College textbooks part rant, part question

[Ginevra]

I attend CC. I know the expense of textbooks has been outrageous for years, but I would really like to know why this problem is getting no better (at least in the U.S./where I live/at this college). The college has been paying lip service to "making the textbooks more affordable" for several years, but nothing they do amounts to anything more than pencil-bag change.

 

Tactic 1: the publishers revise the editions, but the content is not altered in any important way. Fortunately, I have had a few profs who do not require a brand-new edition, so they let the students get by with an older or used book.

 

Tactic 2: the college has been offering rentals for a while now, but they are only slightly cheaper than ownership, and you can't highlight. Also, it is a lost expense if you have to return it.

 

Tactic 3: the college offers used texts. See above complaint. The used books are not far cheaper. The only way to score a deal is to buy used from an outside source. This is how I have gotten around costs many times; I buy used from Textbooks.com or Amazon and then re-sell when I am finished. Only now, I feel like the college is trying to put the Kabosh on this activity because of...

 

Tactic 4: offering the "textbooks" in loose-leaf format. *steam coming from my ears* If this would make them really inexpensive, I could get on board with it, but all it does is make a $224 book a mere$195 instead. Plus, now it is practically guaranteed not to last for more than a semester, so re-selling it doesn't look like a great option.

 

So, this is a long rant, but here are my actual questions:

 

1) what, exactly, is behind the college textbook racket? Is it price gouging? Is there some legitimate reason these materials are so expensive? And,

 

2) is it the same way at non-US colleges? Is there a difference in the US between public and private colleges? Is there a regional difference?

[RoughCollie]

IMO, it is just another way for colleges and publishers to get their hands on student loan, grant, and scholarship money.

[Annie G]

I'll add to your rant. Our CC often waits until a week before classes begin to list the required books- and buying used from Amazon often takes a good bit longer than a week. We've had it take three lots of times.   And we've found that the cc will list required books and then CHANGE THAT LIST at the last minute. 

 

 

The flip side is that dd attends a pricey (for us!) school and they don't seem to use textbooks. Now, she's an Asian Studies major so her experience is probably far different than a biology or math major...but she's taking a Chinese World Affairs and Chinese Econ classes and both have regular books- less than $20 on Amazon.   Last year she spent about $200 for books.  Many of her classes just put the materials online- the instructor pulls from different sources, pays the author's fees, and puts it out there for students at no extra charge to them. 

[Mergath]

I really think they charge the absolute maximum amount the market will bear without students completely revolting.  The prices are obscene, and from everything I know about publishing and college, no, there is no legitimate reason.  

 

If I ever go back to college, I'll be downloading pirated electronic editions of the textbooks from a torrent site.  Is it legal?  Nope.  But it also shouldn't be legal to gouge already-broke college students just because you can.  

[Laurel-in-CA]

I attend CC. I know the expense of textbooks has been outrageous for years, but I would really like to know why this problem is getting no better (at least in the U.S./where I live/at this college). The college has been paying lip service to "making the textbooks more affordable" for several years, but nothing they do amounts to anything more than pencil-bag change.

 

Tactic 1: the publishers revise the editions, but the content is not altered in any important way. Fortunately, I have had a few profs who do not require a brand-new edition, so they let the students get by with an older or used book.

 

Tactic 2: the college has been offering rentals for a while now, but they are only slightly cheaper than ownership, and you can't highlight. Also, it is a lost expense if you have to return it.

 

Tactic 3: the college offers used texts. See above complaint. The used books are not far cheaper. The only way to score a deal is to buy used from an outside source. This is how I have gotten around costs many times; I buy used from Textbooks.com or Amazon and then re-sell when I am finished. Only now, I feel like the college is trying to put the Kabosh on this activity because of...

 

Tactic 4: offering the "textbooks" in loose-leaf format. *steam coming from my ears* If this would make them really inexpensive, I could get on board with it, but all it does is make a $224 book a mere$195 instead. Plus, now it is practically guaranteed not to last for more than a semester, so re-selling it doesn't look like a great option.

 

So, this is a long rant, but here are my actual questions:

 

1) what, exactly, is behind the college textbook racket? Is it price gouging? Is there some legitimate reason these materials are so expensive? And,

 

2) is it the same way at non-US colleges? Is there a difference in the US between public and private colleges? Is there a regional difference?

 

DRAMATIC differences. DS had an advertising text for this semester - $170 new, $2.50 previous edition. Teacher ok'd previous edition. Teachers can help undermine the price racket if they so choose.

[chocolatechip]

I'm with you on this one. Ugh. 

 

I had a chemistry text for this semester. Old? $0.75. New? Right around $200.00. 

 

Thankfully the prof let us use the old one. 

[shawthorne44]

Back when textbooks cost half what they cost now (which I still thought was outrageous) and buying books online wasn't possible.  I bought about half my books way ahead of time from someone in the previous class.  As the previous class was ending, I would post a notice that I wanted XYZ book.  That the Used Price was X.  The price they would get was Y, and I'd pay halfway in the middle.  

