ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 And I am not saying the girl is a liar..I am just saying it does not all add up and there would need to be more information for it to be believable. Nonsense. While we may not know the "whole story" (whatever that means) this situation is believable and has happened before. While parents who refuse to get birth certificates are not the norm, they are out there and at one time time this was a frequent topic of conversation at mothering.com. Parents do this for a variety of reasons, with the most delusional doing so because they believe getting a birth certificate makes their child property of the "world bank" as collateral for loans the US obtained during the Great Depression. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The girl did a legal name change in November. How did she do that with no ID? How can you even do a legal name change if there was no legal name to begin with? I can't find info on this. Source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I agree that her going online in a parent-bashing video makes me question her judgment and everything else. There is nothing to be gained by doing that, other than smearing one's parent and making them even less likely to feel cooperative. If there is a birth certificate anywhere, the girl is able to go get a copy for a very small fee from the locality where she was born. If there isn't a birth certificate anywhere, there is no point in whining about the parents not giving her a copy. She needs to find out how to get a bc made now and go do it. For starters she could go to the local registrar and ask what the process is and get the blank documents and fill them out. Just do it. Then go get your social security card, which is very simple once you have a birth certificate. She has done this. A search turned up no evidence that one was ever filed. She found out how to get one, but either her parents or the midwife who was there has to sign the affidavit. According to the girl, she has contacted the parents and the midwife and neither will sign. And she has indeed gained from the online campaign. An attorney has agreed to represent her pro bono after hearing about her situation online. I assume that was her goal, since she has no way to pay for help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 We have friends who did not file birth certs for their children and it IS possible to get a delayed one. I know, as I've been involved in the process since their last two children were born in my house (I'm their landlady). It's not easy, but it can be done. The lady's sil did it for her 7 children. All 11 of those children went on to get SSNs, passports and go to college. Sorry Alecia, but I don't think you're trying very hard... smh No one is saying that getting a delayed birth certificate is impossible. However, to do so she has to meet certain requirements and what she needs will need to come from her family. Certain folks on the WTM never fail to disappoint. When in doubt, blame the teen instead of the nutjob parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 My understanding is that some states don't allow lay midwives so only certified nurse midwives would be under those guidelines. It's possible that the "midwife" wasn't trained in an official way. Filing the birth certificate might put her at risk for prosecution, which might explain her reluctance (as would her being good friends with the family or any number of things). While I don't know where she was born; the fmaily is now living in TX. Lay midwives do file the birth certs here, and they've been doing so since before this girl was born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Whatever the "whole truth" turns out to be, it appears that this is quite the wackadoodle family -- with criminal parents as well, if they have not paid their taxes in all those years. The father sounds like a world class weasel, even if you strip away the crazy family stuff and look only at his shifty and dishonest tax dealings -- and the mom is equally to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I can't find info on this. Source? Her FB page. And she would have to have a legal name to do a legal name change.... https://www.facebook.com/882732628415890/photos/a.883164955039324.1073741828.882732628415890/883164911705995/?type=1&theater Plus..while she took the time to post this letter she or the grandparents typed up, she did not bother to post the copy of the letter she claims she has from vital statistics stating there is no birth certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Whatever the "whole truth" turns out to be, it appears that this is quite the wackadoodle family -- with criminal parents as well, if they have not paid their taxes in all those years. The father sounds like a world class weasel, even if you strip away the crazy family stuff and look only at his shifty and dishonest tax dealings -- and the mom is equally to blame. I found no record of any criminal proceedings against the family. Do you have anything to show there are actual tax evasion records? I saw something where the dad has sued the IRS for copies of something. I did not read the whole thing though. But the dad is listed as the plaintiff. Why would the IRS have copies of anything if the dad has never filed? Plus the girl is listed in the census records in 2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Here is information on how to get a delayed birth certificate, which she was told she needed: http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/passports/information/secondary-evidence.html