Tess Holiday, Plus size model

[SproutMamaK]

I noticed that one point Quill said she hates seeing extra weight on herself and doesn't want to see it on anyone else. That kind of puts this in a different perspective for me.

 

When a person doesn't look the way they look, they bully THEMSELVES. And sometimes, that turns outwards. We look in the mirror and beat ourselves and so horrible things to ourselves about how we look and eventually we learn to hate ourselves, and hate anyone that reminds us of those things we hate about ourselves. Heck, sometimes we even hate people who don't agree with our hating ourselves! Show of hands here, ladies, who here has ever been uncomfortable or felt disturbed (or even grossed out) when your husband actually dares to be attracted to your body? :seeya:

This is EXACTLY why having plus size models is so important. It's about changing how we speak to ourselves ABOUT ourselves, and in turn how we relate to and think of others. Take a look at how we're responding to what's been said here tonight. Haven't we all said the same thigns to ourselves in our heads a million times over? But now, hearing it come from someone else... we see just how disturbing and wrong it is, and we fight against it. The next time you talk to yourself this way when you look in a mirror, remind yourself that you've heard that before and that it was so wrong. It's so much easier to recognize the hatred for what it is when it's not coming from yourself.

[elegantlion]

She looks like she is selling self-esteem. If you read the article, you'll see her and her mother were victims of domestic violence. I don't know what kind. 

 

I do know that any kind of abuse can wreak havoc on a person's self-esteem, many time into body image. 

 

Do we want our daughters to be strong? Part of that strength requires a healthy self-image, including body image. 

 

Is she overweight, yes. Does she display a confidence that probably many her weight don't have, yes. 

 

Having a poor self-image and I was not overweight was devastating to my self-image and the choices I made as a teen and young adult about how a man might perceive me. I cannot imagine being an overweight young girl and wondering how many people feel disgusted by seeing me clothed, much less thinking about a man finding me attractive as a mate. 

 

She's modeling lingerie, I think they still let all models do that. 

 

We all have issues, some show on our bodies, some show in other ways - like the words we use. Let us not bully our own. 

[Guest]

You can't see the difference between not thinking it's attractive and "disgusting/gross"?? Between referring to someone as a pig and just not finding them attractive? Really? How would you feel if I saw your legs and told people how gross they are? If I referred to you as a barn yard animal? You don't think that's mean?

 

Well, it is.

I never called the model a pig. Since it has been pointed out that lard is specifically the fat of a pig, then I won't use that term anymore. But I did not call her a pig.

 

I think it is disgusting to post photos of one's butt in lace thongs. I believe the word "disgusting" means "turns the stomach." Yes, it turns my stomach that any woman would cheapen herself by posting those photos of herself.

[elegantlion]

I never called the model a pig. Since it has been pointed out that lard is specifically the fat of a pig, then I won't use that term anymore. But I did not call her a pig.

 

I think it is disgusting to post photos of one's butt in lace thongs. I believe the word "disgusting" means "turns the stomach." Yes, it turns my stomach that any woman would cheapen herself by posting those photos of herself.

 

 

Are you equally disgusted by the Victoria's Secret models? I'm asking seriously. Do you only have such a visceral reaction to someone who is a size 22? 

[Danestress]

Yeah, well I'm tightly wound tonight. I have been in conversations here about fat and I'm sick of being silent. The images of this woman I saw on google are disgusting. If my dd was wearing a lace thong and bra on the internet, no matter her size, I would be absolutely ashamed. If she were showing off her rolls of lard, I would be as ashamed as I would be if she were showing off her beautiful tiny butt.

 

On this board, saying fat is ugly and/or unhealthy is The Great Taboo. Well, like I said, I'm wound up tonight, so I'm saying it. I think those photos are gross. I don't admire my own lard and I sure don't want to admire anyone else's. I admire women with physiques like Gabrielle Reese's. YMMV, of course.

  

 

But But But, Quill.  You have a bikini picture of yourself on your website.  It covers more than a thong but ..... not much.  Your pose might be more demure.  But really, do you have a line somewhere when a woman crosses from looking like a Mom wearing two little scraps of fabric and becomes a "wh@re?"  Would you be okay with your daughter posting photos of herself in a bikini like yours, but not a thong and bra?  Because while I have my lines for myself too (and they are admittedly arbitrary), it just seems like it must be a very fine one to go from, "In this, I will pose for my Mom Blog," to "absolutely ashamed/looks like a wh@re."  

 

Or is weight the factor here?  What she looks shameful because there is more of her to see?

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Saying cruel things about people because of their looks is bullying plain and simple.  No excuse for that.

 

Even if Tess Holiday didn't get paid for modeling I would think she was beautiful for wanting to bring a message of beauty and acceptance to women.  For what it's worth, i would think she was beautiful for that no matter what her size.  

[Cammie]

There were no thong shots in the Today link that was posted by the OP.

 

That means you went looking for MORE pictures of the model in question.  Then were surprised that a model actually modeled lingerie?? 

 

 

[ktgrok]

But But But, Quill.  You have a bikini picture of yourself on your website.  

 

Or is weight the factor here?  What she looks shameful because there is more of her to see?

 

 

 

Wait....Quill, you are trying to backtrack and say she's just dressed to skimpily when you have photos of yoursel on the internet in a bikini? Wow.

[Guest]

Are you equally disgusted by the Victoria's Secret models? I'm asking seriously. Do you only have such a visceral reaction to someone who is a size 22?

I most often think VS models are disgusting.

[Laura Cook]

What is lard? It is fat. Tess Holiday has copious amounts of fat that is not being used as fuel by her body.

