to hear interviews with coworkers, which will likely run the gamut from "I had no idea!" to "I always felt he was a little off."

[Stacia]

Details and speculation are coming in rapidly, but the latest I heard was that there was a great deal of evidence suggesting he was having mental health challenges which he did not reveal to his employer. A guest on one of the news programs last night, a commercial pilot, stated that pilots do not have a system or tradition of self-reporting.

 

I can see that being the case. Pilots are smart people. Even if they suffer from depression, they are also probably extremely aware of the damage that being pulled off the job can probably do to their career. I would imagine there are quite a few people who have not self-reported, in the interest of self-preservation (income, reputation, etc...). I'm speculating, of course, but with the stigma in society of 'mental illness' & 'depression', many people choose to hide it (people of any profession).

 

I know there have been reports of medical excuse notes found, but no suicide note found. That also does not surprise me. I think that, to a certain extent, this had to be an act of opportunity. Perhaps the idea had entered his mind, but until the correct set of circumstances happened (being left alone in the cabin, flying over rugged terrain, etc...), he couldn't/wouldn't act. ???

 

The French prosecutor says that people only started screaming a few seconds before impact, implying they didn't realize anything until then. I would think, though, that unfortunately, many were aware there was a big problem for quite a few minutes beforehand. (I saw an article where Sully Sullenberger said the same thing -- that if the pilot was banging on the door, obviously people would realize there's a problem.) If the ax theory is also true, I would imagine that the passengers would have definitely known there was a problem in progress.

 

:crying: 

 

[eternalsummer]

Who teaches chimpanzees and young children morality?  

 

Oh, right, other chimpanzees and humans.  Where did they get it?  Did it just fall out of the sky?  No, there is an inherent sense of right/wrong, justice/injustice, good/bad.  It may be undeveloped/unrefined, but it exists, and it's where the foundation of our complex social morality comes from.

 

I agree that there is some movement recently towards relative morality instead of absolute morality in the West and I think it is a symptom of a degenerating culture/society, but we still have some basic moral tenets that are, for the most part, foundational; furthermore, the fiat law can never negate natural law.

 

 

[albeto.]

I agree that there is some movement recently towards relative morality instead of absolute morality in the West and I think it is a symptom of a degenerating culture/society, but we still have some basic moral tenets that are, for the most part, foundational; furthermore, the fiat law can never negate natural law.

 

Degenerating from what standard, exactly? 

[Murphy101]

I am no expert on mental health, but it is hard for me to imagine a person thinking that they should take down 150 people with them as well as an expensive airplane just because they were depressed and suicidal.

Well real life can frequently trump imaginations. Depressed, suicidal, not thinking rationally people killing other people with themselves is not unusual. Spouses kill their spouses & or their kids or other loved ones. Suicide by cop can take others too. Sometimes someone who thinks there's no point to living anymore doesn't restrict that perspective to just themselves.

 

FYI, this is what the CEO of Lufthansa also said: When asked if Lufthansa and Germanwings would describe the crash as a suicide, Spohr replied: "I'm not a lawyer, but I would say if that a person takes 149 other people with him to their deaths, then we need a word other than suicide."

 

So, he is trying not to use the word "murder".

Which means nothing. Not liking it doesn't change it.

[clementine]

I want to hear more about the main pilot - he was a father and did everything he could to save the passengers.  No more about the murderer.  

[Scarlett]

I couldn't disagree more. Besides the fact there's no such animal we can identify as "sin," to trivialize human behavior to such an amorphous construct is to neglect to accurately understand human behavior, and dismiss in some measure the need to develop pertinent tactics for the future. For all we know, once upon a time this co-pilot felt vulnerable and alone and frightened, and found some irrational, illogical idea to be his only hope. Wouldn't it be something if we could identify people who feel like this, and the circumstances that lead them to feeling like this, and learn to help them and avoid tragedy rather than writing it off as some religious failing?

 

 

Sigh.  

[AlmiraGulch]

 

 to trivialize human behavior to such an amorphous construct is to neglect to accurately understand human behavior, and dismiss in some measure the need to develop pertinent tactics for the future.

