YEC explanation of Ark story? serious question

[Kerileanne99]

One of the most interesting arguments I ever encountered was by a six-year-old boy. I am trying to find the link, but basically he asked about the birds...breathing and flying. His question was if the entire world was covered in water, all the way up to the Himalayan mountains (as per fossilized shells), how could the birds breath or fly in that atmosphere? For that matter, how could anyone/thing on the ark breath? Was there an atmosphere?

For some reason this gives me visions of everyone in the ark fitted with supplementary oxygen...huge ones and teeny, tiny miniature ones:)

[Chris in VA]

LOL at your visual!

 

I don't get why would the atmosphere be different, though.

 

Also, some YE say that the mountains were not that high at the start of the flood. There was much ground moving/mountains etc so the taller ones could have gotten taller as the rain ended; i.e., the ground was covered and then the land continued heaving and taller mountains were made (away from where the ark was--which would give time for the re-greening of the land so that the dove could find the olive branch or whatever). But there is some contradiction in the text re that.

 

 

[Dory]

Canines are interesting because they have a particular genetic elasticity, if you will, that has permitted the incredible diversity of breeds in a relatively short period of time. However, felines, OTOH, and many more species of animals are much more genetically difficult to modify in similar ways.

 

With Savannah cats I believe it takes 5 generations before their aren't fertility issues when they are crossed with domestic cats. Bengals are much the same. There have actually been numerous different crosses, some with success and some with a little less success (such as the liger and tigon who, although not always sterile, tend to not do well and if they do have offspring they tend to be rather unhealthy).

I have wondered if there would be a split of sorts between genetic types as some types of cats will change and interbreed easier then others I suppose just as some types of horse like animals will interbreed and change better then others.

[Laura Corin]

LOL at your visual!

 

I don't get why would the atmosphere be different, though.

 

 

I think the idea was that without plants the oxygen in the atmosphere would be depleted.  I don't know how fast that would happen though...

 

L

[Kerileanne99]

I think the idea was that without plants the oxygen in the atmosphere would be depleted. I don't know how fast that would happen though...

 

L

Yes, and the fact that there is much less oxygen at high altitudes. Most birds cannot fly at that altitude as it requires much faster flapping of wings and huge metabolic output...not to mention less oxygen to utilize for breathing. If I remember right, he had read about the bar-headed goose, a bird with adaptations that enable it to fly over the Himalayas.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-goose-that-flies-over-the-himalayas-180051476/

[albeto.]

As for the continents, it is the time scale of continental drift that is at issue. The incredible breadth and destruction of the flood, including steam geysers and utter destruction of the face of the earth, seems to best fit a description involve runaway subduction of the continental plates and a profound difference in the shape and distribution of the landmass after the event, hence the common ancestry and species similarities among disparate landmasses. 

 

So like, continental surfboards whooshing through the oceans?

[Onceuponatime]

So like, continental surfboards whooshing through the oceans?

All I can picture is a boat full of sea sick animals and people. It would have been quite a ride. But then again there was all that water to sluice everything down.

[Mergath]

So just out of curiosity, how do YECs reconcile the fact that a nearly identical flood story (but predating the biblical flood story by hundreds of years) can be found in the Epic of Gilgamesh?  

 

If you're unfamiliar with it, here's the summary from wikipedia:

 

Utnapishtim explains that the gods decided to send a great flood. To save Utnapishtim the god Ea told him to build a boat. He gave him precise dimensions, and it was sealed with pitch and bitumen. His entire family went aboard together with his craftsmen and "all the animals of the field". A violent storm then arose which caused the terrified gods to retreat to the heavens. Ishtar lamented the wholesale destruction of humanity, and the other gods wept beside her. The storm lasted six days and nights, after which "all the human beings turned to clay". Utnapishtim weeps when he sees the destruction. His boat lodges on a mountain, and he releases a dove, a swallow, and a raven. When the raven fails to return, he opens the ark and frees its inhabitants. Utnapishtim offers a sacrifice to the gods, who smell the sweet savor and gather around. Ishtar vows that just as she will never forget the brilliant necklace that hangs around her neck, she will always remember this time. When Enlil arrives, angry that there are survivors, she condemns him for instigating the flood. Ea also castigates him for sending a disproportionate punishment. Enlil blesses Utnapishtim and his wife, and rewards them with eternal life.

