S/O 3 is the new 5

[Entropymama]

After reading that thread I asked a teacher friend of mine what he thought about middle school being slowed down academically and he said it absolutely was. His words, as well as I can remember were, "Middle school doesn't really count for anything. It's used to teach kids how to take tests, how to write papers, how to be a high school student so they're used to it when they start high school." 

 

I thought that was.. interesting. 

[kwg]

That is interesting. But studying for a test, writing papers, those are good right?

 

Lately I have been very afraid of middle school (the homeschool version).  With all these hormones how do you teach anything?  The other day, my ds was crying over everything and I just gave up.

[Aurelia]

Most of those kids (at least in my area) have been studying how to take tests since first grade. I'm not sure why they would need more practice. The writing papers is good, but do they really need 3 years of remedial everything to learn that one skill? I thought part of the reason it was slowed down was due to hormones, too, but I never could figure out the rest of it.

[SKL]

I always noticed that the test score comparisons between my kids' private school and "all schools" shoots way up during the middle school years.  I always wondered about that.  Once someone said the middle school kids in public schools don't learn much because it's all about crowd control etc.  I dunno.  Public school kids in middle school appear pretty normal to me.

[kwg]

oh, I was thinking like study for a history test not state testing.

[abba12]

In Australia we don't have middle school. In my state we have primary school (grade prep-7) and high school (grade 8-12, with only 11 and 12 counting towards university admission). Some other states put grade 7 in high school, and primary is prep-6. I have noticed grades 4 and 5 can be kind of 'dead years' in math and LA, they are very content focused in my experience, and grade 7 (in my state) is definitely a transitional year focused on high school skills, but I wouldn't say any grade is a filler in our system. The concept is kind of weird, what a waste. I remember beginning new content and skills in every grade. (I am referencing my time in B&M schools here, as I was both homeschooled and public schooled)

 

I will say, when looking ahead at future homeschool curriculum, that I have often thought about just jumping to american 'high school' books around 6th or 7th, I guess I wasn't expecting too much after all!

[sassenach]

IMO, it's a good thing to focus on all of the executive skills needed for high school during that time.  That hormonal shift is so huge, I'm not sure that trying to teach them tons of new information is the right call.  At that point, they really do need more skills than facts.  They need to be spoon fed study skills, organizational skills, and all of those other major things that will help them in high school.  My dd went into ps in 8th grade, and I felt like they were still learning new things, but a TON of time and effort went into teaching them exactly *how* to be successful students.  How to make effective flash cards, how to pace a long-term project, how to approach a large essay, how to choose the right thesis...these are important too.

 

And quite frankly, I have yet to meet a middle schooler who had a fully functioning brain.  They need a little time and space to become human again.

[Entropymama]

I'm on the fence. I think it's a shame to 'waste' three years of school on test prep and learning to write essays.. but now that I have a 12 year old sometimes I wonder if it's possible to do more. :laugh:

 

Those hormones.. Imagine 400 kids with the same ups and downs! God bless those teachers.  

[Dmmetler]

My belief, having taught kids in PS at that age level, is that most kids would be better off spending those three years anywhere but a school setting, because so much of the focus is percolating hormones and social relationships. I swear the kids went BACKWARDS academically during that time!

 

I'm hoping that homeschooling avoids at least some of that! Although I also notice that middle school is when a lot of homeschoolers here start sending their kids to outsourced classes in droves....

 

 

 

[Butter]

Sometimes I think I live in an imaginary place with an imaginary school system.  I have nothing but good things to say about my son's public middle school.  It is NOTHING like my public middle school was.  It is amazing.  They are learning tons of real academic things.  They do experiments in science.  It's pretty awesome.  I'm sure it's partly my son's personality, but even the drama isn't bad (I've heard mixed on that from moms of girls at the same school).  So I agree with the OP's friend for my own middle school, not so much for my son's (actually, I've talked to teachers there and they even say it's different at that school than any middle school they've taught at in other districts, too, so I think there is something really special going on there).

