Can I vent for a minute without offending anybody? RE lack of secular or catholic homeschool support options...

[AimeeM]

I'm jealous right now, and it's not a good place to be. *sigh*

 

Our intimate, small-ish Catholic co-ops are lovely, but every time I turn around there is some awesome opportunity for group art lessons, taught by a professional, homeschool music classes, huge co-ops with professional teachers... all run by protestant groups, that either require "worldview" class in addition to the arts/humanities classes (which we can't take; they are sola fide/sola scriptura) and/or require you sign a statement of faith.

 

There was one really huge, nice co-op that is protestant, that DID very graciously agree to allow us to join without agreeing that we shared the doctrinal statement/SOF, but we couldn't/wouldn't participate in most of the classes because of content or materials used (BJU, young earth science, etc). It was also an incredible time commitment - cost quite a lot of money AND they required a ton of volunteer hours (with no option to pay to opt out of volunteer hours your first year)

 

Then there's a beautiful classical university model school not 10 minutes away! They allow homeschoolers to enroll in as many (or as few) classes as they want! But... there's a SOF and you *have to* sign it agreeing that you share their worldview.

 

So, yes, this is my own issue, and it's just petty jealous, but I'm frustrated and needed to vent. I was looking for neat-o opportunities for DD for this upcoming year, as she's highly social, but most sports in her age group are rather focused and have no real socialization aspect.

[Kathryn]

Vent away. That does sound very frustrating. The Protestant groups around here are still the majority, but we are lucky that more and more secular opportunities are popping up.

[Dana]

Yup.

[maize]

I've faced similar frustrations. I would be happy in general to sign some kind of agreement saying I understand the theological beliefs of the people organizing a group and will not say or do anything counter to those within the group, seems it would be a reasonable compromise.

[TCB]

Sounds frustrating. Is there any way your Catholic co-ops could arrange similar classes? 

[AimeeM]

I've faced similar frustrations. I would be happy in general to sign some kind of agreement saying I understand the theological beliefs of the people organizing a group and will not say or do anything counter to those within the group, seems it would be a reasonable compromise.

 

Well, the one co-op did only ask that much - and it was very gracious of them (as it wasn't their standard policy), but most of their classes were pretty centric around their worldview; well, the classes we would have been interested in (science, history, literature, geography, etc), so there really wasn't anything there for us.

[Tangerine]

I always kind of wonder what sort of dirty mojo my kids must have to not be able to participate in fingerpainting.  Is it Christ-centered macaroni art these people are making?

[Spryte]

Yep.  We're in a huge homeschooling area.  But we are very isolated due to lack of secular opportunities.  It is frustrating.

[AimeeM]

Sounds frustrating. Is there any way your Catholic co-ops could arrange similar classes? 

 

I don't think it's something they are interested in. Both co-ops are only set up to be supplemental in nature (every other friday). I don't think they have the funds or participation to hire out professional teachers or space like the larger protestant co-ops do (nor do I think the larger Catholic families, often with 5+ children, could afford the fees that would have to be charged for such things; we only have three kids, only two of whom are school age).

 

ETA: the catholic churches that so graciously allow our groups to meet at, only have very limited space for us, as all have parish K-8 schools on site. The protestant groups often rent (for minimal amounts) space from protestant churches, which generally aren't using the space during day, during the week.

[AimeeM]

I always kind of wonder what sort of dirty mojo my kids must have to not be able to participate in fingerpainting.  Is it Christ-centered macaroni art these people are making?

 

Yeah. I'm still feeling the green eyed monster about the homeschool arts academy I was drooling over. Why is a worldview class mandatory to participate in art and piano? *le sigh*

[eternalsummer]

Here it is either exclusively Christian (with a required declaration of faith) or exclusively secular (with a required declaration of agreement with a bunch of things I don't agree with). 

 

I don't understand, honestly, why it all has to be so segregated.  Is everyone (Christian and liberal/secular) so insecure in their beliefs that their kids must only associate with other kids of the same belief system? 

[AimeeM]

It appears that worldview class isn't required for piano lessons... but we already have a piano teacher, so... yeah.

[*Lulu*]

I can totally sympathize.

