umsami Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 So, first Kayla's death. Now this. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/11/reports-3-young-muslims-slain-in-chapel-hill-shooting-n-c-man-charged/ When you read the stories, yes, they were Muslim-American kids. Yes, they were likely targeted by their neighbor because of that. But also remember please that they were American kids too. Our very best. One in dental school...who not only spent his time bringing dental supplies and care to the homeless of Raleigh, but was also trying to bring dental care to Syrian refugees in Turkey. His wife (whom he had just married in December) found out she got into dental school in December and was scheduled to start this August. Her sister was an artist and University student. One family lost two daughters. I can't imagine their grief. I can't imagine the grief of thinking OK.. my kids are doing O.K. They graduated from undergrad, got into a good professional school, just got married. They're doing good in our local community... helping the homeless. They're trying to do good for people abroad. And then they were murdered. Because of their faith. It's just heartbreaking. I saw so many posts on Facebook on how "Americans were mourning Kayla". I was too. Her letter to her parents was just heartbreaking. I'm wondering how many I'll see about Deah, Yusor, and Razan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I saw this on facebook early this morning. I am horrified anew at every step. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Oh dear. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I never reply to these but I do read them all and I want you to know that I really appreciate your posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 It is a very, very sad day. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherGoose Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 So, first Kayla's death. Now this. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/11/reports-3-young-muslims-slain-in-chapel-hill-shooting-n-c-man-charged/ When you read the stories, yes, they were Muslim-American kids. Yes, they were likely targeted by their neighbor because of that. But also remember please that they were American kids too. Our very best. One in dental school...who not only spent his time bringing dental supplies and care to the homeless of Raleigh, but was also trying to bring dental care to Syrian refugees in Turkey. His wife (whom he had just married in December) found out she got into dental school in December and was scheduled to start this August. Her sister was an artist and University student. One family lost two daughters. I can't imagine their grief. I can't imagine the grief of thinking OK.. my kids are doing O.K. They graduated from undergrad, got into a good professional school, just got married. They're doing good in our local community... helping the homeless. They're trying to do good for people abroad. And then they were murdered. Because of their faith. It's just heartbreaking. I saw so many posts on Facebook on how "Americans were mourning Kayla". I was too. Her letter to her parents was just heartbreaking. I'm wondering how many I'll see about Deah, Yusor, and Razan. RE: bolded. This is the first I've heard about this incident, but I do read clearly in the article that the police are investigating whether or not it may be related to their faith, but that it seems to be over a dispute about parking. The police, according to the article, have NOT determined whether or not it was related to their faith. I would quote the sentences in the article but I don't think I'm supposed to do that... This is not something I have looked at anywhere but this article, so if other determinations have been made, I haven't seen them. Regardless, it's terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 RE: bolded. This is the first I've heard about this incident, but I do read clearly in the article that the police are investigating whether or not it may be related to their faith, but that it seems to be over a dispute about parking. The police, according to the article, have NOT determined whether or not it was related to their faith. I would quote the sentences in the article but I don't think I'm supposed to do that... This is not something I have looked at anywhere but this article, so if other determinations have been made, I haven't seen them. Regardless, it's terrible. MaryAnnA...friends of mine know the family. There had been many issues with this neighbor before because of their faith. Their faith was an issue for him. I don't care what the newspapers say. The two girls wore hijab and were visibly Muslim. This man ranted about Muslims on his Facebook page as well. You don't shoot three people in the head....execute them....over a parking spot. I know it's uncomfortable for people to accept that all the anti-Muslim speech that runs rampant in the US has consequences, but it does. The anti-Muslim incidents tripled after "American Sniper" came out. . Anti-Muslim crap is said by politicians all the time....by newscasters and pundits....all the time....without regard for its consequences....and has been since 9/11. Well, last night, we saw some of those consequences....the death of three young people who had their lives ahead of them. OK...found this....http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2015/02/11/5508121/victims-father-says-chapel-hill.html#.VNuTGIcmREd ""But the women’s father, Dr. Mohammad Abu-Salha, who has a psychiatry practice in Clayton, said regardless of the precise trigger Tuesday night, Hicks’ underlying animosity toward Barakat and Abu-Salha was based on their religion and culture. Abu-Salha said police told him Hicks shot the three inside their apartment. “It was execution style, a bullet in every head,†Abu-Salha said Wednesday morning. “This was not a dispute over a parking space; this was a hate crime. This man had picked on my daughter and her husband a couple of times before, and he talked with them with his gun in his belt. And they were uncomfortable with him, but they did not know he would go this far.