 

I don't care how much fat anyone here may have. The OP asked a question about whether or not this is a standard we (as a very overweight nation) should normalize. My opinion, which believe it or not, is also valuable, is that NO, we should not normalize obesity. We should not applaud her for being willing to flaunt her fat in god-awful revealing photos. It is exceedingly undignified and demeaning.

 

Posters immediately jump to saying we glorifying skinny women in this country. Well, that was not the question that was asked. Also, I have noticed at least a bazillion times in these threads that nobody minds "judging" thin women as starved anorexics.

 

I think it will eventually get normalized whether some want it to or not. I agree, we are an overweight nation, and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. If normalizing it means that people will stop fat shaming overweight people, I'm okay with that. Bunny trail: Why do women seem to do this to other women more than men do it to women? If normalizing it means that models will represent all the wonderful shapes and sizes women come in, I'm okay with that. People are objecting to your wording. It could have been done with much more tact. Is part of your issue with this woman that she is wearing very little clothes in the photos you've seen?

 

I don't think that judging thin women is okay either. I know several women who are incredibly thin and they aren't anorexic. They eat like everyone else. They are just lucky enough to have good genes or something. And its just as hurtful for them to read that people think they are sick or anorexic as it is for overweight people to read that they are disgusting.

[Guest]

Wait....Quill, you are trying to backtrack and say she's just dressed to skimpily when you have photos of yoursel on the internet in a bikini? Wow.

Yep. There's a bikini photo of me on my blog. Some on FB, too, now it's mentioned. There are no lace thong photos of me on the internet. No bra pictures. None of my ass at all, actually. None taken from behind. None of me sitting on a couch with no top on, arms strategically placed.

[Guest]

There were no thong shots in the Today link that was posted by the OP.

 

That means you went looking for MORE pictures of the model in question. Then were surprised that a model actually modeled lingerie??

Yes, I googled her name to understand the story before I commented on it. Is there something unusual about doing that?

[Guest]

I noticed that one point Quill said she hates seeing extra weight on herself and doesn't want to see it on anyone else. That kind of puts this in a different perspective for me.

 

And funnily enough, I called my own fat "lard." So I'm equally disgusted by my own lardy bits.

 

dH has his share of fat, too. I still make TeA with him. I focus on his hunky shoulders and he promises not to mention my veins.

[Joanne]

The idea that it is normal is contagious. Portion sizes, food choices, whether or not to exercise...all contagious. In the same sense that yawning is contagious. We're speaking of social contagion. SOMETHING has to explain the huge increase in obesity rates not just on this country, but any country we influence. We all have a stake in how all of this plays out.

 

Also, what do you mean when you call obesity a disease? A disease like in a sickness? How is that ok but saying that it's socially contagious not ok? Makes no logical sense, imo.

 

 

Let me tell you *exactly* what I mean. I mean that if you take pure calories in/calories out science, I should not weigh what I do. Period. Full stop. End of story.

 

I did not get here by over-eating and under-moving. I did not get here by lack of self control. I did not get here by "food addiction." Or lack of strength.

 

I did not. I got here eating the same or less of many people who are size 8, 10, 12, 14 or less than 200 or 150.

 

That is why WW did not work for me. That is why "get yourself together" crap doesn't work for me.

 

*Something else* is going on with obesity in a significant number of cases - a significant percentage. But people are going to continue to hold onto the "fat = lazy and weak" paradigm for years to come. I'll be long gone before the majority of people believe that science will someday reveal (the SAME way it is doing for addiction): it is a physiological issue.

 

 

 

[Cammie]

Yes, I googled her name to understand the story before I commented on it. Is there something unusual about doing that?

 

 

 

It seems to me that if you don't like looking at XYZ, googling for more information/pictures about XYZ is an unusual thing to do, yes.

[elegantlion]

I most often think VS models are disgusting.

 

 

Okay, so you don't like lingerie models. That's okay, really. 

 

"lard" is really a triggery word for me too. In junior high I had a kid call me a lard a$$ when I got off the bus for a long time. I wore a junior size 9 at the time. No one, including my sister or my "friends" at the bus stop called him on it. I never told my parents because I knew they'd blow it off. 

 

I lived 4 houses from the bus stop and there were many days I'd be in tears by the time I exited the bus and got home. 

 

I looked in the mirror and saw fat, I saw failure, I saw ostracized. I was a size 9 for god's sake and that was before vanity sizing. 

 

After age 40 I realized all of those words were still with me, haunting me, keeping me thinking from I was beautiful. It still makes me cry thinking about because NO ONE intervened upon my behalf. I still struggle with feelings of worthlessness and when I dig deep, I realize a lot of it is because of how I view my body and things there I can't change, like my leg length or my arm length or my damned curly hair. 

 

I'm not putting a thong on for anyone, but models do and if she is a 5'4" tattooed size 22 and still asked to pose in lingerie, then by golly she's got confidence and gumption. You don't have to pose in a thong for that, but maybe she will inspire some people to love what they got, even if they're not happy with it. 

[Joker]

Let me tell you *exactly* what I mean. I mean that if you take pure calories in/calories out science, I should not weigh what I do. Period. Full stop. End of story.

 

I did not get here by over-eating and under-moving. I did not get here by lack of self control. I did not get here by "food addiction." Or lack of strength.

 

I did not. I got here eating the same or less of many people who are size 8, 10, 12, 14 or less than 200 or 150.

 

That is why WW did not work for me. That is why "get yourself together" crap doesn't work for me.

 

*Something else* is going on with obesity in a significant number of cases - a significant percentage. But people are going to continue to hold onto the "fat = lazy and weak" paradigm for years to come. I'll be long gone before the majority of people believe that science will someday reveal (the SAME way it is doing for addiction): it is a physiological issue.

 

Yes. Dh and I eat the same food (only I actually eat less of it) and he has been told to gain five pounds while I've been told to lose fifty. I also move more than he does because he is behind a desk or in meetings all day. I'm sick and tired of people thinking I'm fat because I eat this or that or don't do this or that. It's ridiculous.