 

Every structured group that offers any sort of class is either requiring a SOF or has those views as the unwritten rule.

 

We are Protestant Christians....just not the right flavor of PC.

[AimeeM]

It looks like they offer "semi-private" art classes (for quite the hefty price, but whatevs, lol) with no worldview class!

 

What does "semi-private" mean? Group lessons?

[AimeeM]

I can totally sympathize.

 

Every structured group that offers any sort of class is either requiring a SOF or has those views as the unwritten rule.

 

We are Protestant Christians....just not the right flavor of PC.

 

Yeah - I've had several protestant friends shocked at the SOF of the local classical university model school. Most of them couldn't/wouldn't sign it. It's ODD.

[catz]

We have awesome secular/welcoming homeschool options here.  I really feel for you, because I'm not sure if we'd homeschool for the long term without them!

[I talk to the trees]

You are not alone. All of the co-ops in my area require SOF's.

[SwallowTail]

Thankfully, in our area, there is a huge secular/inclusive group that is pretty active. It is a shame all areas do not have such a thing.

[AimeeM]

We do have one secular group here, but again - it doesn't compare at all to these huge, professional co-ops :(

[SunnyDays]

Yep, I feel your pain.  We're also not quite the right flavor of Christian for most of the groups and co-ops around here.  The limited secular groups don't really offer co-ops or anything, and to be honest, we don't really fit with them either.  Homeschooling just isn't huge here, and people only organize into their own small groups.

 

Unfortunately, it's a big reason we've been considering private school for next year.  It's really hard when you can't find a peer group or community when you and your child both want one.

 

[Above The Rowan]

I can commiserate somewhat. We don't have ANY co-ops here. A nice sized homeschool community given the small size of city we are, but no structured co ops, except for one - some superexclusive Christian group that most of us have never met because they strictly stick to their own circle. It's weird.

 

I'm not Christian of any sort so that one that we do have is a no go for us.

[AimeeM]

Yep, I feel your pain.  We're also not quite the right flavor of Christian for most of the groups and co-ops around here.  The limited secular groups don't really offer co-ops or anything, and to be honest, we don't really fit with them either.

 

Unfortunately, it's a big reason we've been considering private school for next year.  It's really hard when you can't find a peer group or community when you and your child both want one.

 

Without a decent group, I'm afraid DD will really push for private high school. I do not know that she can succeed in a neurotypical high school without support for her dyslexia, at the moment public isn't an option, but I do NOT want an unhappy, isolated high school girl at home with me. Bleh.

 

I hesitate with the secular groups for similar reasons (as you do). We do not fit in (as we ARE christian), and what they offer is very limited. I'm not even sure that the one even exists any more - I had sent an e-mail to their yahoo group and it was kicked back/denied because it wasn't answered/opened within a certain amount of time.

[catz]

Here it is either exclusively Christian (with a required declaration of faith) or exclusively secular (with a required declaration of agreement with a bunch of things I don't agree with). 

 

I don't understand, honestly, why it all has to be so segregated.  Is everyone (Christian and liberal/secular) so insecure in their beliefs that their kids must only associate with other kids of the same belief system? 

 

I find it interesting the secular groups in your area are requiring it?  I wonder if just a few militant atheists are running  the show or what?  The secular communities here have none of that.  I've participated in 2 different secular co-ops and know there several others locally that did not have anything to sign at all.  There are certainly Christians and Jewish families participating locally. 

 

[LucyStoner]

I dislike the requirement to sign a statement of faith so much that I probably wouldn't even sign one that I personally wrote. What a bunch of nonsense.

[MercyA]

I would be happy in general to sign some kind of agreement saying I understand the theological beliefs of the people organizing a group and will not say or do anything counter to those within the group, seems it would be a reasonable compromise.

 

This is what our co-op does, and I really appreciate it.  Only the leadership team has to affirm that they agree with the statement of faith.

 

[SunnyDays]

I dislike the requirement to sign a statement of faith so much that I probably wouldn't even sign one that I personally wrote. What a bunch of nonsense.