 

My citing of sin in the world as the reason that this happens only serves to give weight to the enormity of it, not to trivialize it.  Those who are most realistic about sin and its effects are among the most likely to try to take preventative action against possibilities like this, because they see them clearly instead of dismissing them as unlikely.

 

 

 

 

For all we know, once upon a time this co-pilot felt vulnerable and alone and frightened, and found some irrational, illogical idea to be his only hope. Wouldn't it be something if we could identify people who feel like this, and the circumstances that lead them to feeling like this, and learn to help them and avoid tragedy rather than writing it off as some religious failing?

 

It is a very common fallacy to believe that illogic or fright is the cause of something like this.  However, evil clearly exists, that is obvious by observation; and people are not necessarily inherently good until ruined by fright or other problems--that is the underlying fallacy to what you are saying.  We all have to be taught morals and behavior--they are not inherent.  Surely on a homeschooling board where we regularly discuss how to convey these very values that we find important, there is no need to argue about that.  Yes, absolutely we should address fear and loneliness and vulnerability, but we also need to teach and model kindness and also to convey that some things are unthinkable.

 

 

But you can be taught morals and righteous behavior and still make the choice to do something horrendous.

 

I realize you didn't say the these next words, so they are not necessarily meant toward you, specifically, but you cannot "pray away" mental illness or chemical imbalance in the brain.   So, I agree with albeto in that rather than toss our hands up and blame the devil for sin, and pray a bit harder, we would better serve society by destigmatizing the underying mental issues so that people will not feel the need to hide them, thus ending up on a downward spiral that kills hundreds of people. 

 

And sometimes (not necessarily in this case) people are just so sick they cannot be cured.  It's a chemical issue.  A brain issue.  One that often goes undiagnosed.  In many of these cases the best we can hope for is that it is uncovered and they are able to be treated before they kill themselves or others, but we know it doesn't always happen.  You can choose to call that "evil," but I choose to call it illness.  Not that it excuses the behavior or that it should go unpunished, but there are actual, medical reasons behind it.  

[albeto.]

I am bothered by the chimp morality. Chimps are fierce. I would not like to rely on the morality of a chimp. A bonobo, maybe..

 

I don't understand why morality comes into it here. Nobody knows what happened, but if the co-pilot wasn't in his right mind, that's not a lack of morality, that's a brain issue.

 

Idk. People do things that hurt many, and we call them evil, but i don't believe evil walks among us as a discrete entity. Some psychopaths lack empathy, and I guess they are closest to being 'evil' but it is beginning to look like there are brain issues there too.

 

It's just terrible all round.

 

I am most upset that they released info about the passengers screaming in the last minute or so. That should have remained private info for families to ask for or not ask for as they saw fit.

 

Chimps are moral, exhibiting compassion on innocent victims even. That TED talk I linked talks about this a bit.

 

Morality comes into it when tragic events and violent behaviors are attributed to "sin," or at least when events are attributed to "sin" and someone publicly disagrees. 

[albeto.]

Chimp society is aggressive.

 

Blasphemer!  They're cute and cuddly and clever and all those things I thought when I was a child and wanted a chimp for a pet!

 

[PrincessMommy]

It sounds like the co-pilot had more than just depression issues:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3015504/I-m-planning-heinous-act-remembered-forever-Killer-pilot-s-ex-girlfriend-says-shared-chilling-prophecy-Alps-crash-woke-nightmares-shouting-going-down.html

 

Sounds like he had some very serious mental health problems.

 

Hearing about him throwing away his doctor's orders to not fly makes me wonder what the medical privacy laws are like in Germany.  This raises a whole host of questions about employer's right to know vs. patient privacy vs the flying public's right to know (or anyone other type of transportation)

[albeto.]

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29237276

 

Chimps engage in murder.

 

I know they also exhibit behaviours we can call 'moral'. I'm not a chimp hater. 

 

Humans engage in murder, too. ;)  What makes a behavior moral is not whether or not we subjectively approve of it, but if the society in which that behavior is exhibited approves of it (I know you know this, I'm just leading up to my next question...). Do chimps show approval? I think they do, but I'm pretty ignorant about it. 

[Joanne]

SOME PEOPLE engage in violent behavior regardless of emotional well-being.