 

 

Quill, I think your bikini photo is awesome. I just wish you could see how awesome it is of those overweight to post similar photos. I wish you could see how important it is to lift others up instead of tearing them down.

 

[Guest]

Would you be okay with your daughter posting photos of herself in a bikini like yours, but not a thong and bra?

I'm pretty sure there are some pictures of my DD in a bikini on FB, so, no, I don't care if she wears a bikini IRL or on the web. A thong and bra, I would not want because they are underwear. You know - under. In terms of material coverage they might be fairly comparable, but one is for private wearing and the other is not. That is the difference.

 

Irrelevant sidebar: I'm not a big fan of lingerie business/modeling/advertisement in any case. It wouldn't be my dream for my kid and I really wish it would just go away.

 

Another irrelevant sidebar: I photoshopped the beach picture a little bit.

[SproutMamaK]

And funnily enough, I called my own fat "lard." So I'm equally disgusted by my own lardy bits.

 

dH has his share of fat, too. I still make TeA with him. I focus on his hunky shoulders and he promises not to mention my veins.

 

Yeah, that was kind of my point. You're clearly disgusted by it. Try to excuse the rest of us who would rather not spend our lives disgusted with our bodies and try to accept and even *gasp* enjoy them. Oh sorry, we probably shouldn't have that right until we fit into your ideal mold for "not disgusting". Which from what I've seen means you can't be skinny like a Victoria's Secret model, that's disgusting. And you can't be fat like this girl, that's disgusting. Posting bikini pics on the internet is okay, so long as you pose in certain approved positions and are within a certain BMI range (please check the list before taking a bikini pic to ensure that your pose has been pre-approved).

 

Or perhaps the issue here is that sometimes lingerie models actually have pictures taken while wearing lingerie, and that you think that sort of thing should be kept private. A very interesting discussion that would be, except that is not at all what this thread is about.

 

Geez Louise, up until you always struck me as a conscientious poster and suddenly you've turned into a big, name-calling bully who won't back down even after you've made people cry. Heck, you even implicitly made fun of people for crying! I'm not sure what's going on with you, but if your kids were saying things like this to other people on the internet, wouldn't you be horrified? Not sure what's up with you tonight but as someone who's never felt anything but respect for your posts up until now I think maybe you really should back away and give yourself some time to talk yourself down from whatever's got you so on edge.

[KidsHappen]

twice your body weight is a perfectly valid choice?

 

 

No one chooses to be overweight and even if they did I think weight is much less maleable than people without weight problems seem to think. 

 

If you have not struggled with weight then I really don't think can understand.how little control people can have over their weight. 

 

If you don't have a weight problem, it is really easy to believe it is because you are doing all the right things when that might not neccessarily the case. Much like parents who have an easy first child and think that it is because they did all the right things only to figure out after having a very difficult subsequent child that they just got lucky the first time. My life history is a case in point. 

 

I weighed 135 lbs my entire adult life (which has been pretty long at this point). Didn't matter how much I ate or exercised. About 3 years ago my dr. put me on a bi-polar med that caused me to gain 50 lbs in a single month. Of course, I stopped taking that med right away but I only lost 10lbs. I am still carrying around the other 40 lbs three years later. My overall health is the same as is my caloric input/output and my dr. is not worried about the weight at all. He has basically said that there was no point in trying to lose it (unless it was really bothering me (which it is not) and if that was the case it would probably be extremely difficult to do (based on my current my caloric input/output). I am not doing anything that is causing me to weigh more now nor was I doing anything different previously that caused me to weigh less then and I have no doubt that if I hadn't taken that med I would still weigh the same that I always did. I fully believe that I have absolutely no control over my weight and I know that if that is the case for me then certainly it could be the case for others as well. 

 

I am currently about 25 lbs overweight and I am actually quite happy with my new body and I am one of the people celebrating the new acceptance of curvy girls. Here is a link to my Pintrest board dedicated to just this subject: https://www.pinterest.com/kidshappen/curvy-girls/  (caution; there is some brief passive nudity).

[Btervet]

This thread is a perfect example of why we need MORE plus size models.

 

Clearly, the message that you can be worthy of respect even if you are obese and/or unhealthy has not caught on enough. Clearly, some people still need this lesson. 

 

No one is saying obesity is healthy. People are saying that those of us who are obese are worthy of love and respect. 

 

We need people who say yes, you may be unhealthy, you may be overweight, but you are STILL beautiful and are NOT a lump of fat that should be shamed into health. 

 

I buy underwear. It does me no good to see how that looks on an average sized model. That doesn't help me determine if my "sexy" underwear will look sexy on my body. Models that look like me do. They let me know it's OK to try to look beautiful. They let me know I do not have to hide in a brown paper sack just so someone doesn't see my fat rolls. They let me know it's OK to think I am beautiful.

 

They aren't telling me to get fatter. They are telling me to love who I am right now. Everyone should love who they are. Even if where we are isn't ideal. 

 

The model in the OP made me smile and want to do my hair and get some pretty clothes. The horrid shaming that came after made me want to drown my sorrows in cookies and ice cream. Tell me, which promotes obesity?

[Guest]

Okay, so you don't like lingerie models. That's okay, really.

 

"lard" is really a triggery word for me too. In junior high I had a kid call me a lard a$$ when I got off the bus for a long time. I wore a junior size 9 at the time. No one, including my sister or my "friends" at the bus stop called him on it. I never told my parents because I knew they'd blow it off.

 

I lived 4 houses from the bus stop and there were many days I'd be in tears by the time I exited the bus and got home.

 

I looked in the mirror and saw fat, I saw failure, I saw ostracized. I was a size 9 for god's sake and that was before vanity sizing.

