Have we talked about Alecia Pennington?

[TranquilMind]

I am not going to get into a round of circular debate with you. Been there. Done that.

 

What I will say is:

 

#1- I did not say all abusers are Christians. A a matter of fact, in a subsequent post, I wrote, "I don't for one second think everyone who is a conservative Christian is an abuser. I also don't think people who have not experienced even a sliver of this sort of abuse immediately understand how religion can fuel the warped thinking and damaging dynamic that keeps the cycle going."

 

#2- the merits of this particular case have been well documented by the mother's own words on her blog.

 

#3- I refuse to judge each case on its merits when there is a pervasive culture that cloaks itself in religiosity and acts as a catalyst for abuse. Would this family have had an abusive element without the church teachings they took to heart? Probably. An ass, is an ass, is an ass. Would they have had an echo chamber of people telling them they were acting in an acceptable, even laudable, manner if they had not been involved in this flavor of Christianity? Most likely not.

 

#4- these are not "those people" they are OUR people. As homeschoolers. As Christians. And I have had enough first hand experience to know exactly who and what they teach and I assure you the brush I am using is exactly the right width.

 

 

Yes, you backpedaled afterward,  I'm going to correct that sort of broad-brushing - and it was broad, not the right size.  You subsequently attempted to cut it to the right size. 

[meena]

I'm on my tablet so can't quote, but @TranquilMind and @Jean in Newcastle I wasn't referring to Ezzo's Babywise. Let's not allow the debate surrounding that book derail this discussion.

 

I was referencing Growing Kids God's Way, a parenting curriculum written by the Ezzos, which does not have a secular version. I think it's the only book I've ever thrown in the trash.

 

edit to say, I can't multi-quote.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm on my tablet so can't quote, but @TranquilMind and @Jean in Newcastle I wasn't referring to Ezzo's Babywise. Let's not allow the debate surrounding that book derail this discussion.

 

I was referencing Growing Kids God's Way, a parenting curriculum written by the Ezzos, which does not have a secular version. I think it's the only book I've ever thrown in the trash.

Gotcha.  I've never come across that book or curriculum.  

[TranquilMind]

Of course, this only works, when it works at all, for bottle fed babies, and some CIO is considered to be part of the process.

 

For successful breastfeeding, nursing has to be on demand and you have to be willing to nurse babies to sleep sometimes. The breastmilk acts as a soporific so it's not exactly natural, practical, or possible to get them up for active playtime after nursing when they're sleepy. The aforementioned CIO is also very detrimental to a successful long-term breastfeeding relationship.

 

But then, the Ezzos never did know anything at all about breastfeeding which is why so many of the families following "Growing Kids Gary's Way" found themselves with failure-to-thrive infants. Very sad and totally unnecessary.

 

My totally breastfed and never Ezzo'ed children were also great sleepers from early ages. They never pushed anybody off swings, either, as Ezzo predicted they would.

Well, good for you.  Glad it worked.  I bet your kids did work themselves into some sort of a pattern though. 

 

Failure to thrive can happen anyway, even with attachment.  There are people who have a breast in a kid's mouth all day, but simply aren't producing milk, or enough milk. 

 

I am one of them, and would have caused a problem for my first baby, except that my excellent midwife caught it.  I once breastfed for 7 straight hours until I was bleeding - and the kid was still hungry.  Good thing I didn't listen to that extremely awful "Just do it even longer" advice I got from a "lactation consultant" I eventually threw out of my house after she pinched a blocked milk duct on my bloody nipple.  No one ever worked harder than I did to breastfeed.  I popped the babies out like they were nothing, but breastfeeding was a killer.    I could have breastfed for 8, 9, 10 hours or more at a time, but the result would have been the same, for whatever reason.

 

You HAVE to use common sense.  Thankfully, I caught it earlier in subsequent breastfeeding.  I kept trying, ever the optimist, and managed for a few months but I did use common sense. 

[TranquilMind]

I'm on my tablet so can't quote, but @TranquilMind and @Jean in Newcastle I wasn't referring to Ezzo's Babywise. Let's not allow the debate surrounding that book derail this discussion.

