Haiku Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 And "asked and answered" is developmentally inappropriate for a 16 year old. No, it's not. When teenagers refuse to accept a parent's explanations simply because it's not what they want to hear, "asked and answered" is entirely appropriate. My teen used to beat a topic into the ground regardless of how often we explained our reasons. We resorted to "asked and answered" on many occasions. She didn't want to understand our (good) reasons. She wanted us to change our minds. Nothin' doin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 :svengo: This is all assuming a 16-yo is thinking exactly like his mom. I did not think like my mom at 16. I still don't at 45. :huh: I just don't get this way of thinking- probably because I was the recipient of it growing up and it is not at all how I operate as aparent. WHile I might agree that a 17yo going on vacation w a 14yo isn;t the best idea (assuming they;re even still together then) who knows what he's thinking? It is insulting to him to assume that he has nefarious plans to 'tear up the hotel room' with her when all he;s thinking might be "Cool! I hear Whatzit Beach has an AWESOME Maritime museum! Maybe I'll get to go deep-sea fishing, too!" Just to be clear, I do not believe my son is looking at this as an opportunity to have his own personal girls gone wild weekend. I do think he is generally a good person with honorable intentions. And I am sure he is thinking how great it will be to have all that time together. Swimming, beach party, family dinners with a family that is way cooler then his family. He is 16. As responsible and mature as he is he is not a parent and he is still a bit short on life experiences and lacks the ability to think of all the possibilities. The truth of the matter is he does not want to know or admit to those other possibilities. To acknowledge them would be admitting that I am not a stupid witch whose only purpose is to ruin his good time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_NC Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 "No. Trust me, one day you'll understand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think you're naive and don't understand the neuroscience of sex. I'm certainly not saying his desire to be with her is consciously all about sex, but if you don't think the subconscious need to have sex and companionship isn't figuring prominently into his emotional need to go on this trip, you're naive. And we all have hormones, whether we live in your idealized "holistic" life or not. I'm going to agree with the sentiment behind this. Yes... teens are more than just their hormones. But they have errors in thinking because they're teens--- and have a lot going on developmentally (and hormonally) speaking. And they don't always make the best decisions. We have expectations of them because we want the best for them and want them to grow into decent, kind adults. We kind of act as their frontal lobes for awhile I think. By 16/17 we've hopefully been working on getting them to use their own (even though they aren't fully developed). We want them to start thinking for themselves... but they are awash in hormones and their thinking can be muddled. It is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristi26 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I haven't really thought this through, but I would be uncomfortable with the idea of her parents thinking this is a great idea to begin with. (Oh, and you can say no for no good reason other than you think it's the right answer.) I question whether her parents really DO think this is a good idea. It's entirely possible that they are the parents who said "yes" first in hopes and expectations that you will say "no" and be the bad guy. These parents do exist. I have some friends who ARE these parents. To answer the OP, I would not allow it. I would tell my son why I am concerned and why it's a resounding no and then we'd move on with life. Of course, my giant drama king would huff and puff about it awhile so moving on would take some time, but still... ;) And if he continued with his dramatic huffing over it, I would tell him that we could discuss it with his father when he got home from work since his dad and I are a team and don't generally make decisions alone (though to be fair, I don't even have to ask his dad on this one, I know DH would say no, lol). Also, summer is quite far away. How long have they been together? What are the odds that two teenagers are going to stay together for five or six more months? By then, their relationship may have run its course. Hope this helps somehow! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 If there were any alternate universe where this situation were a good idea, how it would have gone down is the girl's parents would have contacted you guys privately to discuss it, not gotten your son all worked up about it before bothering to ask you. Now they look like the cool parents and you get to look like the mean, responsible ones. Another reason to have concerns about these parents. Ahh yes, THIS! :iagree: Major events- anything beyond a regular local event or sleepover/birthday party is best handled by adults checking with the other parents first. When we invited a female friend for my daughter to go along on vacation, we talked to the parents first before inviting the girl. For goodness sakes- when Diamond invited a life-long family friend to escort her to her Senior Prom we asked the parents first as we knew they did not allow him to date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Are you 100% sure her parents DO think this is a good idea? Based on the comment that you've only had one 15 min conversation with the father (and it didn't sound like it was on this topic), it sounds like the only information you have comes from the teens. Could this be some wishful thinking on the part of the girlfriend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Just because nobody has asked: I see that he is 16 and will be 17 by the summer. But you also said she will be 14...is she 14 yet? Or is she 13 right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Ahh yes, THIS! :iagree: Major events- anything beyond a regular local event or sleepover/birthday party is best handled by adults checking with the other parents first. When we invited a female friend for my daughter to go along on vacation, we talked to the parents first before inviting the girl. For goodness sakes- when Diamond invited a life-long family friend to escort her to her Senior Prom we asked the parents first as we knew they did not allow him to date. My head just exploded. 