[Dory]

So just out of curiosity, how do YECs reconcile the fact that a nearly identical flood story (but predating the biblical flood story by hundreds of years) can be found in the Epic of Gilgamesh?  

 

If you're unfamiliar with it, here's the summary from wikipedia:

 

Utnapishtim explains that the gods decided to send a great flood. To save Utnapishtim the god Ea told him to build a boat. He gave him precise dimensions, and it was sealed with pitch and bitumen. His entire family went aboard together with his craftsmen and "all the animals of the field". A violent storm then arose which caused the terrified gods to retreat to the heavens. Ishtar lamented the wholesale destruction of humanity, and the other gods wept beside her. The storm lasted six days and nights, after which "all the human beings turned to clay". Utnapishtim weeps when he sees the destruction. His boat lodges on a mountain, and he releases a dove, a swallow, and a raven. When the raven fails to return, he opens the ark and frees its inhabitants. Utnapishtim offers a sacrifice to the gods, who smell the sweet savor and gather around. Ishtar vows that just as she will never forget the brilliant necklace that hangs around her neck, she will always remember this time. When Enlil arrives, angry that there are survivors, she condemns him for instigating the flood. Ea also castigates him for sending a disproportionate punishment. Enlil blesses Utnapishtim and his wife, and rewards them with eternal life.

 

I'm not sure what there is to reconcile. There are a few different flood stories out there. If a flood happened, many cultures would carry the story and it would turn into myth and legend type stories over time.

[Mergath]

I'm not sure what there is to reconcile. There are a few different flood stories out there. If a flood happened, many cultures would carry the story and it would turn into myth and legend type stories over time.

 

But for the YECs who believe the bible to be completely inerrant, wouldn't a pre-existing flood story with an identical plot but differing characters and gods be an issue?

[December]

Yes, and the fact that there is much less oxygen at high altitudes. Most birds cannot fly at that altitude as it requires much faster flapping of wings and huge metabolic output...not to mention less oxygen to utilize for breathing. If I remember right, he had read about the bar-headed goose, a bird with adaptations that enable it to fly over the Himalayas.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-goose-that-flies-over-the-himalayas-180051476/

 

 

And people can only live for relatively short intervals that high up.  That's why when people climb Mt. Everest, they have to summit quickly before they succumb to the effects of the altitude. 

[December]

But for the YECs who believe the bible to be completely inerrant, wouldn't a pre-existing flood story with an identical plot but differing characters and gods be an issue?

 

Not YEC, but I don't see why it would.  You couldn't expect people who were uninspired by God to keep all the details straight, right?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The mental gymnastics required to accept a YEC belief simply blows my mind.

[TracyP]

As for the continents, it is the time scale of continental drift that is at issue. The incredible breadth and destruction of the flood, including steam geysers and utter destruction of the face of the earth, seems to best fit a description involve runaway subduction of the continental plates and a profound difference in the shape and distribution of the landmass after the event, hence the common ancestry and species similarities among disparate landmasses. The issue would the speed at which this happened - rapidly versus gradually. Looking at the same current body of evidence through a lens of literal time frames in Genesis simply requires assuming that to fit one to the other means the timeframe was accelerated beyond what we see today, hence the catastrophic nature of it. And that would be perfectly within the capabilities of God. And this drift continued for several centuries after the flood in a slowing manner, which would explain the apparent speed of how human populations made it to every landmass within a few generations. It wasn't an instant start and stop process, and neither was it millennia.

 

 

 

So the continents (Pangaea) were first broken apart during the flood. This happened very quickly then slowed over hundreds of years, giving the appearance of a longer time frame. People and animals were able to populate these continents because they were relatively close to Mt. Ararat. Is that right?

 

Question to anyone... I believe the YE understanding is that the last ice age was caused by atmospheric changes after the flood. How does that ice age and the Tower of Babel fit into this time frame. That is, in what order did these things happen: flood, ice age, building of the Tower of Babel, and populating other landmasses. And how long (very roughly, obviously) did each of these take - from a YE pov.

 

 

 

 

 

[albeto.]

Not YEC, but I don't see why it would.  You couldn't expect people who were uninspired by God to keep all the details straight, right?