 

I was referencing Growing Kids God's Way, a parenting curriculum written by the Ezzos, which does not have a secular version. I think it's the only book I've ever thrown in the trash.

Ok.  I was thinking "Babywise" because that's the one Ezzo book I read.  Sorry to derail. 

[texasmama]

Of course, this only works, when it works at all, for bottle fed babies, and some CIO is considered to be part of the process.

 

For successful breastfeeding, nursing has to be on demand and you have to be willing to nurse babies to sleep sometimes. The breastmilk acts as a soporific so it's not exactly natural, practical, or possible to get them up for active playtime after nursing when they're sleepy. The aforementioned CIO is also very detrimental to a successful long-term breastfeeding relationship.

 

But then, the Ezzos never did know anything at all about breastfeeding which is why so many of the families following "Growing Kids Gary's Way" found themselves with failure-to-thrive infants. Very sad and totally unnecessary.

 

My totally breastfed and never Ezzo'ed children were also great sleepers from early ages. They never pushed anybody off swings, either, as Ezzo predicted they would.

Exactly. 

 

The Ezzos have a prescriptive, one-size-fits-all, scare tactic-based approach.  They indoctrinate people by having churches present courses by experienced parents including meeting at the group leaders' homes, watching videos, doing workbooks which include Bible verses about how correct this program is, and discussing the benefits of using this program (the only correct way to parent, according to them) and the terrible risks and drawbacks of not using it.  Not every parent buys into this, but I did.  And I was in my late 20's and well-educated.  I was not an idiot.  I was just a new and anxious parent and was unduly influenced by peers using the program. 

 

Due to the influence and pressure of the Ezzo's courses presented by peers at my church (at the time but no longer), I told my nine month old "no" when she reached for the glass front of the stereo cabinet.  She touched it anyway, and I smacked her hand.  She touched it again, and I smacked her hand again.  She cried and touched it again and then held out her hand to be smacked.  At that point, I cried.  That was a turning point.

 

I could have been Lisa Pennington buying tiny baby spankers and insisting that my 15 month old say "Hi Mommy" or face the dire consequences.  Thank God (literally) I saw the light.

 

I'm passionate about a few things.  This is one of them.  As long as I have breath, I will speak against the Ezzos and their methods.  I do think they have toned down their materials due to lawsuits and pressure from medical professionals speaking out against their very breastfeeding unfriendly practices.  My oldest child and I were harmed due to their philosophies, along with many other people.  Neither of us derived any benefit at all.  I am not alone in this.

 

It is a very godless way of parenting, absent any grace, humility, or flexibility.  Jesus does not approve, I dare say.

 

That is not to say that anyone who manages to get their baby on some sort of schedule is a terrible parent.  The Ezzo philosophy is not just about getting your baby on a schedule.  There is a subtext of control which runs throughout their parenting methods which becomes more and more clear and obvious the longer you practice the method and the older the children get.  I went through the "Preparation for Parenting" and "Preparation for the Toddler Years" series, taught by the same couple at my church.  I quit after that so I never made it to the aptly named (by Tibbie) "Growing Kids Gary's Way".  Their message is "Don't let kids change you or inconvenience you or your life.  If they do, you are a failure and your kids will be godless in every way possible."  I think that kids are meant to change us and our lives.  That is one of the grand and God-planned purposes of having children.

[meena]

<quote snipped for brevity>

 

"Growing Kids Gary's Way"

Absolutely! I was always astounded by seasoned Christians who couldn't see how Ezzo perverted Scripture to support his methods. I felt like such an outcast for blasting him among my Christian peers.

[TranquilMind]

Which is all well and good unless the meat is poisoned.

That's why you verify the meat's condition, instead of just believe whomever tells you that it is fine. 

[texasmama]

I'm on my tablet so can't quote, but @TranquilMind and @Jean in Newcastle I wasn't referring to Ezzo's Babywise. Let's not allow the debate surrounding that book derail this discussion.

 

I was referencing Growing Kids God's Way, a parenting curriculum written by the Ezzos, which does not have a secular version. I think it's the only book I've ever thrown in the trash.