 

See, this is kind of me too.  I don't think I should have to sign something just to hang out with other homeschoolers.  With the groups we tried to join before, I *could* sign the statement of faith and did, but that wasn't good enough once they found out we weren't regularly attending church.  :glare:

 

We're now members of a great church... which, ironically, didn't require us to sign a statement of faith to join....  :lol:

 

We do have to sign a SOF for private (Christian) school... we could honestly sign it, and I know there are people from our church in the school as well, so I think it's pretty welcoming to all varieties of Christians.  I know any school comes with its own set of issues, but I think it's a better solution than any of our other options at this point.

 

Aimee, that's exactly what I don't want either... an unhappy, isolated kid with few social or activity outlets.  Because here, all sports and most activities in high school are done through the schools, public or private.  (We have a dual enrollment option, but they don't always make it easy.)

[momto10blessings]

We are catholic and have a similar issue here, but the groups allow me to sign it saying I respect (not agree with) their statement of faith.

[Pronghorn]

I went to a group for many years that only required teachers to sign the statement of faith. Seemed like a great group until they got paranoid and decided to require signing from everyone. We are Christian and could sign to many great historic creeds of the church, but that statement was not something we could sign. I begged and pleaded, but the group was afraid of exposing kids to people like us.

[umsami]

Yes, being Muslim, we can relate.  

[AimeeM]

I went to a group for many years that only required teachers to sign the statement of faith. Seemed like a great group until they got paranoid and decided to require signing from everyone. We are Christian and could sign to many great historic creeds of the church, but that statement was not something we could sign. I begged and pleaded, but the group was afraid of exposing kids to people like us.

 

I have to admit that at least one of the co-ops had a similar rule, but the course offerings were such that they were pretty centered on their worldview, and I hesitate to have my children in a group with a SOF meant to exclude not only those who aren't christian, but also meant to exclude one specific christian denomination (catholic/orthodox). This could, however, be area specific - around here, to many of the protestants, we (catholics) aren't christian, and are idol worshipping wannabes :P I'm not sure that I could sign a SOF agreeing to respect their views, and then tell my children to keep their traps shut if anything negative about any other faith is brought up (okay - my 12 year old WOULD NOT keep her mouth shut, lol, and I wouldn't feel okay requiring it).

 

[AimeeM]

Yes, being Muslim, we can relate.  

 

Golly, I bet you can. I know we have protestant groups (large ones) and a couple smaller catholic groups, but the secular group I'm not even sure is still around.

 

Have you asked a local Catholic group if you have one? Sometimes they make exceptions for those who cannot join other groups. I know ours has an orthodox family or two, and were perfectly fine with the idea of me bringing my Jewish tutoring student along.

[73349]

Sorry. :( I'd probably find the same thing in my area. I haven't looked closely, as we are not in the market for a co-op at this point.

 

Is there a community center or somewhere with space where you might be able to start something?

[Tammyla]

Vent away.  My experience has been that the older they get  (12 & up) the options are less and less due to so many variables.

[AimeeM]

Sorry. :( I'd probably find the same thing in my area. I haven't looked closely, as we are not in the market for a co-op at this point.

 

Is there a community center or somewhere with space where you might be able to start something?

 

There may be a community center or something of that sort, but I really have no desire to start one of my own. Between DS5's medical needs and appointments, DD12's 2E academic needs, and a toddler terror... yeah. Lol.

[Slartibartfast]

Vent away.

 

I am sorry. I hate it when groups require one to adhere to a certain idea in order to socialize. It is ridiculous.

 

I would love to join a group with any of you ladies if you were near me.  :grouphug:

[Greta]

I dislike the requirement to sign a statement of faith so much that I probably wouldn't even sign one that I personally wrote. What a bunch of nonsense.

A friend in my parish (we're Orthodox) wanted to sign her daughter up for some classes that required a statement of faith. She marked through the statement with a giant X, wrote out the Nicene Creed, and signed her name to that instead. And you know what? They accepted it! It never would have occurred to me to do that! I thought it was pretty clever. It's the only statement of faith I could picture myself signing. And apparently, even though they'd written out a number of particular doctrinal points, all that really mattered to them was that she was Christian.

[DawnM]

 I am sorry.  

 

Here we have classes you can pay for (not a coop) that don't require any SOF on the part of the parents.  If you want an art class, take an art class and only an art class.