 

Or, if less than half of the book was used.  I would buy the book used a week or so before school started.  I'd email the professor and get the syllabus.  Then I'd photocopy the relevant sections and return the book for all my money back.  Looking back, that was illegal, but I didn't realize it then.  

[Annie G]

Back when textbooks cost half what they cost now (which I still thought was outrageous) and buying books online wasn't possible.  I bought about half my books way ahead of time from someone in the previous class.  As the previous class was ending, I would post a notice that I wanted XYZ book.  That the Used Price was X.  The price they would get was Y, and I'd pay halfway in the middle.  

 

Or, if less than half of the book was used.  I would buy the book used a week or so before school started.  I'd email the professor and get the syllabus.  Then I'd photocopy the relevant sections and return the book for all my money back.  Looking back, that was illegal, but I didn't realize it then.  

 

 

Our cc won't let you return a book (even the same day you buy it) unless you show them a copy of the class change that proves you dropped the class. This prevents people from getting the books at full price at the cc and then returning them as soon as the cheaper Amazon books arrive. (or if you are able to score a used book from a friend)

 

And to complicate matters, the school's book buyback week ends midweek of finals week. So...if your final is early in the week, ok, sell your book back after the final. But if it's on Thursday or Friday, sorry, but buyback week is over. 

 

And they don't allow students to post 'wanted' ads on the bulletin board- just for sale ads.   Some kid at that school needs to organize a book buying/selling Facebook page- lots of schools have them but ds can't find one for his school. 

 

I truly think this school is trying to gouge students.  Dd's school is SO much better about keeping book costs low. 

[LucyStoner]

I usually bought from other students and resold for about the same price to other students.

 

I am about to start school again soon and I can get all my books electronically to read on a tablet. I'd prefer to avoid the eyestrain of a backlit screen but I will figure out a work around for that to save the cost. A new, large screen table costs me about what the new price is for an advanced accounting or finance book.

 

It's a racket.

[bzymom]

A prof told my son regarding one very pricey "updated" edition he had to purchase that the prof requiring it was making $$ from the publisher.

 

Makes me furious, and I work very hard to find cheaper sources, including Craigslist.

 

 

[fdrinca]

As a former college instructor - and a spouse of a current instructor - I'll say that it's really driven by the textbook industry. Or, at least,it's not heavily driven by the instructors. There are limitations to the types of used and older editions professors can order. The university bookstore won't serve as a used market middleman, nor should it. 

 

DH has found this so frustrating for his students, especially as the textbook he assigns has many bells and whistles that the average introductory student doesn't want or need. (Software packages, online content, I'm looking specifically at you.) His approach has been to write his own textbook, distributed electronically via .pdf, but that's not appropriate for everyone.

 

I also have had some rare encounters with professors - usually older, FWIW - who don't consider text costs when assigning course materials. I suspect it's a generational affect, so that these older professors don't quite realize how expensive the texts are and come from a time when college hadn't been open to so many different individuals of varying economic backgrounds.

 

I really encourage any student with an expensive textbook to talk to the professor. How much of the text is needed? Would an older edition suffice? Often, they do. 

[fdrinca]

A prof told my son regarding one very pricey "updated" edition he had to purchase that the prof requiring it was making $$ from the publisher.

 

Makes me furious, and I work very hard to find cheaper sources, including Craigslist.

 

Oh my goodness, I've never heard of this. I wish DH were getting kickbacks from the publisher sometimes :)

 

Was the prof in question the author? 

[Laura Corin]

You asked for non-US input.  Calvin's university is divided into colleges - you go to lectures with students from other colleges, but smaller-group and individual tuition takes place within your college, where you also live.  The college has more than one library, and we are told that he doesn't need to buy many books, as many are available in the libraries, and as there are relatively few students then there isn't too much competition.

 

Another aspect: he's studying English and Classics.  So far, he hasn't had any textbooks assigned.  His first English reading list is all works of literature, with some works of criticism mentioned for reference (to read in the library).  No text book to follow.  For Latin, so far they have suggested a couple of books of Latin grammar - both classic texts and neither very expensive.

 

If it's like my own university experience (studying French and Drama) - the grammar books were the only text books per se.  The teaching is just that - conveyed through lectures and small group teaching.  A lot of the learning is personal work in the library, critically assessing original texts.

 

So: more library access; fewer text books.  I don't know how sciences work though.

 

L

[idnib]

I feel your pain. I saw a chart somewhere that showed the costs of textbooks vs general inflation and the curves for textbooks was much steeper.

 

That said, I do think people underestimate how much work goes into creating a textbook. I used to work for a textbook publisher on a very well-known biology book. Our team on this particular book consisted of:

 

--The author

 

--An acquisitions editor. She worked on 2-3 acquired books at a time, while trying to review others for possible acquisition.

