harsh nursery lady, wwyd

[Xahm]

I don't like to leave my little ones with the head of the nursery department because she is very gruff and "scoldy." She's older, about 70, and very old-school in just about every way (pro formula, day care, boys wear blue and don't touch dolls) and proud of her many years of experience. I work with her weekly and it drives me nuts. Worse, she is harsher and more judgemental with minorities. (She looked at me saying "I don't know what's wrong with him" when a 3 year old proudly showed me how he could color with 2 crayons) What would you do? The kids are mostly 0-3 and the church is relatively small. I've brought it up with her boss and not much changed. She really loves (most of) the kids and this job is a big part of her identity. She will probably remain in this positionfor another 5 years if health is the only factor.

[kitten18]

I wouldn't leave my kids there. I would take them to the church service.

[Xahm]

I do, but she's also there for kid's activities during the week. Would you tell other parents your observations, or is that gossip?

[MiMi 4under3]

Is she good/kind to the kids? Does she keep her opinions to herself or tell them to the adults only.

 

I would have a problem if she said "I don't know what's wrong with you," directly to a child. But if she's just old-school strict, then I'd let her be.

[redsquirrel]

Don't leave your kids there. I remember my mom hiring a local babysitter who was very similar. Once my mom was gone, that lady was MEAN. I remember her calling my three year old brother a crybaby and a sissy etc. He was a TODDLER who missed his mommy. I was the oldest and she would tell me to stay away from him and not comfort him or play with him because he had 'too many sisters' (he had 3) and it was making him girly etc.

 

Your kids are precious. Why let someone around them that you know might hurt their hearts?

[mamakelly]

Don't leave your kids with her!! I used to volunteer in the two's class at our old church. One of the ladies was very gruff and harsh with the adults that were working with her. It bothered me so much, I asked not to be scheduled the same day as me. She seemed okay with the kids, so I just figured it was adults she had an issue with. One day I picked my 2 year old up from nursery, and he was sitting by the door hiding under his blanket. I could tell he had been crying and he was very upset. I was concerned and asked if something had happened, and she said that he had been that way all service and she didn't know what his problem was :ohmy: After that day, every time we walked down the hallway toward the classroom he screamed bloody murder. I have no idea what happened that upset him so much, but after that he wouldn't go near that lady or the classroom. He ended up spending the next *2* years sitting with us in service because he refused to go to class. I wish I had listened to my gut and not left him with her. We changed churches and they had a sweet wonderful group of church workers without a cranky lady.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is her boss the pastor?  What is the hierarchy in the church?   As to talking with other parents - it's a bit tricky.  I might privately ask a good friend's opinion of this person's manner with the children just to see if it is a problem with your own perception.  Some people's "harsh" is another person's "brisk and efficient".  But I wouldn't talk to other parents in general about it because I do think that is gossip.  And if your perception is fine, I would go up the chain of command so to speak.  

[Mbelle]

Yeah, don't leave them there.  You already know her values regarding children don't line up with yours on most points.

You've seen her in action.  I've seen this at church too.  I never left my kids with them.  I don't care if they've been doing that job for 24 years, as if that is some kind of  way to back up all your mid century child minding ideas. 

 

I don't understand harsh people in child care.  I used to work in child care and most of the people just loved on the kids.  I did run into one mean caregiver, but she put on a good front to the parents, but during the day she got baby blankets and slept in the corner.  The director (male) liked her!

[happi duck]

Your description gives me the creeps!

[Xahm]

Is her boss the pastor?  What is the hierarchy in the church?   As to talking with other parents - it's a bit tricky.  I might privately ask a good friend's opinion of this person's manner with the children just to see if it is a problem with your own perception.  Some people's "harsh" is another person's "brisk and efficient".  But I wouldn't talk to other parents in general about it because I do think that is gossip.  And if your perception is fine, I would go up the chain of command so to speak.  

 I've spoken with the head of children's ministries, who did take some action, but whatever it was was temporary. I would go to her again for another chance before I went to the pastor or any of the elders. I might informally talk to the pastor's wife, but that seems like a bad idea, too.  My husband recommends asking cranky-lady to step into the hall to discuss it immediately after observing inappropriate behavior and then letting her tell on herself when she goes and complains about me.  This Sunday evening my co-teacher (we are in a classroom that adjoin's this woman's) is going to try to talk to cranky-lady, but my friend is even more non-confrontational than I am.