 

We have Christian coops too that do have a SOF, and we have secular groups.

 

 

[Ellie]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Back in the day before I came back to the Church, when I was, apparently, the "right flavor" of Christian :001_rolleyes: , I still abhorred statements of faith.

 

There was no such thing in San Diego when I started hsing there in 1982, not even after the county-wide group became well organized and ginormous. The board purposely did not require such a thing; they just labeled the group clearly (Christian Family Schools) and let people decide whether that was the group for them (they did ask leaders to be in agreement with their basic Protestant SOF, but never, ever, put any restrictions on members).

 

When I moved to San Jose in 1987, there was a full-on SOF thing going on. I was horrified. Stunned. My own group members decided they did NOT want that (although eventually, when I was no longer a leader, there was a bad Catholic/Protestant break-up. Long story.). At one point there was a *sports group* that required its leaders to sign a SOF (it became part of the Catholic/Protestant break-up). What???

 

Anyway, I don't believe in SOF. I think it's fine for a group to openly declare the basic beliefs of the group (because, you know, it really is ok for people who have a generally similar word view to want to hang out with others who believe likewise, or for those who don't believe that to find other friends), so no one is surprised (a woman who had been coming to my group for a year or so was shocked to find out that we did not require members to sign a SOF, even though she herself had never signed one. o_0 ).

 

At any rate, today, if I were homeschooling, even if I could sign a SOF I wouldn't, just on principle. The regional group here required its convention exhibitors to sign a SOF to be included in the program; I refused to sign the thing, so even though I paid hundreds of dollars to be an exhibitor, and they were happy to take my money, they wouldn't also let me be listed in the program. Whatever.

[Onceuponatime]

A friend in my parish (we're Orthodox) wanted to sign her daughter up for some classes that required a statement of faith. She marked through the statement with a giant X, wrote out the Nicene Creed, and signed her name to that instead. And you know what? They accepted it! It never would have occurred to me to do that! I thought it was pretty clever. It's the only statement of faith I could picture myself signing. And apparently, even though they'd written out a number of particular doctrinal points, all that really mattered to them was that she was Christian.

 

I did something like that years ago. The people in charge accepted it, but still didn't understand why I did it. I wouldn't sign anything today. This thread got me interested in finding a group in my area. I think I may have found one not too far away. I may contact them before the next school year. We could use a little socialization. ;)

[freesia]

When I wanted a co-op for my kids, I started one. I didn't want to--boy! I didn't want to; it was a lot of work, but so worth it. Maybe you could start one and perhaps folks from different backgrounds would come to yours. You might be surprised. Now, we purposefully don't hire outside teachers and everyone has to teach. However, we a purposefully open on creation/age of earth/political issues. If it's your own co-op, you can structure it to look whatever you want it to look like.

 

I know you have a lot going on with med issues, a busy toddler, etc. But maybe there's someone else (I have 4 someones) who can share the load.

[Greta]

I wouldn't sign anything today.

I personally have always taken the statement of faith requirement, in and of itself, as a sign that I wouldn't fit in.

[Χά�ων]

Yep.  We're in a huge homeschooling area.  But we are very isolated due to lack of secular opportunities.  It is frustrating.

Same here. I gave up. 

[Elisabet1]

I guess I will admit to something that others will probably ream me for..but here goes....

 

 

The statement of faiths are more or less to keep people from teaching something opposite to what they want to teach their children during group times and such. I treat others and their religions with respect. So, I glance over what they expect, then I sign. I take the statement of faith to not so much be what I believe inside but rather what I am willing to speak about openly at the group and to the children in the group. I do feel people should be allowed to join groups of their own faith and feel safe in them. So, I sign. I doubt I will ever believe anyone else's statement of faith 100%. To me, the statements of faith are more about a code of behavior that a declaration of one's inner belief. I know the first home school group I was in made an altered statement of faith for a Mormon member that she would not teach other people's children contrary to what was in the statement of faith. I have had where early on, I pointed out that I did not fall 100% within the guidelines of the SOF, and they said that is fine, it is more about what you bring to the group and teach the other children.