And this is what I am referring to, as well, the Growing Kids God's Way curriculum, including Preparation for Parenting and Preparation for the Toddler Years.  That series of books is very much along the lines of the Pennington discipline strategies.

[FO4UR]

Which is all well and good unless the meat is poisoned.

:iagree:

 

 

There is nothing redeeming about the Ezzo's.  The entire point of their system is to undermine and undercut the mother-baby bond. Start from the beginning viewing that tiny sweet little person as an object to obey. It's a sacred trust between mother & baby, and the deception & betrayal!!!!...it certainly keeps the woman in the kitchen instead of caring for the needs of her baby, doesn't it?

 

 

 

 

And the thing I'd like to communicate is that obedience is not obedience if it's coerced.  That is coercion. Whether we are talking about 15mo babies or their 32yo mothers...it isn't obedience, it isn't love, it isn't anything good. It's abuse. 

 

 

Obedience, true obedience, must be a willing act. It's an act of feeling the immediate desire to do one thing, yet doing the other thing instead b/c it is better in the long run. Coercion actually *disrupts* the process of teaching your children to obey.  The 15mo who is swatted does not grow up thinking about doing what mommy thinks is best b/c she HURTS him...he only does what she wants if there is an immediate threat present. The moment she is not there to see it, he WILL do everything she won't allow.  Love is self-sacrifice. Even a baby knows when a person truly loves them. When a child lacks self-sacrificial love, their internal drive for self-survival kicks in....and that gets ugly, especially for kids who have a strong will.  The goal should NEVER be to break a child's will. The goal should be to help a child use their strong will for good...which brings us back to obedience being a willing act...it is a strong willed child who can withstand the desire to misbehave and turn their thoughts to things that are good.  It's a strong willed person who can lay down their own immediate desires to give love to someone else.

 

 

The truth here is that these parents don't want strong children. They want compliant children.  Alecia is a strong person.  She will be ok.

[meena]

@texasmama I'm so sorry you were subjected to that. Thank you for continuing to speak out against these terrible methods that have been normalized in too many churches and families.

[Lady Florida.]

This type of "discipline" and parent-child relationship dynamics sound very much like Ezzo's Growing Kids God's Way. There's a local Christian homeschool/community school hybrid that my DH and I were looking into when our kids were approaching school age. This school required all parents take the GKGW class and then expected parents and children to follow those methods to the letter. I was able to preview the class workbook and couldn't believe what I was reading. It was twisting the Bible to condone such harsh parenting methods. Needless to say, we stayed far away from that school as well as any churches that promoted the use of materials from the Ezzos, Pearls, Maxwells, etc.

 

It's like these people, Pennington's included, want to make their children into robots who do their bidding. For what? So they have children who might be perfectly behaved on the outside, but on the inside have broken hearts desperately seeking true love and acceptance? So, so sad.

 

When we were still believers, we attended a United Methodist Church. Someone who was high up in the children's ministry got sucked into the Ezzo stuff and went to the pastor about having a workshop based on their methods. He was pretty excited about it until others in the ministry went to him and explained just how the Ezzo's do things. He quickly shut it down, and said it had no place in Christian parenting or any parenting for that matter. I really liked that man, and that church in particular even though I quit believing in a god.

 

The bolded is so sad, but so true that it makes me cry.

[texasmama]

@texasmama I'm so sorry you were subjected to that. Thank you for continuing to speak out against these terrible methods that have been normalized in too many churches and families.

Thank you.

 

I actually enjoy speaking out. :D  I have a good relationship with my oldest child and have apologized for my ignorance in the methods I used with her in her early years.  She was very sweet about it. 

 

I also speak out because I want to be an example of how to change a parenting philosophy mid-stream.  I haven't found too many people doing that, and I'm not sure why.  Most people seem to settle on one early on and stick with it, but that may just be the experience I've had in my own circle.  I wonder sometimes how the now adult children of that couple who taught the classes are doing, how their relationship with their parents is, and how they look back on their childhood.  These were good people who were well-meaning.  They were loving and caring in many ways.  The mom is an R.N.  They were just deceived by this philosophy.

[ktgrok]

The Ezzos did have one good piece of advice I haven't forgotten even 20 years later. 