 

--A Sr. Production Editor, full time. Reviewed content, fonts, layouts, proofs. Also responsible for working with buyer on negotiating printing/paper prices.

 

--Two junior Production Editors, full time.

 

--An Editorial Assistant, full time.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week looking for existing art we could use.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week creating new art.

 

--A contractor who worked variable hours 20-45 hours/week securing permissions for the use of artwork or charts.

 

--A legal team who did lots of legal stuff, including contracts and making sure we weren't doing anything that could be construed as copying. I think they also dealt with ISBNs.

 

--Each chapter was reviewed by 2 biology professors in its field. So for 40+ chapters, a person found two professors to review each, mailed them the chapters, followed up to get all the reviews back, went over suggested changes with the author, and send payments, for all 90+ people. Not sure what to call this person but it was a full-time job. Review coordinator? It became easier after universities developed a web presence, I think. Before that, it was cold calling.

 

--A marketing team which looked at the competition and met with profs and students to find out what they wanted as far as content or format changes. 

 

--Another 4-5 people to create the student workbooks, test bank questions and answers, CDs, etc. This includes the content, the layout, the proofs, and printing.

 

--A web person to create the web pages and get samples on the web, plus any online components to go with the text.

 

--A marketing person to do sales training

 

--Sales people who covered more than just this one book, sent free copies to potential adopters.

 

The margin on the book, after all the royalties were paid out, plus the salaries/contractor payments, plus the cost to actually print, ship, and store the books, was 11-12%.

 

ETA: This was a 3-4 year process.

[Dana]

Teaching math at the cc, we have standardized required texts through the department, so I have no choice about the text. Even if I were full time, I still wouldn't have much say since it's a departmental decision.

 

The looseleaf text saved about $100 over the hardback, so that's why the looseleaf was chosen for one course.

 

I find the software to be incredibly useful and I really encourage my students to use it. It is pricey, but it gives immediate feedback with homework problems and I can give quizzes that help prepare students for tests. 

 

The publishers do come out with new editions so they can keep making money. They do stop supporting prior editions, so if we want to require the online software (like for an internet course), we do need to stay with the current edition. We do try to use the same text for multiple semesters (so same text for beginning & intermediate algebra; same text for college algebra & trig)

 

I do sympathize, but for my class, it wouldn't work well for me to buck the department - and I'll agree that it's a publisher issue more than anything else.

[chocolatechip]

You asked for non-US input.  Calvin's university is divided into colleges - you go to lectures with students from other colleges, but smaller-group and individual tuition takes place within your college, where you also live.  The college has more than one library, and we are told that he doesn't need to buy many books, as many are available in the libraries, and as there are relatively few students then there isn't too much competition.

 

Another aspect: he's studying English and Classics.  So far, he hasn't had any textbooks assigned.  His first English reading list is all works of literature, with some works of criticism mentioned for reference (to read in the library).  No text book to follow.  For Latin, so far they have suggested a couple of books of Latin grammar - both classic texts and neither very expensive.

 

If it's like my own university experience (studying French and Drama) - the grammar books were the only text books per se.  The teaching is just that - conveyed through lectures and small group teaching.  A lot of the learning is personal work in the library, critically assessing original texts.

 

So: more library access; fewer text books.  I don't know how sciences work though.

 

L

Sciences and mathematics are the killer texts, at least in my experience. 

[Guest]

Idnib, that is an interesting consideration, but the textbook for my marketing class over the summer was FULL of grammatical, syntactical and other errors. I started making editorial remarks! I don't know how a two-hundred dollar textbook could be so poorly edited.

[JennyD]

 

I teach at a university and as a PP said, AFAIK the publishers are the ones who drive the price.  I completely agree that it is horrifying, though.  Last spring I assigned a textbook that I myself had used as a student in 2002, when it cost  $120.  (The sticker was still on my own copy.)  2014 cost: $325.   It was in a new edition (which was a good thing because the previous edition would have been essentially unusable due to changes in the field) had two new coauthors and a new publisher, and is genuinely a fantastic text, but still.   What's more, all of the texts I looked at were right around the same price, so it's not like I could have just chosen a not-as-good but much cheaper option.

 

I also teach a course in which I assign a variety of primary and secondary texts, and so I initially compiled a coursepack for the university bookstore to run off.  Then I found out that they were going to charge north of $220 for the entire set.  I could not believe it, not least of all because about 60% of the documents were already in the public domain, so I asked for the price breakdown.  Overwhelmingly, it was the publisher permissions costs that were driving up the price.  The cost of including just of a few the articles I wanted to assign was just staggering.  So in the end, I just scanned everything and posted it on Blackboard.  100% kosher re copyright?  Maybe.  Would I have preferred that the students all have hard copies?  For sure.  But I was just furious about the price and simply could not justify asking the students to pay that.

