Grain-free dog food

[wonderchica]

Have you noticed any differences in your dog after going grain-free? My Maltese-poodle mix gets "goopy" eyes and tear staining. Her groomer recommended switching to a grain-free so we're trying out some samples of Taste of The Wild.

[Guest]

I did this with my cats. I can't say they are any healthier. I do buy TotW feline, but mostly, I think it's a fad.

[Joker]

Our dogs eat a grain free and poultry free food due to the allergies of one dog. They have zero issues with it. The brand is Castor & Pollux Organix. It's reduced the itching significantly in our allergic dog.

[Pawz4me]

I agree with Quill -- it's a fad/marketing gimmick except for the relatively few pets who have an allergy or sensitivity to a grain. Note I didn't say grains there.  Many people seem to think a pet can have an allergy or sensitivity to ALL grains.  I haven't found that to be true.  Even my dog who has a well documented wheat allergy tolerates other grains just fine.

[Lady Florida.]

Our dog has been on grain free food for years due to an allergy. I actually notice a difference between various grain free brands. Of the ones we've tried most recently, Publix Premium grain free, and Nutro Natural Choice, the Publix brand makes him very, very gassy. He's an older dog and is gassy anyway, but that food makes it so much worse.

[Nan in Mass]

We use grain-free.  The cat was a shelter cat and wants to eat way more than is good for her.  She eats plastic and cardboard and paper if she is hungry and I don't feed her.  I tried all sorts of things before I tried buying the highest protien food I could find.  It was also the most expensive.  Ug.  However, it allowed me, with careful measuring, to feed her just enough to let her lose weight without being utterly miserable.  Since it was helping the cat, I decided to try it on the dog as well.  She's not overweight but has a false hip joint and needs to stay thin to be comfortable.  We discovered that her bad breath cleared right up.  So - we are now happily buying the expensive food and being grateful that we can afford to do it.  It did not cure the brown tear streaks on the dog.  We use Merit (not sure about the spelling).

 

Nan

[Ellie]

Have you noticed any differences in your dog after going grain-free? My Maltese-poodle mix gets "goopy" eyes and tear staining. Her groomer recommended switching to a grain-free so we're trying out some samples of Taste of The Wild.

 

We use Evo, Naturapet's grain-free Innova. We've been using both canine and feline for close to 20 years. Every pet that has come to us has shown marked improvement in coat quality after a few months on either Innova or Evo, including the ones who were fed other brands of premium foods.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I have an 18 year old cat and I fed her Taste of the wild grain-free with a capsule of fish oil everyday. She does not overeat and seems really healthy. When she ate another brand she would throw up a lot more often.

 

It seems expensive, but she eats just under the recommended amount, so a bag lasts a long time.

 

I'm not sure whethe the Grain-free idea is a fad or not, I just know the humans in our house seem better off when we limit them.

[Jilly]

I feed my dog a grain-free dog food. He had terrible allergies before going grain-free. He is doing much better now, so for us it was worth the change. 

[mamaraby]

When our Golden Retreiver was on a grain free food, he had the worst gas and would stink us out of the room. Once we switched him to plain old Iams (large breed in the green bag), we found that could all live in the house together again. so, Iams it is!

 

I haven't really noticed a huge difference with my cats either, but they happen to eat a grain free food because it's the only food that cuts down on the one cat's regurgitating. The grain free part is incidental, I think because I've tried a number of other grain free foods with him and not had the same result.

 

Count me among those not convinced that grain free is anything other than a gimmick for the vast majority of dogs.

[hornblower]

For cats it's imperative. Actually for cats I think it's important to feed as little dry food as possible & to keep them on canned...
 

For dogs, it's less of an issue. I think dogs are much more omnivorous than carnivorous & their scavenging history has prepared them to tolerate a wide range of foods. 

That said, I have seen tear staining clear up with going on raw or grain free so for some it is a trigger.

fwiw, I have 2 on raw, 1 on a kibble. His kibble is not grain free - he's an old guy with a variety of health probs and he's on Acana Light & Fit which has oats... 

Mine don't react to grains & love them. Pieces of bagel or tortilla or toast are rotated through my training treats on a regular basis.

One of mine has seasonal allergies and gets staining between toes etc but it's from mold or spores outside.
 