 

"Eat - Play -Sleep", and don't mix up the order, in order to establish great sleeping habits. 

 

I couldn't tell you another thing that book said at this point, but I do remember this, and it worked beautifully.  I had great sleepers from a very early age. 

 

Reminds me of the old adage about eating the meat and spitting out the bones. 

 

Whereas i thought that was the dumbest piece of advice in the book. Babies naturally have a biological rhythm that is exactly the opposite. One designed by God. I'm not messing with it. If breastfeeding wasn't meant to put babies (and moms) to sleep, it wouldn't do it so very well. Humans have been nursing babies to sleep since time began, I'm not switching up what worked for millenia because of that guy's advice. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Whereas i thought that was the dumbest piece of advice in the book. Babies naturally have a biological rhythm that is exactly the opposite. One designed by God. I'm not messing with it. If breastfeeding wasn't meant to put babies (and moms) to sleep, it wouldn't do it so very well. Humans have been nursing babies to sleep since time began, I'm not switching up what worked for millenia because of that guy's advice. 

 

Yep.

 

We briefly attended a GKGW cult church. My mother was a member there, too. As the ezzovangelists constantly made the rounds with invites to info nights and whatnot, even to the point of handing out flyers to people in the pews in the sanctuary (that was weird), Mom just had one question:

 

"What are their results?"

 

I said, "Mom, none of their grown kids even speak to them and they are rarely allowed anywhere near their grandchildren." (www.ezzo.info)

 

She said, "That's all I need to know."

 

And then she asked the young woman with the flyers why she, a grandmother of 10 (at that time) whose children were full grown and none of them in jail, was being bombarded with advertising for parenting seminars at church. She was very offended.

[TranquilMind]

Whereas i thought that was the dumbest piece of advice in the book. Babies naturally have a biological rhythm that is exactly the opposite. One designed by God. I'm not messing with it. If breastfeeding wasn't meant to put babies (and moms) to sleep, it wouldn't do it so very well. Humans have been nursing babies to sleep since time began, I'm not switching up what worked for millenia because of that guy's advice. 

Ok, then.

I presume what you did worked for you beautifully, as what I did worked for me.  Having never been around babies, it made intuitive sense to keep them up for a little while (and it is a very short time, with a newborn, obviously) rather than to put them down on a full stomach.   I know I don't feel particularly well when I do that, so it made sense to me to attempt to work into some kind of schedule. 

 

If you also had fantastic sleepers from an early age, who were well-rested, happy, and healthy, then great.    Win for both of us. 

[TranquilMind]

Yep.

 

We briefly attended a GKGW cult church. My mother was a member there, too. As the ezzovangelists constantly made the rounds with invites to info nights and whatnot, even to the point of handing out flyers to people in the pews in the sanctuary (that was weird), Mom just had one question:

 

"What are their results?"

 

I said, "Mom, none of their grown kids even speak to them and they are rarely allowed anywhere near their grandchildren." (www.ezzo.info)

 

She said, "That's all I need to know."

 

And then she asked the young woman with the flyers why she, a grandmother of 10 (at that time) whose children were full grown and none of them in jail, was being bombarded with advertising for parenting seminars at church. She was very offended.

Wow.  I never even heard of churches that were holding conferences, or making a big deal out of it.  Some mom just gave me a book, knowing I had never been around babies, so I read it. 

[Murphy101]

Absolutely! I was always astounded by seasoned Christians who couldn't see how Ezzo perverted Scripture to support his methods. I felt like such an outcast for blasting him among my Christian peers.

I always get annoyed about the title Growing Kids God's Way.

 

Don't they know all God's kids are screwed up?

 

The first time obediance thing is just annoying. It's for sure not biblical. God started with two kids he gave his undivided personal presence and attention to and one rule. Don't eat the damn apple. Soon as he turned his back, they ate the apple. If God wasn't able to command first time obediance every time in paradise without peers or interference, I'm pretty sure I'm screwed at being able to get it these days. Nevermind that obediance alone is not my goal anyways.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Wow.  I never even heard of churches that were holding conferences, or making a big deal out of it.  Some mom just gave me a book, knowing I had never been around babies, so I read it. 