†Abu-Salha said his daughter who lived next door to Hicks wore a Muslim head scarf and told her family a week ago that she had “a hateful neighbor.†“Honest to God, she said, ‘He hates us for what we are and how we look,’†he said." I've seen it first hand, too. I've had people pound on my window at a traffic light and told me to go back to where I came from. I've had people verbally assault me on the street, while I'm with my young children. I had a guy park at the end of my driveway and rant and rave at me in my own freakin' neighborhood. I took off my hijab in November after the FBI showed up at numerous mosques here to warn us about the increase in anti-Muslim chat in white supremacy and other sites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 So sad. So senseless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttichen Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I know it's uncomfortable for people to accept that all the anti-Muslim speech that runs rampant in the US has consequences, but it does. The anti-Muslim incidents tripled after "American Sniper" came out. . Anti-Muslim crap is said by politicians all the time....by newscasters and pundits....all the time....without regard for its consequences....and has been since 9/11. Well, last night, we saw some of those consequences....the death of three young people who had their lives ahead of them. I am very sorry about this tragedy and also about the discrimination you and others have faced, but I am wondering what specifically you mean here. Do you mean newscasters and politicians who refer to ISIS as "radical Muslim extremists"? I guess I am wondering how you would handle things if you were speaking publicly about it. ISIS refers to itself as the "Islamic State." Are we not supposed to mention that? Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? Our president acts as though these acts were random and lectures us on things done 1,000 years ago in the name of religion. The fact is, ISIS is kidnapping and murdering people now in the name of Islam. Do we have to stick our heads in the sand and not acknowledge that to avoid stirring up evil nuts like this guy in North Carolina? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? I have heard Muslim leaders condemn terrorists. Every couple of weeks I hear or see a tiny blurb from a leader of a mosque or Muslim group in a story about a terrorist act. The media doesn't focus on nonextremist Muslims making statements. I think the focus of the terrorist reporting makes the message of the extremist groups much louder than any condemnation. We are so horrified by the events and the amplification of the events on the news that we can't hear what some of own neighbors who happen to be Muslim are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am very sorry about this tragedy and also about the discrimination you and others have faced, but I am wondering what specifically you mean here. Do you mean newscasters and politicians who refer to ISIS as "radical Muslim extremists"? I guess I am wondering how you would handle things if you were speaking publicly about it. ISIS refers to itself as the "Islamic State." Are we not supposed to mention that? Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? Our president acts as though these acts were random and lectures us on things done 1,000 years ago in the name of religion. The fact is, ISIS is kidnapping and murdering people now in the name of Islam. Do we have to stick our heads in the sand and not acknowledge that to avoid stirring up evil nuts like this guy in North Carolina? I am not Umsami, but I would not consider talking about ISIS as anti-Muslim rhetoric. But I have seen examples of: i) Communities campaigning against local Muslim groups building mosques. ii) Local communities claiming that somehow teaching about Islam and what it believes in a world history class is indoctrination into Islam. I am specifically not referring to having students say a prayer or memorize Koran passages (which I do consider religious indoctrination), but rather to learning factual material about the religion -- similarly to discussing Christianity and Christian beliefs, while discussing the Roman Empire under Constantine or similar historical places where Christianity played a role. iii) Claiming that somehow halal food is unfit for non-Muslims to eat and attempting to get companies to stop manufacturing and selling halal food. (This showed up more in Australia, but some in the US as well -- example: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/10/campbells-soup-goes-halal-with-approval-from-hamas-linked-isna). Here's a list giving more examples of the kind of anti-Muslim rhetoric: http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/the-right-wing-playbook-anti-muslim-extremism (Yes, it's a left-wing site. But they link to the statements for everything they're talking about). This sort of rhetoric (especially the ones who want to propose laws against a specific religion) does considerable damage as far as alienating young Muslims. It feeds into the religious extremists and fuels the paranoia about the west being out to eliminate them and their religion, making recruitment of young, disaffected men easier. As far as "Why don't moderate Muslims denounce the extremists?" They do. Here's a WashPo article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/02/why-dont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/ (again, yes, left-wing, but sources are cited if you do not believe what they are saying). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am very sorry about this tragedy and also about the discrimination you and others have faced, but I am wondering what specifically you mean here. Do you mean newscasters and politicians who refer to ISIS as "radical Muslim extremists"? I guess I am wondering how you would handle things if you were speaking publicly about it. ISIS refers to itself as the "Islamic State." Are we not supposed to mention that? Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? Our president acts as though these acts were random and lectures us on things done 1,000 years ago in the name of religion. The fact is, ISIS is kidnapping and murdering people now in the name of Islam. Do we have to stick our heads in the sand and not acknowledge that to avoid stirring up evil nuts like this guy in North Carolina? Muttichen...I don't call them radical Muslim extremists, I call them extremist crazies if you must know because what they believe is quite far from Islam... and many Islamic scholars have called them out on that before. (See http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com) I actually prefer Daesh because they hate that, but that's just me. If people call them Muslim Extremists, that's fine. As for "our president lecturing us"....wow, your politics come through. Are you aware of the first off, Christians have done crappy stuff in the name of religion far more recent than the Crusades. It doesn't negate the crappy things that Muslims do, but pretending that Christians don't do bad things....equally as bad...is dangerous. Even in this country. good Christian Southerners burned black men alive....called spectacular lynchings....in the 20th century. They publicized it too, just like ISIS....with postcards and newspaper articles. Not thousands of years ago. http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/yes-isis-burned-man-alive-white-americans-did-same-thing-thousands-black-people Christianity was often given as the reason for segregation here. "In his "Segregation Now" speech, George Wallace invokes God 27 times and calls the federal government opposing him "a system that is the very opposite of Christ." There was the Bosnian war...which saw Christians rape Muslim women and murder their husbands. There was Rwanda...that implicated the Christian church as well. ​There was Northern Ireland...and the fight between Protestants and Catholics...which saw lots of bombings and murders. I can go on. Sadly, no religion has a monopoly on peace or violence. Even the Buddhists are tormenting the Rohingya people as we speak in Burma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Sadly, no religion has a monopoly on peace or violence. Even the Buddhists are tormenting the Rohingya people as we speak in Burma. And as we've just seen, extremists without a religion can be dangerous as well. The real enemy is extremist viewpoints -- the sort of black-and-white thinking that leads to "The only good ____ is a dead ____" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Hate crime. How unbelievably tragic for these families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Thank you for posting this. I did not know about it. So much sad news. It doesn't matter if they were Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, or whatever. It is a tragedy for our country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I was just reading this story in the news with tears in my eyes before seeing it posted here. Absolutely sickening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 ...You don't shoot three people in the head....execute them....over a parking spot. ... Unfortunately, this isn't true. People do kill people over things like this (and other complete nonsense). I'm not saying he was not motivated to do it because of their religion... he may have been, but it could have been something stupid like a parking space. Either way, it's completely tragic and I feel terribly for the victims and their families. That man is truly evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? Which ones do you mean in particular? Many Muslim leaders and organizations have spoken out very strongly. I kept hearing what you said repeated, and I did a little research, finding that Muslim leaders have spoken out quite aggressively. I think those statements just haven't been given much coverage in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? They do. Perhaps you need to do your part and hear them. (Not they they should have to. I never apologise when an Australian crazy kills someone. I never apologise when a pagan, atheist or person named Rosie kills anyone either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am in NC and have been following this story. It just makes me so angry. The First Amendment Rights need to be read again and followed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am in NC and have been following this story. It just makes me so angry. The First Amendment Rights need to be read again and followed! I don't follow. Can you explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomtoCandJ Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Prayers for all the families involved :( Whatever happened to "do unto others as you would have done unto you"? I mean people really need to stop and think how they would feel if whatever was done to them. Be it bullying or killing others just because you don't like their faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am very sorry about this tragedy and also about the discrimination you and others have faced, but I am wondering what specifically you mean here. Do you mean newscasters and politicians who refer to ISIS as "radical Muslim extremists"? I guess I am wondering how you would handle things if you were speaking publicly about it. ISIS refers to itself as the "Islamic State." Are we not supposed to mention that? Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? Our president acts as though these acts were random and lectures us on things done 1,000 years ago in the name of religion. The fact is, ISIS is kidnapping and murdering people now in the name of Islam. Do we have to stick our heads in the sand and not acknowledge that to avoid stirring up evil nuts like this guy in North Carolina? I think you're trivializing the issue here, and focusing on one element (rejecting the "no true Scotsman" defense) as if it were the brunt of the issue. While I agree with you that this defense is illogical and therefore unreasonable, it would be negligent in a most tragic way to assume that's the only, or even the biggest variable going on here. Human behavior is just so complex, there are so many variables that contribute to one individual's personality. Religious inspirations are never isolated, but are intimately intertwined with cultural issues like politics and justice, and that's not taking into account the internal environment of an individual (more or less aggressive, for example). The fact is, we don't know what all contributed to the man's behavior, but it does seam more than reasonable to assume a visceral fear and hatred of Islam was an integral component. It's also important to realize the subtle, and not so subtle support and reinforcement of this fear and hatred inspired by supposedly unrelated, unbiased elements (like news reporters and Hollywood movies). A president working to reduce tensions by refusing to incite the fear and hatred is a good thing. There's no reason for him to stir up the hornet's nest more. He's fighting ideas, and against ideas, bullets and missiles don't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomeontheprairie Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I don't follow. Can you explain? Freedom of religion. You don't have the right to shoot someone because their beliefs are different than your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Freedom of religion. You don't have the right to shoot someone because their beliefs are different than your own. The 1st Amendment refers to Congress not making laws impeding the free exercise of religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Re: Muslims denouncing ISIS...or terrorism....or extremism.... the numbers are too great to mention (start by the document I listed above, LettertoBaghdadi.com) . Google is your friend. Just as numerous Muslims denounce terrorism whenever it happens and have since 9/11. Heck, my beef with people like CAIR is that they make a big deal about terrorism against non-Muslims, but not as much of a big deal about terrorism against Muslims (although that slightly changed with Boko Haram.) To give you an idea how bad these guys are, even Al Qaeda and Hezbollah have denounced ISIS as being too extreme. Sigh. There are also Muslim organizations working to help converts/reverts from being radicalized. There are ex-extremists like Maajid Nawaz who work within their community to fight it. And it goes on and on and on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 The 1st Amendment refers to Congress not making laws impeding the free exercise of religion. Here is the text: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 It is very, very common for people to refer to their "first amendment rights," meaning the rights they are guaranteed, which are enumerated (by implication) in the First Amendment. I think that's what the other poster meant: society, including the killer, need a reminder of the rights guaranteed to us in the Bill of Rights. OP, this really makes me heartsick. I'm so sad for us, for your friends, for their families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TianXiaXueXiao Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Tragic and heartbreaking. May God have mercy on us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagsWife Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 The guy's FB page showed that he was anti-ANY religion, pro-Obama, pro-gay rights, anti-Romney, pro-Obamacare, pro-gun, and pro-Disney. I would say that if the parking issues were exasperated because of religion...it was NOT because they were Muslim, but because they were religious at all. The three people killed could have been nuns, Baptist missionaries, Buddhist...anything and he would have done the same thing. It goes to show that no matter what viewpoint we are talking about, there are extremist for all of them. OR again...maybe he was mentally ill, and we need to take a really good look at how our country deals with mental illness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagsWife Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 A link to his FB page: https://www.facebook.com/craig.hicks.967 A link to his "About" page: https://www.facebook.com/craig.hicks.967/about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 A link to his FB page: https://www.facebook.com/craig.hicks.967 A link to his "About" page: https://www.facebook.com/craig.hicks.967/about FB has taken down his pages. ETA: I guess I'm the only one who can't access them. Then again, did I need to? Not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagsWife Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 FB has taken down his pages. They are still coming up for me. I used a link that the NY Times posted. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/12/us/muslim-student-shootings-north-carolina.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The guy's FB page showed that he was anti-ANY religion, pro-Obama, pro-gay rights, anti-Romney, pro-Obamacare, pro-gun, and pro-Disney. I would say that if the parking issues were exasperated because of religion...it was NOT because they were Muslim, but because they were religious at all. The three people killed could have been nuns, Baptist missionaries, Buddhist...anything and he would have done the same thing. It goes to show that no matter what viewpoint we are talking about, there are extremist for all of them. OR again...maybe he was mentally ill, and we need to take a really good look at how our country deals with mental illness. I totally agree. In fact, I just said the exact thing to DH a few minutes ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 FB has taken down his pages. They just came up for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 So, first Kayla's death. Now this. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/11/reports-3-young-muslims-slain-in-chapel-hill-shooting-n-c-man-charged/ When you read the stories, yes, they were Muslim-American kids. Yes, they were likely targeted by their neighbor because of that. But also remember please that they were American kids too. Our very best. One in dental school...who not only spent his time bringing dental supplies and care to the homeless of Raleigh, but was also trying to bring dental care to Syrian refugees in Turkey. His wife (whom he had just married in December) found out she got into dental school in December and was scheduled to start this August. Her sister was an artist and University student. One family lost two daughters. I can't imagine their grief. I can't imagine the grief of thinking OK.. my kids are doing O.K. They graduated from undergrad, got into a good professional school, just got married. They're doing good in our local community... helping the homeless. They're trying to do good for people abroad. And then they were murdered. Because of their faith. It's just heartbreaking. I saw so many posts on Facebook on how "Americans were mourning Kayla". I was too. Her letter to her parents was just heartbreaking. I'm wondering how many I'll see about Deah, Yusor, and Razan. There are some sick, hateful people out there in the world. This is so horrible. What's wrong with people today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Just to address this issue... anecdotally, I have many, many Muslim friends from my time living in the Middle East. They are constantly posting on FB against the horrors of ISIS, sharing in the horrible death of Kayla Meuller, this current tragedy etc. etc. Their leaders are speaking out as well, but it barely gets any news coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you click on the second video in this link, you can watch the interview from a neighbor who said this man was nasty to pretty much everyone (over parking and noise). It was so bad that a neighborhood meeting was held over his behavior: http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/11/4547742_chapel-hill-police-arrest-man.html?rh=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 OR again...maybe he was mentally ill, and we need to take a really good look at how our country deals with mental illness. Of course, he's mentally ill. He's a white guy with a gun who killed three people. They always are mentally ill when that happens. Problem is, people who are Muslim or brown and do the same thing are never mentally ill. Muslims are always terrorists and their religion is always the cause of everything bad they do. Brown and black people are always guilty too. Still waiting for the NRA to say that if they had all been armed this never would have happened....but they never say that when a Muslim person is killed. They don't want more Muslim-Americans with guns.... just as they don't want more black people with guns. Imagine if it had been the other way around. Would there even be any discussion of motive or mental illness? He was a gun nut. He used his guns to intimidate and then he used them to kill three kids. He did not like his Muslim neighbors. So he executed them....all three of them. He did not kill any of the other neighbors he may or may not have had issues with. He did not shoot each one of them in the head. He killed the Muslim kids. It wasn't over a parking spot. Did you know that Deah had just gotten off a bus? How does that affect a parking space? Here's a piece written by Yusor's best friend. They were friends since third grade. http://fusion.net/story/47569/chapel-hill-shooting-my-best-friend-was-killed-and-i-dont-know-why/ "I know that he’s an aggressive man. That’s not the first we’ve heard from him. Hicks was their neighbor. In October or November, we went to dinner at Yusor and Deah’s house. Right after we left, Yusor heard a knock at the door and it was Hicks. She told us he was angry and said we were noisy and there were two extra cars in the neighborhood. We used visitor parking but he was still mad. He said we woke up his wife. It wasn’t that dark yet. It wasn’t late. And it wasn’t that loud. We were playing a board game called Risk. I mean, I know I was mad because they were beating me at the game, but that was it. While he was at the door talking to Yusor, he was holding a rifle, she told me later. He didn’t point it at anyone, but he still had it. Yusor called to check on us after we left, to make sure he hadn’t approached us. We thought that was so weird—our neighbors don’t come to the door with guns! So when I heard the news it was shocking, but it wasn’t a surprise that it was the neighbor. When I heard the news report and drove down there from Raleigh, I hoped it wasn’t anyone I knew. But I saw the apartment on the news and it was his apartment. If it wasn’t a hate crime, what was it? If you have a problem with your neighbors, you write a letter; you don’t shoot people. I think they were targeted because they were different. He was always so annoyed with them for little things. They are talking about a parking dispute online—that’s definitely not true. There’s plenty of space, and Deah had just gotten off the bus. I wonder if he just thought Deah was some white guy before his wife moved in." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomeontheprairie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The 1st Amendment refers to Congress not making laws impeding the free exercise of religion. Yes. Laws can't prohibit you from practicing your religion. And people who don't like it (others religion), still need to obey the law (and not shoot them). To remember the first amendment rights (in casual conversation here) is to remind us that others have the same constitutional rights. Regardless of.... race, gender, religion, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 From his Facebook cover photo: Of course I want religion to go away. I don't deny your right to believe whatever you'd like; but I have a right to point out it's ignorant and dangerous for as long as your baseless superstitions keep killing people. ANTI-THEISM: the consciencious objection to religion. (from Atheists for Equality) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 RE: bolded. This is the first I've heard about this incident, but I do read clearly in the article that the police are investigating whether or not it may be related to their faith, but that it seems to be over a dispute about parking. The police, according to the article, have NOT determined whether or not it was related to their faith. I would quote the sentences in the article but I don't think I'm supposed to do that... This is not something I have looked at anywhere but this article, so if other determinations have been made, I haven't seen them. Regardless, it's terrible. Something that is worth pointing out is that, at least as of this morning (been away from the computer all day), UK papers were printing the stuff from his Facebook account which is very anti-religion. US papers were not mentioning that. I assume their reporters are as capable of finding a Facebook account as UK reporters. There is nothing on his FB page that is indicative of mental illness, as far as I read. He's an atheist of the sort who believes religion is harmful and there are plenty of posts about that; he's got pretty mainstream Democratic political views; he posts cute cat videos and writes about his cat; and he calls his wife his better half. No rants, at least from as far as I scrolled. ETA: the lawyer for his wfie, who I believe was in the process of divorcing him, did indicate mental illness, but not what kind. The parking lot dispute was apparently a trigger, but from his religious posting on FB, there was quite a bit of superior/us vs.superstitious them views about religion posted on FB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Of course, he's mentally ill. He's a white guy with a gun who killed three people. They always are mentally ill when that happens. Problem is, people who are Muslim or brown and do the same thing are never mentally ill. Muslims are always terrorists and their religion is always the cause of everything bad they do. Brown and black people are always guilty too. Still waiting for the NRA to say that if they had all been armed this never would have happened....but they never say that when a Muslim person is killed. They don't want more Muslim-Americans with guns.... just as they don't want more black people with guns. Imagine if it had been the other way around. Would there even be any discussion of motive or mental illness? He was a gun nut. He used his guns to intimidate and then he used them to kill three kids. He did not like his Muslim neighbors. So he executed them....all three of them. He did not kill any of the other neighbors he may or may not have had issues with. He did not shoot each one of them in the head. He killed the Muslim kids. It wasn't over a parking spot. Did you know that Deah had just gotten off a bus? How does that affect a parking space? Here's a piece written by Yusor's best friend. They were friends since third grade. http://fusion.net/story/47569/chapel-hill-shooting-my-best-friend-was-killed-and-i-dont-know-why/ Honestly, umsami, I think you are being quite presumptuous about what people would or would not be saying if this horrible man wasn't a white guy. I haven't heard a single report that said anything but negative things about him, and no one seems to be trying to excuse anything he said or did. Everyone seems horrified, disgusted, and saddened about what happened. Also, I know you believe this was all about him being anti-Muslim, but the fact seems to be that he hated all religion, so he could very well have chosen to shoot almost anyone he met over a parking space... or for whatever else was irritating him at the moment he snapped. Frankly, I think it is horrible that three people are dead because of that lunatic, and I don't care at all what religion they were. I care that three innocent people were brutally murdered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you click on the second video in this link, you can watch the interview from a neighbor who said this man was nasty to pretty much everyone (over parking and noise). It was so bad that a neighborhood meeting was held over his behavior: http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/11/4547742_chapel-hill-police-arrest-man.html?rh=1 I