YEC explanation of Ark story? serious question

[MEmama]

This question is not meant to inflame or offend. As background, we are an atheist family but we are talking a lot about religion this year in our history studies as well as within current events topics. Please understand that this question is coming from a place of absolute religious ignorance. :)

 

My 11year old would like to know, respectfully, how young earth believers explain or understand the story of Noah's Ark. Do you see it as truth that 2 of each animal was admitted on board, or...?

I honestly don't mean any offense--I don't even really know the story or what it's purpose is-- but he is trying to wrap his head around a few things this morning.

 

Thanks to anyone who can offer up their respectful viewpoint!

[Anne in CA]

Well, I am in a bit of a hurry,and I am not actually a card carrying YEC, but here are some random reasons I take aspects of the story seriously. 

 

1)Nearly EVERY culture in the world, from native Argentina cultures to the ancient Greeks have a flood myth. Where there is smoke there is generally fire.

 

2)Pangaea separated at some time, no matter when it happened, and there must have been a huge flood at that time. If it did happen in the last 10,000 years it would have created a huge flood. I dont know that I believe it happened in the last 10,000 years, but I have very real reasons why I do not believe it to be impossible.

 

3)The Ark itself may very well have been big enough to hold all those animals if it were cleverly designed inside and the animals were fairly dormant during the "voyage". Many mathematicians have done work ups on this and it does not appear to be impossible.

 

I have many thoughts about the Ark because it was a stumbling block to me when I was younger, but over time I came to peace with many of the themes that unbelievers find disturbing about the story.

 

 

[vonfirmath]

Yes. 2 of every kind of animal. (breeding pair) 7 of the clean animals

[Moxie]

So, we're all descendants of Noah?

[Moxie]

Do YEC believe that the dinosaurs all died in the flood? I heard that somewhere, just wondering if it is true.

[unsinkable]

Do YEC believe that the dinosaurs all died in the flood? I heard that somewhere, just wondering if it is true.

The unicorns did.

 

I heard it in a song.

[Dory]

Do YEC believe that the dinosaurs all died in the flood? I heard that somewhere, just wondering if it is true.

 

I was not taught it that way. I was told that the dinosaurs wouldn't have to be mature animals and that many of them died out due to environmental changes, or hunting and that some of them perhaps have just shrunk in size over time.

[Slartibartfast]

The unicorns did.

 

I heard it in a song.

 

[Guest]

Do YEC believe that the dinosaurs all died in the flood? I heard that somewhere, just wondering if it is true.

Not traditionally, no. I'm sure some believe that.

 

To the OP: i'm no longer a YEC, but I was brought up to believe this about Noah's Ark:

 

1) all humankind, except Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives were evil in "every intent of their hearts." So God decided to send a great flood to eliminate all.

 

2) 2 of all kinds of animal were to be brought on the ark, except "clean" animals, of which there were seven.

 

3) noah and his sons constructed the ark according to God's specific design.

 

All life on earth was entirely destroyed, save for Noah's family and the animals on the ark.

[vonfirmath]

Do YEC believe that the dinosaurs all died in the flood? I heard that somewhere, just wondering if it is true.

 

No. Job is not pre-Flood.

 

And think of all the legends around the world about dragons. Beowulf. St. George and the Dragon. "Here there be dragons" on the maps. Loch ness Monster. Sea monsters. Year of the Dragon in China

[raptor_dad]

The unicorns did.

 

I heard it in a song.

 

Just so:

 

 

[redsquirrel]

what is a clean animal and what is a dirty animal? Why would there be 7 of the clean ones?

[Acorn]

Is there an explanation of predator/ prey species? One would need more prey species to substain the others.

[BrookValley.]

I need more info about this whole dragon thing mentioned upthread.

 

 

(edited for clarity)

[Onceuponatime]

Is there an explanation of predator/ prey species? One would need more prey species to substain the others.

 

The YEC explanation for this is before the flood there were no predators. Afterward animals and people were given permission to eat meat. (I'm not YEC, but used to be)

[Dory]

what is a clean animal and what is a dirty animal? Why would there be 7 of the clean ones?

 

I was taught that prior to kosher laws that Moses was given that it was something that was passed down orally and that 'clean' animals would be those that would follow those guidelines.

[Onceuponatime]

I need more info about this whole dragon thing mentioned upthread.

 

 

(edited for clarity)

 

The YEC take on this is usually that all the dragon legends are evidence of dinosaur populations that were still living after the flood.

[December]

The YEC explanation for this is before the flood there were no predators. Afterward animals and people were given permission to eat meat. (I'm not YEC, but used to be)

 

Huh, I always heard that it was the Fall that caused some animals to become predators.