& more fwiw, TotW is made by Diamond Foods  which has been in a number of recalls. I'm more partial to Acana, Orijen & Go! 
 

[wonderchica]

Thanks all! She's currently on Science Diet but has been less than interested in it lately, so I was thinking about trying something else anyway. The TOTW is only $2 more per bag and she doesn't eat a lot, I think we'll try it and see. We also got samples of Blue Wilderness and 1 other I can't remember the name of.

[Spy Car]

It is certainly and interesting (and controversial) topic.

 

There is some evidence, based on a recent (2013) study done in Sweden by Erik Axelsson et. al. that suggests dogs (through the evolutionary pressures of domestication) have acquired genetic traits that allow greater starch absorption than wolves (although some of these "advantages" are unevenly distributed). This would go along with common sense experience observing that dogs fed grain and other starchy carbohydrates don't die.

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html

 

Against this, we have an anatomy in dogs that is essentially unchanged from wolves. Their digestive tract is short, the classic carnivore type. The teeth are true to the the carnivorous type, with no flat molar of the type found in omnivores (like humans). 

 

The question, it seems to me, isn't can dogs survive eating grains and starches (clearly they can), but whether it is an optimal, natural, or healthful choice? 

 

I'm less than a year into feeding a dog (from puppyhood) on a raw diet of carefully balanced (by me) diverse portions of meat, bones, organs, connective tissue, eggs, and fish. I realize my experience is only "anecdotal," but  what I'm seeing is a dog that is positively gleaming with heath. I'm not alone in noticing. I get comment all the time about how shiny he is, how soft his coat feels, how spectacularly white his teeth are, and how muscularly lean he is. I hope a raw diet would be a good choice, my expectations have been surpassed.

 

When I observe kibble fed dogs their tummies usually look a little bloated (there are exceptions). The sugar in the starches attacks teeth, and tartar build up is generally quite bad. And obesity is a big problem. Dogs seem to pull calories (but not a lot of other nutrients) from carbohydrate heavy meals, and seem to overeat as a way to compensate for nutritional inadequacy.

 

Not to be gross, but when one looks at the stools of kibble fed dogs they are generally massive stinky poops. You can see how much waste there is, with cheap heavier-grain formulas directly producing the most waste. The output of raw fed dogs is compact. One can see (and smell the difference) easily. A raw fed stool left on the ground turns white in a day or two and then disintegrates.

 

My inner intelligence is telling me that natural diet that mimics (as much as possible) the ancestral canine diet is healthier for dogs than the modern processed food than is now commonplace. 

 

One must be aware than various "grain-free" formulas generally replace grains (which have almost no nutrients beyond calories/sugar) with other carbohydrates (which may at least offer slight amount of other nutrients). But for bio-available nutrition nothing tops meat-bones-organs, etc.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ellie]

When our Golden Retreiver was on a grain free food, he had the worst gas and would stink us out of the room. Once we switched him to plain old Iams (large breed in the green bag), we found that could all live in the house together again. so, Iams it is!

 

I haven't really noticed a huge difference with my cats either, but they happen to eat a grain free food because it's the only food that cuts down on the one cat's regurgitating. The grain free part is incidental, I think because I've tried a number of other grain free foods with him and not had the same result.

 

Count me among those not convinced that grain free is anything other than a gimmick for the vast majority of dogs.

 

We never noticed that with any of our animals. :-)

 

We had been using Innova for many years and had noticed improvements in coat and general health when new pets came into our home. We changed to Evo because one of our kitties was a little tubby and the vet was concerned that she might develop diabetes. I figured that if low-carb was good for some people, it might be good for kitties, as well. :-) So I bought little bowls for each kitty (three of them) and wrote their names on the bowls, then put the amount of Evo in each bowl that was recommended, and fed only that much each day (talk about herding cats....making sure that each cat ate only out of his or her bowl!). Turned out that the kitties were definitely not overeating, but tubby kitty still lost a little weight such that the vet was happy. Yes, the grain-free part was incidental, as I was going for higher protein. We have continued Evo with subsequent pets.

[Lady Florida.]

Count me among those not convinced that grain free is anything other than a gimmick for the vast majority of dogs.