 

It isn't a matter of unbelievers getting the story wrong after the fact. It's a matter of the story originating elsewhere, blatantly adapted by the Jews to fit their own religious constructs. It's the idea that the Sumerians pre-stole the story of an event that hadn't yet happened. So, how does that work? Did God offer a foreshadowing of what was to come without actually sharing the whole point of the story - not having faith in him is disastrous? Did Satan whisper ideas into these ancient poets' ears while they were sleeping? Did he give them visions? And if so, that opens up all kinds of practical problems, like what does that mean about God and/or Satan's abilities to manipulate our neural pathways and brain cells? What kind of free will is that if God and/or Satan can string us along like some complex marionettes, fitting ideas into our heads and pulling the strings that way? How can a Christian trust anything they are thinking if God and/or Satan can get in there and inspire them to think foreign thoughts?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I still get stuck on the dinosaur issue.  Creatures that large (some who which would be incredibly dangerous and would have had an impact on the herding of domesticated animals) would have certainly warranted more than a couple of obscure references in the Bible, and the properties of dragons in mythology are very different than what we know about dinosaurs.  We have cave paintings of extinct creatures yet we don't have any of T-Rex.  Putting that all together makes the YEC answers to that matter seem like a monumental stretch. 

[Dory]

It isn't a matter of unbelievers getting the story wrong after the fact. It's a matter of the story originating elsewhere, blatantly adapted by the Jews to fit their own religious constructs. It's the idea that the Sumerians pre-stole the story of an event that hadn't yet happened. So, how does that work? Did God offer a foreshadowing of what was to come without actually sharing the whole point of the story - not having faith in him is disastrous? Did Satan whisper ideas into these ancient poets' ears while they were sleeping? Did he give them visions? And if so, that opens up all kinds of practical problems, like what does that mean about God and/or Satan's abilities to manipulate our neural pathways and brain cells? What kind of free will is that if God and/or Satan can string us along like some complex marionettes, fitting ideas into our heads and pulling the strings that way? How can a Christian trust anything they are thinking if God and/or Satan can get in there and inspire them to think foreign thoughts?

 

The story obviously had happened, it just hadn't been written down by a Jew. Why would Satan have to whisper ideas about a story that would have probably been told verbally for many generations after the flood.

[Dory]

But for the YECs who believe the bible to be completely inerrant, wouldn't a pre-existing flood story with an identical plot but differing characters and gods be an issue?

 

I do believe C.S. Lewis talks about this in one of his books, but I can't remember details. There are similarities in most mythology stories around the world. Mankind holds onto  or searches for truth, but without God the details tend to stretch and change over time as they do with any story. It's more about people who rejected God still have stories that were passed down to them from history, but now have been changed to match their rejection of God.

 

I think that's kinda how it's explained anyway.

[Embassy]

But for the YECs who believe the bible to be completely inerrant, wouldn't a pre-existing flood story with an identical plot but differing characters and gods be an issue?

Not if the flood was an actual event.  Oral history and the movement of people across the earth would account for the differing stories.

[Embassy]

It isn't a matter of unbelievers getting the story wrong after the fact. It's a matter of the story originating elsewhere, blatantly adapted by the Jews to fit their own religious constructs. It's the idea that the Sumerians pre-stole the story of an event that hadn't yet happened. So, how does that work? Did God offer a foreshadowing of what was to come without actually sharing the whole point of the story - not having faith in him is disastrous? Did Satan whisper ideas into these ancient poets' ears while they were sleeping? Did he give them visions? And if so, that opens up all kinds of practical problems, like what does that mean about God and/or Satan's abilities to manipulate our neural pathways and brain cells? What kind of free will is that if God and/or Satan can string us along like some complex marionettes, fitting ideas into our heads and pulling the strings that way? How can a Christian trust anything they are thinking if God and/or Satan can get in there and inspire them to think foreign thoughts?

 

I don't believe YEC believe that the Sumerian culture was before the flood or maybe I'm not understanding your statement correctly.  

[Chris in VA]

I don't believe YEC believe that the Sumerian culture was before the flood or maybe I'm not understanding your statement correctly.  

 

Yes, and the Jews weren't a "culture" until Abram. Of course, their lineage is traced to Shem (and then back from Noah, etc.) So the flood story and prior stories are not Jewish, per se, but the story of all humanity.