 

After age 40 I realized all of those words were still with me, haunting me, keeping me thinking from I was beautiful. It still makes me cry thinking about because NO ONE intervened upon my behalf. I still struggle with feelings of worthlessness and when I dig deep, I realize a lot of it is because of how I view my body and things there I can't change, like my leg length or my arm length or my damned curly hair.

 

I'm not putting a thong on for anyone, but models do and if she is a 5'4" tattooed size 22 and still asked to pose in lingerie, then by golly she's got confidence and gumption. You don't have to pose in a thong for that, but maybe she will inspire some people to love what they got, even if they're not happy with it.

I understand that - haunts from childhood. I have them, too. I should not have used lard; I see it now. The word doesn't have weight to me. (Hey look! A pun!) I was teased for being thin. Two boys made up a rhyme, as boys are wont to do, since my last name rhymed nicely with bench. Hey, Benchie! Such a cuter nickname than Frenchie, right? I was relentlessly harassed for my uncool Goodwill clothes. And my cheap haircut. And my self-inflicted hair cuts. I was Dan-Smell. And on and on and on.

[Cammie]

 

The model in the OP made me smile and want to do my hair and get some pretty clothes.

 

Go, do it.  Treat yourself like the Queen you know you are!  Enjoy your life and your body - let the world know that you love yourself!!

 

(I'm going to do it too! Just scheduled a pedicure for later today...and stopping to pick up some new clothes as well!)

[Cammie]

I understand that - haunts from childhood. I have them, too. I should not have used lard; I see it now. The word doesn't have weight to me. (Hey look! A pun!) I was teased for being thin. Two boys made up a rhyme, as boys are wont to do, since my last name rhymed nicely with bench. Hey, Benchie! Such a cuter nickname than Frenchie, right? I was relentlessly harassed for my uncool Goodwill clothes. And my cheap haircut. And my self-inflicted hair cuts. I was Dan-Smell. And on and on and on.

 

Quill - I am truly sorry that your childhood self suffered such taunts.  It was cruel and should not have happened. 

[Guest]

Let me tell you *exactly* what I mean. I mean that if you take pure calories in/calories out science, I should not weigh what I do. Period. Full stop. End of story.

 

I did not get here by over-eating and under-moving. I did not get here by lack of self control. I did not get here by "food addiction." Or lack of strength.

 

I did not. I got here eating the same or less of many people who are size 8, 10, 12, 14 or less than 200 or 150.

 

That is why WW did not work for me. That is why "get yourself together" crap doesn't work for me.

 

*Something else* is going on with obesity in a significant number of cases - a significant . But people are going to continue to hold onto the "fat = lazy and weak" paradigm for years to come. I'll be long gone before the majority of people believe that science will someday reveal (the SAME way it is doing for addiction): it is a physiological issue.

Mark Hyman says this, too. He talks about the quality of the foods we eat and also the effect on glycemic index. His detox thing has done amazing things for a friend of mine. Not just weight loss, but tremendous turn around in health metrics.

 

FWIW, I thought most of the prominent health guru folks nowadays DON't say fat=lazy and weak.

[kiana]

Yep. There's a bikini photo of me on my blog. Some on FB, too, now it's mentioned. There are no lace thong photos of me on the internet. No bra pictures. None of my ass at all, actually. None taken from behind. None of me sitting on a couch with no top on, arms strategically placed.

 

The point people are trying to make is that there are people out there who react to bikini shots just as you've reacted to the thong shot, using similar words as you used about her and the thong shot. And looking at your pic (which is lovely, btw) and saying words like that would probably be pretty hurtful.

[Guest]

Quill - I am truly sorry that your childhood self suffered such taunts. It was cruel and should not have happened.

Thanks, but it is the past. It happens to a hell of a lot of people. It doesn't inform my life now; I even buy clothes at Goodwill sometimes.

[Guest]

The point people are trying to make is that there are people out there who react to bikini shots just as you've reacted to the thong shot, using similar words as you used about her and the thong shot. And looking at your pic (which is lovely, btw) and saying words like that would probably be pretty hurtful.

But kiana, I don't care. I'm sure the Michelle Duggars of the world would be horrified at Mom in a bikini on the 'net. I know some people judge that as inappropriate - we've had the Moms in Bikinis thread on here about a dozen times. I mean, no..i'm not saying I would like it necessarily, if someone, let's say, put up a post that said, "OMG, look at this blog photo from one of our own posters! Sitting on the beach in this small green bikini! What a whore! What a horrible influence on young ladies!" I'm not saying I would really *enjoy* that. I'm saying after I snorted and said, "What the heck is your problem?" It just wouldn't matter.

 

Look, the woman who is modeling - do you imagine she went into this thinking she would get nothing but praise? Not a chance. She is giving everyone who doesn't like it the finger, hence the hashtag "eff your body standard." I guarantee she has seen comments that make this thread look like a church sermon. I guess I can say one thing - she has some chutzpah.

[kiana]

But kiana, I don't care.

 

Maybe you don't care what people say about you.

 

But calling people whores is incredibly crass. Even if you DO know that they have intercourse for money, it's still crass.

 

And you don't know that. She's just skimpily dressed now.

[goldberry]

This thread is a perfect example of why we need MORE plus size models.

 

Clearly, the message that you can be worthy of respect even if you are obese and/or unhealthy has not caught on enough. Clearly, some people still need this lesson. 

 

No one is saying obesity is healthy. People are saying that those of us who are obese are worthy of love and respect. 

 

 

 

I am reading this thread intently, really trying to understand the different viewpoints here.  

 

Here is what I don't really get.  Models are representative of a standard of physical beauty.  Why do we need more plus size models to send a message that those who are obese are worthy of love and respect?  Everyone is worthy of love and respect.  EVERYONE.