I quote from the article: If she cannot get the birth attendant to sign or an affidavit from the parents, she is rather out of luck. Scrolling further down, in all cases people are told that they MUST have someone who has personal knowledge of their birth to sign. An older blood relative OR anyone else who has personal knowledge of the birth is required. In that case, you would think the grandparents (older blood relatives) could attest to her birth. Maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 someone was asking why the midwife wouldn't file a certificate of live birth since midwives in texas are *required* to . . . well, they are also required to register themselves with the state and be licensed. . . . . with parents who are against filing taxes (and have not since 1996) - I can see them either preferring or at least not caring if their midwife was properly licensed. if the midwife wasn't licensed, to file a certificate of live birth would invite the state to investigate why someone without a license delivered a baby . . . it would also explain why she is now refusing to help alecia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The Penningtons are not off the grid..right here..they have been paying property tax... http://propaccess.kerrcad.org/clientdb/Property.aspx?prop_id=13614 I can't help but wonder why you are so intent on proving that the parents are such good and honest people, despite all evidence to the contrary. Of course they paid property taxes. If they hadn't, they would have been evicted from their home and the property sold at a sheriff's sale. They're dishonest and fraudulent, but nobody has said they are complete morons. Additionally, I'm not sure you understand the definition of living "off the grid." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Elisabet1, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:07 PM, said:Elisabet1, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:07 PM, said:Elisabet1, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:07 PM, said: I found no record of any criminal proceedings against the family. Do you have anything to show there are actual tax evasion records? I saw something where the dad has sued the IRS for copies of something. I did not read the whole thing though. But the dad is listed as the plaintiff. Why would the IRS have copies of anything if the dad has never filed? Plus the girl is listed in the census records in 2000. the IRS won judgments against them to gain access to the bank records of "the anchor group" the father runs and *claims* is a church. (more likely a means of sheltering income.) I agree with cat. why are you so determined to prove the parents innocent, and the child the one in the wrong? do you espouse the keeping your kids off-the grid mind-set? the controlling your kids no matter how old they are? (the daughter is 19 - legally she should be free to make her own choices. - except some nutcase (I loath to call them) Christian groups are against giving their daughters any autonomous rights. which IS abusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I can't help but wonder why you are so intent on proving that the parents are such good and honest people, despite all evidence to the contrary. Of course they paid property taxes. If they hadn't, they would have been evicted from their home and the property sold at a sheriff's sale. They're dishonest and fraudulent, but nobody has said they are complete morons. Additionally, I'm not sure you understand the definition of living "off the grid." I am saying there is no evidence from either side. But the girl's story does not add up. I don't know why you are intent on proving the parents are bad. There is just no evidence, other than this one girl claiming this is going on. In the end, it might very well be true. It could go either way. But if the parents have really been tax evaders that long, why would they file a suit against the IRS? It seems to me that would put them on the radar. Why would anyone sue the IRS who is evading taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I found no record of any criminal proceedings against the family. Do you have anything to show there are actual tax evasion records? I saw something where the dad has sued the IRS for copies of something. I did not read the whole thing though. But the dad is listed as the plaintiff. Why would the IRS have copies of anything if the dad has never filed?. Tax fraud is a crime. Period. The parents were required to file their taxes, just like everyone else. I don't know the details, but I would assume the IRS is requesting proof of filing from the parents, and if they can't provide that, the IRS will want returns to be filed for all of the missing years. This is a huge deal, not some minor little oversight on the part of the parents. It is outright fraud and could very well ultimately result in the father losing both his CPA license and his ability to practice law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 According to her sister...Alecia is the problem here... Patience Pennington I am Alecia's sister. Two of her older sibling had no trouble getting drivers' licenses and I and another one of my siblings are currently working on it and are having no trouble getting the identification we need. We chose not to file birth certificates for religious reasons. Our parents felt it was best to give us a choice of having a SSN when we were older. There's no reason an infant should have to have one. The reason why Alecia is having so much trouble is that she is unwilling to have any kind of relationship