[8filltheheart]

IMO, it's a good thing to focus on all of the executive skills needed for high school during that time. That hormonal shift is so huge, I'm not sure that trying to teach them tons of new information is the right call. At that point, they really do need more skills than facts. They need to be spoon fed study skills, organizational skills, and all of those other major things that will help them in high school. My dd went into ps in 8th grade, and I felt like they were still learning new things, but a TON of time and effort went into teaching them exactly *how* to be successful students. How to make effective flash cards, how to pace a long-term project, how to approach a large essay, how to choose the right thesis...these are important too.

 

And quite frankly, I have yet to meet a middle schooler who had a fully functioning brain. They need a little time and space to become human again.

I would be happy to invite you over. :).

 

My kids don't slow down during middle school. They typically have massive mental growth during middle school. They learn to do all the things you describe in the process of learning new material, not independently focused on those things.

[wapiti]

I'm *truly* amazed at both the content and skills that my dd has learned this year in 7th.  She's looking forward to the end of the school year to catch a break as this is reputed to be the hardest of the three years at her particular private middle school.  Her education there is not at all similar to the one I received in the random public middle school I attended.

 

My guess is that middle school stagnation is due to some combination of low expectations, lack of classroom decorum and a prior weak foundation in math and writing.

 

[regentrude]

Seeing expectations for students in grades 5-7 elsewhere in the world, I don't buy into the "the poor kids are hormonal and can't learn" theory.

There is no reason why American preteens' and teens' brains should develop at a slower pace that those of children in other countries - so any differences are not biological, but cultural.
The culture of low expectations does tremendous damage.

 

[momto2Cs]

After reading that thread I asked a teacher friend of mine what he thought about middle school being slowed down academically and he said it absolutely was. His words, as well as I can remember were, "Middle school doesn't really count for anything. It's used to teach kids how to take tests, how to write papers, how to be a high school student so they're used to it when they start high school." 

 

I thought that was.. interesting. 

 

That's why we're jumping to high school books for 8th grade. And why we used a few at that level for 7th.

 

We are going to work on the paper writing though!

 

I would be happy to invite you over. :).

 

My kids don't slow down during middle school. They typically have massive mental growth during middle school. They learn to do all the things you describe in the process of learning new material, not independently focused on those things.

 

I too am amazed at how much new information my son is packing into that brain of his. He's speeding up, asking for more, not slowing down. And I can see this starting in my dd as well.

[Desert Strawberry]

Sagg is only 11, so maybe he hasn't hit the wall yet. He is making tremendous gains, socially, developmentally, and academically. He's grown 6 inches in 6 months, so I doubt he isn't having all the hormonal swings that all of the other kids are.

 

He wants to accelerate next year. He has always been a slow thinker and a slow learner. Suddenly BAM he is racing ahead.

 

He may be an outlier. But at least some kids aren't following the path I keep hearing about.

 

Btw, he is also level headed, thoughtful, kind and helpful. All qualities I hear boys this age don't have. So maybe he is just different.

 

[MerryAtHope]

After reading that thread I asked a teacher friend of mine what he thought about middle school being slowed down academically and he said it absolutely was. His words, as well as I can remember were, "Middle school doesn't really count for anything. It's used to teach kids how to take tests, how to write papers, how to be a high school student so they're used to it when they start high school." 

 

I thought that was.. interesting. 

 

That is interesting (and that's what I tried to use MS in our homeschool for!)

[LibraryLover]

I've noticed my kids took big leaps in logical thinking in the pre and early teen years.  They also became more empathic.  Pre and young teens start to see the world through the eyes of others. Good literature can go a long way with this age, as it's a very introspective time. My two sons did B & M middle school (in a K-8 school), and I thought the programming was good. It was 8th grade where the Latin gold medals were awarded, fi. My kids did not sleep through middle school, homeschooled or not.  I agree that too many middle schools are not emotionally safe or educationally sound places for many children.