Not all people.

They do it to win, or to win out, or for gain. It's gross but it's true. Although psychology does explain why some get that way, it is by no means the entire answer in every case.

 

Look at video games, for instance. I know almost no boys who don't play violent, gory video games, whether they are emotionally stable or not. They find them entertaining. Why is that?

 

And most, by far, do not end up on a scale of trouble or dysfunction.

 

Why is THAT?

 

Probably wrapped up in the underfunded and under researched mental health understanding. The brain that crashes 150 people to death is pathological, medically, somehow and in some way. Something went wrong with functioning. Talking about "sin" or "evil" doesn't further understanding. Comfort and provide care for the living victims (families and loved ones) while looking to fill the actual existing holes in understanding.

 

Thinking of my alcoholism (now adequately treated for nearly 24 years) is "sin" is meaningless and indeed, misses the medical mark. I was alcoholic because of brain function and have been sober because I have cobbled together sufficient brain changing tools over this length of time. Science; not sin and redemption.

[Murphy101]

It sounds like the co-pilot had more than just depression issues:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3015504/I-m-planning-heinous-act-remembered-forever-Killer-pilot-s-ex-girlfriend-says-shared-chilling-prophecy-Alps-crash-woke-nightmares-shouting-going-down.html

 

Sounds like he had some very serious mental health problems.

 

Hearing about him throwing away his doctor's orders to not fly makes me wonder what the medical privacy laws are like in Germany. This raises a whole host of questions about employer's right to know vs. patient privacy vs the flying public's right to know (or anyone other type of transportation)

In order to even get a pilots license in the states you have to see an FAA approved dr and he has to send in paperwork for you saying you passed his exams or why you didn't pass. Numerous things can disqualify. This records are supposed to be private between the company and employee. For example, the main reasons people are denied is asthma and diminished vision. My dad's license was revoked when he had a heart attack resulting in a triple bypass. But that didn't mean the general public had a right to his medical info.

 

Idk how it works in Germany. Maybe with universal healthcare medical information is not given as much privacy? Or maybe much of this being released isn't supposed to be but such a big story is causing any dirt to be dug up and released anyways? Idk.

[Tsuga]

I heard someone from Germany's association of pilots or flight personnel on NPR. The privacy laws do not apply when mental health professionals are concerned for the lives of others. They can report.

 

In this case the pilot hid some things and other things did not get reported.

 

However the evidence against him is still circumstantial.

[kiwik]

I would imagine the axe was in a locked compartment for emergency purposes. I also imagine that in the circumstances knowing it wouldn't work wouldn't stop the captain trying to break down the door.

[Lucy in Australia]

I want to hear more about the main pilot - he was a father and did everything he could to save the passengers.  No more about the murderer.  

 

For Clementine, and the rest of us who feel the same way:

 

Captain Patrick Sondheimer. That's the pilot's name you want to remember

 

I was especially moved by this paragraph:

 

"We also thank the nameless Germanwings pilot who flew that same route the next day. He greeted every passenger and made an emotional speech to the, promising he would get them home safely. His empathy and grace will be remembered by every passenger on his plane and those of us who only read about his kindness."

[gardenmom5]

In order to even get a pilots license in the states you have to see an FAA approved dr and he has to send in paperwork for you saying you passed his exams or why you didn't pass. Numerous things can disqualify. This records are supposed to be private between the company and employee. For example, the main reasons people are denied is asthma and diminished vision. My dad's license was revoked when he had a heart attack resulting in a triple bypass. But that didn't mean the general public had a right to his medical info.

 

Idk how it works in Germany. Maybe with universal healthcare medical information is not given as much privacy? Or maybe much of this being released isn't supposed to be but such a big story is causing any dirt to be dug up and released anyways? Idk.

 

from what I have read - the drs in Germany are not allowed to disclose patient information to their employer.  even if they are a pilot.

the co-pilot was supposed to inform the airline - repeatedly told by his drs to inform the airline, and they gave him the paper work each time to give to the airline.  he ripped it all up, and made no contact.

 

he told his gf he was going to do something heinous for which he would be remembered.

 

the guy was beyond nuts.  (iow: this was not "just" depression.)