 

I think it's a fad for both humans and animals, and to take it further I think the fad hurts those who legitimately need to be grain free for medical reasons. So, I was the last one to think putting a dog of mine on a grain free diet would make any difference. I mostly went along with it just to be able to say I told you so.

 

He had allergies. He was losing hair. The vet said we could test him, but it's way more expensive to allergy test dogs who don't have insurance than it is to test humans who do. (I realize not all humans have health insurance, but we do and it would have been very very expensive to do allergy tests on our dog). We tried so many things, including special shampoo, topical sprays and ointments, and cortisone shots and steriod medication. Neither of the latter was something we wanted to be a regular thing for the poor dog. Our vet suggested we try grain free food and see what happens. If it didn't clear up, then we'd look into it further. I thought, "Yeah, right. Wheat free, grain free, blah blah blah." I was shocked. It worked. The almost 10 yo dog has been grain free for about 6 years now and has never had a recurrence. 

 

Would I put an animal on grain free food if it wasn't recommended or if it made no difference? No, I wouldn't. Our cat eats both canned and dry food, and I'm pretty sure there's some wheat, corn, or possibly both in her dry food. We just make sure the dog can't it (he does love a good cat food snack when he can get one.  ;) )

[Carrie12345]

We switched to TOTW. I absolutely noticed less free dander, shinier coat, and way less poop to scoop!

[StephanieZ]

FWIW, cats are carnivores, so it makes some sense for cats to be grain-free. But, dogs are omnivores, like people, so they are evolved to eat a wide variety of foods. 

 

Also, to the best of my knowledge, Taste of the Wild is manufactured by Diamond Foods -- a company implicated in a number of recent-years recalls and problems. They do not submit their foods for the more stringent nutrient analyses that are done by the most reputable food manufacturers. 

 

Natural Balance is a very reputable "alternative" food for dogs and cats. Personally, for our pets, we stick with Royal Canin, Hills, or Natural Balance. 

[Katy]

My yorkie needed taste of the wild for quite a while or he scratched like crazy.  Recently we got another dog that had been on Beneful weight-loss formula, and he preferred that and it's cheaper so we let him eat it too.  It's been a few weeks and he hasn't been scratching at all, so I think it's a win.

[Spy Car]

Dogs are not omnivores. People are omnivores. We have molars to grind plants, enzymes to dissolve plant cells, and long digestive tracts to draw nutrients out of plant-based foods. Dogs do not.

 

Dogs may not be "obligate carnivores" the way cats are, but they are basically carnivores with a limited ability to scavenge and survive off non-animal food sources.

 

"Survive" does not equal thrive.

 

Nothing in the canine anatomy or dentition points to them being "omnivores."

 

Bill

[Hen]

we use grain free, my labradoodle (3/4 standard poodle)is allergic to rice. She gets itchy and has the runs if she has rice.  :(  I would love to go raw with her, but I don't think we could afford it, to do it in an organic way.  I keep thinking about it, though.

 

we use mostly Natural Balance. 

[texasmama]

Our dog is on grain free kibble supplemented with whatever fresh people food I have and a bit of canned, non grain free food. I buy her 4health kibble from the Tractor supply. It is not expensive and gets good marks (forget the name of the site which evaluates pet foods).

 

Our special needs eight year old cat with an autoimmune disorder is on Wellness canned grain free food with a bit of tuna to make it appealing. She eats only canned, as she has very few teeth, but canned is best for cats anyway due to the water content.

[Lizzie in Ma]

We've fed our pets Taste of the Wild for many years.  Our pets have lived long and healthy lives.

[Night Elf]

I don't know how reputable this site may be, but Dog Food Advisor has reviews of various dog foods.

[The Girls' Mom]

Our dog has been on grain free food for several years.  She breaks out in a rash and tries to chew her feet off if she eats wheat or corn.  She doesn't when she eats grain free.  

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Our labradoodle is grain and poultry free due to sensitivities.  He used to scratch himself til he bled when we were feeding him foods with grains.  We took him off and he only gets itchy during "allergy" season - meaning when I am sneezing, he is itchy - mostly around the face.  After several bouts with runny stools, we took him off chicken and found that his output was much less gross.  We were successful on Evo Red Meat, but after several recalls where the food was unavailable, we had to switch.  Do you know how hard it is to find a higher protein no-grain, no-poultry food.  We had him on Wellness Core Ocean, but the fish-based diet caused his urine Ph to be too high and he kept getting UTIs.  So we have him on TOTW  Sierra Mountain (lamb) formula.  He had been doing well on that for a while, but he seems to be having more loose stools lately - not sure if it is his obsession with other dogs' frozen poop or a problem with the food. 