with my parents and meet with them to work this out. Like · 5 · 22 hours ago Patience Pennington Actually no Asia. My parents have been kind and loving toward her. They don't agree with many of her choices but they don't judge her for them. I think you would be surprised how unconditional, gracious, and kind they have been toward her. Loving her like Jesus loves her. They aren't asking her to apologize or submit. They know she has different ideas and they're okay with that. All they're asking is that she speak to them. I'm really not trying to be rude, but honestly 90% of her communication has been either accusations of demands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I am saying there is no evidence from either side. But the girl's story does not add up. I don't know why you are intent on proving the parents are bad. There is just no evidence, other than this one girl claiming this is going on. In the end, it might very well be true. It could go either way. But if the parents have really been tax evaders that long, why would they file a suit against the IRS? It seems to me that would put them on the radar. Why would anyone sue the IRS who is evading taxes. I would assume that the IRS approached them first. The father is a CPA. He knew he was supposed to file his taxes. Do you seriously believe he is not a criminal if he intentionally failed to file his tax returns for all those years? I have no clue what is going on with the daughter. I'm talking about the failure to file their taxes. You seem awfully emotionally invested in this story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 BPD/NPD parents treat siblings VERY differently on purpose. It's all part of control and manipulation. What is BPD/NPD? **Never mind... saw in another post above what it is** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 According to her sister...Alecia is the problem here... Patience Pennington I am Alecia's sister. Two of her older sibling had no trouble getting drivers' licenses and I and another one of my siblings are currently working on it and are having no trouble getting the identification we need. We chose not to file birth certificates for religious reasons. Our parents felt it was best to give us a choice of having a SSN when we were older. There's no reason an infant should have to have one. The reason why Alecia is having so much trouble is that she is unwilling to have any kind of relationship with my parents and meet with them to work this out. Like · 5 · 22 hours ago Patience Pennington Actually no Asia. My parents have been kind and loving toward her. They don't agree with many of her choices but they don't judge her for them. I think you would be surprised how unconditional, gracious, and kind they have been toward her. Loving her like Jesus loves her. They aren't asking her to apologize or submit. They know she has different ideas and they're okay with that. All they're asking is that she speak to them. I'm really not trying to be rude, but honestly 90% of her communication has been either accusations of demands. It just sounds like proof that they are making her meet their demands in order to give her the cooperation and information she needs for her birth certificate. Brilliant of them, they can keep controlling her for her entire adult life by not letting her get her bc unless she capitulates to their demands, however whacky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I would assume that the IRS approached them first. The father is a CPA. He knew he was supposed to file his taxes. Do you seriously believe he is not a criminal if he intentionally failed to file his tax returns for all those years? I have no clue what is going on with the daughter. I'm talking about the failure to file their taxes. You seem awfully emotionally invested in this story. So do you. You seem awfully invested. Why are you so sure the parents must have committed fraud against the IRS? Have you found anything online to back it up. I am in Texas. Criminal and civil proceedings are online. I found nothing against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 According to her sister...Alecia is the problem here... Patience PenningtonI am Alecia's sister. Two of her older sibling had no trouble getting drivers' licenses and I and another one of my siblings are currently working on it and are having no trouble getting the identification we need. We chose not to file birth certificates for religious reasons. Our parents felt it was best to give us a choice of having a SSN when we were older. There's no reason an infant should have to have one. The reason why Alecia is having so much trouble is that she is unwilling to have any kind of relationship with my parents and meet with them to work this out. Like · 5 · 22 hours ago Well. She convinced me! Just kidding. Really she just verified our intuition on this, didn't she, in that she revealed 1. The other siblings obtained docs but noticeably birth certificates were not listed, because 2. religious reasons, which is a made up thing, and 3. Alecia may not have her own legal info except on her parents' terms. Which should not be legal. Sorry, lady, your parents are religious nutcases and you are only solidifying your sister's case in the court of public opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 It just sounds like proof that they are making her meet their demands in order to give her the cooperation and information she needs for her birth certificate. Brilliant of them, they can keep controlling her for her entire adult life by not letting her get her bc unless she capitulates to their