 

ETA: It was 7th grade when my youngest ds had to interview a WWII veteran. That was an excellent project, and got my son talking to folks he might not have met otherwise, hearing history first hand.  The presentation was so educational, as well as emotional; the Vets got to share items (uniforms, letters, medals etc) from their service, and be recognized at a luncheon at the school. It was an incredible experience, and I thought the age of the students was just right for that sort of intensity. It wasn't about them etc.

[ElizaG]

A few months ago, I came across some articles on this in a Catholic school journal circa 1915.  I can't find the link now, but at the time, it seemed to be well known among school principals (both public and parochial) that the average student could easily finish the eight grades of elementary school in six years.  The problem was that they also had a substantial number of students, including ESL and "late bloomers," who did need the whole eight years.  And they didn't want to differentiate before age 14, because it wasn't seen as the American way.    So their solution was just to have most of the students tread water for a couple of years, to let the slower ones catch up.   It seems as if not much has changed in the last hundred years.  

 

(This is also one of the factors that contributed to the demise of Catholic classical education in the United States.   In order to finish the traditional curriculum on time, students had to start Latin by 7th grade at the latest.  Since the parochial schools believed that not all their students were capable of learning it, they wouldn't teach it to any of them.   So they didn't begin Latin until age 14, which pushed the whole thing forward, and made the classical course impractical for those who didn't have the leisure to spend an extra two years studying.)

 

[shawthorne44]

I knew that pretending everyone is the same has seriously hampered the American schools.  But, I not realized it went so far back in time.  I always supposed that the grass was greener a hundred years ago.  

[Korrale]

I tutored struggling elementary school students. They have now moved onto middle school and they are excelling. I couldn't really understand how a student that was failing nearly all subjects could be doing so well a year later. I was hoping hard work was paying off... Maybe I am wrong, maybe the expectations are lower. Certainly something to discuss with my middle school teacher friends.

I do know that my students go through rapid personality changes in a very short period of time. They start wearing clothes (often inappropriate) to attract the opposite gender, and to show their queen be, alpha dominance, they start dating, the girls are wearing make up and freaking out about pregnancy, despite the fact that they have yet to have intercourse. There is a huge divide between the kids that do and don't use social networks. It is just so different. And it is all I hear about now. I don't hear anything about school itself, unless I am probing.

Elementary schoolers willing tell me more about their teacher and subjects that they are doing and what they are learning.

[SKL]

I remember when my kid brother hit a wall in math.  He was in Jr. High.  I decided to help him.  I was shocked to realize the amount of basic math he never learned in elementary school.  I mean, he had no clue about basic properties like 14x5 = 10x5+4x5.  No wonder he believed he was dumb.

 

With a little bit of breaking things down and finding a few things he excelled at, he morphed from a borderline student to an excellent one.  He was so proud to get 100% in a 7th grade English final.

 

The funny thing is that he was actually identified as exceptionally bright in 1st grade, and placed (temporarily) in an advanced 2nd grade class.  He could play almost anything on the piano, beautifully, despite never taking a single lesson.  He was not dumb.  How he managed to go through years of full-time school without acquiring basic basics and without any teacher even suggesting any remediation or anything ... this is how people lose respect for public schools.

[Farrar]

Seeing expectations for students in grades 5-7 elsewhere in the world, I don't buy into the "the poor kids are hormonal and can't learn" theory.

There is no reason why American preteens' and teens' brains should develop at a slower pace that those of children in other countries - so any differences are not biological, but cultural.

The culture of low expectations does tremendous damage.

 

I basically agree with this.  The brain growth is similar to when they're toddlers and there are obviously big challenges, but no one ever throws up their hands with their little kids and says they can't do it, slow them down, don't bother.  They know that kids have always learned those basic skills and they keep going and grin and bear the tantrum stage and work on new strategies.  

 

Back when I was teaching middle school, I had a distinct impression that many parents - with the best intentions - had been really surprised by their children entering pre-adolescence.  They were genuinely shocked in some cases.  The "where did my good little baby go?" sentiment was so widespread.  And, yeah, I'm watching my own kids enter that stage and I feel it emotionally, I get it.  But I also always knew it would happen.  I'm not surprised because that would be silly.  I feel like that lack of awareness is a lot of the culture of low expectations.  Parents just don't prepare for this stage and its various challenges and benefits.  By the time they - and their kids - have recovered it's high school.