[Ellie]

Our labradoodle is grain and poultry free due to sensitivities.  He used to scratch himself til he bled when we were feeding him foods with grains.  We took him off and he only gets itchy during "allergy" season - meaning when I am sneezing, he is itchy - mostly around the face.  After several bouts with runny stools, we took him off chicken and found that his output was much less gross.  We were successful on Evo Red Meat, but after several recalls where the food was unavailable, we had to switch.  Do you know how hard it is to find a higher protein no-grain, no-poultry food.  We had him on Wellness Core Ocean, but the fish-based diet caused his urine Ph to be too high and he kept getting UTIs.  So we have him on TOTW  Sierra Mountain (lamb) formula.  He had been doing well on that for a while, but he seems to be having more loose stools lately - not sure if it is his obsession with other dogs' frozen poop or a problem with the food. 

 

The manufacturer of Evo voluntarily recalled its own products. There were no reports of any animals being ill or anything; it was just that in doing its own testing, there were levels of...whatever--I have forgotten...that they were not happy with. So they recalled everything, retooled, and manufactured again. Evo/Innova is available again, and available at PetSmart (or PetCo...I get them confused).

[Mom-ninja.]

For cats it's imperative. Actually for cats I think it's important to feed as little dry food as possible & to keep them on canned...

 

 

Oh, tell me more about dry vs wet food. 

 

 

 

It is certainly and interesting (and controversial) topic.

 

 

The question, it seems to me, isn't can dogs survive eating grains and starches (clearly they can), but whether it is an optimal, natural, or healthful choice? 

 

You forgot practical/affordable. 

 

I just want to point out that it is NOT necessary to feed a dog grain free or raw in order to have a happy dog. Even if a dog has allergies, you do your best and what you can afford. A dog would MUCH rather live in a home being fed regular dog food than you know....die on the streets or be put to sleep in a pound. 

 

My dog has allergies that I'm trying to figure out. So I think I will try him on grain free food. He's already on gluten free food (for other reasons) but I'll see how he does on grain free. Vet says it's most likely seasonal allergies and to give him benedryl each day. That too can get pricey quickly. I do the best I can, but he's a happy dog and loves life. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

The manufacturer of Evo voluntarily recalled its own products. There were no reports of any animals being ill or anything; it was just that in doing its own testing, there were levels of...whatever--I have forgotten...that they were not happy with. So they recalled everything, retooled, and manufactured again. Evo/Innova is available again, and available at PetSmart (or PetCo...I get them confused).

True.  They were voluntary recalls.  But the food was unavailable for the better part of a year in my neck of the woods.  So, I had to feed this dog something, which is why I looked for a brand that was more stable.  I had heard that Evo/Innova was bought by someone who was messing with the formula, so I didn't see a reason to go back once I found a substitute.  We are still having supply problems with Evo Red Meat specifically around here.  I can't use it if it is not consistently available. 

[Ellie]

True.  They were voluntary recalls.  But the food was unavailable for the better part of a year in my neck of the woods.  So, I had to feed this dog something, which is why I looked for a brand that was more stable.  I had heard that Evo/Innova was bought by someone who was messing with the formula, so I didn't see a reason to go back once I found a substitute.  We are still having supply problems with Evo Red Meat specifically around here.  I can't use it if it is not consistently available. 

 

We had to do the same thing, but when we found it available once more, we tried it, and were just as satisfied with the "new" product as with the former. The new owner didn't mess with the formula; I'm thinking that was a rumor started by a competitor...

 

But yeah, if it isn't available consistently where you are, you have to find something else that is. :-)

[Pawz4me]

The manufacturer of Evo voluntarily recalled its own products. There were no reports of any animals being ill or anything; it was just that in doing its own testing, there were levels of...whatever--I have forgotten...that they were not happy with. So they recalled everything, retooled, and manufactured again. Evo/Innova is available again, and available at PetSmart (or PetCo...I get them confused).