demands, whatever whacky. It is possible. But there is no evidence of anything and this entire thread is speculation. There is proof of things that are not true that the girl says. There is no proof that anything the mother has said isn't true. I am going to stop participating in this thread because there is no point. She states on her FB page that she now has a lawyer. Good. This will all get sorted out. Someone will be proven to be the liar. I have no clue which one. But there is no point to arguing it on a message board when there is no proof of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 It is possible. But there is no evidence of anything and this entire thread is speculation. There is proof of things that are not true that the girl says. There is no proof that anything the mother has said isn't true. I am going to stop participating in this thread because there is no point. She states on her FB page that she now has a lawyer. Good. This will all get sorted out. Someone will be proven to be the liar. I have no clue which one. But there is no point to arguing it on a message board when there is no proof of anything. You were using it as proof that she was lying, but it really only verified Alecia's position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 In our case, I talked about stuff going on with our daughter in the months preceding her leaving. Then she moved in with "grandparents" who were not even her real grandparents, but rather birth grandparents. Currently, in a little update, she has been using drugs now and getting drunk. We got some lovely texts from her the other day where she was obviously drunk. They were not mean texts, but they were obviously the rambling of someone who was under the influence. She is now couch surfing because my birthparents got tired of her. But not before exposing her to the world of drug abuse. They still let her stay there some nights I have been told, but she mostly just couch surfs. Thing is, we had arranged previously for her to return to college in January. We had put the money down and arranged the dorm and everything. I posted how she did not want a job. She felt she was too good for minimum wage. She got fired days before she left. We tried to contact her, she refused any contact. She contacted her brother wanting him to steal stuff from our home, but not her own personal stuff. Stuff, basically, that she could sell. She did not want clothes or such. She said her "new family" had purchased her all new stuff so she did not have needs there. BUT, we did try to reach out to her to see if she still wanted to go to college in January. Despite having left December 15, she claimed in January that she is prevented from going to college or having a job because we committed "identity theft" and stole her ID. Ok..the birth grandparents live on the same street as the DMV, just a few blocks down the road. She could walk there. Her public high school she attended, if she needed anything, is down the street the other direction, a place she could walk to. That is much further away, about a mile. The church she was baptized at and they know her at is right by the high school, she would pass it on the way to the high school. IF she wanted these documents, she can get them. PLUS, we tried to offer to give her her clothes and such. She did have a huge habit of losing her license all the time. I do not know if it is even lost or if she just doesn't want to have to go to work or school. Freeloading seems to be suiting her just fine right now. IF she actually did leave her ID here, it would be in her stuff. She refused to answer our texts or emails asking if she wants her stuff. Her brother tried to ask her. Her other brother tried to call her. She told her older brother she wants nothing from here at all. She refused to take a call from her younger brother. But regardless, if the government has copies of this stuff and she is a grown adult, she can get it herself. This slamming video the girl made never mentioned her even trying to contact the state to see if there was a birth certificate. And I doubt the family has skipped out on using her as a deduction on the taxes all these years. There has to be a SSN then. You can order all these things online if you want. I think this girl sounds to me like she wants to lash out at her parents. I am not saying her parents are me. But the siblings could not have enrolled in college without some form of ID or vaccination records or vaccination exemptions or social security or other id numbers. Despite my daughter's refusal to even take our offers to help, I called the DMV and looked up how to get a new license. It is not complicated at all. I sent her a link from online. But she would rather make excuses to get sympathy and money from others than just grow up and take responsibility. I wonder how long before this girl in this blog has a fundme page to support her "plight." Elisabet, the post I quoted here is the reason I think you are too emotionally invested in this story. Are you sure you aren't defending the parents because the situation reminds you of your personal difficulties with your own dd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 You were using it as proof that she was lying, but it really only verified Alecia's position. Yep. I mean, how much more explicit can you get than "Of course they will help her get her birth certificate. All she has to do is _____". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 So do you. You seem awfully invested. Why are you so sure the parents must have committed fraud against the IRS? Have you found anything online to back it up. I am in Texas. Criminal and civil proceedings are online. I found nothing against them. It seems to have been established that the parents have intentionally and knowingly not filed tax returns in many years. Do you not realize that it was illegal for them to have acted in that manner? Do you not realize that as a CPA and attorney, the father will be held to higher standards than the average person, because he had professional knowledge that what he was doing was against the rules? I can't believe you are taking the time to research criminal and civil proceedings, but at this point, it is most likely still an IRS issue so I'm not surprised that you haven't found anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 lauranc, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:16 PM, said:lauranc, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:16 PM, said:lauranc, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:16 PM, said: What is BPD/NPD? borderline personality disorder narcisstic personality disorder there are a bunch of threads on the subjects. basically, they are incredibly manipulative people whose victims are usually their children. it IS psychological abuse and should not be underestimated in the damage it can cause. everything is about controlling the children while aggrandizing (making a martyr of) themselves. it is subtle (think of the movie gaslight), and frequently those on the outside do not see it. anyone who objects becomes subject to their wrath. each child is given a role. e.g. victim - to be rescued (the NPD parent will actually push the child into a situation from which they need to be rescued.) scapegoat - to blame everything wrong upon golden child - the parent's favorite (they can actually be the most messed up) problem child - never does anything right and constantly criticized. those are just some of the more common roles. rolls can also cross over between categories. the common themes are the manipulation - and it. is. all. about. them. and how self-sacrificing they are for their children, and they just aren't appreciated . . . . :nopity: lisa's blogpost is a classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The older brother has also been posting about the case, and says that the parents purposely chose not to register the births or get SSNs for the kids, and consider that to be something the kids choose for themselves as adults (which is certainly a convenient way to keep control of them if they ever want to leave home). He seems quite paranoid, honestly, and says that as an adult he has purposely chosen not to get either a birth certificate or a SSN, but that his parents helped him get a passport and a drivers license. So the mom blatantly lied in her video (which she quickly removed) when she stated that she thought the midwife had filed for birth certificates and she was pretty sure one existed. Because even the older kids did not have them, and have stated that was a conscious choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipsey Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Something tangential but still interesting. There's a FB group for "Sovereign Babies" It's a closed group, and here are the specs: "For people that are considering or already have decided not to get a social security number and/or birth certificate for their baby. We beleive the decision to be a tax payer should be made by the child not the parent when he/she decides. Most hospitals/midwives are required to submit a document stating a live birth but parent's are not required to get a birth certificate or social security number or even state the baby's name on this document. The child can decide if they want these things when they are older. The courthouse keeps the record of live birth on file. This group also beleives in natural parenting such as no vaccines, unnecessary medical tests/procedures, pro breastfeeding, organic foods, cloth diapering, babywearing, etc.. Please feel free to post info/questions about these topics." (Ouch, look at those spelling errors!) This looks like another one of those examples where people can either be on the crazy left wing or crazy right wing. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 borderline personality disorder narcisstic personality disorder there are a bunch of threads on the subjects. basically, they are incredibly manipulative people whose victims are usually their children. it IS psychological abuse and should not be underestimated in the damage it can cause. everything is about controlling the children while aggrandizing (making a martyr of) themselves. it is subtle (think of the movie gaslight), and frequently those on the outside do not see it. anyone who objects becomes subject to their wrath. each child is given a role. e.g. victim - to be rescued (the NPD parent will actually push the child into a situation from which they need to be rescued.) scapegoat - to blame everything wrong upon golden child - the parent's favorite (they can actually be the most messed up) problem child - never does anything right and constantly criticized. those are just some of the more common roles. rolls can also cross over between categories. the common themes are the manipulation - and it. is. all. about. them. and how self-sacrificing they are for their children, and they just aren't appreciated . . . . :nopity: lisa's blogpost is a classic. Thanks. This is helpful. I reread the mom's blog post--- I see what you mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Something tangential but still interesting. There's a FB group for "Sovereign Babies" It's