 

Finally, like a PP's DH, my DH is also writing a graduate textbook that will be open source. However, that's really something that you can only do, at least in his field, post-tenure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rebel Yell]

At Diamond's community college, the professors aren't allowed to tell the students they won't actually need the textbook.

 

One actaully said "I'm not allowed to tell you to not buy the textbook.  But if you show up for class and take good notes, you'll have everything you need."

 

Several have OKed previous editions.

 

Only one required the current edition, but at least it covered two semesters. And was $100 cheaper on Amazon.

[LucyStoner]

I feel your pain. I saw a chart somewhere that showed the costs of textbooks vs general inflation and the curves for textbooks was much steeper.

 

That said, I do think people underestimate how much work goes into creating a textbook. I used to work for a textbook publisher on a very well-known biology book. Our team on this particular book consisted of:

 

--The author

 

--An acquisitions editor. She worked on 2-3 acquired books at a time, while trying to review others for possible acquisition.

 

--A Sr. Production Editor, full time. Reviewed content, fonts, layouts, proofs. Also responsible for working with buyer on negotiating printing/paper prices.

 

--Two junior Production Editors, full time.

 

--An Editorial Assistant, full time.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week looking for existing art we could use.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week creating new art.

 

--A contractor who worked variable hours 20-45 hours/week securing permissions for the use of artwork or charts.

 

--A legal team who did lots of legal stuff, including contracts and making sure we weren't doing anything that could be construed as copying. I think they also dealt with ISBNs.

 

--Each chapter was reviewed by 2 biology professors in its field. So for 40+ chapters, a person found two professors to review each, mailed them the chapters, followed up to get all the reviews back, went over suggested changes with the author, and send payments, for all 90+ people. Not sure what to call this person but it was a full-time job. Review coordinator? It became easier after universities developed a web presence, I think. Before that, it was cold calling.

 

--A marketing team which looked at the competition and met with profs and students to find out what they wanted as far as content or format changes.

 

--Another 4-5 people to create the student workbooks, test bank questions and answers, CDs, etc. This includes the content, the layout, the proofs, and printing.

 

--A web person to create the web pages and get samples on the web, plus any online components to go with the text.

 

--A marketing person to do sales training

 

--Sales people who covered more than just this one book, sent free copies to potential adopters.

 

The margin on the book, after all the royalties were paid out, plus the salaries/contractor payments, plus the cost to actually print, ship, and store the books, was 11-12%.

 

ETA: This was a 3-4 year process.

I get that a lot of work goes into it but for frequent new editions in intro level coursework, I think it is make work to make profit. There's no reason that new editions need to come out so often.

[Guest]

At Diamond's community college, the professors aren't allowed to tell the students they won't actually need the textbook.

 

One actaully said "I'm not allowed to tell you to not buy the textbook. But if you show up for class and take good notes, you'll have everything you need."

 

Several have OKed previous editions.

 

Only one required the current edition, but at least it covered two semesters. And was $100 cheaper on Amazon.

Yup, some of my profs have done this, too. My French teacher was the best. She went to great lengths (some of the "Blackbeard" variety) to allow us to use an older edition, not buy the add-ons, and not upgrade if we were continuing in her class.

[LucyStoner]

I never messed up my grades using an older edition comparing it to the new edition on reserve in the library or to a friend's copy. If I couldn't buy from a student, that is what I did. I like to eat. $300 textbooks were definitely not compatible with that for a first generation college student who was supporting her brother financially. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

[Guest]

I never messed up my grades using an older edition comparing it to the new edition on reserve in the library or to a friend's copy. If I couldn't buy from a student, that is what I did. I like to eat. $300 textbooks were definitely not compatible with that for a first generation college student who was supporting her brother financially. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

Yup. That's very logical.

[Kim in Appalachia]

My observation: State schools are worse.  They have the "special" editions, the extra ebook pass, and always have the newest edition.  The private schools either use older books, or forgo them altogether.  Of course, science classes have the most expensive books no matter where you go to school. 

[Susan in TN]

DRAMATIC differences. DS had an advertising text for this semester - $170 new, $2.50 previous edition. Teacher ok'd previous edition. Teachers can help undermine the price racket if they so choose.

  

I'm with you on this one. Ugh. 

 

I had a chemistry text for this semester. Old? $0.75. New? Right around $200.00. 

 

Thankfully the prof let us use the old one.

 

Unbelievable! Ds is starting college next week and fortunately, his texts so far are not that outrageous! For one class he had to buy 4 texts/software/workbooks, but fortunately they will all be used for 2 to 4 semesters. His literature class text was only $30 on amazon, and I found the two specific works of lit used for under $4 each.

[idnib]

I get that a lot of work goes into it but for frequent new editions in intro level coursework, I think it is make work to make profit. There's no reason that new editions need to come out so often.

 

I'm not defending the current prices. I'm just explaining how much work and money goes into them and that the profit margins, at least then, were not outrageous.  If these prices had stayed in line with inflation or there were extenuating circumstances like huge price increases for paper, I could defend them. But I cannot.