 

 

True.  They were voluntary recalls.  But the food was unavailable for the better part of a year in my neck of the woods.  So, I had to feed this dog something, which is why I looked for a brand that was more stable.  I had heard that Evo/Innova was bought by someone who was messing with the formula, so I didn't see a reason to go back once I found a substitute.  We are still having supply problems with Evo Red Meat specifically around here.  I can't use it if it is not consistently available. 

 

 

Almost all pet food recalls are voluntary.  Until 2011 the FDA didn't even have the authority to issue mandatory recalls of pet food.  The Food Safety Modernization Act was signed into law in early January 2011 and for the first time gave the FDA authority to issue mandatory pet food recalls.  But the FSMA requires the FDA to give manufacturers the opportunity to recall products voluntarily before issuing a mandatory recall, and the FDA has stated that it will reserve its power to issue mandatory recalls for "rare instances."

 

I wouldn't be giving any company kudos for issuing a voluntary recall.  They're usually doing it under threat of a mandatory recall by the FDA, not out of the goodness of their hearts.

[KungFuPanda]

Costco has a couple grain free options that are very affordable.  

[Katy]

Dogs are not omnivores. People are omnivores. We have molars to grind plants, enzymes to dissolve plant cells, and long digestive tracts to draw nutrients out of plant-based foods. Dogs do not.

 

Dogs may not be "obligate carnivores" the way cats are, but they are basically carnivores with a limited ability to scavenge and survive off non-animal food sources.

 

"Survive" does not equal thrive.

 

Nothing in the canine anatomy or dentition points to them being "omnivores."

 

Bill

 

 

Really?  One of my favorite dog training books, Smarter Than You Think, states that while wild dogs and wolves don't eat grain specifically, they do eat their prey's stomach first, so that amounts to something like 20-30 percent of their diet being grains, 20-30 percent being vegetables, and the rest meat.   The author, Paul Loeb, typically recommends homemade food of rice, veggies, and meat instead of kibble.  While I don't typically do that (out of laziness), I have had dogs in the past with very sensitive digestive issues where a vet recommended exactly that mix.  I never thought to question that information or advice.

[Ellie]

Almost all pet food recalls are voluntary.  Until 2011 the FDA didn't even have the authority to issue mandatory recalls of pet food.  The Food Safety Modernization Act was signed into law in early January 2011 and for the first time gave the FDA authority to issue mandatory pet food recalls.  But the FSMA requires the FDA to give manufacturers the opportunity to recall products voluntarily before issuing a mandatory recall, and the FDA has stated that it will reserve its power to issue mandatory recalls for "rare instances."

 

I wouldn't be giving any company kudos for issuing a voluntary recall.  They're usually doing it under threat of a mandatory recall by the FDA, not out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

There were no reports of any animals being ill because of Innova/Evo. The FDA wasn't involved at all, no threats of a mandatory recall. It was only that Naturapet saw some readings that it wasn't happy with, and recalled its products...out of the goodness of their hearts. :-)

[6packofun]

We switched our Bichon to Fromm and his itchy skin cleared up in a couple weeks!  He was really biting at himself and leaving these dorky bald spots.  Thank goodness that's gone.  LOL  What I like about Fromm is that the base ingredients are the same, only the protein changes for the different "flavors" and we give him more than one flavor each week without worrying it will upset his stomach.  

 

They also have a frequent buyer thing...I think it's 15 proofs of purchase and then a free one or something like that.  Haven't reached it yet.  lol  I'm sure there are many, many good options out there, we just happened to end up with Fromm on the recommendation of our local pet food specialty store.  :)  Merrick, Zignature, Natural Balance, and the 4 Health brand from Tractor Supply were all options we considered.  We tried Blue and he hated it.  lol

[Pawz4me]

There were no reports of any animals being ill because of Innova/Evo. The FDA wasn't involved at all, no threats of a mandatory recall. It was only that Naturapet saw some readings that it wasn't happy with, and recalled its products...out of the goodness of their hearts. :-)

 

You believe that if it makes you feel good.

 

IMO it probably would have been true before Natura was purchased by P&G.  Since then?  Absolutely no way.  P&G's very long history in the pet food industry tells me it just ain't so.

[hornblower]

You believe that if it makes you feel good.