 

I just think we have it all wrong.  Way too much of the wrong skills in the early grades, way too little of nearly everything in the middle grades.

[RootAnn]

We have plenty of hormones here  :willy_nilly:  but the worst brain-dead days are hopefully behind us. We do still have some *completely exhausted* days where a nap is necessary and we had plenty of "I need a snack" days. DD#1 has learned that a short walk or a bike ride sometimes helps her focus and recharge more than anything else.

 

My "middle school" was only 7th & 8th grade and they were some of the best learning & fun of my life. My French teacher really pushed us. I'm not sure I'd ever really *learned* science before 7th & 8th grade. Math competitions & math class were awesome there (although I'll always have a special place in my heart for the day I learned to integrate in 11th grade). "Current Events" class was extremely memorable - perhaps partially because of the '88 Presidential race (and 

debate occurring in my hometown). I know I didn't learn how to take notes or write a paper, though. English & Geography classes were duds for me - possibly teacher-related?

[wapiti]

An interesting article just showed up in my FB feed:  The brainstorm that changes teenagers into adults

 

One such myth is that adolescence is a time of life dominated by raging hormones.  ‘This is not the story,’ Siegel says, and claims that the hormones theory disempowers young people, because it seems there’s not much they can do about it.

During this time the brain is re-modelling, and the first part of this process is known as pruning. At about 12 or 13 years of age, the brain naturally starts to prune away an abundance of synaptic connections between its cells, destroying some neurons that have been laid down during childhood. 

 

The next stage of re-modelling is when myelin is laid down.  ‘Myelin allows the existing neurons, the ones that have remained through a use-it-or-lose-it principle [to be] 3,000 times more effective at communicating with each other,’ he says. ‘An integrated brain is actually more specialised and more efficient.’

use it or lose it - now there's some motivation :)

 

 

[Entropymama]

An interesting article just showed up in my FB feed:  The brainstorm that changes teenagers into adults

 

use it or lose it - now there's some motivation :)

 

THAT is fascinating. I need to read more about that.

[justamouse]

My middle schoolers are amazing, and so responsible. My 14 yo son is driven, wants to be a luthier, practices music all of the time, and was asked to be a counselor in training for the boy scout camp this year. He also was voted assistant patrol leader. 

When my oldest daughter was 14, she was the same way. I could have handed her the checkbook and she would have been able to take care of everything. 

No drama, some tears, and frustration, but on a whole the growth is amazing. This is when they really start to blossom. 

I edited to add that we did jump right into high school work, and I expected a lot out of them. 

 

[kwg]

That article reminds me of this books description.  It finally came in at the library!!!!  Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain

[Desert Strawberry]

I'm really excited to see that so many have jumped into high school work. I have been leaning in that direction as well.

[abba12]

I find the idea that grades 6 and 7 are a hormone driven mess amusing, because here it's generally thought grades 9 and 10 are a hormone driven mess, which tells me that cultural expectations play a HUGE part in the whole thing. I am pretty sure american childrens brains and australian childrens brains are not wired to go off 3 years apart, consistently.

 

I have seen a large number of middle schoolers who were expected to do a lot and did it. I don't buy that middle schoolers are too hormonal to learn. I know I personally achieved FAR more in grades 5-8 than in any other time in my schooling career, and that's with a lot of hormonal/emotional drama to boot. 

[MBM]

Hormones are not responsible for teenage problems; the massive pruning and rewiring of neurons during adolescence causes the problems ("changes" is a more accurate way to describe it). This is a distinct period of brain remodeling/reshaping that lasts about 12 years or so until about age 25.

[kiwik]

In NZ we have 3 options, primary y1 to 8 (most rural schools) then high school (y9 to 13), y1 to y6 then 7 to 13 (not that common but not unusual) and most common in cities, y1 to 6 primary, y7 and 8 intermediate and 9 to 13 high school. I had the first option but i have yet to find much advantage to disrupting the kids for 2 years. I used to think it was so they could have specialist teachers but it turns out the same teacher teaches all subjects like in primary. The only difference is having workshops etc for manual education on site rather than going once a week by bus like i did.