 

I think one of the things that happens is that publishers look at a bigger adoption picture. Profs pretty much only want to see a textbook sales rep if there's a new edition. Profs don't really like reps but reps can get a foot in the door if there's something new. Because there are multiple publishers they try to release the books in such a way that the release dates dent the competition. It's a bit like prime time schedules; each network trying to come up with the best thing while trying to head off viewership of other networks and avoid being clobbered at the same time.

 

Nobody wants to go head-to-head with a juggernaut. Nobody wants their movie to come out the same weekend as Star Wars Episode VII, directed by JJ Abrams.  :D

 

When a publisher doesn't have a new edition, their reps are not meeting with the profs, the competitors' are. That prof may decide to switch and never come back. Publishers feel pressure to provide sales reps with something in their hands so they can get in the door. Some publishers hurry and publish a new edition because they want to switch profs before the new edition of the juggernaut comes out next year. Some publishers wait for the year after the juggernaut so they don't go head to head. Multiply by all the publishers, the limited time slots for adoption decisions, and the limited number of profs. Hijinks ensue.

 

A publisher (and author!) may have preferred to make more changes but hear another publisher's schedule has moved up so they cut modifications to come out first. Adopters really want a physical book in their hands.

 

So yes, it is about money, as most things are, but it's not as simple as saying we'll change a chapter and increase the price 10%. It's more more complicated than that. 

 

Again, I'm not defending, just providing landscape since I have a background in this industry.

 

What we really need is an open source, openly editable textbook setup. Like Wikipedia, but in textbook form (electronic chapters, discussion questions, etc) and free.

[mommymonster]

I taught CC for a few years. In some of my classes, I could basically give the students a list of materials that they could download from the Internet and the total book costs for the class was the cost for printing, if they decided to print things out. In other classes, like tax laws, the laws changed so profoundly that the book from the year before was not particularly useful. The basics were the same, but there were serious differences. I also was told by the administration that I had to teach with a particular book, so I couldn't shop for something less expensive. Frustrating, but it happens. 

 

One thing that is helpful, believe it or not, is to comment in the class reviews on the book pricing. I took my reviews really seriously and would try to modify my practices based on student feedback. I guess not all teachers will, but if you were to talk to others in your class and have a number of people comment, it will raise teacher awareness. 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

Sciences and mathematics are the killer texts, at least in my experience. 

 

Because we have no general classes, those studying arts can avoid these completely.

 

L

[bzymom]

Oh my goodness, I've never heard of this. I wish DH were getting kickbacks from the publisher sometimes :)

 

Was the prof in question the author? 

I truly do not remember.  I would imagine he must have been in some capacity.

[Starr]

Ds has a couple of texts that are required but without the *extras*. Still a good used was $50 versus $150.00

[regentrude]

I feel your pain. I saw a chart somewhere that showed the costs of textbooks vs general inflation and the curves for textbooks was much steeper.

 

That said, I do think people underestimate how much work goes into creating a textbook. I used to work for a textbook publisher on a very well-known biology book. Our team on this particular book consisted of:

 

--The author

 

--An acquisitions editor. She worked on 2-3 acquired books at a time, while trying to review others for possible acquisition.

 

--A Sr. Production Editor, full time. Reviewed content, fonts, layouts, proofs. Also responsible for working with buyer on negotiating printing/paper prices.

 

--Two junior Production Editors, full time.

 

--An Editorial Assistant, full time.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week looking for existing art we could use.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week creating new art.

 

--A contractor who worked variable hours 20-45 hours/week securing permissions for the use of artwork or charts.

 

--A legal team who did lots of legal stuff, including contracts and making sure we weren't doing anything that could be construed as copying. I think they also dealt with ISBNs.

 

--Each chapter was reviewed by 2 biology professors in its field. So for 40+ chapters, a person found two professors to review each, mailed them the chapters, followed up to get all the reviews back, went over suggested changes with the author, and send payments, for all 90+ people. Not sure what to call this person but it was a full-time job. Review coordinator? It became easier after universities developed a web presence, I think. Before that, it was cold calling.

 

--A marketing team which looked at the competition and met with profs and students to find out what they wanted as far as content or format changes. 

 

--Another 4-5 people to create the student workbooks, test bank questions and answers, CDs, etc. This includes the content, the layout, the proofs, and printing.

 

--A web person to create the web pages and get samples on the web, plus any online components to go with the text.

 

--A marketing person to do sales training

 

--Sales people who covered more than just this one book, sent free copies to potential adopters.

 

The margin on the book, after all the royalties were paid out, plus the salaries/contractor payments, plus the cost to actually print, ship, and store the books, was 11-12%.

 

ETA: This was a 3-4 year process.

 

Be that as it may, but if creating a new textbook were not extremely lucrative for the publisher, they would not feel compelled to come out with new editions of math and science textbooks every few years where there is absolutely no change in content that would require a book to be updated. Most updates simply shuffle the homework numbers and incorporate links to software. That's all.