 

IMO it probably would have been true before Natura was purchased by P&G.  Since then?  Absolutely no way.  P&G's very long history in the pet food industry tells me it just ain't so.

 

:iagree:

 

[hornblower]

Oh, tell me more about dry vs wet food. 

 

 

 

For cats, there are significant health risks to being on kibble. They just tend to not drink as much as they need to & many many vets & cat fanciers find the animals do better on wet.

 

I'll cut & paste symptoms from one site & let you read up....

 

http://www.catinfo.org/

 

Also, Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins book Your Cat is a good resource. http://www.amazon.com/Your-Cat-Simple-Secrets-Stronger/dp/0312358024/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425406211&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=elizabeth+hodkgins

 

She's a cat diabetes researcher & runs a website http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/index.htmlfor that disease specifically. Many cats can be reversed out of diabetes with good diet.

 

Cats are prone to so many problems with kidneys, uti, obesity & diabetes - and all of these can be improved or frequently outright prevented by keeping them on an all wet diet.

 

 

Common medical problems associated with dry food

• Diabetes

• Kidney disease

• Cystitis/Urethral blockage/Urinary tract infection/Crystals

• Inflammatory Bowel Disease

• Hairballs

• Obesity

• Hepatic Lipidosis (fatty liver disease)

• Dental health

• Asthma

   

[hornblower]

 He had been doing well on that for a while, but he seems to be having more loose stools lately - not sure if it is his obsession with other dogs' frozen poop or a problem with the food. 

 

Have you tried using a bit of canned pumpkin? (plain, no sugar added) That is my first line of offense with poop problems. Interestingly it can work on both - runny & constipated...

 

For single protein foods, I'd again recommend Acana or Go! 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Great idea about the pumpkin!  I'd forgotten about that.  We have been giving a little coconut oil in the food, which seems to help a little. 

[wonderchica]

Lots of interesting replies! I've been mixing in some of the TOTW and she's currently tossing out the old kibble to get to the TOTW pieces so I'll think I'll pick up a bag of that and see how she does. She doesn't seem particularly itchy to me, but she definitely has runny eyes.

[Spy Car]

Really?  One of my favorite dog training books, Smarter Than You Think, states that while wild dogs and wolves don't eat grain specifically, they do eat their prey's stomach first, so that amounts to something like 20-30 percent of their diet being grains, 20-30 percent being vegetables, and the rest meat.   The author, Paul Loeb, typically recommends homemade food of rice, veggies, and meat instead of kibble.  While I don't typically do that (out of laziness), I have had dogs in the past with very sensitive digestive issues where a vet recommended exactly that mix.  I never thought to question that information or advice.

 

The author of the training books is wrong, wolves do not eat the stomach contents of large prey. This falsehood has been de-bunked by the leading expert in the field of wolf behavior. Wolves actually shake out the contents of the stomach prior to eating it (except in the case of very small prey). This disinformation has been counterproductive to canine health.

 

Grains are an unnatural part of a canine diet. Feeding a dog 60% plant based food is a manifestly unhealthful prescription. Paul Loeb is highly misinformed. I don't know a kinder way to put it.

 

Bill

[Katy]

The author of the training books is wrong, wolves do not eat the stomach contents of large prey. This falsehood has been de-bunked by the leading expert in the field of wolf behavior. Wolves actually shake out the contents of the stomach prior to eating it (except in the case of very small prey). This disinformation has been counterproductive to canine health.

 

Grains are an unnatural part of a canine diet. Feeding a dog 60% plant based food is a manifestly unhealthful prescription. Paul Loeb is highly misinformed. I don't know a kinder way to put it.

 

Bill

 

Interesting.

[Pawz4me]

The author of the training books is wrong, wolves do not eat the stomach contents of large prey. This falsehood has been de-bunked by the leading expert in the field of wolf behavior. Wolves actually shake out the contents of the stomach prior to eating it (except in the case of very small prey). This disinformation has been counterproductive to canine health.

 

Grains are an unnatural part of a canine diet. Feeding a dog 60% plant based food is a manifestly unhealthful prescription. Paul Loeb is highly misinformed. I don't know a kinder way to put it.

 

Bill

 

Modern wolves aren't the direct ancestors of dogs.  They do, however, likely share a common ancestor.  But given the fact that wolves aren't dogs' direct ancestors, I'm not at all convinced that any of the studies done on modern wolves have a tremendous relevance to dogs.