[albeto.]

The story obviously had happened, it just hadn't been written down by a Jew. Why would Satan have to whisper ideas about a story that would have probably been told verbally for many generations after the flood.

 

Because the epic of Gilgamesh predates the story of Noah. However, Embassy reminds me that doesn't matter. 

[Chris in VA]

Because the epic of Gilgamesh predates the story of Noah. However, Embassy reminds me that doesn't matter. 

 

Forgive me for being thick (a common occurrence)...

 

Do you mean that we know that Gilgamesh was written in a certain time frame, and YEs think the earth isn't that old, so the story of Gil comes before Noah?

[albeto.]

Forgive me for being thick (a common occurrence)...

 

Do you mean that we know that Gilgamesh was written in a certain time frame, and YEs think the earth isn't that old, so the story of Gil comes before Noah?

 

I think it's the other way around. I think it's according to the arguments that support the YEC claim, all culture evolved after the flood, so the Epic of Gilgamesh comes after the story of Noah's Ark. Embassy reminded me that YEC proponants don't believe that the Sumerian culture existed before the flood. That makes sense of course, because all culture would have been wiped out for being violent and grieving God. 106 years after Noah's family effectively repopulates the earth, God confuses all humanity by creating different languages. As I understand it, this implies the Sumerian culture couldn't have existed prior to the flood, according to YEC claims. Evidence to the contrary would be naturally dismissed because if there's a discrepancy, the bible is given preference. In other words, evidence that suggests the Sumerian mythology predates the Jewish mythology doesn't count. 

[Guest]

Did Satan whisper ideas into these ancient poets' ears while they were sleeping? Did he give them visions? And if so, that opens up all kinds of practical problems, like what does that mean about God and/or Satan's abilities to manipulate our neural pathways and brain cells? What kind of free will is that if God and/or Satan can string us along like some complex marionettes, fitting ideas into our heads and pulling the strings that way? How can a Christian trust anything they are thinking if God and/or Satan can get in there and inspire them to think foreign thoughts?

Well, this is why Dumbledore urged Harry to practice Occlumency, so Voldemort would not plant false visions in his head.

 

 

Ooops! Wrong story!

[Chris in VA]

I think it's the other way around. I think it's according to the arguments that support the YEC claim, all culture evolved after the flood, so the Epic of Gilgamesh comes after the story of Noah's Ark. Embassy reminded me that YEC proponants don't believe that the Sumerian culture existed before the flood. That makes sense of course, because all culture would have been wiped out for being violent and grieving God. 106 years after Noah's family effectively repopulates the earth, God confuses all humanity by creating different languages. As I understand it, this implies the Sumerian culture couldn't have existed prior to the flood, according to YEC claims.(COMMENT: Why is that a problem?) Evidence to the contrary would be naturally dismissed because if there's a discrepancy, the bible is given preference. In other words, evidence that suggests the Sumerian mythology predates the Jewish mythology doesn't count. 

 

That's kinda what I'm awkwardly saying--

 

So I guess I'm asking, why is there a problem for nonYEC peeps to have Noah come first? What is the evidence that the Jewish mythology came later? I mean, it was oral tradition taken from not-yet-defined-as-Jewish people.

It was written down later, by Jews, but why does it have to be that the story itself was way after Gilgamesh? Why can't there have been one story that got changed by other cultures?

[albeto.]

That's kinda what I'm awkwardly saying--

 

So I guess I'm asking, why is there a problem for nonYEC peeps to have Noah come first? What is the evidence that the Jewish mythology came later? I mean, it was oral tradition taken from not-yet-defined-as-Jewish people.

It was written down later, by Jews, but why does it have to be that the story itself was way after Gilgamesh? Why can't there have been one story that got changed by other cultures?

 

Only because the evidence suggests a different timeline, a different narrative of history. 

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

So I guess I'm asking, why is there a problem for nonYEC peeps to have Noah come first? What is the evidence that the Jewish mythology came later? I mean, it was oral tradition taken from not-yet-defined-as-Jewish people.

It was written down later, by Jews, but why does it have to be that the story itself was way after Gilgamesh? Why can't there have been one story that got changed by other cultures?

 

Because archaeological evidence matters to us.