[Peaceful Isle]

 

 

my advice, tell the pastors wife. She would really want to know. Most likely this cranky lady is driving young families away. Neither the pastor or his wife would want this. Let her take care of it. 

I am a pastor's wife. :) I would want to know.

[Xahm]

my advice, tell the pastors wife. She would really want to know. Most likely this cranky lady is driving young families away. Neither the pastor or his wife would want this. Let her take care of it. 

I am a pastor's wife. :) I would want to know.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. If the direct approach with the nursery lady doesn't work or happen, I'll try that.

[violamama]

Is she one on one with the kids, or is there always another adult in the room? (Can't imagine adults being alone with kids in this day & age but it happens in smaller churches...)

 

If she's never alone with them I would maybe consider it. If she is saying these things in front of the kids, that is damaging and would be a deal breaker. They understand more than it seems even when they're very young. 

 

Bummer that her boss didn't listen. So many nurseries are hard up for help. 

 

I would not talk to other parents unless you think they may have input for you and even then it's a fine line between gathering information and pumping information out in the community. If she is staying and you are staying, then you may have to find a work-around. It feels like forever right now, but a few years of "plan B" for the nursery is live-able. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would not leave my kids with her.

 

 

[Xahm]

Is she one on one with the kids, or is there always another adult in the room? (Can't imagine adults being alone with kids in this day & age but it happens in smaller churches...)

 

If she's never alone with them I would maybe consider it. If she is saying these things in front of the kids, that is damaging and would be a deal breaker. They understand more than it seems even when they're very young. 

 

Bummer that her boss didn't listen. So many nurseries are hard up for help. 

 

I would not talk to other parents unless you think they may have input for you and even then it's a fine line between gathering information and pumping information out in the community. If she is staying and you are staying, then you may have to find a work-around. It feels like forever right now, but a few years of "plan B" for the nursery is live-able. 

 The rule is that there's always another adult in the room and it's followed pretty well, but if the second adult has to go to the bathroom or something like that, she's alone with them.  It really is the saying things in front of kids that moves it from "annoyance" to "need to do something" in my mind.

[Elisabet1]

I would not leave my children in the nursery. I left a church that I only just tried because I did not like how they ran the nursery. Church is a family thing and if it isn't working for a family member, it is not going to happen.

[unsinkable]

You could become a Catholic.

 

We don't do nurseries and mean nursery ladies. :D

[Bootsie]

You say that she has years of experience.  How long is that and have they all been at that church?  I have been in small churches where the older nursery lady watched the parents of today's nursery children 25 years ago.  I have also seen adults who appear gruff but who love and care for kids to form great relationships with the children.  Sometimes the outward gruffness bothers adults more than children.  As for her views on formula, day care, and what color boys should wear, I would see those as her personal opinions and not really impacting her ability to care for the children.  Also, those views do not necessarily belong to one age group--I know plenty of people in their 70s that have opposite views from what you describe and I know many people who are much younger that have those views.  

[Chris in VA]

I would not "talk to the pastor's wife."

That kind of advice really bugs  the crap out of me, to be totally honest and more than usually blunt.

Why in the world would the pastor's wife have anything to do with it?

Unless, of course, she is on staff and directly supervising the nursery.

 

ETA: Sigh. I should probably either explain or apologize for the above comment. I think it triggers me a bit to have people think the pastor's wife is in a position of authority. "Two for one" type thinking in churches (We'll hire X and get X's spouse for free!) isn't fair--it places unfair and unrealistic expectations on the spouse and the clergy family, and it elevates the spouse to a position I personally do not believe is right. She or he is a parishoner who happens to be married to the clergyperson. That's it. Thinking the spouse can "bend the clergy's ear" or is somehow secretly in power in some way is dangerous to the health of a congregation--they should be able and willing and COMFORTABLE enough to go directly to the clergy person to handle CLERGY MATTERS.

 

Vent over.

[Peaceful Isle]

I would not "talk to the pastor's wife."

That kind of advice really bugs  the crap out of me, to be totally honest and more than usually blunt.

Why in the world would the pastor's wife have anything to do with it?

Unless, of course, she is on staff and directly supervising the nursery.