18?? To a senior prom which is very near graduation?? If the girl's parents have to ask his parents' permission for him to date their daughter, either the young people are not old enough to date or something is wrong with his parents. I think. I realize there are cultural differences in the world. But this, on top of other remarks in the thread, have me sitting here fascinated. I left home at just-turned-17 (having graduated from high school early). I guess I'm wondering what makes all these teens submit to this level of control. I say that as a pretty strict parent whose very conservative and religious sons rarely date, so it's not like I'm the one in the mini-skirt at the Harper Valley PTA meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'm with the other posters who say that if it were really an okay idea, her parents would have made the overtures toward you, and you'd have a closer relationship with her parents. I think it's perfectly fine for you to say that you don't know her parents well enough to consider it at this time but you'll revisit things in a few months. By then, the relationship may have run its course, or you may have gotten to know her and her parents better, and it may be clear that it's a serious relationship, in which case, maybe you might feel differently. But they've only been dating a few months; that's not enough time to know how this one will turn out. I also agree with the PP who says that going in a long vacation together suggests a level of intimacy (and I agree that that doesn't necessarily mean sex) that is inappropriate for kids their age who haven't been dating very long. I'm trying to remember. . . DH and I started dating when we were 16 and 14. I'm sure it wasn't what my parents would have wanted and they certainly didn't encourage me to date that young. (Actually, I say "dating," but we weren't allowed to go out on dates alone for a while, even though he could drive.). But y'know, it happened that way, and there are worse things than serious teen relationships. (Twenty-three years and five babies later, it's obvious that it worked out fine, and we didn't have any babies in high school or college or any chance of having them then.). Even though I think everyone knew it was going to last, even pretty early on, it was still a couple of years before we were invited to each other's family holiday gatherings or other important events like that. I know his parents took me along to visit him at college a couple of times (with a LOT of supervision -- but my parents trusted his to supervise, and they all knew each other well and were in agreement about things), so I would have been 16 and 17, then, him 18 and 19, a good two years after we started dating. I remember going with them all on a long weekend vacation. . . I can't remember exactly how old I was, but I know he was in college, don't remember if I was. So I'd have been somewhere between 17 and 19. At that point, it was appropriate to bring the girlfriend along. But not at 14 and 16 after only a few months of dating and with parents who didn't know each other well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_NC Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 OP, your son sounds like a wonderful young man and my comments are not a reflection on him at all. I could see this trip happening *if* you knew the parents and had a long-standing relationship with them. But there are some serious red flags here and I think you are right in following your gut instinct - sometimes our age and experience gives us the ability to see around corners that teens don't even consider. As the parent of a teen girl, my first impression is that this girl's parents aren't respecting or acknowledging some basic boundaries. Things like their 14 year old with a 17 year old. And not touching base with you before inviting your son on their vacation. It would make me wonder about how they handle other issues. And honestly? It would be really odd for you to say yes without knowing who your son would be with for that week. If it were me, and this is something that might last, I would invite the parents to dinner and get to know them. Maybe they are fabulous people who have an open door policy into their lives - or maybe there's something not right here. Maybe you could tell your son that the trip is off the table for now, but you would like to get to know his girlfriend's family. There's a certain way these family relationships usually progress (we've been through it a few times) and there seem to be some steps missed in this one. Major admiration and respect for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Just because nobody has asked: I see that he is 16 and will be 17 by the summer. But you also said she will be 14...is she 14 yet? Or is she 13 right now? She is 14. She had just turned 14 when they started dating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'd write down my reasons if I could not remain calm. I would admit that I had to write them down because it was an emotional issue and request that the conversation be conducted that way, out of respect for my inability to discuss it rationally in words even though I had good reasons. If 17/14 is