You can teach intro physisc very well from a 50 year old book. They are thinner, have fewer charts and graphs and distracting unnecessary photographs. There is absolutely no need for new introductory physics texts.

 

Now, not only do publishers come out with new editions of trusted books that simply scramble the homework problems, but there are still authors who feel the need to contribute to this industry by publishing yet another, virtually indistinguishable text that presents exactly the same material with very slight variations... I am not sure why they think they have something new to contribute...

It must be a huge business, seeing how publishers bombard instructors with unrequested free copies and inundate them with calls from sales reps.

 

[regentrude]

Profs pretty much only want to see a textbook sales rep if there's a new edition. Profs don't really like reps but reps can get a foot in the door if there's something new. Because there are multiple publishers they try to release the books in such a way that the release dates dent the competition. It's a bit like prime time schedules; each network trying to come up with the best thing while trying to head off viewership of other networks and avoid being clobbered at the same time....

 

When a publisher doesn't have a new edition, their reps are not meeting with the profs, the competitors' are. That prof may decide to switch and never come back.

 

Well, in my experience, profs don't want to see textbook reps, period.

I have never found a meeting with a textbook rep to be in any way productive. I am much better able to discern the quality of a text than the rep who is a.) biased and wants to sell his product and b.) possesses no subject expertise and thus can't tell why his book should be preferable to a competitor's.

[Tutor]

If possible, contact your professors directly before purchasing your texts. My dh taught undergrad classes when he was a PhD student. The university required that he list the books he was requiring for the class and submit it to the campus book store so they could order copies. He had very little say over what editions were ordered. He could list a publisher, but the book store automatically purchased the most recent edition. Fortunately, he was a literature professor, so he could get around the textbook requirement (usually... sometimes he used anthologies) and just list individual titles. Regardless, it seemed that the book store ordered the most expensive edition of each title available.

 

HOWEVER, he let students know as soon as possible that he did not care what edition of a book they used and to ignore whatever the university's official list was. He told them what version he was using so if they wanted the same one (so the page numbers would match) they could order it. Otherwise, they could order whatever copy they wanted as long as they could find their place in the book for in-class discussions. After asking around, he discovered that professors in other departments had the same policy. So check with your professor directly before buying your texts. You may be able to get an earlier edition and save some money.

[peachskittles]

I agree with you.  My SO is taking college classes this semester.  The costs of the books are horrifying.  Unfortunately, we don't have extra money to buy used editions from outside sources, so we are at their mercy.  I was extremely disappointed to find that one of his classes is only an E-book with a code.  It cost us $180.  *faint*  We won't have anything to show for that class after this semester.  And last semester, he had two books that were loose leaf.  Ridiculous.  I have them tucked safely away, but they are not very useful after a semester.  Who really wants a college text in a plastic binder?

[regentrude]

I am acutely aware of textbook prices and try to look for ways to make it easier for my students - but I have to require a text.

 

I am not allowed to set an older edition of the text as the standard version, because the bookstore will be unable to find a sufficient amount of used copies on the market (I tried). We need to guarantee that the book is available. This may not be an issue for small classes, but with several hundred students, it is.

So, the best i can try is to use the same text for as many semesters as possible, and to tell the students they should try to sell their used books directly to the students who will be taking the course after them - not go through the bookstore which gives them peanuts.

 

Our department has experimented with custom editions, in an attempt to save textbook cost. This was unsuccessful. The custom edition (basically a reprint of the relevant chapters of the textbook book) was only a little less expensive and has virtually no resale value. Also, the quality was poor, not just the paper, but it did not have chapter numbers. So, I'm back to adopting an actual book.

 

Now, if students want to use older texts, they should consult their instructors and ask whether that would be OK. Sometimes I have students ask, and I happily tell them that the old text is fine for reading, but that the assigned homework problems refer to the current edition. Now, if they want to borrow a book from a friend and correlate the problem numbers, they will save a large amount of money... however, this seems to happen very rarely. Most won't bother.

[Pippen]

I think that colleges are increasingly using arrangements with publishing companies because they benefit financially. My son is taking first year chem at a community college and yesterday he came home ranting because of the $230 custom chemistry "textbook" he had to buy. It was a textbook in the format of two workbooks, published by Pearson for the college. And because it was a first edition, there were no used or rental options.

 

Here's an article on custom textbooks from 2008. I think it's just finally catching up everywhere.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB121565135185141235

 

I also think technology is playing a role in a big way. I took an online grad course a few summers ago and paid $70 more for a student access card to access a few brief videos each week. It was an incredible waste.

 

The only bright spot in textbooks this week for us is that Amazon bought his physics text back for $25 more than I paid for it. (I was watching prices and it happened to dip down when I got it.) Unfortunately that didn't cover the entire additional $70 paid for online access, but it felt good not to take as big a loss as usual.