[Anne in CA]

It isn't a matter of unbelievers getting the story wrong after the fact. It's a matter of the story originating elsewhere, blatantly adapted by the Jews to fit their own religious constructs. It's the idea that the Sumerians pre-stole the story of an event that hadn't yet happened. So, how does that work? Did God offer a foreshadowing of what was to come without actually sharing the whole point of the story - not having faith in him is disastrous? Did Satan whisper ideas into these ancient poets' ears while they were sleeping? Did he give them visions? And if so, that opens up all kinds of practical problems, like what does that mean about God and/or Satan's abilities to manipulate our neural pathways and brain cells? What kind of free will is that if God and/or Satan can string us along like some complex marionettes, fitting ideas into our heads and pulling the strings that way? How can a Christian trust anything they are thinking if God and/or Satan can get in there and inspire them to think foreign thoughts?

Either the event happened, or it did not. I wasn't there. However, even if the Sumerians wrote the story down first, which they should have as their civilization predates Judaism, Christians have zero reason to be insecure about this point.The silliness of stealing a predated story is not something I have to own, lol.

 

For anyone who cares what I think, for what it is worth, the following paragraph is why I am not concerned with ancient religions and their story being so close to Judaism. Albeto, there is no point in arguing with why I believe what I believe, but if you wish to make me look silly to your friends it shouldn't be hard, lol. I am not so self important that I need to be right about everything, so fire away if you need to, you just won't change my mind without real logic.I have already changed my mind numerous times about my religious beliefs, but anyone who belittles me doesn't have influence in my thought process. 

 

It is probable to me that after the flood the civilization the settled the Sumerian valley wrote down their own history of not just the flood but all things to do with their relationship with God and each other. The ancient Sumerians quickly drifted from their relationship with God (the Tower of Babble) but the only template their had for their pagan worship was the ancient worship of God. That is why their religious practices are so close to the practices God later instilled in the descendants of Abraham. I believe that Satan cannot create anything, he can only distort what God creates, therefore, all religions and their stories are going to look similar. This is actually reassuring to me, it does not threaten me. I also believe that God gave Moses a real and inspired history, and that they History of Moses is divine revelation, and different from myths. I have studied enough myths to feel secure that the Bible is actually very different from ancient myths of any sort, even though many stories are very similar. The stories are similar because they happened. The Bible being written after some of them is just not a problem for me at all, God knows the truth, He told it to Moses, Moses wrote it down. 

[Slache]

I'm not YEC, but I will throw this into the mix--

 

There is evidence of a Black Sea flood. No less than Robert Ballard, discoverer of the Titanic, has done much research on this. While it doesn't support YE, it does support "a" giant flood story, found, as was stated up post, in many, many cultures.

National Geographic Ballard link.  

Again, this is not a YE perspective, but interesting in light of the biblical story.

 

As far as the animals and "room to fit them all," I've heard YEs explain that many species hadn't...oh, what is the word--diversified? I'm sorry, I can't think of it--what I mean is, not every dog (daschund, poodle, etc) was included, just the "basic" dogs. LOL--Maybe you know what I mean. :laugh:

So, not every type of wild cat, for instance, but the ancestor of all wild cats. So, there wasn't a need for as much room as people think.

 

The ark was 440 feet in length by 70 feet in width by 45 feet in height, assuming a cubit is 17.5 inches. This would give a total deck area of about 95,000 square feet, with a total volume of almost 1.4 million cubic feet. The ark could have carried 125,000 sheep, sheep being the average sized animal, but it only needed to carry about 80,000, leaving an entire deck for Noah and his family.

 

I've always wondered about flying and swimming creatures.  There were some birds on the ark, because the raven and the dove went out from it.  Were those the only birds, or were there ducks on the water and albatrosses in the air?  Did all the water creatures just stay in the water?

 

L

Birds were on the ark as stated in Genesis 7:8.

 

What about bugs? I've always wondered. 

Bugs are animals in a biblical sense. They would have been along for the ride.

 

Additionally, there's the interesting question regarding fresh water vs. salt water life (both plant and animal).  But, then again, if the deity can magic all of the animals into the ark, it can magic that issue somehow too.

 

But, I did find that question really interesting thinking back to when I was a kid and my neighbor kid had a salt water tank and we put some "pond minnows" into it. A very memorable lesson, it was.