 

ETA: Sigh. I should probably either explain or apologize for the above comment. I think it triggers me a bit to have people think the pastor's wife is in a position of authority. "Two for one" type thinking in churches (We'll hire X and get X's spouse for free!) isn't fair--it places unfair and unrealistic expectations on the spouse and the clergy family, and it elevates the spouse to a position I personally do not believe is right. She or he is a parishoner who happens to be married to the clergyperson. That's it. Thinking the spouse can "bend the clergy's ear" or is somehow secretly in power in some way is dangerous to the health of a congregation--they should be able and willing and COMFORTABLE enough to go directly to the clergy person to handle CLERGY MATTERS.

 

Vent over

I love the people in my church. If I ever knew there was a mean cranky nursery lady, I would want to know, and yes I would help in the situation. I am the pastors wife, and am not paid staff or anything. I do care very much about the children and people in our church, and would hate to not know of mothers that are feeling this way. I don't feel like it is a job. I am a peacemaker and would rather take the blunt end of that cranky lady, than a young mother of my church. :) Just my experience.

That said, everyone is different. :)

I do understand your trigger about using the "pastors wife position". I have said no, to many things that many think are pastor wife duties. My husband is very non pushy about me being or doing anything except what I feel comfortable with. He is awesome like that.

[indigomama]

I would not "talk to the pastor's wife."

That kind of advice really bugs  the crap out of me, to be totally honest and more than usually blunt.

Why in the world would the pastor's wife have anything to do with it?

Unless, of course, she is on staff and directly supervising the nursery.

 

ETA: Sigh. I should probably either explain or apologize for the above comment. I think it triggers me a bit to have people think the pastor's wife is in a position of authority. "Two for one" type thinking in churches (We'll hire X and get X's spouse for free!) isn't fair--it places unfair and unrealistic expectations on the spouse and the clergy family, and it elevates the spouse to a position I personally do not believe is right. She or he is a parishoner who happens to be married to the clergyperson. That's it. Thinking the spouse can "bend the clergy's ear" or is somehow secretly in power in some way is dangerous to the health of a congregation--they should be able and willing and COMFORTABLE enough to go directly to the clergy person to handle CLERGY MATTERS.

 

Vent over.

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

 

As a PW, I cannot agree enough. For the most part, we have a very loving church who respects the fact that my DH is employed there, I am not. But every once and a while, I get people who want to complain to me, or ask me questions, that I honestly don't know the answers to, and frankly, I shouldn't. 

 

To OP: go to who is in charge of her, and work your way up that leadership ladder, until something is done about it.

[FO4UR]

I'd not try to talk to cranky lady anymore. You've done that.

 

I'd inform the pastor that either cranky lady retires the nursery position or you are looking for another church. I've seen kids hurt by this sort of thing. I've seen MY kids hurt by cranky people who wrap their identity in being the "Nursery" or "Children's" lady. 

 

She's going to cause a fuss one way or another. The adults should be the ones to handle it, NOT innocent babies.

[Chris in VA]

I love the people in my church. If I ever knew there was a mean cranky nursery lady, I would want to know, and yes I would help in the situation. I am the pastors wife, and am not paid staff or anything. I do care very much about the children and people in our church, and would hate to not know of mothers that are feeling this way. I don't feel like it is a job. I am a peacemaker and would rather take the blunt end of that cranky lady, than a young mother of my church. :) Just my experience.

That said, everyone is different. :)

I do understand your trigger about using the "pastors wife position". I have said no, to many things that many think are pastor wife duties. My husband is very non pushy about me being or doing anything except what I feel comfortable with. He is awesome like that.

 

I do agree with you in that I would want to know, too! But not because I'm the pastor's wife. Do you see what I mean?

[Peaceful Isle]

I do agree with you in that I would want to know, too! But not because I'm the pastor's wife. Do you see what I mean?

Absolutely :)

[Farrar]

Agreed that you should talk to the minister.

 

As for other families, I would not bring it up or "warn" anyone. On the other hand, I would quietly confirm if any parents brought it up with you and just say, yes, I've also observed that and am uncomfortable leaving my kids with her.

[gaillardia]

Maybe after prayerful consideration, your pastor would feel this woman's service is needed in another capacity. It is hard to tell people how messed up things are, if that is how you feel, I've been in that situation and ended up being the one taking the place of the mean nursery lady.

[LibraryLover]

Unless she is in poor health, 70 is almost always the new 60 , so you need to say something. There is no telling how long she will be the Mean Nursery Lady.  It's not her age, it's her. Not letting toddler boys touch  (Edited to say ' not letting little boys play with dolls' is that better? lol :) ) dolls, saying inappropriate things aloud to babies, plus being racist?  (That can't be new.)  Wrong in every way. 