[TechWife]

Of course, science classes have the most expensive books no matter where you go to school. 

 

I thought art books were expensive - $212 for one this semester. I'd hate to see science book prices.

[regentrude]

I also think technology is playing a role in a big way. I took an online grad course a few summers ago and paid $70 more for a student access card to access a few brief videos each week. It was an incredible waste.

 

Since you mention access cards:

It is ridiculous if a separate purchase is required and the resource is not used adequately. That is wasteful and inconsiderate.

 

I am not using any of the online resources for my course, but the publisher is bundling the access in with the new textbooks sold at the bookstore at no additional cost. So, any student who purchases the new book through the bookstore gets the access for free. (I guess it does not cost the publisher anything to do that.)

Students who purchase a used text are not required to buy the access card; I have that clearly stated on the bookstore textbook list and on my course website.

I highly encourage you to tell your students to ask the instructor whether an online resource will be needed. Some may deliberately require it because they make use of it; others may simply not have given it any thought. As we say in Germany: "Asking is free."

[kiana]

Exactly the same thing as what regentrude said.

 

For some of my more advanced theoretical classes, I have used a Dover book instead, with hand-made updates on slightly altered information. But there aren't any (that I'm aware of -- please enlighten me if so) that are suitable for freshman classes with average students enrolled. Furthermore, in some courses, the field has shifted enough that what was formerly a graduate course is now considered suitable for advanced undergraduates, but the textbooks used for graduate students are quite unsuitable for undergraduates. In this case, a newer book must be used.

 

We do make sure that the entire calculus sequence uses the same book, so if a student does not fail any classes, they are guaranteed to be able to use the same book through the calculus sequence. (If they fail a course, the book may change).

[LucyStoner]

I thought art books were expensive - $212 for one this semester. I'd hate to see science book prices.

My art history books were super expensive even used but they've had a second life as my kids favorite look through until you see something you want to read about type books. I can't be the only homeschooling mom who's still getting use out of her 15-20 year old copy of Art Through the Ages!

[ChristyB in TN]

Last semester, my two oldest who attended a state university had classes with no book at all, simply online access we purchased for the online edition of the book and all the bells and whistles. I find it atrocious. The prices were atrocious and the concept made us crazy. This way, no one can resell anything and everyone pays a premium for something that vanishes into thin air after finals. We are attempting to pay for college with no student loans and they ARE NOT HELPING.

[idnib]

Be that as it may, but if creating a new textbook were not extremely lucrative for the publisher, they would not feel compelled to come out with new editions of math and science textbooks every few years where there is absolutely no change in content that would require a book to be updated. Most updates simply shuffle the homework numbers and incorporate links to software. That's all.

You can teach intro physisc very well from a 50 year old book. They are thinner, have fewer charts and graphs and distracting unnecessary photographs. There is absolutely no need for new introductory physics texts.

 

I can't speak for the current market. When I worked in textbooks, we made real changes between editions, but definitely some of the decision to come out with a new edition was driven by non-content factors such as competitors' plans, locking in a good paper price, authors' demands and schedules, etc. It's a business first and foremost, and while all the scrambling has a lot of downsides for the consumer, so would having publishers go out of business, resulting in less competition.

 

I don't consider 11-12% to be extremely lucrative considering the risk of locking in contracts for authors, paper, time on printing presses, shipping, etc 3-4 years in advance. Other industries I've been in, such as software, are much more profitable.

 

There's almost no need for new texts ever, unless there's a brand new field or at least a decade has gone by in a rapidly changing industry such as biotech, and 5 years for some computing topics. Most of the releases are done due to the reasons outlined in the first paragraph here and my second, longer post above.

[hillfarm]

Dd is participating in a PSEO program where she can attend the local community college for her jr and sr years of high school. Everything is totally free. She is taking 5 courses, one of them online. The tab for her books from the bookstore was $688.00! They have some pretty draconian rules regarding wear and tear and return dates, but hopefully we will be able to get through the semester without any damage. We did not have to pay a dime for the use of the books due to the PSEO rules.

 

Perhaps that would be the next related, lucrative business - insurance on rented/loaned textbooks!

 

Also IME, although I was diligent about getting good books and adding those from classes in my major to my permanent collection, I have rarely (read probably never) actually used one after I graduated. Every place I worked wanted things done their way, not the way described in my texts, or the procedures changed over time, or the laws changed and so did materials, etc. So I wouldn't be too distraught if you are unable to keep a pristine copy of a text long term. You might not need it.

[kewb]

I think it is ridiculous how much college text books cost.  I just spent $181 on a spanish loose leaf textbook for my ds.  I could have picked it up used for $60 but he needed the online access code which you can only get with a new book.  It doesn't even come with a binder.  It is a pack of paper.

[OhanaBee]

Two kids in college now.  I just braved the bookstore today for the youngest.

 

It's insane.