 

 

If I say my stretch marks are not beautiful, and I would rather wear a swimsuit that covers them (and therefore is more flattering to me in general) what does that have to do AT ALL with being worthy of love and respect?  Or even with feeling that I am attractive and sexy?  The idea that I am self-bullying or have poor self-esteem because I would rather cover my stretch marks than flaunt them is inaccurate and presumptive.    

 

I personally don't think tons of extra weight is physically attractive on me or on anyone else.  Some people do find it attractive, and some men find it very sexy.  Good for them.  It's not especially attractive to me.  Does that mean I have poor self-esteem because I am overweight right now?  Heck no.  I don't base my self esteem on my physical attractiveness, nor do I think anyone should.  My husband and I will both one day be old and wrinkly and probably not very physically attractive.  Does that mean I won't still love making tea with him?  I always will.  I love him as a person and as a soul and I am attracted to those things.  But for heaven's sake, that doesn't mean I have to pretend that hair growing out of someone's ear is attractive!  Or fat, or stretch marks.  I can still love myself and love my husband, and still have darn good self esteem and still enjoy making tea, because it's about much more than just physical attractiveness.

 

To me, this model is not promoting "love and respect" she is promoting a standard of physical beauty.  That's what models do.  Separate deal, and people are free to disagree with that standard without it being "fat-shaming" or thinking that she is lazy-sick-morally bankrupt.

 

There will always be some people who are not physically beautiful according to whatever the cultural norm is.  Why not focus on separating personal value from physical beauty rather than trying to have more models representing?  Why do we "need more models" for that? 

[Joanne]

 

 

Look, the woman who is modeling - do you imagine she went into this thinking she would get nothing but praise? Not a chance. She is giving everyone who doesn't like it the finger, hence the hashtag "eff your body standard." I guarantee she has seen comments that make this thread look like a church sermon. I guess I can say one thing - she has some chutzpah.

Because the standard kills literally and figuratively. Because the standard is shaming, misogynist, ageist, and patriarchical. Because the standard does not productive in terms of physical or mental health.

 

Yea, eff that standard.

[Btervet]

I am reading this thread intently, really trying to understand the different viewpoints here.  

 

Here is what I don't really get.  Models are representative of a standard of physical beauty.  Why do we need more plus size models to send a message that those who are obese are worthy of love and respect?  Everyone is worthy of love and respect.  EVERYONE.

 

--------

 

There will always be some people who are not physically beautiful according to whatever the cultural norm is.  Why not focus on separating personal value from physical beauty rather than trying to have more models representing?  Why do we "need more models" for that? 

 

I think that's a great ideal. The reality is we aren't there yet. And we should work on that. I absolutely support changes to society so that it doesn't wrap up a women's self-worth in her looks. 

 

However, that doesn't mean we ignore where we are. Right now, when a women never sees a model that looks like her, never see's an actress that looks like her, never see's a high powered business woman that looks like her, it hurts. At least, it does for me and many I know. When people shame and bully you, and was done over and over in this thread, it hurts. It makes it feel like you AREN'T worthy of respect. 

 

When you can see someone, who looks like you, wearing clothes that are beautiful and even sexy, it can help you feel like it's OK for you to go get those clothes. It's OK for you to feel sexy. That you don't have to feel disgust when you look in the mirror and see fat rolls. 

 

Should we separate self worth from physical beauty? Yes, absolutely. How do we do that? Does this one obese model stop us from doing that? Is SHE the reason our society ties up a women's worth with her looks? I don't think so. 

 

If we are going try to take all of the emotion out of the picture, and just let bodies be bodies, then her model is a good thing on that front too. It's practical. I want to know what clothes will look like on my body. Not on a size 2 or 6 or 8. So even ignoring all of the body image issues, we still need more plus size models for completely practical reasons. 

[Btervet]

Go, do it.  Treat yourself like the Queen you know you are!  Enjoy your life and your body - let the world know that you love yourself!!

 

(I'm going to do it too! Just scheduled a pedicure for later today...and stopping to pick up some new clothes as well!)

 

Thank you! This was so kind. 

[Cammie]

 

To me, this model is not promoting "love and respect" she is promoting a standard of physical beauty.  That's what models do.  Separate deal, and people are free to disagree with that standard without it being "fat-shaming" or thinking that she is lazy-sick-morally bankrupt.

 

There will always be some people who are not physically beautiful according to whatever the cultural norm is.  Why not focus on separating personal value from physical beauty rather than trying to have more models representing?  Why do we "need more models" for that? 

 

It is promoting a "standard" when 99.9% of models look one way (as they do.) It is NOT promoting a standard when 0.1% of models looks different than the standard.  You don't have to like how it looks, that is absolutely fine. 

 

Yes, it would be WONDERFUL if personal value was separated from physical appearance.  Chances of it happening in our lifetime - slim to none.

 

Why do we need more models that represent a variety of sizes  - so that people do not feel alone, do not feel ashamed, do not feel that they are undeserving of attention.  We need more models of all sizes so that ALL women can see themselves represented in ads and fashion and life.  That is why we need models of all races and ages too IMHO.

[Guest]

Because the standard kills literally and figuratively. Because the standard is shaming, misogynist, ageist, and patriarchical. Because the standard does not productive in terms of physical or mental health.

 

Yea, eff that standard.

Well, I disagree that the standard is those things. There are many, many people who do not fit all aspects of standard beauty, but who are celebrated anyway. Someone like Meryl Streep, say.

 

Besides, this is essentially saying that looking good in any respect is only done to please men. This is not so. I like my hair to look a certain way. Why would I bother? Because it is pleasing to me to feel my hair or look at my hair a certain way. Dh generally likes it, but it isn't for him. It's not mysogenistic if my hair is as he likes it.