[LibraryLover]

I read both of her posts of concern. She is seeing inappropriate behavior in the nursery. Also, behavior that seems to stem from racism.

 

 

Did the OP indicate she has done that in the nursery? I must have misread that, I thought it was just an opinion on raising her own kids. I agree that's pretty over the top micromanaging of a communal playroom!

 

 

[Bootsie]

Unless she is in poor health, 70 is almost always the new 60 , so you need to say something. There is no telling how long she will be the Mean Nursery Lady.  It's not her age, it's her. Not letting toddler boys touch dolls, saying inappropriate things aloud to babies, plus being racist?  (That can't be new.)  Wrong in every way. 

My opinion is different than what I stated above if this is what is happening.  I took OP message to mean that the nursery lady didn't think boys should play with dolls (especially since it was put in a context of what colors they should wear and how they should be fed, which are not decisions she would be making/enforcing).  I didn't take it that she was not allowing the boys to touch dolls.  

[LibraryLover]

On dolls and how would the OP know Nursery Lady doesn't want the boys to play with dolls?  I am assuming whenever the boys try to play with the dolls she stops/says no//distracts/takes away?  Or does she already have a No Dolls for Boys rule in place? Does she make disparaging comments if the boy tots do play with the baby dolls? 

[Farrar]

On dolls and how would the OP know Nursery Lady doesn't want the boys to play with dolls?  I am assuming whenever the boys try to play with the dolls she stops/says no//distracts/takes away?  Or does she already have a No Dolls for Boys rule in place? Does she make disparaging comments if the boy tots to play with the baby dolls? 

 

Something along those lines is certainly what I assumed from the OP's post. And considering the comment she made about the non-white little boy, I'm guess disparaging comments.

 

I did get that the vaguely racist comments were made as an aside to her as an adult, but still in the presence of the other kids.

 

Even if she hadn't targeted the boy in the OP's example because he was not white, why would you stomp on a 3 yo's happiness with using some crayons in a new way like that? It's just, as the thread title indicates, mean. It's not strict or old-fashioned, it's just mean and judgmental... toward a toddler for goodness sake!

[LibraryLover]

Something along those lines is certainly what I assumed from the OP's post. And considering the comment she made about the non-white little boy, I'm guess disparaging comments.

 

I did get that the vaguely racist comments were made as an aside to her as an adult, but still in the presence of the other kids.

 

Even if she hadn't targeted the boy in the OP's example because he was not white, why would you stomp on a 3 yo's happiness with using some crayons in a new way like that? It's just, as the thread title indicates, mean. It's not strict or old-fashioned, it's just mean and judgmental... toward a toddler for goodness sake!

 

That is never OK.

[Bootsie]

Something along those lines is certainly what I assumed from the OP's post. And considering the comment she made about the non-white little boy, I'm guess disparaging comments.

 

I did get that the vaguely racist comments were made as an aside to her as an adult, but still in the presence of the other kids.

 

Even if she hadn't targeted the boy in the OP's example because he was not white, why would you stomp on a 3 yo's happiness with using some crayons in a new way like that? It's just, as the thread title indicates, mean. It's not strict or old-fashioned, it's just mean and judgmental... toward a toddler for goodness sake!

I wasn't able to jump to those conclusions.  If the OP knows about the lady's views on day care, formula, and what color boys should wear, she must have had some discussions with her.  I think it is within the realm of possibility that her knowledge of the lady's views about what toys should be played with come from discussions, also, not from specific actions that were taken.  

 

A comment of "I don't know what's wrong with him" seems like an odd comment, but I can't jump to the conclusion that it is a racist comment--or even that it is mean and judgmental.  That could mean a lot of things,  "I don't know what's wrong with him--usually he is more talkative; he is limping; he doesn't seem himself today...."  

 

If I were the OP and I had reported what I was observing to the supervisor and felt like the situation had not be responded to appropriately, I would consider whether I had given the most specific and glaring examples of the problems.  I know that OP only posted a brief account, and there are probably more examples.  My suggestion would be that future conversations with the supervisor focus on specifics that are happening that are involving children, not differences of opinion (like what color children should wear).  