[regentrude]

I can't speak for the current market. When I worked in textbooks, we made real changes between editions, but definitely some of the decision to come out with a new edition was driven by non-content factors such as competitors' plans, locking in a good paper price, authors' demands and schedules, etc. It's a business first and foremost, and while all the scrambling has a lot of downsides for the consumer, so would having publishers go out of business, resulting in less competition.

...

 

There's almost no need for new texts ever, unless there's a brand new field or at least a decade has gone by in a rapidly changing industry such as biotech, and 5 years for some computing topics. Most of the releases are done due to the reasons outlined in the first paragraph here and my second, longer post above.

 

 

What do paper prices and author's schedules have to do with bringing out a brand new edition?

The changes made to the books I use for my classes between editions are so minuscule that the author's total involvement can not have taken more than one hour.

 

I find the two statements "it's a business" and "there is almost no need for new texts ever" to highlight the situation quite nicely. In any other business, the need and demand for a product drives the production. Textbooks is one area where the final consumer, the student, has no free choice whether to purchase the product or not, because that decision is made for him by somebody (the prof) without a vested interest in keeping it affordable. So sure, from a business point of view, producing more new high priced books and pressuring people to adopt them and to increase demand is a sound strategy - but it works precisely because the normal market mechanisms are not functioning here.

Consumers are usually not forced by third parties to purchase certain products. They won't choose to update an item unless the upgrade offers significantly better functionality.

[Guest]

I find the two statements "it's a business" and "there is almost no need for new texts ever" to highlight the situation quite nicely. In any other business, the need and demand for a product drives the production. Textbooks is one area where the final consumer, the student, has no free choice whether to purchase the product or not, because that decision is made for him by somebody (the prof) without a vested interest in keeping it affordable. So sure, from a business point of view, producing more new high priced books and pressuring people to adopt them and to increase demand is a sound strategy - but it works precisely because the normal market mechanisms are not functioning here.

Consumers are usually not forced by third parties to purchase certain products. They won't choose to update an item unless the upgrade offers significantly better functionality.

 

Yes! This, exactly! THIS is why it bothers me so much. There is not motive to make texts truly affordable and the SHEEPle are a captive audience (myself included) who have to obtain the materials somehow.

 

I intended to learn what books I would need at the bookstore today, but one of the two classes hasn't released theirs yet. I am going to see if I can contact the prof directly; maybe I will be able to get the book(s) used. For the other class, I don't have the section name, so I wasn't sure, but I did spot one book that fit and is probably it. I can get it used on amazon.

Another aspect: he's studying English and Classics.  So far, he hasn't had any textbooks assigned.  His first English reading list is all works of literature, with some works of criticism mentioned for reference (to read in the library).  No text book to follow.  For Latin, so far they have suggested a couple of books of Latin grammar - both classic texts and neither very expensive.

 

Forgive me if I seem like I'm stalking you, but I'm really quite interested in the differences between the UK and the US university systems.

 

In some other thread, you posted the reading list for his renaissance lit class.  Is it generally expected that he will just read those books from the library?  Most lit classes in the US system would encourage students to buy (or rent) their own copies of all the assigned texts, leading to a large book bill. How many copies does the library have, and how many students have that same reading list?  Does he get to check out the books from the library, or are they on reserve, and how much contention is there for books?  Or do the students just work out among themselves who's going to read what when?  

[chiguirre]

IME, the Spanish language versions of textbooks cost pennies on the dollar versus the US editions. I'm sure that's because the market won't bear any more than that. When English language texts are used, they're almost always pirated (at least in Argentina and Venezuela where I have direct experience) because enforcement is laughable. If the books weren't photocopied (or bit torrented now) they wouldn't be used at all.

 

I bought an Asian paperback edition of an accounting text I needed for a class about 8 years ago on Amazon. It was paper back but specifically stated that it was exactly the same as the US hardback edition that cost twice as much. It worked like a charm.

[regentrude]

2) is it the same way at non-US colleges?

 

No. the setup that one particular book is mandated for a particular class is quite typical for the US.

When i went to college, at the beginning of the semester the professor gave a list of different books he found suitable for the topic. None were required; there was no reading schedule, no assigned sections for each day. It was up to the student to go to the library and figure out how much extra studying from which book for which topic was beneficial.

 

I find that the assigning of a set textbook for the entire class and the specific assigning of daily reading assignments is typical for the way college students are treated in this country: everything is spoon fed, every assignment is graded, we hold their hands like we do in high school, dangle carrots in form of points in front of their noses and coax them along.

I may sound like an old fuddy-duddy but really, when I went to college it was the student's responsibility to figure out how much to study. We were treated like adults. There were no daily checks whether you did your reading or homework - if you did not, you'd fail the final. End of story. And using multiple books to supplement a course was far superior, because different books offer different approaches, highlight different facets, and have strengths in different areas.

 

The entire way textbooks are used in colleges comes about because college is the new high school and students are treated like children. The newer the books, the more they cater to this.