I believe that everything was fresh water at the time and things have slowly gotten saltier due to continental drift.

 

Not to mention it begs the question WHY would He bother with the ark and the animals at all if he could/did simply recreate them?

He promised to send his son through Adam in Genesis 3. Killing all of Adam's kids would have meant braking his promise.

[albeto.]

Either the event happened, or it did not. I wasn't there. However, even if the Sumerians wrote the story down first, which they should have as their civilization predates Judaism, Christians have zero reason to be insecure about this point.The silliness of stealing a predated story is not something I have to own, lol.

 

For anyone who cares what I think, for what it is worth, the following paragraph is why I am not concerned with ancient religions and their story being so close to Judaism. Albeto, there is no point in arguing with why I believe what I believe, but if you wish to make me look silly to your friends it shouldn't be hard, lol. I am not so self important that I need to be right about everything, so fire away if you need to, you just won't change my mind without real logic.I have already changed my mind numerous times about my religious beliefs, but anyone who belittles me doesn't have influence in my thought process. 

 

It is probable to me that after the flood the civilization the settled the Sumerian valley wrote down their own history of not just the flood but all things to do with their relationship with God and each other. The ancient Sumerians quickly drifted from their relationship with God (the Tower of Babble) but the only template their had for their pagan worship was the ancient worship of God. That is why their religious practices are so close to the practices God later instilled in the descendants of Abraham. I believe that Satan cannot create anything, he can only distort what God creates, therefore, all religions and their stories are going to look similar. This is actually reassuring to me, it does not threaten me. I also believe that God gave Moses a real and inspired history, and that they History of Moses is divine revelation, and different from myths. I have studied enough myths to feel secure that the Bible is actually very different from ancient myths of any sort, even though many stories are very similar. The stories are similar because they happened. The Bible being written after some of them is just not a problem for me at all, God knows the truth, He told it to Moses, Moses wrote it down.

 

 

I have no interest in persuading, belittling, or ridiculing you. I want that to be clear. This thread is about explaining Noah's Ark from the perspective of the proponent of YEC and I have no interest in deviating from that. 

 

If you don't mind my asking a follow-up question, what inspires you to change your mind about your religious beliefs? Can you give an example of something you once believed to be true but now don't? 

[Aelwydd]

With Savannah cats I believe it takes 5 generations before their aren't fertility issues when they are crossed with domestic cats. Bengals are much the same. There have actually been numerous different crosses, some with success and some with a little less success (such as the liger and tigon who, although not always sterile, tend to not do well and if they do have offspring they tend to be rather unhealthy).

I have wondered if there would be a split of sorts between genetic types as some types of cats will change and interbreed easier then others I suppose just as some types of horse like animals will interbreed and change better then others.

Yes, but what you're talking about is still quite minimal change in various body types, behaviors, specializations, etc. With dogs, you have huge diversity between breeds in size, shape, intelligence, work abilities, hunting abilities, speed, etc. Dogs are really pretty amazing for their genetic adaptability.

[Anne in CA]

I have no interest in persuading, belittling, or ridiculing you. I want that to be clear. This thread is about explaining Noah's Ark from the perspective of the proponent of YEC and I have no interest in deviating from that. 

 

If you don't mind my asking a follow-up question, what inspires you to change your mind about your religious beliefs? Can you give an example of something you once believed to be true but now don't? 

I do not mind a follow up question at all. I change my mind about my religious beliefs as I gain new insights and information in formats I can integrate with what I know to be true. I tried to be an atheist, but had a profound spiritual experience that changed my beliefs.Since then I have undergone many changes in what version of Christianity I practice, and I expect/ hope to make many more changes in my lifetime.

 

When I hear of a new idea I turn it over in my head and pray and see if it resonates and reconciles with other things I know to be true. I once believed that humanity would be able to save themselves through education and good will with no help from a creator or higher power if one existed at all. I no longer believe that. I changed my mind over a long period of time because I see no evidence that education improves the character of people enough to change humanity and I see a lot of evidence that power is generally abused by the best of people as soon as they get more than they can handle so I do not see how humanity could ever govern themselves wisely with no spiritual help. But I used to believe very differently.

[Chris in VA]

Because archaeological evidence matters to us.