[Farrar]

I guess I was trusting that the OP understood the context of the comment to be that the "mean lady" had some low opinion of this child, but for a reason she could not see, and that it seemed to be a pattern of dislike primarily for the minority children.

 

I agree that if this woman has not ever acted on some of these views in the nursery or only expressed them when asked for her opinion by the parents, then there's a lot less there. I mean, saying to another adult, "I don't think boys should play with dolls," is not something I'm super cool with, but I would distinguish that from enforcing it as a rule or something. Or saying to an adult who asked her opinion, "Children should always be formula fed," is different from offering up her opinion that parents are making a mistake by breastfeeding unsolicited, or, worse, giving an infant in her care food the parents don't want the baby to have, or not giving milk the parents left.

[FO4UR]

*editing this down to my actual point*

 

An amazing amount of nursery drama can be avoided just by figuring out the preferences of mom and dad - poor communication between volunteers and parents leads to most of the issues and I wonder if that might be what is happening with mean nursery lady in the OP?

 

I don't think communication will help this one. It sounds like it's already been communicated that her behavior is inappropriate. And the behavior is WILDLY inappropriate.  We aren't talking about cleaning toys. We are talking about belittling and berating children!!!

 

My experience with people who are *emotionally unstable* enough to think/say/do such hurtful things to a small child is that they are also emotionally unstable enough to turn an entire church upside down in order to maintain what they perceive as their turf.  (Her identity is wrapped up in her role as The Nursery Lady!)  My experience tells me that if OP talks any further with the Mean Nursery Lady, she will be the brunt of some ugly gossip in the near future...and if this lady has any power in the community at large, her career, her husband's career, her children's spot on the sports team, etc. are all in danger if this comes FROM THE OP.  Not to mention, she better watch her littles like a HAWK b/c some UGLY NASTY can be spewed at her babies even if she doesn't leave them in the nursery ever again. Talking in the hallway for 5min can be the 5min when tiny-tot is cornered and told his mommy is going to h@ll or some such hatefulness.  (I've seen this happen.)

 

The pastor's job is to take care of things like this. Take it to him/her. It needs to be a "Parents are uncomfortable with...." and "The atmosphere of our children's classes are going to be...." sort of leadership.  Then, be willing to support the pastor b/c HE will be the brunt of the previously mentioned gossip, slander, and sabotage.

 

Sometimes there is an Elders or Deacons board or Personel Committee that handles this stuff.  Either way, tell pastor first and he will direct you to the next step. If nothing happens after telling the pastor, find another church. Google "forces exits" if you have a bunch of time on your hands. Personalities like this can really kill a church. Maybe your family can be a catalyst for some positive change, but don't feel guilty if you need to go.

 

Call me a skeptic, but I've seen this play out more than a few times.  (and I'm a PW)

[Catwoman]

I think we need more details about exactly what the woman has said directly to the children, and what she has said to the OP when the children weren't listening. I have read her posts, but I'm still not clear about this.

 

If she is simply strict and a little old-fashioned in her parenting style, I wouldn't try to cause any problems for her. She is a volunteer and is apparently very dedicated to her job. If she didn't like children, the nursery would seem like an odd place for her to want to remain for years to come.

 

OTOH, if she is directly abusive to the children, I think the OP should speak directly to the pastor, and cite specific examples.

 

I'm also not sure what to think of the accusation that the woman is a racist, as it seems a bit odd to me that she has held the position in the nursery for years and it appears that no one has ever called her out on it. I can't help but wonder if the OP may be assigning motivations to the woman without any real evidence. (For all the OP knows, she might have made her "I don't know what is wrong with that child" comment about any child, regardless of race, particularly given the OP's own description of the woman as gruff.)

 

I guess my main concern here is whether or not this woman has actually done anything wrong, or if the OP simply doesn't like her because she has a different parenting philosophy, so she would like to run the nursery her own way and not the way the older woman is currently doing it.

 

I'm not criticizing the OP, as she obviously wants what is best for the children, but I think it is very easy for any of us to find fault with someone who deals with children differently than we do, and it can be difficult to be objective about that person's intentions and motivations when we disagree with them on fundamental issues, so that's why I'm not sure what to say about Nursery Lady.