 

You missed a really weird phenomenon. So glad those days seem to be in the past!

 

Ezzo, Pearl, and Gothard all spread like wildfire for the same reason -- like yourself, many new parents lack mentors and/or experience with children, so they're looking for a manual of some sort. In churches, at least, it's a sign that the prior generation is not doing its job. Nothing more biblical than older women teaching younger women how to take care of their children.

[TranquilMind]

Yep.

 

We briefly attended a GKGW cult church. My mother was a member there, too. As the ezzovangelists constantly made the rounds with invites to info nights and whatnot, even to the point of handing out flyers to people in the pews in the sanctuary (that was weird), Mom just had one question:

 

"What are their results?"

 

I said, "Mom, none of their grown kids even speak to them and they are rarely allowed anywhere near their grandchildren." (www.ezzo.info)

 

She said, "That's all I need to know."

 

And then she asked the young woman with the flyers why she, a grandmother of 10 (at that time) whose children were full grown and none of them in jail, was being bombarded with advertising for parenting seminars at church. She was very offended.

Well, that is clearly an anti-Ezzo site, but it is unclear who is producing it, so it is hard to determine the bias there. 

 

I don't see anything about the kids not speaking to the parents mentioned on that website.  Where is it?  Can you identify the location of the statements by the children?   I found only an unsubstantiated statement about this estrangement on "author's qualifications" wherein the unknown author of the site simply asserts it, without stating his source of knowledge about this estrangement.   I googled "Ezzos estranged from kids" and came up with no corroboration.  Have the children spoken somewhere? 

[TranquilMind]

You missed a really weird phenomenon. So glad those days seem to be in the past!

 

Ezzo, Pearl, and Gothard all spread like wildfire for the same reason -- like yourself, many new parents lack mentors and/or experience with children, so they're looking for a manual of some sort. In churches, at least, it's a sign that the prior generation is not doing its job. Nothing more biblical than older women teaching younger women how to take care of their children.

I certainly agree with that.  That's why I listened to the "older" women (thought technically, some, but not all of them were younger than me, but they were "older" in having brought up children before me). 

 

Not much replaces parenting experience. 

[KidsHappen]

I don't agree with this lady, but occasional tot spanking was very normal "discipline" not that long ago.  It reads to me like she's trying to "codify" old-fashioned discipline, trying to make it "make sense" on paper, trying to use religion to rationalize base instincts, as well as exhibiting a lack of understanding of kids.

 

My mom was not abusive, but she would spank for some things that are considered "normal" baby/tot behavior.  The difference is that she would give a swat once or possibly a few times (depending on the kid) and that would be the end of it.  The kid would stop doing whatever it was and have no recollection of the event.  There was no long sanctimonious discussion of how you need to develop patience and consistency and do it with Godly love and bla bla bla.  I suspect that kind of writing (by Lisa and others) was reactionary to the movement against traditional corporal punishment.  The problem is that this cultish approach probably resulted in a lot more spankings.  Instead of "damn, nothing else was working and I couldn't deal with it so I spanked and that worked," we have this "you have to spank early and often or your kid is going to Hell and it will be your failing.  Even if it doesn't seem to be working, you have to keep on spanking every single time.  Maybe the problem is that you aren't spanking hard enough."

 

A couple of years ago I sat through a Sunday School class based on a book that taught that you have to spank your kids every single time they disobey.  Starting from about 1yo if not sooner.  If you don't, you obviously hate your child because you don't care if they go to Hell.  You're supposed to tell your kid, "I have no choice but to spank you."  BS.  My mom spanked because it was expedient.  And she realized it would only work if it was NOT done all the time, or in extreme ways.  I've spanked my kids, and I can't imagine telling them that I'm doing it to save their souls.  I can't imagine feeling the glow of righteousness on account of spanking.  But on the other hand, I don't feel the need to justify those occasional spanks I have given.

 

Just a thought:  if parents need to spank to save kids' souls, then why don't the parents need spanked to save their souls?  I'm guessing they don't claim to be already perfect....

You don't even want to go there. It is called domestic discipline and it is some of the most disturbing content I have ever found on the internet.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The ezzo.info site -- I was just now poking around there, and it's changed a ton since I used it as a reference on a near-weekly basis. I knew the founders of it personally but I don't know if they're still in charge.