 

ITA. I am not YEC. But I do ask, what is the archeological evidence that shows the Jewish take on the Flood did NOT develop independently of the Sumerian Flood story? And, what evidence is there that negates a common source story?  Many researchers that are not YEC believe the biblical account developed as a parallel story, not a direct "modification." (See The Archeological Study Bible, page 13--and I hope I've sited that correctly, per our new rules!).

 

But perhaps I should bow out. I am not coming to this discussion as a YEC, and so belaboring this part of the discussion could be detrimental to the OP's objectives for asking the original question--sorry about that.

[Dory]

I think it's the other way around. I think it's according to the arguments that support the YEC claim, all culture evolved after the flood, so the Epic of Gilgamesh comes after the story of Noah's Ark. Embassy reminded me that YEC proponants don't believe that the Sumerian culture existed before the flood. That makes sense of course, because all culture would have been wiped out for being violent and grieving God. 106 years after Noah's family effectively repopulates the earth, God confuses all humanity by creating different languages. As I understand it, this implies the Sumerian culture couldn't have existed prior to the flood, according to YEC claims. Evidence to the contrary would be naturally dismissed because if there's a discrepancy, the bible is given preference. In other words, evidence that suggests the Sumerian mythology predates the Jewish mythology doesn't count. 

 

I'm confused. The date for the Epic of Gilgamesh would line up with when YEC tend to ballpark the time frame for the flood. If a Sumerian dude wrote a story about the flood down before a Jewish dude had I'm not sure how one cancels the other out. Are you saying that the one that was written first should be considered the most accurate?

[albeto.]

I'm confused. The date for the Epic of Gilgamesh would line up with when YEC tend to ballpark the time frame for the flood.

 

Yes, it would.

 

If a Sumerian dude wrote a story about the flood down before a Jewish dude had I'm not sure how one cancels the other out.

 

If the biblical account was plagiarized from the Sumerian mythology, it would refute the claims of YEC. 

 

Are you saying that the one that was written first should be considered the most accurate?

 

I'm saying objective evidence should be considered for accuracy, not religious claims. Religious sources used to support religious claims is circular argumentation at best, and are never considered for historical research. 

[albeto.]

I do not mind a follow up question at all. I change my mind about my religious beliefs as I gain new insights and information in formats I can integrate with what I know to be true. I tried to be an atheist, but had a profound spiritual experience that changed my beliefs.Since then I have undergone many changes in what version of Christianity I practice, and I expect/ hope to make many more changes in my lifetime.

 

When I hear of a new idea I turn it over in my head and pray and see if it resonates and reconciles with other things I know to be true. I once believed that humanity would be able to save themselves through education and good will with no help from a creator or higher power if one existed at all. I no longer believe that. I changed my mind over a long period of time because I see no evidence that education improves the character of people enough to change humanity and I see a lot of evidence that power is generally abused by the best of people as soon as they get more than they can handle so I do not see how humanity could ever govern themselves wisely with no spiritual help. But I used to believe very differently.

 

This is common practice among adherents to religious claims. I find it interesting that one person can use this methodology to assume their conclusions are accurate, while others use this same methodology to conclude very different beliefs. I'm not suggesting you're wrong or right, just that this methodology is trusted by so many people, and yet is unreliable to produce consistent results. 

[Slartibartfast]

I think it's the other way around. I think it's according to the arguments that support the YEC claim, all culture evolved after the flood, so the Epic of Gilgamesh comes after the story of Noah's Ark. Embassy reminded me that YEC proponants don't believe that the Sumerian culture existed before the flood. That makes sense of course, because all culture would have been wiped out for being violent and grieving God. 106 years after Noah's family effectively repopulates the earth, God confuses all humanity by creating different languages. As I understand it, this implies the Sumerian culture couldn't have existed prior to the flood, according to YEC claims. Evidence to the contrary would be naturally dismissed because if there's a discrepancy, the bible is given preference. In other words, evidence that suggests the Sumerian mythology predates the Jewish mythology doesn't count.

There are many oral traditions in Judaism as there are other cultures/religions. Many of those oral histories have survived for quite some time.

 

The time period that something was actually written isn't necessarily the time period of the story itself.

 

It isn't like in journalism where one has an exclusive and others have to sit on the sidelines.

 

I just wanted to address that. I am not YEC.