[Xahm]

More explanation while maintaining anonymity: On a weekly basis, I teach a class in an adjoining room, and after class, "her" babies and "my" toddlers play together. She makes comments about everything in a "over the kids' heads" kind of way, but very much in their earshot. The frequent comments about my and others' parenting are annoying, but eh. Other comments, like when boys have chosen to play with dolls, have more potential for being hurtful since the kids can certainly hear her disapproval. She doesn't stop them, but she talks about them like they are some kind of strange specimen. My perception of racism is based on the fact that the minority children never, ever, are described with positive adjectives as most of the other children are. Being energetic is described as being rough and mean (even when the child is sharing and it is playtime) and coloring a picture differently than others is sign of "something wrong," not creativity. And comments about "these people." (I do cut off these comments before they go anywhere, so I don't know all her thoughts on the subject.) It hasn't come up much in previous years because our church has historically been very white.

She does have positive interactions, too. I think she doesn't believe kids can hear her unless she is speaking to them. I'm going to try to be more direct with her in a "can I talk to you in the hall" kind of way, then talk to the "boss." If it gets so bad I plan to leave, I will probably speak to the pastor's wife (and the pastor if she refers me there).

 

[sassenach]

my advice, tell the pastors wife. She would really want to know. Most likely this cranky lady is driving young families away. Neither the pastor or his wife would want this. Let her take care of it.

I am a pastor's wife. :) I would want to know.

Interesting! I'm a pastor's wife and I would not want people to come to me with complaints. I would want them to first go directly to the person, and then second go to that person's supervisor. If that doesn't resolve things, then go to the pastor.

 

I have people come to me with all sorts of issues that I have no jurisdiction over. My main goal is to make sure people don't skip the very important step of one on one confrontation. My second goal is to make sure they know which elder or deacon to go to next (every ministry in our church has a deacon and an elder over it). I am not a middle man to my husband. That would not be good for us!

[Carol in Cal.]

How it should be handled:  The woman should be corrected and she should repent and change.

How it would actually probably be handled in our church:  Someone else would quietly be asked to join her and head off anything inappropriate.  There would be a lot of hemming and hawing before this happened.  No one would speak to the woman about it.  Two years later or so it would get back to her.  By then a whole bunch of people would already know about it.  She would feel like she had been sinfully gossiped about and had had her legs cut off behind her back.  Everyone else would feel a strange mixture of self-rightiousness for protecting the kids and guilt for not doing it properly.   

[Farrar]

Some kids won't be affected by the "over your head talk" and others, yes, as young as two and three, will absolutely hone in and get something from it. I think this is tricky because it's not that her actions are wildly inappropriate, it's that her attitude and words just constantly skirt the line. I wonder if someone can help reframe for her that her primary job in the nursery is to love the children there, not to judge.

[Xahm]

How it should be handled:  The woman should be corrected and she should repent and change.

How it would actually probably be handled in our church:  Someone else would quietly be asked to join her and head off anything inappropriate.  There would be a lot of hemming and hawing before this happened.  No one would speak to the woman about it.  Two years later or so it would get back to her.  By then a whole bunch of people would already know about it.  She would feel like she had been sinfully gossiped about and had had her legs cut off behind her back.  Everyone else would feel a strange mixture of self-rightiousness for protecting the kids and guilt for not doing it properly.   

 

Thank you for this response. It is this second that I'm trying to avoid, but direct confrontation is uncomfortable, particularly because I think she's not the "take a hint" type. I'll need to be very blunt, which is not my way.

[Carol in Cal.]

Thank you for this response. It is this second that I'm trying to avoid, but direct confrontation is uncomfortable, particularly because I think she's not the "take a hint" type. I'll need to be very blunt, which is not my way.

 

I think that what actually should happen is that someone should talk to her but also someone should go in there, not to head her off as much as to model and teach how Christians should treat precious little ones.  That person needs to not talk about it to others in the congregation, but to quietly dig in and get this done.  The person needs to be very smiley and positive but also explicit in conversing with her, saying things like, "The kids need to feel emotionally safe and loved here, as a demonstrate of Christ's love for us--'We love because He first loved us.'"  "I don't think you would talk about an adult that way, and I don't think we should talk to children that way, either."  "I love these children--they are such a pleasure to be around!"  "Don't let him hear you say that or you will hurt his feelings.  That would be so sad, especially at church." 

 

It is honestly true that a lot of people have parented more or less in isolation and really, honestly don't have the tools to approach kids positively but still maintain order.  And this can be taught, and it can be learned.  I have seen it.