 

SO..you could be open with the leaders and ask them to let you promise to just not teach anything to the contrary to the other children in the group. Or you could just sign and not worry about it (just don't violate it during group time). But if this is a big issue with you, where you only want to be in a place where you can preach your own religion, than you will likely have to form your own coop.

[Elisabet1]

Here it is either exclusively Christian (with a required declaration of faith) or exclusively secular (with a required declaration of agreement with a bunch of things I don't agree with). 

 

I don't understand, honestly, why it all has to be so segregated.  Is everyone (Christian and liberal/secular) so insecure in their beliefs that their kids must only associate with other kids of the same belief system? 

 

 

The secular group in our area is more exclusive than the religious groups. The secular group kicks out anyone they find out to have any sort of Christian affiliation. I mean, any sort at all. So, that includes anyone who is even the most liberal Christian and would not qualify for the Christian groups. But the Christian groups here tend to include just about anyone. They usually have SOF, but are not etched in stone on it.

[73349]

SO..you could be open with the leaders and ask them to let you promise to just not teach anything to the contrary to the other children in the group. Or you could just sign and not worry about it (just don't violate it during group time). But if this is a big issue with you, where you only want to be in a place where you can preach your own religion, than you will likely have to form your own coop.

 

I don't want to preach any religion to other people's children, but I also don't want theirs preached at mine. It would be nice for everyone to have the option of, say, watercolor painting or conversational Spanish without worrying about it one way or the other.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

We've never done co-ops so realize that is my bias but why does it have to be homeschool?  Can't you take extra music and art lessons from the same places that ps school kids take them - from private teachers?  (Yes, I know they get some in school but it really isn't much and many kids I know around here take other classes on their own as well.)  I don't know where you live and I'm sure it probably varies widely due to how rural or urban you might be etc. but here you can take art classes for kids through the local museums, Monart art studios (there may be other studios like this too)  or even specific classes on specific techniques at a place like Michael's.  Also the YMCA and community centers offer art classes as well as fitness classes that don't require kids to have been in teams from a young age.  

[AimeeM]

 

SO..you could be open with the leaders and ask them to let you promise to just not teach anything to the contrary to the other children in the group. Or you could just sign and not worry about it (just don't violate it during group time). But if this is a big issue with you, where you only want to be in a place where you can preach your own religion, than you will likely have to form your own coop.

 

A couple have been willing to let me sign just to state that I understand the group's beliefs, but their materials and classes are pretty centered on that worldview. I cannot, will not, sign something stating that I *agree* with the SOF, when I don't. To me that is too close to lying (just me, personally).

[AimeeM]

We've never done co-ops so realize that is my bias but why does it have to be homeschool?  Can't you take extra music and art lessons from the same places that ps school kids take them - from private teachers?  (Yes, I know they get some in school but it really isn't much and many kids I know around here take other classes on their own as well.)  I don't know where you live and I'm sure it probably varies widely due to how rural or urban you might be etc. but here you can take art classes for kids through the local museums, Monart art studios (there may be other studios like this too)  or even specific classes on specific techniques at a place like Michael's.  Also the YMCA and community centers offer art classes as well as fitness classes that don't require kids to have been in teams from a young age.  

 

You could, but we want to meet other homeschoolers too, so there's that ;)

[eternalsummer]

I understand why people with strong worldviews wouldn't want their kids to be taught things outside the worldview; heck, that's half the reason we started homeschooling, and we're not even religious!

 

But I don't see how in an art class, or a Latin class, or a geography class, or a roller skating meetup, you have to all believe the same things.  I mean, really?  I (the parent) have to have the same social, political, religious views as the other kids' parents so that my kid can roller skate with your kid, or go to the museum, or play at park day?  My kids are 9 and under - they don't even understand our political beliefs!  Or know them, except by osmosis!  They might accidentally tell your kids that God is a metaphor, or that tattoos are weird, though.  I don't mind if your kids tell them back  that God is real and Jesus is the savior, or that tattoos are cool.  I am okay with some exposure to the world.

 

There are a couple of more general/inclusive groups, but they are farther away. We're moving over there (the other side of the city) in a month or so, partially for the area and partially because of the homeschooling opportunities without declarations of faith or agreement with social beliefs or whatever.

[KarenC]

I hear you loud and clear.