 

Anyway there seems to be at best no advance and at worst regression academically over the 2 years.

[KarenC]

Maybe we have been lucky, but we haven't seen major hormonal problems at this age or a significant middle school crisis.  Our youngest dd started middle school this year and it suprises me that anyone would assume kids this age would have a problem learning.  It never occurred to me to expect less of them during these years.

 

Of course they had bad days every now and then, but so did I.  We just kept on chugging through middle school.

[Walking-Iris]

"We have, instead, created a holding stage that keeps young people in a limbo, into which children enter earlier and adults stay longer year by year." -Joseph Chilton Pierce.

 

I have friends who are middle school teachers, and my dh subbed for several years in middle school. Most agree that it is in some ways a rough time.

 

I really appreciate Maria Montessori's idea of an Erdkinder http://montessoritraining.blogspot.com/2013/04/montessori-adolescent-programs-erdkinder.html#.U1-vBoFdVSo

 

The basic premise is that these children from about 12- 15 or so may do best learning in a more experiential and active way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiential_learning

 

People have been posting about hormones etc...but I feel that's just a mild issue. IMHO these are the years when a child is less likely to appreciate being forced to stay inside a building, sitting, reading and writing, and listening. Which is basically what public education is.

 

These are the years when these kids need to be doing. In a lot of ways education has it backwards. We easily acknowledge a young preschoolers need to move and touch and play. But we fail in so many ways of allowing the young adolescence from the same free movement and activity. Books and paper can only teach so much. 

 

These kids don't have a problem learning. IMHO society has a problem allowing them to actually BE a part of society. Shadowing various adults and learning practical things like farming, gardening, car care, home repair, carpentry, animal care, engineering, science labs in the field, art, music, math and so on.

 

They don't learn these things under any sort of mentorship or apprenticeship any longer. They are not typically free to self educate and follow interests. 

 

I honestly feel the problems we adults have with adolescence are because we "institutionalize" them and keep them from actually doing anything. They are bursting to do and learn, and yet they are kept within four walls for hours a day watching and listening and most of their education comes from printed materials. and their education is so controlled and dictated to a high degree.

 

It may be best for them to spend most of their time in a hands on way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

From what I remember Middle school wasn't really a time to explore new material,  I remember it as a time when the elementary fundamentals were nailed down solidly so that we would be prepared for high school. It seems much the same for many of my homeschool curriculums too. however, I do remember middle school as a time when we first explored history and science in depth. I loved middle school history and science.

 

FWIW, I am glad that my homeschool gives my kids a chance to have a do-over at material that they may be wobbly on before they move onto high school. My middle dd struggles with retention, so sixth grade math has been good for her to go back over that old stuff before we introduce complex higher maths. My oldest dd needed it because she would rush through elementary lessons and sometimes miss things.

 

Because we have a larger family, I haven't been as careful with my olders details. If they were passing the tests with an A or a B I was okay. Giving them gentle middle school material has given them confidence to tackle the complexity of high school.

 

So we might not be the typical homeschooling over achievers, but it works for us.

[fairfarmhand]

"We have, instead, created a holding stage that keeps young people in a limbo, into which children enter earlier and adults stay longer year by year." -Joseph Chilton Pierce.

 

I have friends who are middle school teachers, and my dh subbed for several years in middle school. Most agree that it is in some ways a rough time.

 

People have been posting about hormones etc...but I feel that's just a mild issue. IMHO these are the years when a child is less likely to appreciate being forced to stay inside a building, sitting, reading and writing, and listening. Which is basically what public education is.

 

These are the years when these kids need to be doing. In a lot of ways education has it backwards. We easily acknowledge a young preschoolers need to move and touch and play. But we fail in so many ways of allowing the young adolescence from the same free movement and activity. Books and paper can only teach so much. 