 

As with a toddler, though, you can't just say no.  You have to teach what to do instead.

[Xahm]

I think that what actually should happen is that someone should talk to her but also someone should go in there, not to head her off as much as to model and teach how Christians should treat precious little ones.  That person needs to not talk about it to others in the congregation, but to quietly dig in and get this done.  The person needs to be very smiley and positive but also explicit in conversing with her, saying things like, "The kids need to feel emotionally safe and loved here, as a demonstrate of Christ's love for us--'We love because He first loved us.'"  "I don't think you would talk about an adult that way, and I don't think we should talk to children that way, either."  "I love these children--they are such a pleasure to be around!"  "Don't let him hear you say that or you will hurt his feelings.  That would be so sad, especially at church." 

 

It is honestly true that a lot of people have parented more or less in isolation and really, honestly don't have the tools to approach kids positively but still maintain order.  And this can be taught, and it can be learned.  I have seen it.

 

As with a toddler, though, you can't just say no.  You have to teach what to do instead.

Right. I think the head of children's ministries is trying to do this, but this older woman, understandably, trusts her own years of experience more. As someone her Grandkids' age, I know she doesn't take what I do very seriously.

[Catwoman]

Right. I think the head of children's ministries is trying to do this, but this older woman, understandably, trusts her own years of experience more. As someone her Grandkids' age, I know she doesn't take what I do very seriously.

If the head of children's ministries is already trying to guide the woman, why do you feel the need to speak with her? I was under the impression that you were the first person to notice her behavior, not that it was already being addressed. (Sorry if I misread your posts!)

 

If you think the head of children's ministries is being ineffective, you should first address that person, and if you are dissatisfied with the response, then you should probably go straight to your pastor with your concerns.

 

As it is, you say she won't take you seriously because you are so young. Are you certain that you don't have similar feelings toward her because she is much older and has a different perspective on how to parent children -- and also because you have overheard her making unfavorable comments about you? I know it would influence my thinking if I felt that someone thought I wasn't raising my child properly!

 

I'm still uncertain as to whether or not she is actually unkind to the children, nor that she is a racist. Honestly, she just sounds kind of crabby to me -- but if she is always gruff with the children, why would parents continue to leave her kids with the woman, and why wouldn't parents be up in arms about her inappropriate comments and behavior? This isn't really making sense to me.

[Xahm]

If the head of children's ministries is already trying to guide the woman, why do you feel the need to speak with her? I was under the impression that you were the first person to notice her behavior, not that it was already being addressed. (Sorry if I misread your posts!)

 

If you think the head of children's ministries is being ineffective, you should first address that person, and if you are dissatisfied with the response, then you should probably go straight to your pastor with your concerns.

 

As it is, you say she won't take you seriously because you are so young. Are you certain that you don't have similar feelings toward her because she is much older and has a different perspective on how to parent children -- and also because you have overheard her making unfavorable comments about you? I know it would influence my thinking if I felt that someone thought I wasn't raising my child properly!

 

I'm still uncertain as to whether or not she is actually unkind to the children, nor that she is a racist. Honestly, she just sounds kind of crabby to me -- but if she is always gruff with the children, why would parents continue to leave her kids with the woman, and why wouldn't parents be up in arms about her inappropriate comments and behavior? This isn't really making sense to me.

You make some good points. I'm trying to check my own motives and feelings, but I really haven't been personally hurt by her disapproval. She has voiced the standard "the reason your baby is so clingy is because you don't have him in preschool" and "Why are you still breastfeeding" kinds of things straight to me, but I'm confident in my choices and so mostly feel a kind of amusement (and honestly, maybe I feel condescending a bit). Since she has tried to criticize other parents to me, I'm sure she's said other things behind my back as well, but her opinion isn't of great importance to me, and I think everyone kind of just shakes their head and says "That crabby nursery lady" about the things she says to them.

 

She is kind to most of the kids, lots of hugs and affection mixed with a lot of scolding, but it is balanced for most of them. Then there are a handful for whom she NEVER has anything nice to say, and this number happens to include all the minorities. I wouldn't call her a racist in person, because to her generation (in this area especially) that term describes something very strong and terrible, and she is not that kind of person. She just sees dark skin and assumes there's going to be trouble (yes, I'm reading some into what she does, but there are loads of people in this category and I think I'm making only very small assumptions).