 

eta: he was also having vision problems and was paranoid he was going blind.

[Reefgazer]

I wonder how effective the FAA screening for depression is? I would think at some point, the patient would have to mention to the doctor that they are having depression or mental issues, otherwise, I can't see that it would be detected. Someone who wanted treatment but didn't want it on record could get it, if they were willing to pay cash, lie a bit about their career, and refuse to hand over a valid social security it ID number.

 

In order to even get a pilots license in the states you have to see an FAA approved dr and he has to send in paperwork for you saying you passed his exams or why you didn't pass. Numerous things can disqualify. This records are supposed to be private between the company and employee. For example, the main reasons people are denied is asthma and diminished vision. My dad's license was revoked when he had a heart attack resulting in a triple bypass. But that didn't mean the general public had a right to his medical info.

 

Idk how it works in Germany. Maybe with universal healthcare medical information is not given as much privacy? Or maybe much of this being released isn't supposed to be but such a big story is causing any dirt to be dug up and released anyways? Idk.

[goldberry]

I don't understand why morality comes into it here. Nobody knows what happened, but if the co-pilot wasn't in his right mind, that's not a lack of morality, that's a brain issue.

 

 

 

This.  The issue of morality and the nature of evil seems doesn't seem applicable here, given the information we have so far.  

[clementine]

For Clementine, and the rest of us who feel the same way:

 

Captain Patrick Sondheimer. That's the pilot's name you want to remember

 

I was especially moved by this paragraph:

 

"We also thank the nameless Germanwings pilot who flew that same route the next day. He greeted every passenger and made an emotional speech to the, promising he would get them home safely. His empathy and grace will be remembered by every passenger on his plane and those of us who only read about his kindness."

 

Thank you for posting this!

[regentrude]

Idk how it works in Germany. Maybe with universal healthcare medical information is not given as much privacy? Or maybe much of this being released isn't supposed to be but such a big story is causing any dirt to be dug up and released anyways? Idk.

 

The privacy laws are quite strict. Doctors may not disclose medical information about their patients - not to the patient's family, not to the patient's employer, and not even after death.

There is an exception: the doctor may disclose to authorities, if disclosing the information can prevent severe harm or a crime. (One example that was given is that a doctor can inform authorities if a patient who is impaired by alcohol, medications, or medical conditions continues to drive - but only after the doctor has counseled the patient and tried everything he could to prevent the patient from driving.)

 

It is currently debated to which degree the medical privacy protection should be weakened, in order, for example, to inform employers directly about patient's being too sick to work, without disclosing a diagnosis. Since medical privacy is considered very important in Germany (I fail to see how universal health care would have have anything to do with lack of privacy), this will be a complicated debate.

 

ETA: The police found the doctor's notes when searching the co pilot's house - that is how the information was uncovered.

[zoobie]

I haven't seen anything in the news from the doctors themselves. It's been leaks or reports from the police investigation that there were unfit to work notes in his apartment. The information that has been leaked or released has nothing to do with a universal healthcare system.

 

I wonder why his ex(?) fiancée didn't call someone when he kept talking about downing planes.

 

Because he was a non-descript white guy he has the "luxury" of acting alone. If he had been Muslim or ... instead, he wouldn't be *just* a homicidal maniac.

[Butter]

I wonder why his ex(?) fiancée didn't call someone when he kept talking about downing planes.

 

 

She may not have thought he was serious.  People blow off steam by saying weird things.  Ever been at the park and heard a mom say to a child, "I'm going to kill you!"  I have.  I didn't believe she would.  I thought she was frustrated and it's what came out of her mouth.  Ever heard someone say they want to punch or slap someone else?  Do you think they really will?  That vast majority of the time when someone says something like that they absolutely do not mean it and will not do it.  It's easy knowing what you know know to say "Why didn't she tell someone?" but she very likely could have thought it was just something he was saying and would never do.

[gardenmom5]

I

 

I wonder why his ex(?) fiancée didn't call someone when he kept talking about downing planes.

 

I haven't read he made specific threats about downing planes - but of committing a "heinous act and he would be remembered".

 

I have also read he was becoming more obsessive and compulsive and she left him because of that.