the age of statutory rape in your state, you're making the right decision. Still, I don't think the other parents are trying to make you the bad guy. This might be the norm for them and it's easy to forget just how different families are. This is beside the fact that you haven't talked about it with them. I would call them, to be honest, and let them know what's going on--"A three-week vacation with a young woman is not something we're going to facilitate, and though we trust our son we're concerned about the age difference." Be totally forthright and honest with them and you may find that they are actually nice people who really hadn't thought of this, or maybe they didn't even plan on having your son anyway and this is all the girls' doing. My step-daughter and her friends discuss everything to death before they ask us, then we're all the bad guys. Oh well. ETA--in my state, 17/14 is not a statutory rape situation. It's high school dating. Sex is only statutory rape when there is a 4+ year difference between the kids of 14/15, or a three year difference between a child of 12/13. This is explicitly stated and it is clearly to make it impossible for a high school boy to get accused of statutory rape simply by dating a girl in his own school (obviously regular rape is a different question). It is not a huge deal, particularly not Junior/Freshman dating. I think Dirty Ethel Rackham is right about the emotional question though. It's too much, too soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_NC Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I realize there are cultural differences in the world. But this, on top of other remarks in the thread, have me sitting here fascinated. I left home at just-turned-17 (having graduated from high school early). I guess I'm wondering what makes all these teens submit to this level of control. Tibbie, My daughter has several different groups of friends and the social norms differ for each one. One group of parents could care less and would probably laugh if I tried to mediate a dance date. The other would be highly offended if the parents did not touch base first. It really depends on the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craftymama Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I wouldn't be willing to send my child on a vacation with a family I don't know. I would not entrust the well being of my child with people I don't know. Things happen...car accidents, pool accidents, trips, falls, fights. I remember the fights I had with my boyfriend when I was fifteen. It seems you don't know the parents well enough to know their position on supervision, curfews, medication, or other important things. Even if you trust your son completely and firmly believe there is no way he might give into hormones or urges given the opportunity, you don't know the parents enough to trust them with your son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_NC Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 On second thought, I would probably invite the mom to lunch or to coffee first before planning a family dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think you're naive and don't understand the neuroscience of sex. I'm pretty sure Joanne, *our Joanne* understands the neuroscience of sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 And "asked and answered" is developmentally inappropriate for a 16 year old. Leaving behind the bizarre, outmoded idea of teen aged boys being essentially flesh bags of mostly hormones fueled by blind instincts, this is a really important point. It may be effective in that it might stop the conversation, but what other message does it convey? In my experience, it conveys the message that mom is not open to discussions concerning issues that are highly personal, or potentially difficult, even if they are important. In other words, it's best to leave mom out of this part of my life. "Asked and answered" would be effective in that respect, but that's probably not serving the long-term interests of the OP, or her desires for her son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 My head just exploded. 18?? To a senior prom which is very near graduation?? If the girl's parents have to ask his parents' permission for him to date their daughter, either the young people are not old enough to date or something is wrong with his parents. I think. I realize there are cultural differences in the world. But this, on top of other remarks in the thread, have me sitting here fascinated. I left home at just-turned-17 (having graduated from high school early). I guess I'm wondering what makes all these teens submit to this level of control. I say that as a pretty strict parent whose very conservative and religious sons rarely date, so it's not like I'm the one in the mini-skirt at the Harper Valley PTA meetings. I know two families whose actions regarding their adult children often have me shaking my head. One has a 19 year old daughter who is not allowed to drive. The daughter has no developmental or cognitive issues. Another family doesn't allow their 20 year old son or their 22 year old daughter to date, but instead uses courtship for these young people to find a spouse. One weird thing about this is that neither family is conservative Christian. In fact, both families are Jewish (and not the messianic kind), and the family with the daughter not allowed to drive is really only culturally Jewish. The other thing I find really strange is that the adult children go along with this. Like you, I don't understand what makes the adult children submit to this kind of controlling behavior by their parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Like you, I don't understand what makes the adult children submit to this kind of controlling behavior by their parents. Successful conditioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 And "asked and answered" is developmentally