 

Basically, I've brought it up to the hierarchy once and I think something was done or said, but I'm unsure what. I was posting here to get some feedback to help me think through whether I'm over-reacting  or should bring it back up, as well as to try to get some sense of whether to go directly to Nursery Lady or to her boss.

[Tess in the Burbs]

You need to speak up.  We were at a church when the kids were littles and there was one lady who was loud and firm.  My dd didn't mesh well with firm in the younger ages ;-)  She would be put in time out and proceed to have the worst tantrums the entire hour b/c they kept trying to force her to sit.  I have video of these tantrums and making her sit only makes it worse.  I am the parent and calming her down didn't involve forced sitting.  I get other kids respond well to that, this kid did not do well in that approach lol!

 

It made me uncomfortable b/c I felt like it was only my kid.  But something happened one night...I believe this lady slapped a kid and was fired.  But I wish I had spoken up sooner that her ways only made my kid more problematic.  I was a young mom not really confident in speaking my mind.  Of course now I speak it all the time lol.  

 

Speak up, say something.  And keep your kid with you if you can!!

[Catwoman]

You make some good points. I'm trying to check my own motives and feelings, but I really haven't been personally hurt by her disapproval. She has voiced the standard "the reason your baby is so clingy is because you don't have him in preschool" and "Why are you still breastfeeding" kinds of things straight to me, but I'm confident in my choices and so mostly feel a kind of amusement (and honestly, maybe I feel condescending a bit). Since she has tried to criticize other parents to me, I'm sure she's said other things behind my back as well, but her opinion isn't of great importance to me, and I think everyone kind of just shakes their head and says "That crabby nursery lady" about the things she says to them.

 

She is kind to most of the kids, lots of hugs and affection mixed with a lot of scolding, but it is balanced for most of them. Then there are a handful for whom she NEVER has anything nice to say, and this number happens to include all the minorities. I wouldn't call her a racist in person, because to her generation (in this area especially) that term describes something very strong and terrible, and she is not that kind of person. She just sees dark skin and assumes there's going to be trouble (yes, I'm reading some into what she does, but there are loads of people in this category and I think I'm making only very small assumptions).

 

Basically, I've brought it up to the hierarchy once and I think something was done or said, but I'm unsure what. I was posting here to get some feedback to help me think through whether I'm over-reacting  or should bring it back up, as well as to try to get some sense of whether to go directly to Nursery Lady or to her boss.

Thanks for clarifying. :)

 

Based upon what you have posted, I don't think you should approach her directly, as I have a feeling you would end up offending her and that she probably wouldn't take you seriously anyway. She might even scold you for trying to tell an older, more experienced person what to do. The way you have described her makes me think she won't accept that you are trying to be helpful and constructive, which I do believe is what you would be trying to do. And if you offend her, she might end up reporting you to the pastor and saying that you are trying to undermine her authority and question her abilities. In short, I think the whole thing could end up backfiring on you.

 

The more you post, the more I think you should go directly to your pastor with your concerns, and see what kind of response you get. I simply can't imagine the woman responding positively to criticism and suggestions from you, but she may have more respect for the pastor, particularly if he is a bit older.

 

I hope you are able to work this out! I know it is uncomfortable to take this kind of action, but I applaud you for being so concerned about the children that you are willing to do it.

[LucyStoner]

Why don't we give the OP the same benefit of the doubt as some are imploring the OP give this lady?

 

She was there, she has observed a pattern. She probably knows better than any of us if this woman's actions reflect racist or sexist attitudes.

[Farrar]

Okay, knowing there's a children's minister and knowing the children's minister is at least somewhat on this, I would go to the children's minister and say much of what you've said here. You want to value her service and know this job is important and don't want this to turn into gossip, etc. etc., but you want to make sure that some of this behavior and attitude is turned around. You're concerned about the kids and her attitude toward them occasionally, you don't feel it's a very supportive environment for new parents to have their decisions questioned, you're especially concerned about how she targets a few of the kids as being "bad apples" and that that seems to include every minority child in her care. You feel this makes an uncomfortable and sometimes hostile environment in the nursery and you don't think that's good for the church. You're hoping the children's minister can take a bit more of a hands on role in guiding her. And I would go in thinking about it in a collaborative way, you're not there to complain exactly, but to express concerns.

[happi duck]

Every time I see this thread title my mind reads it as "Hey, Harsh Nursery Lady! What would you do?"

 

I am no help whatsoever.