 

And this study found that dogs evolved to not just survive but to thrive on a diet rich in starch.

 

 

 

The domestication of dogs was an important episode in the development of human civilization. The precise timing and location of this event is debated1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and little is known about the genetic changes that accompanied the transformation of ancient wolves into domestic dogs. Here we conduct whole-genome resequencing of dogs and wolves to identify 3.8 million genetic variants used to identify 36 genomic regions that probably represent targets for selection during dog domestication. Nineteen of these regions contain genes important in brain function, eight of which belong to nervous system development pathways and potentially underlie behavioural changes central to dog domestication6. Ten genes with key roles in starch digestion and fat metabolism also show signals of selection. We identify candidate mutations in key genes and provide functional support for an increased starch digestion in dogs relative to wolves. Our results indicate that novel adaptations allowing the early ancestors of modern dogs to thrive on a diet rich in starch, relative to the carnivorous diet of wolves, constituted a crucial step in the early domestication of dogs.

[Spy Car]

Modern wolves aren't the direct ancestors of dogs.  They do, however, likely share a common ancestor.  But given the fact that wolves aren't dogs' direct ancestors, I'm not at all convinced that any of the studies done on modern wolves have a tremendous relevance to dogs.

 

And this study found that dogs evolved to not just survive but to thrive on a diet rich in starch.

 

The first contention, that modern wolves are not the direct ancestors of dogs, is unproven conjecture. If it is true, it would still mean that dogs descended from a slightly different sub-species of wolf since modern wolves and modern dogs are part of THE SAME SPECIES. Both are members of the species Canis lupus. Wolves and dogs and freely interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Same species. Are there some divergences? Yes. But the underlying anatomy is the same.

 

The second study, which I also linked to, shows some of those (very slight) divergences. Among them are a greater tolerance to starch in dogs than in wolves. It is not surprising that evolutionary forces, and in this case both natural selection and artificial selection (by human hands) has lead to dogs with a greater tolerance to species inappropriate foods (like grains and other carbohydrates, that ARE NOT part of a natural canine diet, but are what canines undergoing domestication were often able to scavange from humans) gained an evolutionary advantage. That is reasonable.

 

But the study's conclusion that dogs "thrive" on starches has been refuted. For example, the study makes a large issue that dogs carry more genes to produce "Amylase" (an enzyme needed to convert starch to sugars). But unlike omnivores such as we humans, who carry Amylase in our saliva which begins the digestion process as we chew, dogs have no salivary Amylase. It is not until starches hit the pancreas that starchy food encounters Amylase. Starting digestion in the pancreas put a huge strain on that organ. It is not good for dogs. They "can do it" (sort of, as a lot of plant materials pass unprocessed) but it is NOT a diet canines "thrive" on.

 

The short digestive tracts of dogs is virtually unchanged  from that of wolves. It is the short digestive tract of a carnivore. It is a digestive tract optimized to eat meat, organs, and bone. Not starch. Not plants.

 

Dogs have teeth like wolves. They are not the teeth of omnivores. Bears are omnivores.Bears have flat molars which allow them to grind plant food. Dogs do not have flat morals. Omnivore have jaws that can move side to side. This allows (flat) teeth to grind plant foods. Dogs, like other canines, can not move their jaws from side to side. So they can not "chew" plant food in a fashion that makes it bioavailable. Give a dog a carrot and pieces of carrot come out the other end.

 

Gaining increased tolerance for "survival" from eating a food that is not species appropriate is an offshoot of evolutionary pressures. But that is a far cry from starch being an optimal food for dogs. That leap is unsubstantiated and wrong-headed.

 

Starch is junk-food for dogs. Many brands of dog food are more than 50% carbohydrate. That is a scandal. Dogs suffer for it with obesity, cancers, and being old before their time. In a nation where people think nothing about feeding children crap it is no surprise that dogs are treated no better. But let's not kid ourselves that high starch diets are good for dogs. 

 

Bill

[hornblower]

Bill,

 

did you get a chance to watch the 2013 SPARCS conference?

Adam Mikloski, Ray Coppinger & Clive Wynn all talked a lot about genetics at that one.  http://caninescience.info/protected/

Just fyi for anyone really interested in dog nerd stuff :D

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

did you get a chance to watch the 2013 SPARCS conference?