inappropriate for a 16 year old. How is that developmentally inappropriate? If the OP had not explained her reasons and just shut the conversation down with this response, I could see your point. However, OP said she explained her reasons to her 16yo. But, it sounds like her 16yo didn't like those answers and keeps badgering her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 How is that developmentally inappropriate? If the OP had not explained her reasons and just shut the conversation down with this response, I could see your point. However, OP said she explained her reasons to her 16yo. But, it sounds like her 16yo didn't like those answers and keeps badgering her. I was responding to a particular poster, with regard to a particular post. FTR, I am not comfortable with the relationship in general, or with allowing a child to go with a family I am not familiar with. I am also not in favor of allowing a child, even a teen, badger on a topic because they don't like my answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I guess I'm wondering what makes all these teens submit to this level of control. Well, in the case of my teen son, I can tell you that is his desire to: eat my food, live in my house, and otherwise enjoy all that I provide. At it's most basic level, that is. But we simply believe that the point of dating is to find a spouse. That dating without the intention of finding a spouse is, at best, a waste of time. It's like going to a car dealership knowing your credit is bad and you've got no cash. We also believe that it's dangerous to establish relationships with people when you cannot take them to their logical conclusion (getting married and having a family). Dating without the possibility of carrying it fully out is destined for frustration and inappropriateness. People upthread have talked about the dangers of these two kids spending nearly 24/7 with each other because it will lead to "inappropriate intimacy"....but that's what dating is for. If you don't want to become intimate, don't date. You're just messing about with each other. So, as long as I'm supporting someone who can't afford a family, they also can't afford to date. Once he can afford it, I hope he marries a nice girl and has a dozen kids. Until then, his focus needs to be studying, making money, and saving money to establish his adult life on as secure a footing as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiMi 4under3 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Leaving behind the bizarre, outmoded idea of teen aged boys being essentially flesh bags of mostly hormones fueled by blind instincts, this is a really important point. It may be effective in that it might stop the conversation, but what other message does it convey? In my experience, it conveys the message that mom is not open to discussions concerning issues that are highly personal, or potentially difficult, even if they are important. In other words, it's best to leave mom out of this part of my life. "Asked and answered" would be effective in that respect, but that's probably not serving the long-term interests of the OP, or her desires for her son. I agree with you in theory... but how and when do you put an end to a conversation that the child keeps dragging on and on and on, no matter what you say or how you explain it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Thank you for sharing your experience. I have talked with him about all of the things you have mentioned. Right down to the statutory rape. His response "Nothing is going to happen. Her parents like me." I would remind him that just because they like him "today" doesn't mean they will like him next month. Their feelings could easily change if they break up and their little girl is heartbroken. He needs to protect himself. He needs to protect his reputation both now and possibly in the future. Even if he is not planning on getting sexually involved with the girl at all, it doesn't matter. He needs his behavior to be such that nobody could accuse him of anything. It may not be fair, but it's the way of the world. I don't think that a 14yr old dating a 16 or 17yr old is always wrong just because of the age difference, but I do think the older person in the relationship needs to consider things that wouldn't have to be considered if they were both 17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 "It's completely innappropriate. The fact that you don't already know why is concerning." But why? "Why do you think?" (Some sort of completely ridiculous answer designed just to engage you in conflict). "You are seventeen and you are not stupid. Figure it out." But why? "Asked and answered." But.... (random other irritating comment). "Asked and answered. No means no. If you continue to harass me about this I'm going to assign you a paper on teen sex and teen parenting." Yes, papers are frequently the way I end arguments. If you want to argue at length or change my opinion, understand my side of the argument before you try to change my opinion. Also, these are pass/fail papers. If they don't include my side of the argument, they fail and have to write it again. Also I've found that sometimes they are so emotional they can't properly communicate what's frustrating them, but if they take the time to write it down they frequently think through the silly things themselves, and make more cogent arguments about what is actually frustrating that they hadn't previously been able to express. Also, I think some of them are going to be FASCINATING when they are adults... hehehehehe Why did you turn it into an argument? He asked you a question. Sure it might be a stupid or ignorant questions, but young people are stupid and ignorant about a lot of stuff because they don't have our 40+ years of experience. They aren't going to get wiser that way and you are losing an opportunity to offer guidance. Maybe he just needed to hear it. I wouldn't have been