[Onceuponatime]

I was taught that in chapter 9 of Genesis, when God told Noah that he was giving animals to man for food that that was the first time people could eat meat. It also talks about demanding an accounting for man's blood shed by animals or people. Which was used to say that animals had not been predatory until that time.

 

This is talked about in the "Daniel Plan" diet which is purported to be Biblically based.

 

ETA: It was also used to explain how the animals survived on the ark without eating each other.

[Unicorn.]

The unicorns did.

 

I heard it in a song.

No we didn't, and I'm offended that you think so.  We just aren't social, and like to hide out w/ our own kind.  :D

[Chris in VA]

I'm not YEC, but I will throw this into the mix--

 

There is evidence of a Black Sea flood. No less than Robert Ballard, discoverer of the Titanic, has done much research on this. While it doesn't support YE, it does support "a" giant flood story, found, as was stated up post, in many, many cultures.

National Geographic Ballard link.  

Again, this is not a YE perspective, but interesting in light of the biblical story.

 

As far as the animals and "room to fit them all," I've heard YEs explain that many species hadn't...oh, what is the word--diversified? I'm sorry, I can't think of it--what I mean is, not every dog (daschund, poodle, etc) was included, just the "basic" dogs. LOL--Maybe you know what I mean. :laugh:

So, not every type of wild cat, for instance, but the ancestor of all wild cats. So, there wasn't a need for as much room as people think.

[TracyP]

what is a clean animal and what is a dirty animal? Why would there be 7 of the clean ones?

 

My understanding is that the clean animals were there so they could be sacrificed at the end of the flood.

 

 

 

I read Genesis 7 as stating that 2 pairs of each unclean animal and 7 pairs of each clean animal should be on the ark. But I always hear 2 and 7 - not 2 pairs and 7 pairs. Which do YEC's believe?

[Onceuponatime]

I'm not YEC, but I will throw this into the mix--

 

There is evidence of a Black Sea flood. No less than Robert Ballard, discoverer of the Titanic, has done much research on this. While it doesn't support YE, it does support "a" giant flood story, found, as was stated up post, in many, many cultures.

National Geographic Ballard link.

Again, this is not a YE perspective, but interesting in light of the biblical story.

 

.

I read about this in a book called Before the Flood by Ian Wilson. It was a quite fascinating theory about a local flood caused by a breach in a land bridge, and very plausible, IMO.

[Ipsey]

Well, I am in a bit of a hurry,and I am not actually a card carrying YEC, but here are some random reasons I take aspects of the story seriously. 

 

1)Nearly EVERY culture in the world, from native Argentina cultures to the ancient Greeks have a flood myth. Where there is smoke there is generally fire.

 

 

 

The smoke of "big flood" doesn't necessarily mean the fire of "global flood" though.

 

Civilizations develop near sources of water, and floods are not uncommon. That these diverse populations have global flood stories might just mean they were all imaginative enough to consider the possibility of a local phenomenon being global.

 

That's all the farther I could take that line of reasoning, myself. 

[HejKatt]

Here's a page which mentions the 'kinds' (vs species) and discusses the 7/7 pairs of clean animals:

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

[Laura Corin]

 

As far as the animals and "room to fit them all," I've heard YEs explain that many species hadn't...oh, what is the word--diversified? I'm sorry, I can't think of it--what I mean is, not every dog (daschund, poodle, etc) was included, just the "basic" dogs. LOL--Maybe you know what I mean. :laugh:

So, not every type of wild cat, for instance, but the ancestor of all wild cats. So, there wasn't a need for as much room as people think.

 

So just a basic ape, not all the apes?

 

L

[Onceuponatime]

So just a basic ape, not all the apes?

 

L

 

Basically. :)

 

And from those basic animals are supposed to have come every single species of animal that has existed in the last  few thousand years. Quite an extraordinary feat. The kangaroos are perplexing though.

[Guest]

My understanding is that the clean animals were there so they could be sacrificed at the end of the flood.

 

 

 

I read Genesis 7 as stating that 2 pairs of each unclean animal and 7 pairs of each clean animal should be on the ark. But I always hear 2 and 7 - not 2 pairs and 7 pairs. Which do YEC's believe?

The relevant scriptures continuously refer to "two; the male and his female." Seven pairs of clean may have been the case, though, as seven (obviously) is not divisible by two, and it still refers to "male and female."

[TracyP]

The relevant scriptures continuously refer to "two; the male and his female." Seven pairs of clean may have been the case, though, as seven (obviously) is not divisible by two, and it still refers to "male and female."

 

This is where I am confused. "Seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female" must mean 14. So to me it follows that "two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female" would mean 4. Why would the Bible's writers not be consistent?