 

These kids don't have a problem learning. IMHO society has a problem allowing them to actually BE a part of society. Shadowing various adults and learning practical things like farming, gardening, car care, home repair, carpentry, animal care, engineering, science labs in the field, art, music, math and so on.

 

They don't learn these things under any sort of mentorship or apprenticeship any longer. They are not typically free to self educate and follow interests. 

 

I honestly feel the problems we adults have with adolescence are because we "institutionalize" them and keep them from actually doing anything. They are bursting to do and learn, and yet they are kept within four walls for hours a day watching and listening and most of their education comes from printed materials. and their education is so controlled and dictated to a high degree.

 

It may be best for them to spend most of their time in a hands on way.

 

This is really a great point. While my middle schoolers are refreshing their academic experiences, they are exploring other interests in more detail.

 

My older  dd worked really hard in 4H. She developed her music skills. She learned to sew.

 

My younger dd has experienced the same way. She spends hours writing and illustrating stories. She posts them online and her friends follow them. 

[raptor_dad]

 

I'm hoping that homeschooling avoids at least some of that! Although I also notice that middle school is when a lot of homeschoolers here start sending their kids to outsourced classes in droves....

 

In our area, there are very few secular/academic coops for elementary age kids. However, lots of coops and outside classes are available starting around age 10-12. So, some of what you are seeing is probably parents needing a break from their kids and kids needing a break from their parents to interact with kids their age. But, a lot of it could just be due to the increased opportunities that available starting at that age. You could argue which direction cause and effect goes here. I don't have the impression that sudden increased demand is the driving issue. The ease of structuring classes and greater maturity and independence seem to be more important.

[hepatica]

 

 

 

These kids don't have a problem learning. IMHO society has a problem allowing them to actually BE a part of society. Shadowing various adults and learning practical things like farming, gardening, car care, home repair, carpentry, animal care, engineering, science labs in the field, art, music, math and so on.

 

They don't learn these things under any sort of mentorship or apprenticeship any longer. They are not typically free to self educate and follow interests. 

 

I honestly feel the problems we adults have with adolescence are because we "institutionalize" them and keep them from actually doing anything. They are bursting to do and learn, and yet they are kept within four walls for hours a day watching and listening and most of their education comes from printed materials. and their education is so controlled and dictated to a high degree.

 

It may be best for them to spend most of their time in a hands on way.

 

This is a lovely post and spot on, IMO!

 

I would also like to point out that children, like adults, are different. Some kids may have little difficulty with adolescent hormones or brain growth or whatever, but others may experience those changes acutely. I know some people who seem to take everything in stride shrugging off changes in weather, seasons, allergens, hormones, life circumstances etc. as if they were nothing. I also know people who are extremely sensitive, and feel these changes on a much deeper level. It's a good thing that the world is made up of different kinds of people. So, just because some adolescents coast through middle school without a hitch, that does not mean that the experiences of those who struggle are less valid. And, it is entirely possible that those who do not find middle school challenging will meet their challenges at some other point in their lives. In general, it would be nice if educational goals and methods could accommodate all kinds of learning and allow kids to change and grow and struggle when necessary without casting them off as failures. There are plenty of late bloomers who do not excel until college or later. 

[medawyn]

My only experience with middle schoolers is as an 8th grade teacher, but I loved the age.  (I might feel differently about parenting it - they definitely saved some of their more charming attitudes for home!)

 

I definitely did NOT slow them down or keep them in a holding pattern during the year.  I was teaching in a private school that terminated after 8th grade, and the kids scattered to half a dozen high schools, each with very different expectations and styles of teaching.  My job was to prepare them all to be successful in whatever environment they landed in, and the biggest compliment I got every year is when students would come back and let me know that 9th grade was easy because of what they did in my classroom.

 

I did find it a funny mix in terms of giving the students increased responsibility and them needing extra handholding.  I stressed study skills, but more importantly, I stressed that each student needed to find the skills that worked for them; i.e. I demanded flash cards or outlines but gave several methods of completing them that I would accept.  It was also a year where many students were in the midst of transitioning from black and white thinking to more abstract thinking; there was a range of concrete to abstract thinkers, but I constantly pushed them to broaden their perspective (and their new brain skills).