 

I'll look again for the specific info later tonight when I have time -- the scoop is that the Ezzoes were excommunicated from their church over serious character issues, and estranged from their children who do not endorse their teachings and who do agree with the church's discipline of their parents.

 

This info has been on many other sources beyond ezzo.info; I'll look again later, if nobody else here locates a source first.

[TranquilMind]

The ezzo.info site -- I was just now poking around there, and it's changed a ton since I used it as a reference on a near-weekly basis. I knew the founders of it personally but I don't know if they're still in charge.

 

I'll look again for the specific info later tonight when I have time -- the scoop is that the Ezzoes were excommunicated from their church over serious character issues, and estranged from their children who do not endorse their teachings and who do agree with the church's discipline of their parents.

 

This info has been on many other sources beyond ezzo.info; I'll look again later, if nobody else here locates a source first.

I didn't find any other sources, so I will be interested in seeing this. 

[Lady Florida.]

I certainly agree with that.  That's why I listened to the "older" women (thought technically, some, but not all of them were younger than me, but they were "older" in having brought up children before me). 

 

Not much replaces parenting experience. 

 

 

I agree to a extent. As someone who was an older first-time mom I learned a lot from women much younger than me who had been there before me. I also learned (and continue to learn) from chronologically older and wiser women. 

 

However, I don't automatically think age and  experience means I should listen to their advice*. We've learned so much about child development in the last 20-30 years and continue to learn. My mother had some great advice for me when she was still alive, as well as some very outdated advice. If either of my grandmothers were still alive they'd likely have more outdated advice than my mother. 

 

Some things do replace parenting experience. It's a fine line to walk when between accepting the advice of experienced women and making sure their advice is still relevant and good for your child. 

 

 

*I also don't think my age (59) and experience means younger moms should automatically listen to me. I don't give unsolicited advice to my ddil. She's a nurse and she's also read the kinds of child development information I haven't needed to read in many years. Even seemingly small things like which way to lay a child in a crib and car seat safety have changed in the 17-1/2 years since ds was born. 

 

I also want to brag and say I'm so proud of dss and ddil for choosing not to spank, ever. They get some flack from her parents and from grandparents on both sides, but they hold their ground.

[melmichigan]

Lisa Pennington appears to be editing her archived posts to make them seem less extreme and controlling.

I imagine so.  I couldn't read past the part where food was a privilege.

[ikslo]

I found myself feeling sorry for Lisa today.  My DS said he loved me.  It's nothing new - he says it to me all the time, and I say it to him all the time.  Un-coerced, randomly, because we each truly feel love for each other.  Lisa, despite having 9 children, has probably never heard one of her own child profess love for here where they really meant it, rather than just saying it because it was what was expected of them.  She has no idea of the joy that accompanies hearing those heartfelt words. That is just so sad.

[Jasperstone]

I was actually thinking these are just the people to be into that. (although, most of me thinks the whole idea is a made up one for people into BDSM to fantasize about.)

And to try and justify it!

 

Sickos!!!!

[swimmermom3]

Really?  Abusive just because they didn't get a birth certificate?  We know several homeschooling families whose kids are "under the radar." They were born at home and don't have birth certificates or SSNs.  Yeah, I think they're a little paranoid. I think they're making it difficult for their kids, I think they're wrong, but no way are they abusive.  They're loving, caring parents who don't trust the government.

 

Loving parents make plans to the best of their ability against things that could potentially harm their children. I suppose being under the radar is one method of protection.  If the parents were killed in a car accident, this leaves those kids without identification of any kind in a very bad place.

[Amy in NH]

I don't agree with this lady, but occasional tot spanking was very normal "discipline" not that long ago.  It reads to me like she's trying to "codify" old-fashioned discipline, trying to make it "make sense" on paper, trying to use religion to rationalize base instincts, as well as exhibiting a lack of understanding of kids.

 

[sNIP]

 

I read a statistic in an online news headline yesterday or today that stated 90% of parents have spanked their children at least once.  Don't know how accurate it is, but there you have it.