 

Adam Mikloski, Ray Coppinger & Clive Wynn all talked a lot about genetics at that one.  http://caninescience.info/protected/

 

Just fyi for anyone really interested in dog nerd stuff :D

 

Looks like interesting topics, but it appears the videos are limited to members only.

 

Bill

[hornblower]

Looks like interesting topics, but it appears the videos are limited to members only.

 

Bill

 

yes, it's free & open to public as a livestream but the recordings are only for members. Well worth it. I plan to be glued to computer Jun 19-21 :)

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

did you get a chance to watch the 2013 SPARCS conference?

 

Adam Mikloski, Ray Coppinger & Clive Wynn all talked a lot about genetics at that one.  http://caninescience.info/protected/

 

Just fyi for anyone really interested in dog nerd stuff :D

 

I was curious to see what one presenter, Dr. Michael W. Fox, had to say about canine nutrition. I could not watch the video but found this on his website:

 

http://www.drfoxvet.com/library/special-reports/pet-food-and-feeding/manufactured-pet-foods-home-made-diets-tying-up-some-loose-ends

 

Obesity, metabolic syndrome, diabetes mellitus, cancer, fatty liver disease, pancreatitis, hypertension, heart and kidney disease and diet-related arthritis, irritable bowel syndrome, allergies and neurological and immune system dysfunctions are modern day health issues that people and companion animals share when their diets consist of highly processed agribusiness food industry products, byproducts and various additives...

 

...extraordinary parallels in our pets' health problems [are] associated with highly processed, manufactured pet foods, and the health problems in humans consuming various processed, convenience and junk foods, snacks and beverages...

 

High glycemic ingredients in pet foods [carbohydrates] need to be eliminated such as corn, pasta and white rice. Beet pulp in pet foods may also be high in sugar....

 

 

Corn and wheat are associated with cystitis in cats (primarily associated with the feeding of a plant based protein source), and seizures in dogs. Corn, soy gluten and wheat can cause irritable bowel syndrome and other digestive problems and dysbiosis (bacterial imbalance in the gut).

 

Fox also talks about the Omega 6 overload (and lack of Omega 3s) in the meat factory farmed animals. Again, the reason factory farmed meat no longer has a good Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratios (which a natural grass-fed diet provides) is that we humans are feeding grain (a species inappropriate food) to cattle.

 

When we species inappropriate food to animals we fook things up. We are doing that to dogs and cats in a big way. 

 

People have largely fallen for the marketing power of huge corporations and have come to accept the idea that an unnatural processed food diet that is species inappropriate is the best way to feed dogs.

 

Bill

[Pawz4me]

LOL, Bill.

 

Dr. Fox as a source for proving the need for low carb/grain free/"species appropriate" diet?  That's a good laugh to start my day!

 

Have you seen the home-made dog food recipe he so heavily recommends?  It's absolutely loaded with carbs!

 

I home cook, and frequently include some grain in my dogs' food (because they both do best on a diet that contains a little grain, especially my old guy), but Dr. Fox isn't a source I use, nor would he ever make my list of credible sources.  He falls all over himself with contradictions.

 

(And he's also way, way off on his calcium recommendation.  Which is of course a whole other issue, but goes to my point that he's not a reliable source.)

[Spy Car]

LOL, Bill.

 

Dr. Fox as a source for proving the need for low carb/grain free/"species appropriate" diet?  That's a good laugh to start my day!

 

Have you seen the home-made dog food recipe he so heavily recommends?  It's absolutely loaded with carbs!

 

I home cook, and frequently include some grain in my dogs' food (because they both do best on a diet that contains a little grain, especially my old guy), but Dr. Fox isn't a source I use, nor would he ever make my list of credible sources.  He falls all over himself with contradictions.

 

(And he's also way, way off on his calcium recommendation.  Which is of course a whole other issue, but goes to my point that he's not a reliable source.)

 

I agree that his home made recipes are very far away from what I'd consider an optimal diet for dogs. I'm not "endorsing" the man's views. I'd definitely reject the meal plan. I do not know enough about him to know if he is a "credible source" (or not), but after reading his meal recommendations I tend to think "not."

 

Bill