okay with the relationship from the start and would have nipped it then. Why okay a relationship starting and then being shocked when they develop deeper feelings? That makes no sense at all. We never know which person our kids date at any age will end up "The One" to them. That's why I believe care and guidance and standards of what is permitted should be given to ANY dating. Sure we as parents might think it's not "real love" or "lasting", but it's not what we think that matters. It's how they think and feel about it. You had no reason to think this wouldn't last. No parent has any idea of that for their kids. I would have never banked on that. I do think "ask and answered" a a completely appropriate response. But you didn't answer him. In fact, you punished him with a paper for asking. *confused* This would have been an hour or two conversation alone with my teen in my house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Just to be clear, I do not believe my son is looking at this as an opportunity to have his own personal girls gone wild weekend. I do think he is generally a good person with honorable intentions. And I am sure he is thinking how great it will be to have all that time together. Swimming, beach party, family dinners with a family that is way cooler then his family. He is 16. As responsible and mature as he is he is not a parent and he is still a bit short on life experiences and lacks the ability to think of all the possibilities. The truth of the matter is he does not want to know or admit to those other possibilities. To acknowledge them would be admitting that I am not a stupid witch whose only purpose is to ruin his good time. I think you have a solid handle on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I agree with you in theory... but how and when do you put an end to a conversation that the child keeps dragging on and on and on, no matter what you say or how you explain it? In my experience, the loop ends in one of two ways. 1.) Appeal to a circumstance out of my control (ie, accusations of statutory rape and a lifetime on the sex offenders registry), 2.) Appeal to the more persuasive argument (I totally get you have reason to believe it wouldn't happen to you hon, but I in my experience these things do happen, and sometimes the situation is even more favorable than yours), or finally ) Appeal to my emotions, as frustrating as they may be, simply are too profound (even if you assured me until your lips were blue, it wouldn't reduce my fear, and so I cannot in good conscience support this). This lets the child know that sometimes things are out of our control, theirs and ours. It's not good or bad, it just is (ie, sex offender registry). We do our best to appeal to reason. The reason to consider potential sex offender registry is more persuasive when objectively considered - which is why shutting the conversation down is missing out on a great opportunity to develop a very useful skill. It also models for the child how to navigate tricky circumstances when your feelings are strong. Focusing on reason allows us to determine of our feelings are reasonable. All points of fact considered, which is the more reasonable argument here? A 17 yo with a 14 year old gf on a family vacation, or a 17 yo passing the time in a mature and productive way (work, friends)? Being able to identify our fears and anxieties, and being able to articulate them models for the child how to do that as well. Not knowing how to identify our fears and anxieties puts us at the mercy of whatever promise of hope alleviates them for a time. That's not a practical means by which we solve problems, as kids or adults. First we have to identify the problem, then we have to brainstorm solutions. Finally, we have to recognize that sometimes the answers go against our best desires, and the ability to acknowledge this and know how to move on is a developmental skill that will continue to serve us in life. It puts us in a position of relative control over our circumstances to a greater extent than being at the mercy of our circumstances, with regard to dictating our next choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Successful conditioning. Why don't my children respond to operant conditioning??? Why? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicentra Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Speaking as a permissive parent, we don't usually throw our kids to the wolves just to avoid being the bad guy. Sometimes, the wolves just aren't there. ;) Based on what I've read in your posts, albeto, I would have said you were an authoritative parent, according to Baumrind, and not a permissive one. :) Authoritative parenting Permissive parenting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Wow. What horrible assumptions about this young man AND her parents. Seriously; this is quite possibly the most insulting post regarding teens I have ever read on this board. It is probable this young man enjoys her company, the parents like him, and appropriate supervision is a given. I'm glad I don't reduced my young adult and teen boys to a raging set or hormones not able to live a full, holistic life. :confused: And yet you posted this in another thread: It was about dating mentality and no one had mentioned sex at all...but you felt it was an important enough fact to specifically mention it. Edited at 3:12 PM because Joanne is implying I am doing something inappropriate by quoting her post from 2 weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 :confused: And yet you posted this in another thread: It was about dating mentality and no one had mentioned sex at all...but you felt it was an important enough fact to specifically mention it. I do not see an incongruency or a reason to have searched for that thread. It was, to use Biblical study terms, proof texted. And, finally, sexually active does not mean consumed, driven by, or determined by sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I do not see an incongruency, a reason to have searched for that thread. It was, to use Biblical study terms, proof texted. And, finally, sexually active does not mean consumed, driven by, or determined by sex. I remembered the thread and your response because it seemed apropos of nothing. No one was talking about sex...except you. So it stood out, in kind of a TMI way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Based on what I've read in your posts, albeto, I would have said you were an authoritative parent, according to Baumrind, and not a permissive one. :) Authoritative parenting Permissive parenting Huh. I don't know who Baumrind is, but I don't much care for that distinction at all. I find it illogical and, I dunno, reactionary? Yeah, I don't buy it. :sleep: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I remembered the thread and your response because it seemed apropos of nothing. No one was talking about sex...except you. So it stood out, in kind of a TMI way. You are probably right. And you searching and posting it again here, tangentally related, is......? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You are probably right. And you searching and posting it again here, tangentally related, is......? Because you so adamantly posted something in THIS thread that is contradictory to THAT post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Because you so adamantly posted something in THIS thread that is contradictory to THAT post. Actually, it is not. At all. But you seem quite willing to re-post something that you found (probably rightfully) innapropriate? Again, though, there is NOTHING contradictory in the posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Actually, it is not. At all. But you seem quite willing to re-post something that you found (probably rightfully) innapropriate? Again, though, there is NOTHING contradictory in the posts. So I'm the problem? Not your OTT castigating of another poster about how glad you are that you don't reduce your boys to a raging set of hormones? I guess I'm not supposed to mention your post from 2 weeks ago...because why? You said so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Why don't my children respond to operant conditioning??? Why? Why? oh, oh, oh, I KNOW! Teacher, I know! Operant conditioning ALWAYS works. It does. If you're not getting the behavior you want, you're either dealing with a self-reinforcing behavior, or not controlling access to reinforcement from the environment, or not rewarding enough, or using the wrong reward, or lumping too many behaviors together. :D Every single time I help anyone with their pet or look at what's going on with my dogs & why they're doing whatever thing they're doing instead of taking the jump or heeling or standing for the judge, it's always one of those. If the kids and dh are being annoying, it's always one of those too. :D (jk. I don't actually use a lot of behaviorism on my kids. On myself & the dogs, yes, but not much on my kids.... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 So I'm the problem? Not you OTT castigating of another poster about how glad you are that you don't reduce your boys to a raging set of hormones? I guess I'm not supposed to mention your post from 2 weeks ago...because why? You said so? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I just wanted to assert that everything I have said in this thread was directly related to this situation and this poster, who made it quite clear in both this and an earlier thread that she has explained why before, and her son was badgering her. Goodness, take peoples responses in context or just don't engage with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Because you so adamantly posted something in THIS thread that is contradictory to THAT post.Okay. Heaven knows Joanne and I often don't see eye to eye wrt to parenting, but she's right in this one. They are not contradictory bc they are not the same thing. Well they might be. I don't know so I'll politely give benefit of doubt. A teen man or any man having sex has nothing at to do with him being at the mercy of his hormones and penis urging him on. THAT presumption that a young man would one only want to screw and two just can't help himself when given an opportunity is what she found profoundly offending and I share that sentiment. Whether the young man is having sex or not, is not what she took issue with. I say that as a woman who met my dh when we were 16 and the mother of soon to be 4 teen sons and a 20 yr old son and a teen daughter. If others are in circles where the men folk act like dogs in heat around women and they just can't control themselves unless someone prevents it? Find another circle. Because NO, that is not how it should be or is for most decent young men. And most young men want to be decent and true men. Especially for their women. ETA: Also, I do rememebr that thread where Joanne posted that, and while I agree I thought it was a bit odd to toss that info in, it doesn't contradict this particular issue she responded to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I would tell him exactly why you don't want him to go. You don't want to make it easy for him to have sex with her and since you don't know her parents you have no idea if they would supervise him and her to the extent you feel comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Op - I always revert to, if you want the answer now, it's no. If you keep badgering me, it's going to stay no. If you want me to think about, let me think about it & talk to others & I'll get back to you in two weeks (or whatever date you want) . Then I write it down in the calendar that on that day we're going to talk about it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Okay. Heaven knows Joanne and I often don't see eye to eye wrt to parenting, but she's right in this one. They are not