 

I agree with the rest of your post as well.

[Guest]

If two people enjoy a little spanky in the bedroom, hey, give it a go! This is America in 2015; there is no need to use religion to justify what knocks your socks off. No one cares!!

[Murphy101]

I found myself feeling sorry for Lisa today. My DS said he loved me. It's nothing new - he says it to me all the time, and I say it to him all the time. Un-coerced, randomly, because we each truly feel love for each other. Lisa, despite having 9 children, has probably never heard one of her own child profess love for here where they really meant it, rather than just saying it because it was what was expected of them. She has no idea of the joy that accompanies hearing those heartfelt words. That is just so sad.

That's actually unlikely. Children are usually born devoted and loving their parents and presuming it is returned. Even their abusive parents. I think that is the saddest thing. Real love wasted away.

[ikslo]

That's actually unlikely. Children are usually born devoted and loving their parents and presuming it is returned. Even their abusive parents. I think that is the saddest thing. Real love wasted away.

 

Different definitions of love, perhaps?  Either way, it's sad.

[Amy in NH]

Nonconsensual Consent to be beaten? 

 

Wow. 

 

Just wow.

[G5052]

Whoa. That's a lot of look.

 

And a lot of money.  Seriously.  Go look.  I can buy a lot at Target for the price of just one of their outfits.

[Murphy101]

Different definitions of love, perhaps? Either way, it's sad.

No. It is not a different definition of love. It's a fact that abused children love and adore their mamas just as much as children who aren't abused. Their love is not less genuine or less real just bc their mamas abused it.

 

We can say their mother's didn't love them or share our definition of what love is. Totally agree.

 

But the children's love is usually quite strong and true. The saddest thing is how these abusive situations sour and confuse those children's grown perception of loving relationships.

[Guest]

Nonconsensual Consent to be beaten?

 

Wow.

 

Just wow.

Truly sick.

[ktgrok]

Nonconsensual Consent to be beaten? 

 

Wow. 

 

Just wow.

 

Dear lord. That is NOT BDSM. that's abuse. Period. 

[Jasperstone]

You missed a really weird phenomenon. So glad those days seem to be in the past!

 

Ezzo, Pearl, and Gothard all spread like wildfire for the same reason -- like yourself, many new parents lack mentors and/or experience with children, so they're looking for a manual of some sort. In churches, at least, it's a sign that the prior generation is not doing its job. Nothing more biblical than older women teaching younger women how to take care of their children.

Thank God, it never made it big in Oz!

 

Well, I'm not aware of it, if it did.

 

Though, having said that, one of my friends does do mat time practice. I hope it's not from reading one of those cultic books!

[swimmermom3]

I don't know. Her religious gibberish is annoying, but common whether they are home schoolers or not. So I have to read Blahblahblah oh detail to note when reading her blog.

 

But I can tell you right now if ANYONE on my side of the family went behind my back to sneak any of my kids to live with them, I'd be near hysterical. There's a reason I have extremely little to do with my family and I don't owe anyone the details to make that decision as an adult and as a mother, not even those relatives. Given that, no, going to live in town with grandparents or aunts would NOT make me feel calmer at all. I'd handle it 100% better if they got a roommate and a crappy appartment in the bad side of town. I'd be hurt and worried, but that's normal.

 

I have a 20 year old and a 18 year old, both graduated living at home. So what? They live here because the food is good and the rent is cheap (free!) They are saving their money, holding down jobs and or going to college. Even so, if I came home one evening and found out some relative had been whispering evil about me to my kid(s) and encouraging them to move out in a no discussion, no anything - just gone manner. Yeah. I'd be very upset and very hurt and feel betrayed.

 

That's a whole other ballgame from a simple fairly normal 18 year old wants to move out and I just think it unwise timing/ situation scenario. I still might think it unwise but I wouldn't feel betrayed or lied to about it and other than stating my concerns, I'd probably help them pack and set up in new place.

 

I doubt we know the full story of either side.

 

I get what you are saying, Martha, but there are two sides and we don't really know either one. My mom has a cousin who was a sweet, naive Catholic girl who somehow ended up with the Moonies.  She met her husband there and raised her children there and forty years later, she is still there.