think the guy was filled with rage, and he might very well have shot different people had they been in that same place at the same time. I guess we will never really know for sure, unless he makes a direct statement about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The guy's FB page showed that he was anti-ANY religion, pro-Obama, pro-gay rights, anti-Romney, pro-Obamacare, pro-gun, and pro-Disney. I would say that if the parking issues were exasperated because of religion...it was NOT because they were Muslim, but because they were religious at all. The three people killed could have been nuns, Baptist missionaries, Buddhist...anything and he would have done the same thing. It goes to show that no matter what viewpoint we are talking about, there are extremist for all of them. OR again...maybe he was mentally ill, and we need to take a really good look at how our country deals with mental illness. This is true that he said those things about all religions... but it's also true that a few people in the atheist movement have a particular dislike of Muslims and have even said numerous times things to the effect that Islam is the most dangerous religion. The fact that he was an outspoken atheist who said things about disliking all religions doesn't mean that he didn't have much deeper prejudices against Muslims. It's so hard to sort out exactly what to think about this. I think it was likely over all the neighbor disputes that the media is beginning to report on... and that their religion fed into that on every level. It likely made him hypercritical of everything they did that annoyed him and made it impossible for him to reach any compromise over trivial things. It doesn't seem to have been a planned killing from what they're saying so far (that may change, certainly) - the fact that he shot them in their apartment doesn't mean that he didn't go over there to complain again and then snap. If so, it wasn't the revenge execution that people were speculating initially. I think it's likely the more deadly mix of unbalanced people, influenced by bias and hate, who have guns and find excuses to use them. Women, blacks, Latinos, Muslims, and others are all the victims of this violent mix way too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I am very sorry about this tragedy and also about the discrimination you and others have faced, but I am wondering what specifically you mean here. Do you mean newscasters and politicians who refer to ISIS as "radical Muslim extremists"? I guess I am wondering how you would handle things if you were speaking publicly about it. ISIS refers to itself as the "Islamic State." Are we not supposed to mention that? Why don't Muslim leaders more clearly condemn the terrorists? ,.... [eliminated the political part of this post] The fact is, ISIS is kidnapping and murdering people now in the name of Islam. Do we have to stick our heads in the sand and not acknowledge that to avoid stirring up evil nuts like this guy in North Carolina? I am glad so many people have provided you links to Muslims condemning acts of terrorism. The problem is with the lack of emphasis in reporting, not with the lack of condemnation. Da'esh may call itself the Islamic State, but it is essentially a criminal organization married to a cult. I know Christians living in the Middle East and they do not talk about ISIS/Da'esh, IS as Muslim. It is nothing like their Muslim neighbors. It's barbaric, uncivilized, evil, criminal, and uses religion in the same way cults use religion--to recruit and control. Da'esh has killed more Muslims than any other religious group. I am a Christian, conservative theologically. I am aware that the Westboro Baptist Church does things in the name of CHristianity that I find abhorrent. I am aware that the Lord's Resistance Army claims to be Christian and has been involved in killing, kidnapping, child sex-slavery, forcing children to be soldiers, etc. Sound familiar? Not the LRA, as that was not particularly widely reported in western news, but the list of atrocities? The Norwegian guy who shot 77 unarmed teenagers claimed to be Christian. As a member of the Christian community, I believe I have both a right and a responsibility to say these things are not Christian. Muslims have a right to say Daesh/ISIS/IS is not Muslim in the same way. I think we have to play by the same rules. If I want the Christian community to have the right to say that X is not, in fact, Christian (and I do) , then I need to give Muslims the right to say that Y is not Islam. Even if not for reasons of fairness, it's just plain in our own self-interest to make sure that we don't contribute to the idea that ISIS is somehow a legitimate manifestation of Islam. It is Muslims who will take down Da-esh . They certainly have the motivation to do so. Daesh is recruiting their kids into its cult, slaughtering huge numbers of Muslims, and has even been condemned by Al Queda. It actually plays right into the propaganda of Da-esh when Americans talk as if Daesh/ISIS is Muslim. "Woot! Woot" from the ISIS pov. Their PR work is being done by none other that US citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Yes. Laws can't prohibit you from practicing your religion. And people who don't like it (others religion), still need to obey the law (and not shoot them). My confusion arises from the fact that no law was passed by Congress that would have inhibited the victims from their free expression of religion. To remember the first amendment rights (in casual conversation here) is to remind us that others have the same constitutional rights. Regardless of.... race, gender, religion, etc. Okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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