a closed group, and here are the specs: "For people that are considering or already have decided not to get a social security number and/or birth certificate for their baby. We beleive the decision to be a tax payer should be made by the child not the parent when he/she decides. Most hospitals/midwives are required to submit a document stating a live birth but parent's are not required to get a birth certificate or social security number or even state the baby's name on this document. The child can decide if they want these things when they are older. The courthouse keeps the record of live birth on file. This group also beleives in natural parenting such as no vaccines, unnecessary medical tests/procedures, pro breastfeeding, organic foods, cloth diapering, babywearing, etc.. Please feel free to post info/questions about these topics." (Ouch, look at those spelling errors!) This looks like another one of those examples where people can either be on the crazy left wing or crazy right wing. :) Yep. It is where the crazy meets in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The desire of Elisabet and others to assume that the parents must not be at fault is exactly what I mean about closing ranks. These are *our* people therefore we don't want them to have done this abusive thing. But they seem to have pretty clearly done it. And it's on us to keep homeschooling legal and safe to say, no, this is wrong. The sister's statements make it clear that the parents will cooperate when they want to. Just sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 According to her sister...Alecia is the problem here... Patience Pennington I am Alecia's sister. Two of her older sibling had no trouble getting drivers' licenses and I and another one of my siblings are currently working on it and are having no trouble getting the identification we need. We chose not to file birth certificates for religious reasons. Our parents felt it was best to give us a choice of having a SSN when we were older. There's no reason an infant should have to have one. The reason why Alecia is having so much trouble is that she is unwilling to have any kind of relationship with my parents and meet with them to work this out. Like · 5 · 22 hours ago Patience Pennington Actually no Asia. My parents have been kind and loving toward her. They don't agree with many of her choices but they don't judge her for them. I think you would be surprised how unconditional, gracious, and kind they have been toward her. Loving her like Jesus loves her. They aren't asking her to apologize or submit. They know she has different ideas and they're okay with that. All they're asking is that she speak to them. I'm really not trying to be rude, but honestly 90% of her communication has been either accusations of demands. So, reading between the lines here, the parents are withholding their help in obtaining the necessary documents because Alecia refuses to allow them to control her into adulthood. As the other kids all live at home, I'm guessing they are happy to stay under the parents' thumb indefinitely and so were able to get driver's licenses. This is abuse, pure and simple. It's no different from an abusive husband taking away his wife's identification to control her. I can't see anyone here defending that, so I don't know why it's suddenly okay when it's a parent instead of a spouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 So, reading between the lines here, the parents are withholding their help in obtaining the necessary documents because Alecia refuses to allow them to control her into adulthood. As the other kids all live at home, I'm guessing they are happy to stay under the parents' thumb indefinitely and so were able to get driver's licenses. This is abuse, pure and simple. It's no different from an abusive husband taking away his wife's identification to control her. I can't see anyone here defending that, so I don't know why it's suddenly okay when it's a parent instead of a spouse. Eh, I could see some here defending that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Here is information on how to get a delayed birth certificate, which she was told she needed: http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/passports/information/secondary-evidence.html I quote from the article: If she cannot get the birth attendant to sign or an affidavit from the parents, she is rather out of luck. Scrolling further down, in all cases people are told that they MUST have someone who has personal knowledge of their birth to sign. An older blood relative OR anyone else who has personal knowledge of the birth is required. No she is not. The state of Texas will allow quite a bit of sources to document for a delayed birth cert. The form also specificly says that grandparents or a sibling could sign off on it too. It does not have to be either of her parents. If she has EVER had a doctor appointment or hospital visit, she can use those records if they have her name and birth date and parents listed on it. (All of mine and my kids do.). Personal knowledge is NOT defined as someone who witnessed her birth. It does say it can take up to 10 weeks to receive the delayed birth certificate, but if a birth certificate was never applied for, she can absolutely get one without any help from her parents necessary. No lawyer needed either. Just $25 and some paperwork and her grandparents signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 And a person trying to be truly "off the grid" would not have a hugely public blog & homeschool speaking "ministry." That's what doesn't add up in this story