[Paige]

I think she looks beautiful because she looks confident and she looks like she feels beautiful! Her health is irrelevant to her beauty, IMO. It's pretty common these days to see pictures of cancer patients and people with other health issues as beautiful as well, so I don't see why seeing her as unhealthy has to mean we can't see her as beautiful too. Beauty isn't reserved for the perfectly fit and healthy. 

 

I don't choose to have pictures of myself taken in lingerie or other revealing clothes, but I don't care if she does. If that's what she wants... We can have different standards of beauty, different standards of modesty, and different standards of behavior, and still value people and be friends. It's not disgusting for someone else to have a different opinion of what's right or beautiful or fair. If she had come out publicly as being against lingerie and swimwear photos as being degrading and immoral, and then did pictures for the money, that would be selling out. I get the impression that she is and always has been perfectly fine with what she's doing. How is that selling out?

 

 

 

 

[MaeFlowers]

Anorexia presents a more immediate health risk to people than obesity, for one.

 

For another, underweight models are responding to the industry's artists' desire to see clothes hanging and flowing, an aesthetic which is not drawn from actual human bodies, and it is a problem that is not coming from popular demand to see models that look like the starving masses.

 

Moreover, many of the underweight models actually have tailored or model-size clothes. They don't sell those clothes off the rack because almost nobody is that size. I'm a size 0. I can't wear model clothing: it's too small AND too long. Those models are being asked to fit a form that simply cannot exist alive in nature for long.

 

Plus-size models, on the other hand, are modeling clothes that are actually being sold to people who are really that size.

 

I say, if you're selling clothes that size, model them on someone that size. Go for it. I do think there are issues with food in our country but I don't think they come from having plus-sized models modeling the clothes that have been on the racks for years and years.

 

 

In a word, no.

 

In a link, here are the norms: http://www.modelingadvice.com/fashionModelSize.html

 

5'6 and 108 lbs is underweight.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/01/most-models-meet-criteria-for-anorexia-size-6-is-plus-size-magazine/

 

I have written this before and it is critical to understand: 1 lb underweight = 10 lbs overweight in terms of death risk. Being 10 lbs underweight is like being 100 lbs overweight.

 

http://consumer.healthday.com/vitamins-and-nutrition-information-27/obesity-health-news-505/underweight-even-deadlier-than-obesity-study-says-686240.html

 

So yeah, I wouldn't encourage anyone to be overweight, but having a couple fat models is really not the problem I personally see in the modeling industry...

 

 

Yeah, models are normally so healthy looking!!!

 

Well, maybe the ones in the Sears circular.

 

Really, if they are selling clothes in that size, it seems sensible to have models that can wear those sizes. I don't think there's any debate to be had.

 

 

Why is it ok for us to glamorize the underweight? ( I guess because a lot find them appealing to look at) Anorexic (looking)models have done much more damage to public health as a whole then any obese model will ever do, they may make it to some degree but there is still a huge prejudice in our society against the overweight. Why can't we just accept that models aren't some kind of health ambassadors but for fashion or to represent what we find attractive, and why in the world can't fat people be attractive?

 

 

Amazing.

 

We have been bombarded with images of sick looking, anorexic women as our "ideal standard of beauty" for as long as I can remember. Most of them pretty close to naked in many pictures as well.

 

And yet, it is a handful of plus size models who are being taken to task for "unhealthy" standards of beauty.  REALLY?  And called derogatory names.

 

So, ok, we have maybe 5-6 plus size models who are getting some media coverage.  And we have HUNDREDS of anorexics with collar bones sticking out and countable ribs... Yeah, I think focusing on the fat ladies is perhaps not the right way to go.

Bold is mine.

 

So, it's not okay to insult the overweight but you can talk about thin people this way. Not cool. And no different. These comments hurt. There is no such thing as a "normal' body size. We can all have ideals but they are simply a matter of perspective.

I grew up thin. I have spent my entire life being "underweight" by those stupid BMI charts. Skinny people struggle with their weight as well, they just try everything under the sun to gain weight so they can fit into this "normal". So they won't be called sickly and anorexia looking. So they won't be told to go eat a burger. So the clothes on the rack actually fit them. And so they don't have to cry themselves to sleep at night.

[Tsuga]

I am very slim. I am size 0. I have two pairs of 00 pants. /humblebrag. I am NOT shaming slim. I LOVE my healthy body.

 

There is a difference between being 10 lbs underweight, which is literally starving, and being slim.

 

And when I was 5 lbs underweight, and I started doing everything in my power to gain weight and I never felt shamed for being slim. You know why?

 

Because our society treats skinny people better. Like they have self control. I'm not white so I don't have white privilege but I see it. I AM slim so I see slim privilege. Do I enjoy it? I guess, as long as I can enjoy something knowing that it comes at the expense of others.

 

I'm sorry, but there is no "skinny shaming" that compares to "fat shaming" just like "reverse racism" is not really a thing.

 

 

Us poor skinny people, right? Must be tough to have everyone assume we have self-control? Being told to eat a burger which we were going to do anyway because who are we kidding, someone has to eat that burger guilt-free, right?

 

Sorry, Mae. I just really do not think skinny hate is a problem in the way fat hate is. Maybe because I deal with racism (infrequently personally, but also as a social problem, in my job) I just cannot buy this.

 

I do wish you the best of luck in getting healthy. Weight training helped me. That, and whole cream.

 

But nope, sorry, skinny hate is just not the same because no matter what anyone may say about wanting a burger, the model of attractiveness society puts up validates my size, and not other sizes.