[Laura Corin]

I've always wondered about flying and swimming creatures.  There were some birds on the ark, because the raven and the dove went out from it.  Were those the only birds, or were there ducks on the water and albatrosses in the air?  Did all the water creatures just stay in the water?

 

L

[solascriptura]

I'm not YEC, but I will throw this into the mix--

 

There is evidence of a Black Sea flood. No less than Robert Ballard, discoverer of the Titanic, has done much research on this. While it doesn't support YE, it does support "a" giant flood story, found, as was stated up post, in many, many cultures.

National Geographic Ballard link.

Again, this is not a YE perspective, but interesting in light of the biblical story.

 

As far as the animals and "room to fit them all," I've heard YEs explain that many species hadn't...oh, what is the word--diversified? I'm sorry, I can't think of it--what I mean is, not every dog (daschund, poodle, etc) was included, just the "basic" dogs. LOL--Maybe you know what I mean. :laugh:

So, not every type of wild cat, for instance, but the ancestor of all wild cats. So, there wasn't a need for as much room as people think.

Wouldn't that indicate evolution?

[Lady Florida.]

What about bugs? I've always wondered. 

[Onceuponatime]

I'm confused, So God made the animals twice ? A basic kind before the Flood, and then all the varieties after the Flood ?

 

Or did he make all the kinds before, took basic types on board, and then made all the kinds again after ?

 

Or is there an evolutionary process assumed post-Flood ?

There is a distinction made between "macro evolution" and "micro evolution." It is assumed macro is wrong but micro is an adequate explanation of diversity.

[Onceuponatime]

So micro = a basic cat evolving into different types of cats ? How does YE explain the timetable of that microevolution ? Did God hurry it along ?

I'm not sure how that is explained.

[raptor_dad]

what is a clean animal and what is a dirty animal? Why would there be 7 of the clean ones?

 

See Leviticus... clean animals are ones people can eat.

[Guest]

So micro = a basic cat evolving into different types of cats ? How does YE explain the timetable of that microevolution ? Did God hurry it along ?

If you get confused about how any detail of the flood worked, just chalk it up to this: "God is God and can do what he wants." ;)

 

That was my take-away, anyhow.

[MFG]

So micro = a basic cat evolving into different types of cats ? How does YE explain the timetable of that microevolution ? Did God hurry it along ?

Others are asking that same question.

http://thenaturalhistorian.com/2013/11/29/invoking-super-speed-evolution-how-to-squeeze-10000-bird-species-onto-noahs-ark/

[rebbyribs]

 

2)Pangaea separated at some time, no matter when it happened, and there must have been a huge flood at that time. If it did happen in the last 10,000 years it would have created a huge flood. I dont know that I believe it happened in the last 10,000 years, but I have very real reasons why I do not believe it to be impossible.

 

Wait - do YECs believe in continental drift?  I was under the impression they believed that the continents had always (or for the past 6000 years - same thing, right?) been in their present form.

[Ipsey]

I've always wondered about flying and swimming creatures.  There were some birds on the ark, because the raven and the dove went out from it.  Were those the only birds, or were there ducks on the water and albatrosses in the air?  Did all the water creatures just stay in the water?

 

L

 

 

Additionally, there's the interesting question regarding fresh water vs. salt water life (both plant and animal).  But, then again, if the deity can magic all of the animals into the ark, it can magic that issue somehow too.

 

But, I did find that question really interesting thinking back to when I was a kid and my neighbor kid had a salt water tank and we put some "pond minnows" into it. A very memorable lesson, it was.

[Ausmumof3]

I've been told the Hebrew word for earth where God sent a flood on the whole earth is actually land. Eretz. Same as Abraham saw the whole land of Canaan elsewhere in genesis. So you can have a literal reading that only references a localised flood.

[Guest]

I've been told the Hebrew word for earth where God sent a flood on the whole earth is actually land. Eretz. Same as Abraham saw the whole land of Canaan elsewhere in genesis. So you can have a literal reading that only references a localised flood.

You could, but IME, a YEC does not look for that explanation, because all life on earth was meant to be destroyed. There was no convenient escape to be had by living, say, in the sub-Sahara, or among the northern folks (if there were any then).

[Anne in CA]

Wait - do YECs believe in continental drift?  I was under the impression they believed that the continents had always (or for the past 6000 years - same thing, right?) been in their present form.

As I said, I am not really a YEC, however I do not discount the story of Noah as strictly allegory. I would love to have time to really research and form an opinion, but I believe that the planet Earth as we know it is much older than we might ever guess, but that around 10,000BC God "started over" and that he "started over" again with Noah, and that next time he will "start over" again with fire. I think it is very interesting that nuclear holocaust would be the perfect picture of the world as we know it ending the way the Bible indicates it will. I am not living in a bomb shelter, I am not even worried, lol, I just believe it is interesting that the most likely way for the world to end all at once is very similar to the one predicted in Revelation. 