to me. They clearly are NOT trying to avoid the government or hide their children. Their children are on their blog for everyone to see. It just doesn't add up. otoh, we've had some cases of people trying being deliberately 'in your face' to the gov't. I think some of them feel they're martyring themselves for the cause or just that it's their calling to spread this info, regardless of what personal harm it may cause. This all sounds part of the larger Freeman thing... I've seen SSN be called slave surveillance numbers... :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ipsey, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:34 PM, said: Something tangential but still interesting. There's a FB group for "Sovereign Babies" It's a closed group, and here are the specs: "For people that are considering or already have decided not to get a social security number and/or birth certificate for their baby. We beleive the decision to be a tax payer should be made by the child not the parent when he/she decides. This looks like another one of those examples where people can either be on the crazy left wing or crazy right wing. :) well, they'd better keep a close watch for those black helicopters . . thunk it is scary that people this paranoid can have children and mess them up too. . .(and it is on both sides. I'll always remember the family I saw, where SMALL, preschool/primary children were covered in tattoos with weird hair styles in fluorescent colors in extreme goth clothing -just like mom's and dad's. it was summer - so not Halloween.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 No she is not. The state of Texas will allow quite a bit of sources to document for a delayed birth cert. The form also specificly says that grandparents or a sibling could sign off on it too. It does not have to be either of her parents. If she has EVER had a doctor appointment or hospital visit, she can use those records if they have her name and birth date and parents listed on it. (All of mine and my kids do.). Personal knowledge is NOT defined as someone who witnessed her birth. It does say it can take up to 10 weeks to receive the delayed birth certificate, but if a birth certificate was never applied for, she can absolutely get one without any help from her parents necessary. No lawyer needed either. Just $25 and some paperwork and her grandparents signature. Maybe the lawyer can convince the court to accept the grandparents. It does seem that she's already tried that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 ChocolateReign, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:43 PM, said:ChocolateReign, on 12 Feb 2015 - 1:43 PM, said:Eh, I could see some here defending that. I HAVE seen some here defending that . . . . (seems like they also liked the pearls . . . ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 No she is not. The state of Texas will allow quite a bit of sources to document for a delayed birth cert. The form also specificly says that grandparents or a sibling could sign off on it too. It does not have to be either of her parents. If she has EVER had a doctor appointment or hospital visit, she can use those records if they have her name and birth date and parents listed on it. (All of mine and my kids do.). Personal knowledge is NOT defined as someone who witnessed her birth. It does say it can take up to 10 weeks to receive the delayed birth certificate, but if a birth certificate was never applied for, she can absolutely get one without any help from her parents necessary. No lawyer needed either. Just $25 and some paperwork and her grandparents signature. It is not nearly as simple as you claim. http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/vs/delayed/15older.shtm "Three (3) or more documents are required to prove date of birth and place of birth. One of these records must verify parents' names. Any record, other than an affidavit, must be five (5) years old or older. At least one document should have been created within 10 years of birth." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Is that a homeschool problem though ? It's not a homeschool problem for me. My 'community' - meaning the people I regularly spend time with who also homeschool - is pro-registration and pro-young adults having adult rights. Why can't we come out and say it's a religion problem ? A particular religious interpretation seems to be a common factor in many of these cases of 'homeschool' abuse - and yet we focus on the homeschool and not the religion ? Seems weird to me and makes no sense. I cannot see why I, in any way, shape or form, have a responsibility as a homeschooler for people acting under bizarre religious beliefs. Surely it's fellow religionists who have the responsibility ? I've been thinking about this, as a very religious person. My conclusion is no. There are no historic, legit religions on earth that have holy books, holy men, deities, whatever, that call for civil disobedience to harmless societal laws and customs. These people only get away with this stuff through bypassing Checkpoint #2 on the Normal American Path, which is public school registration. (Checkpoint #1 is birth, but irregularities there are caught at second checkpoint.) It's a homeschool problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 well, they'd better keep a close watch for those black helicopters . . thunk it is scary that people this paranoid can have children and mess them up too. . .