 

 

[Tsuga]

I come from a long line of fat, healthy people who live well into their 90s without any health issues. The one difference between them and me is that I stress and worry about my weight. They embraced who they were and didn't stress or worry. It just wasn't/isn't something they did/do. I'm a good 50 lbs overweight. I am obese at this point but I have a good low blood pressure, perfect cholesterol, and zero health problems. Yet, I keep stressing that I am going to have them because of what I see online and in the media.

 

I say good for her! I wish I didn't have the hang ups I do about my weight.

 

If you're the same size as your grandma and mom who were also 50 lbs over, maybe you're not overweight for you (see my signature). :)

 

Pardon my french, but f$&% the norms. You're as beautiful as your grandma and mom ever were.

[swimmermom3]

I'm skimming so I didn't see the 50 pounds thing. I'm pretty sure the model Is morbidly obese and since that was the original post that's who I was referring to.

 

Aside from that, again I'll ask, why is the rate of obesity increasing, even among children where the population of obese children used to be TINY? I know it's hard to take weight off. Sometimes it's impossible. Although my mom used to be about 50-60lbs overweight, lost it, and has kept it off. So I'll admit my perception may be skewed there. Anyway, why did we as a society get that way and what can we do about it? Throwing up our hands and accepting it as the new normal isn't the answer. That's all I'm getting at.

 

It's a fair question, Barb.  There is still a lot of discussion about high fructose corn syrup in so many products and that is messing with metabolism.  There is discussion about excessive use of antibiotics and killing off needed things in your GI tract. We drive cars everywhere.

 

I don't think anyone is throwing there hands up and saying it's the new normal. I think there are actually a couple of different conversations going on here. 

 

If I go to any good art museum and see nude European models across a span of about 400 years, there are very few that look like a Twiggy.  They look like "real women," not perfect, not thin to the point of looking like an adolescence.

 

Thanks to media, we now think the ideal woman is 5'4'' with enormous boobs, with a ten inch waist and thighs smaller than their husband's forearm. If you are an American woman, HUGE boobs are a must.

 

The standards are incredibly distorted.  There is a genuine need to celebrate people as they are - less-than-perfect human beings.

 

If Tess is happy doing what she is doing, great.  As a heavy woman, I have no intention of running out and stuffing my face full of Cokes, Doritos, and Twinkies so that I can look like her. But I don't really think that is the point.  For me, the point is how about a little more reality in portraying women in the media.  The itty, bitty thing probably doesn't have a chest that size, so stop airbrushing it in. Stop buffing, spraying, and for God's sake, erasing real parts of real people. Show me clothes on the size 12 model, not the size -1. Show me women over 40 with crow's feet. Stop making men (and women) expect the fantasy that doesn't exist.

 

In the meantime, let's talk about the health crisis in the US and not just put it down to "contagious laziness and sloth."

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Models model products - mostly clothing but also make-up, perfume and even cars.  People of all shapes, sizes, genders and races use those products.  So why shouldn't models reflect that?  This particular model seems to want to do more high fashion modeling from her aspirations to be on Vogue.  Why not?  Plus size models should not only be in ads for diabetes medication and Weight Watchers.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

And P.S. - it actually is normal for there to be people of various shapes and sizes.  And it's not just a recent phenomena.  Acknowledging that isn't going to change that for good or for bad.  

[Laura Corin]

It's a fair question, Barb.  There is still a lot of discussion about high fructose corn syrup in so many products and that is messing with metabolism.  

 

I don't buy this one.  The UK is heading quickly into obesity and we have very little HFCS: we don't have the land or climate to grow much sweetcorn, nor is its production subsidised.  Most UK sugar is beet or (imported) cane.  HFCS consumption in the US is 65 times that in the UK, according to Diabetes UK.

[fairfarmhand]

I kind of look at it like this:

 

Women of all shapes and sizes want to be pretty. Even if they don't care about their weight or if they are trying to get healthy. Shouldn't they have a role model saying "Yes, you can be pretty, even when you are heavy." I mean, how many of us put on 15, 20, 30 pounds and feel so unattractive that we go "It's going to take forever to lose this weight, so bring on the Twinkies."  If we could go, "Yeah, I'm a work in progress. I look good with this weight, I'm going to keep trying and look better when I lose it." how is that a bad thing? Perhaps its just me. I know when I

m heaver than I want to be I am more inclined to think I'm hideous, so why try?

 

We don't know anybody's story and judging a model because she's too thin or too heavy is seeing only part of the story.

 

Having a heavy gal having her picture made and looking pretty...I just don't see that as embracing obesity as a good thing. When women have over 100 pounds to lose, deep inside they know that it's not healthy.  Saying "Hey, you look pretty in that dress." or "That color really makes your eyes pop!" isn't patting them on the back and saying "Here have some fudge." It's just saying "You are a lovely woman." No more than if I tell my overweight friend that she's beautiful.

[Carrie12345]

The problem isn't endorsing/encouraging acceptance of obesity.

The problem is that we are SO ENTIRELY CONDITIONED to see "model" and think "everyone wants to look like that" that we can actually sit here and have a 3 page thread about how this is a poor example to follow without remembering that 99.9% (I'm making that stat up) of women resent the idea that they should look like models.

 

Thin as a toothpick or big as a house, the problem isn't the models.

[lollie010]

Katie, I cried, too. And then I put her on ignore because people who hate women are no friends of mine.

 

Do the same, and then stay out here in the real world where women of all shapes, sizes, and health challenges are beautiful. You know you are beautiful. I'm beautiful, too. It's BETTER out here.

 

I wasn't overweight in the slightest until about 10 years ago when long-term steroids changed me forever (lupus). I was never called fat or shamed as a child, teen, or young woman and it's a real good thing because I couldn't have handled it. Life was hard enough while still being visually acceptable to the horse's patoots of the world. As a grown woman, who has birthed babies and watched friends also go through normal, that's NORMAL, weight fluctuations through childbearing and menopausal years, now I can KNOW that women are beautiful. It's a good thing to know, and so much better than the idiotic idealism I had as a young person who had never been overweight. I'm smarter and wiser now, which is beautiful.