 

I also believe it is amusing that the Bible says God made man from dirt, and that evolution says man came from primordial ooze. I just don't think the two explanations for life are that different to me, a science ignoramus. True science does not hurt my faith at all. It only enhances it. I only wish I had had a good enough science education to really understand some things now. I tried to give my children a better science education than I had, but sadly that was a real gap they had even though I spent a ton of money on science curriculum and projects. I don't think they would have learned more science in ps, though. Ps failed me utterly in science and I don't know anyone who learned much science in ps. 

[Dory]

I'm confused, So God made the animals twice ? A basic kind before the Flood, and then all the varieties after the Flood ?

 

Or did he make all the kinds before, took basic types on board, and then made all the kinds again after ?

 

Or is there an evolutionary process assumed post-Flood ?

 

 

So micro = a basic cat evolving into different types of cats ? How does YE explain the timetable of that microevolution ? Did God hurry it along ?

I don't necessarily believe this as I don't know where I stand on this and I haven't cared enough to really research everything yet.

 

I remember vaguely a lesson on the pepper moths and how they changed through just a few generations, and a few dog breeds and how they were able to be consistently different in just a few years as an example of how quickly changes within a species can happen and cause diversity within that species. I remember my mom talking about pictures we see of horses and dogs from ancient greece or something like that and how they are different then what we have now.

[Kerileanne99]

I'm confused, So God made the animals twice ? A basic kind before the Flood, and then all the varieties after the Flood ?

 

Or did he make all the kinds before, took basic types on board, and then made all the kinds again after ?

 

Or is there an evolutionary process assumed post-Flood ?

Not to mention it begs the question WHY would He bother with the ark and the animals at all if he could/did simply recreate them?

[Happygrl]

Do YEC believe that the dinosaurs all died in the flood? I heard that somewhere, just wondering if it is true.

 

I'm not YEC but the ones I know who are YEC in the most devout way and have given it thought (rather than just going off of what they've been told) say that every variation of dinosaur was on the boat, but that the largest ones weren't in mature form.  They don't believe that different dinosaurs lived at different times.  A few of them also don't believe there are as many different kinds of dinosaurs as science would have us believe.  

[Chris in VA]

No time to quote the posters, sorry--

 

As far as the "conflicting" stories (remember, I'm just sharing info, not my personal opinions), some believe there are strands of different stories woven together in Genesis. And some believe there is one story, but the ancient way of telling stories was to give a statement then repeat with more detail; the explanation is that these were oral stories first, and that structure (statement then more detail) helped others remember and retain the story. Josh McDowell has a good explanation of the latter in Evidence That Demands a Verdict, and resources used in University of The South's Education for Ministry have a good explanation of the former, FWIW.

 

Also, the waterbirds would not have survived outside the ark because all plant life was destroyed. The water was on the earth about a year, according to some. The fish and sea creatures, however, would have  live. I never figured out why they weren't subject to the same death as the land animals.

 

And yes, I've heard some YE say "just the basic" animals--apes included, Laura. But only some of the YEs I've encountered believe that.

 

 

 

 

[Aelwydd]

I don't necessarily believe this as I don't know where I stand on this and I haven't cared enough to really research everything yet.

 

I remember vaguely a lesson on the pepper moths and how they changed through just a few generations, and a few dog breeds and how they were able to be consistently different in just a few years as an example of how quickly changes within a species can happen and cause diversity within that species. I remember my mom talking about pictures we see of horses and dogs from ancient greece or something like that and how they are different then what we have now.

Canines are interesting because they have a particular genetic elasticity, if you will, that has permitted the incredible diversity of breeds in a relatively short period of time. However, felines, OTOH, and many more species of animals are much more genetically difficult to modify in similar ways.

[Guest]

Not to mention it begs the question WHY would He bother with the ark and the animals at all if he could/did simply recreate them?

Yeah. That bothered me.

 

I also have this funny visual in my head wherein animals are leaving the ark; carnivores, herbivores walking off...and the cheetahs saying, "Damn, I'm hungry...oh, look! Antelopes!" ;)

[poppy]

The question I've heard and not figured out is - there was the first ever rainbow after the flood.  Does that mean it never rained until the flood, or does that mean that light did not produce rainbows until that time?

[Onceuponatime]

The question I've heard and not figured out is - there was the first ever rainbow after the flood. Does that mean it never rained until the flood, or does that mean that light did not produce rainbows until that time?

The common YE interpretation is that it had not rained before but the earth was watered by a mist from the ground as it mentions in Genesis.