(and it is on both sides. I'll always remember the family I saw, where SMALL, preschool/primary children were covered in tattoos with weird hair styles in fluorescent colors in extreme goth clothing -just like mom's and dad's. it was summer - so not Halloween.) If you really want some fun, google "strawman redemption" and you will get a plethora of birth certificate woo. Ties into the sovereign citizen/Moorish temple nuttiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 "Follow me against a government that is not harming you" is always a cult move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you really want some fun, google "strawman redemption" and you will get a plethora of birth certificate woo. Ties into the sovereign citizen/Moorish temple nuttiness. Oh my God, I thought I'd found every nutty underbelly of the internet a long time ago, but this is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Yes to the above. Once you've been through a young adult child turning his/her back on you, it is very difficult to parse out or judge these kinds of things. It isn't always a case of abuse or crazy parenting. (although, sometimes it is!) Also. In all of this I keep thinking that the parents are making a huge mistake putting out youtube videos and blogging etc. I think the daughter made a mistake going public as well, but she's 19 and maybe doesn't have very good foresight. If there are older siblings who have managed to get drivers licenses, college educations, etc.. then I'm wondering why this daughter is being treated differently (if she is). I don't know that I agree about a mediator. Sometimes there really is no median ground. :( But I do completely agree that I would not be going online about it. Like I already noted, many moms of older kids go rather silent even when things are great for the sake of privacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 It's like a trailer for a bad Lifetime movie of the week. "My wife fled the house without her passport? Of course I'll help her, she just has to agree to talk to me first!" Not a chance. It's creepy, it's manipulative, it's not right. I don't care if it's parents instead of a husband. You don't get to attach strings to someone else's freedom of movement. She is an adult and they need to respect that whether she wants a relationship with them or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 She did not, her parents filed for a legal name change for the ENTIRE family. That is a LOT of paperwork for all of them. It doesn't work like that in oklahoma or texas. I can't just change our entire family name. I have to change the name of each person in the family at the time of the name change. It's time consuming, you have to see a judge, it s a big huge PITA. That doesn't make any sense either.... Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sorry, as a secular home educator who registers, encourages registration and doesn't have relationships with her children based on wacko interpretations of religion...I don't have any responsibility for people like this. None. My point is not that you, or I, or any hs'er should be responsible for them. It's that you can't foist them onto religious people, either, for exactly the same reasons. 100% the same reasons. No association at all, no real shared beliefs, no commonality of lawless behavior, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Dulce Domem, on 12 Feb 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:Dulce Domem, on 12 Feb 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:Self-employed people have to pay income tax - they file slightly differently, but we definitely pay the same income tax everyone does. (My husband is considered self employed) pennington has a "church" called "the anchor group" that the IRS has now been granted access to their bank records because they were hiding income. he hasn't been paying taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyhwkmama Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Reading this article on Patheos will give you a good feel for what it was like living inside that house. It is all about CONTROL. This article has plenty of direct, in context quotes from Lisa Pennington. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/02/the-pennington-point-on-adult-kids-living-at-home.html ETA: The daughter obviously did not like living under the parents' terms, so she moved out. Just what any adult should do in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 My point is not that you, or I, or any hs'er should be responsible for them. It's that you can't foist them onto religious people, either, for exactly the same reasons. 100% the same reasons. No association at all, no real shared beliefs, no commonality of lawless behavior, etc. Agreed. As a person of religion, a homeschooler, a Texan, and a mother, I am standing as FAR away from this crazy family as possible. They are lawless and not following the Biblical admonition of "rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's". They do not in any way, shape, or form represent me or my family. I have more in common with Sadie. (Hi Sadie! :D) If the two older siblings of this girl are male, that is likely why they are allowed to have driver's licenses and college educations. The mother's vague talk of thinking that maybe a birth certificate was filed and offers of help to this young lady are disingenuous, at best. I trust that this will get sorted out in the legal system, and she will get what she needs, even if it takes a court order to force the parents to produce it. She is likely the child who rebelled, and this is not tolerated in the family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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