 

You are wise and smart and beautiful. You are a woman. Truth is truth, Katie, and anyone can see that you are gorgeous.

I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet. But, here is the point where I start crying. My sweet, amazing, dancing, tumbling, beautiful, soccer playing, 9 year old is heading to a pediatric rheumatologist because she screened positive for lupus and has other significant symptoms. I love her so much and know that she has so many challenges ahead of her. 😢

[ktgrok]

I understand that - haunts from childhood. I have them, too. I should not have used lard; I see it now. The word doesn't have weight to me. (Hey look! A pun!) I was teased for being thin. Two boys made up a rhyme, as boys are wont to do, since my last name rhymed nicely with bench. Hey, Benchie! Such a cuter nickname than Frenchie, right? I was relentlessly harassed for my uncool Goodwill clothes. And my cheap haircut. And my self-inflicted hair cuts. I was Dan-Smell. And on and on and on.

 

And what they did was wrong. What you did was wrong as well. You have now admitted you shouldn't have used the word, the next step is a heart felt apology. (hint, if you don't use the word "sorry" it's probably not an apology.)

 

You didn't just use the word lard. You called a human being disgusting and gross. You implied or said that no one should show off that much fat. Those of us that have that much fat, despite desperately trying to lose it, took that to mean other people would find us disgusting and gross. Maybe even our husbands, who certainly do see us in our underwear, and less. You then said that you find parts of yourself and your husband unattractive as well (although you didn't use gross or disgusting for you or your husband) as if that makes it ok. You implied you have to ignore certain parts of his body in order to be intimate with him, focusing instead on his shoulders. 

 

If you can't see how wrong that is, or at least see how hurtful it is, I don't know what to say.

[ktgrok]

 I mean, no..i'm not saying I would like it necessarily, if someone, let's say, put up a post that said, "OMG, look at this blog photo from one of our own posters! Sitting on the beach in this small green bikini! What a whore! What a horrible influence on young ladies!" I'm not saying I would really *enjoy* that. I'm saying after I snorted and said, "What the heck is your problem?" It just wouldn't matter.

 

 

 

Aside from if you would care or not, it still would be mean of them to say it. Especially if they said it in mixed company, in front of a bunch of other women sitting around in bikinis on a beach. It would be rude, and mean. And exactly what you did in this thread. 

[Lolly]

Agreed. I have a feeling there will be women right here, at the WTM, crying tonight. Because they are disgusting according to you. Thanks a lot. So glad to know I'm gross. Maybe I should cover up in front of my poor husband too, so he doesn't have to see my disgusting, gross lard. 

 

Shame on you. SHAME ON YOU. I've always liked you, but right now, I'm so angry I think I might vomit. Your words are what is disgusting here. And your atittude. That woman is made in the image of God just like the rest of us. 

 

I'd chop off my right arm if it would make me stop gaining weight. I KNOW I'm fat. I've been dieting since I hit puberty. Was in weight watchers before I was driving. Have done a decade as a vegetarian, a few years as a vegan, done atkins, low carb, high fat, low fat, high fiber, you name it, I've done it. Run daily, worked out, lifted weights, done yoga, taken pills. I'm fatter than ever, and what I do not need is a freaking bully on the well trained mind telling me that people that look like me have disgusting, gross bodies. So again, shame on you.

 

FYI, if that is you in your avatar, you are absolutely gorgeous. I have always thought so. (Little avatar envy going on here.)

 

I'm pretty sure there are some pictures of my DD in a bikini on FB, so, no, I don't care if she wears a bikini IRL or on the web. A thong and bra, I would not want because they are underwear. You know - under. In terms of material coverage they might be fairly comparable, but one is for private wearing and the other is not. That is the difference.

 

Irrelevant sidebar: I'm not a big fan of lingerie business/modeling/advertisement in any case. It wouldn't be my dream for my kid and I really wish it would just go away.

 

Another irrelevant sidebar: I photoshopped the beach picture a little bit.

 

Actually, think about it for a moment, there IS no difference in a bikini and underwear. It doesn't really matter that one is meant for private wearing. The amount showing is the only thing that differentiates. Well, I could go into posing,there is that, but I tend to see more "slutty" posing in bikinis than in undie ads. You were discussing amount of skin and fat showing. No difference. Plus, I tend to see more skin in bikini tops than most bras show, so.... (ANd, no I did not search the model in question to find more pictures. It is not at all relevant to the question. Me, I don't really like lingerie ads myself. They don't seem to come up a whole lot in my life either. Well, except dd's VS catalogues, and those are only sent to my house because dd (okay and myself) purchase things from their store. I am still very glad that larger women are starting to model. Even though I do kinda wish ALL models would be kept a little more covered up. Truly, that is a whole 'nother issue that is completely irrelevant to the one that was being discussed.

[shawthorne44]

I should have trimmed it, but I couldn't, because it is all excellent. We are not glorifying obesity by letting obese women see what the clothes look like before buying them. Not seeing an obese model isn't going to make me less obese, it just makes me end up wearing yoga pants 24/7 becaues I've given up trying to buy anything else. 

...

 

 

That is so incredibly true.  I didn't realize it until I had a daughter, and then I was "Where did this clothes horse in me come from?"   But, she looks cute in clothes and I don't.   So, my 4-year-old has more shoes then I do.  

 

If I thought I could look cute in clothes, you better darn believe I'd run to any store I thought had cute clothes.  I've paid more than I'd like to when I've found a store that has clothes that make me look passable.  I've also gone to a mall with money burning a hole in my pocket, and walked out with nothing saying "They don't want my money".