 

I have thought about her situation and how hard it was on my grandmother and great aunt. If my dd joined something or embraced a life that was perhaps less than healthy for my grandchildren, I can't promise anyone here, that I wouldn't interfere.

 

 

[Laura Corin]

Nonconsensual Consent to be beaten?

 

Wow.

 

Just wow.

 

Wow indeed. Is the word 'stroppy' used in the US? I think of it as a very Brit word.  

 

ETA: and he uses the words 'daft' and 'mum'.  I think he's Commonwealth rather than US.  

[Annie G]

This site http://learningdd.com   is domestic discipline not from a religious point of view.  While I can't fathom ever entering into such an agreement, it seems that Clint and Chelsea (the couple who run the site) mutually agree to it and are both happy with how it works in their marriage. In any case, it's very different from the position a child is in when parents decide to follow a first time obedience method complete with many spankings.  

 

 

[albeto.]

There are abusers everywhere, not just in those who claim Christian-affiliation.  No one is defending that at all.    That needs to be said when it starts going off the rails, as if scripture or Christianity is the reason this family had problems or didn't provide documentation.

 

The difference being when Real Faith is used to justify behavior, when the bible is used to give divine support, there exists no accountability outside social acceptance. Clearly there exist communities in which this behavior is not only acceptable, it is valued, promoted, and celebrated. You can tell people like this they're wrong all you want, but they rely on the very same foundation you do for your own argument - personal faith, personal experience, and scripture.

 

There are also atheist sickos like Dawkins.  He has professed that the 50+ year systemic abuse/rapes perpetrated by priests were "less damaging than being brought up Catholic."

I disagree physical and emotional abuse, educational neglect, and threat of eternal punishment for those who dare defy authority is morally equivalent to sharing an opinion about religion, an opinion that carries with it no consequences for those who don't agree, or disagree even publicly. I can disagree with Dawkins about this and not fear any repercussions. Alecia Pennington, and countless other victims like her, don't have that privilege. Huge difference morally speaking.

[albeto.]

How, um, timely, given that the porno "shades" flick just released this weekend has brought in like 30 million on the first weekend. 

 

Ugh.  To all of it. 

 

Did you happen to see who was most excited to see the movie?

 

 

 

 

source, Washington Post

[TranquilMind]

Did you happen to see who was most excited to see the movie?

 

 

 

 

source, Washington Post

Seems like it is inversely related to educational attainment, but who knows...

 

What a message about the values of this country. 

[Barb_]

Seems like it is inversely related to educational attainment, but who knows...

 

What a message about the values of this country.

I read it as the most traditional states where women are most likely to be oppressed.

[gardenmom5]

swimmermom3, on 15 Feb 2015 - 2:42 PM, said:swimmermom3, on 15 Feb 2015 - 2:42 PM, said:

I get what you are saying, Martha, but there are two sides and we don't really know either one. My mom has a cousin who was a sweet, naive Catholic girl who somehow ended up with the Moonies.  She met her husband there and raised her children there and forty years later, she is still there.

 

I have thought about her situation and how hard it was on my grandmother and great aunt. If my dd joined something or embraced a life that was perhaps less than healthy for my grandchildren, I can't promise anyone here, that I wouldn't interfere.

 

 

especially if that grandchild was a legal adult who ASKED (no, *begged*) for help.

 

the grandfather published his side.  alecia packed her bag, and got in his car when he was leaving and flat out refused to get out and go back in the house with her parents.  there was lots of talking to her before the grandparents left with her.  the grandparents were just having a normal day-visit up until alecia insisted on leaving with them.

[gardenmom5]

TranquilMind, on 15 Feb 2015 - 5:04 PM, said:

Seems like it is inversely related to educational attainment, but who knows...

 

What a message about the values of this country. 

and in france - they have rated it so low that 12 yos can go see it.

[Word Nerd]

I read it as the most traditional states where women are most likely to be oppressed.

 

Or the states where people are more likely to be embarrassed to get a ticket at the theater so prefer buying online ahead of time?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am a bit shocked that Utah didn't make that list considering the state usually is at the top of porn consumption per capita.