contradictory bc they are not the same thing. Well they might be. I don't know so I'll politely give benefit of doubt. A teen man or any man having sex has nothing at to do with him being at the mercy of his hormones and penis urging him on. THAT presumption that a young man would one only want to screw and two just can't help himself when given an opportunity is what she found profoundly offending and I share that sentiment. Whether the young man is having sex or not, is not what she took issue with. I say that as a woman who met my dh when we were 16 and the mother of soon to be 4 teen sons and a 20 yr old son and a teen daughter. If others are in circles where the men folk act like dogs in heat around women and they just can't control themselves unless someone prevents it? Find another circle. Because NO, that is not how it should be or is for most decent young men. And most young men want to be decent and true men. Especially for their women. ETA: Also, I do rememebr that thread where Joanne posted that, and while I agree I thought it was a bit odd to toss that info in, it doesn't contradict this particular issue she responded to. It points to idea that...you know what nevermind. The only way I can make my point is to continue to post what Joanne already over shared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'm so confused why no one is remembering that we already hashed this whole topic out in a previous thread awhile ago (except for the OP's latest question). If you recall, almost no one thought it was a good idea for this 17 yo to go on the vacay with the 14yo for a whole host of reasons which the OP gave in that other thread. Please search out the old thread before leaping to weird conclusions. OP, I have no words to help the argument you asked about today. I do think odds are good they won't even be dating anymore in a few months (just because that's often how teen relationships go), so it might be easier to just say, we'll discuss it further when it's much closer to the time. Perhaps it will become a nonissue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMV Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I get the impression that the issue between you and your son has very little to do with whether or not you allow him to vacation with his girlfriend's family. I think the bigger issue is that you don't approve of this relationship and you pretty strongly dislike his current girlfriend. You are completely entitled to your and opinion and your feelings (you may even be right on target in your judgments about her and her parents) but I think you have to understand that if he cares about this girl it will hurt him when you convey your disapproval. This doesn't mean you should stifle your feelings (because perhaps she really is as bad as you think) but I think you need to understand that how you express your concerns and feelings will impact your relationship with your son. I admit that I do wonder if perhaps the girlfriend is being used as a subconscious scapegoat for some of the decisions that your son has made lately that you haven't agreed with. You shared something about how she was leading him into one bad decision after another or something similar (I'm too lazy to actually search for the old thread so if I'm not paraphrasing well then I apologize and really don't intend any ill will) on another thread and I think this may be the critical issue. Do you really think that your almost seventeen year son is so naive and impressionable that he is being led around by a fourteen year old? If I had this concern about my child I would address that. As an aside, I'm not sure that a two year age gap between teens is necessarily bad or insurmountable. I do think it depends on the maturity level of the individuals involved. Our eldest daughter grew up quickly, that was just the reality of the way her life played out and while her dad and I wish that she had not had some of the challenges and experiences she did as a tween and young teen they were her reality and she really was much more mature at fourteen than many. She started dating her current boyfriend before her fifteenth birthday and he was seventeen then. It worked for them and in spite of going to universities on different coasts they are still together now when she is nineteen and he will be twenty two this spring. I will acknowledge that, in contrast to your situation, we really like DD19's boyfriend, we did know him (and his family) before they started dating, and in general we think he is a kind, intelligent, and level headed young man. In our situation we did invite her boyfriend to join us a few times on trips to one of our vacation homes and we did bring him with us to a few of her tournaments and meets and she went with his parents a few times as well. I'm not sharing our experience in an effort to sway your decision but more to offer the perspective that not all parents who allow their teens to go off with other families or who invite a teen to join their family are irresponsible or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'm so confused why no one is remembering that we already hashed this whole topic out in a previous thread awhile ago (except for the OP's latest question). If you recall, almost no one thought it was a good idea for this 17 yo to go on the vacay with the 14yo for a whole host of reasons which the OP gave in that other thread. Please search out the old thread before leaping to weird conclusions. OP, I have no words to help the argument you asked about today. I do think odds are good they won't even be dating anymore in a few months (just because that's often how teen relationships go), so it might be easier to just say, we'll discuss it further when it's much closer to the time. Perhaps it will become a nonissue. Pretty much nothing new gets said here. So.. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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