 

They wrote A LOT.  A minimum of two paragraphs a week, plus many five paragraph essays, as well as a longer piece of sustained writing each quarter (varying in genre).  We read "Great Books" (Macbeth, Beowulf), and some challenging young adult novels (Ender's Game, The Book Thief).  I required a variety of independent reading across genres.  I know my class was a lot of work.  I look back and wonder how I kept up with the grading!

 

But, almost every student who left my class would tell me that it was the hardest class they had taken to date (a group of my honors kids said it prepared them for the AP Lit exam better than their sr year teacher), but that they were so proud of themselves when they finished.  I think middle school kids NEED to be challenged and to feel like our expectations of them are real and serious; who wants to waste time being spoken down to or pandered to all the time?  The pride is in the accomplishment and the feeling of meeting a challenge.

[8filltheheart]

In our area, there are very few secular/academic coops for elementary age kids. However, lots of coops and outside classes are available starting around age 10-12. So, some of what you are seeing is probably parents needing a break from their kids and kids needing a break from their parents to interact with kids their age. But, a lot of it could just be due to the increased opportunities that available starting at that age. You could argue which direction cause and effect goes here. I don't have the impression that sudden increased demand is the driving issue. The ease of structuring classes and greater maturity and independence seem to be more important.

 

I disagree.   I think you start to see more kids taking outsourced classes in middle school b/c parents start to question their ability to provide their children with a quality education and they find "safety in numbers."   Surely if a lot of other parents are putting their kids in the classes, they must be good??  :ohmy:  ETA:   It is also why some parents are terrified of homeschooling high school and either enroll their children back in school or outsource everything.

[raptor_dad]

I disagree.   I think you start to see more kids taking outsourced classes in middle school b/c parents start to question their ability to provide their children with a quality education and they find "safety in numbers."   Surely if a lot of other parents are putting their kids in the classes, they must be good??  :ohmy:  ETA:   It is also why some parents are terrified of homeschooling high school and either enroll their children back in school or outsource everything.

 

OK, fair enough. I deeply respect your opinions based on your much larger experience than mine...

 

However, here in MN I see many religious coops at the elementary level and nearly no secular coops. Maybe our situations is unique... but I was at our gifted homeschool conference in the past few weeks and many parents were lamenting the lack of elementary options... 

 

I belive secular/academic families tend to have fewer outside options in the younger years as opposed to middle school and beyond. My experience is that many parents want more outside options regardless of age. Fewer options are available at younger ages.

 

I think an increased level of course offerings at higher grade levels is common...I just don't buy the premise that it is entirely due to parent discomfort. Middle school parents undoubtably have unique needs but I don't think that explains the entire surge in outplacements at this level. 

[8filltheheart]

OK, fair enough. I deeply respect your opinions based on your much larger experience than mine...

 

However, here in MN I see many religious coops, which require statements of faith that many people aren't willing to sign, at the elementary level and nearly no secular coops. Maybe our situations is unique... but I was at our gifted homeschool conference in the past few weeks and many parents were lamenting the lack of elementary options...  Maybe out religious/secular divide is atypical. Our Congress person is black and Muslim and a founder of the progressive caucus while in metro we have Michelle Bachman, a founding member of the Tea party caucus. I'm not suggesting this a political issue... However, these issues reflect the cultural divide that we experience.  I've lived in RTP and NoVa as well as in Louisville, so  I understand our issues are not unique.

 

I belive secular/academic families tend to have fewer outside options in the younger years as opposed to middle school and beyond. We've also lived in the Pacific Northwest when our kid were very young, there I think the issue was different.

 

My experience is that many parents want more outside options regardless of age. Fewer options are available at younger ages. I am considering running a elementary math circle. *All* of the parents who were presenting at the gifted conference had run limited enrollment groups during their kids' elementary years. I find it hard to believe that this dynamic is limited to the gifted community.

 

I think an increased level of course offerings at higher grade levels is entirely typical...I just don't buy the premise that it is entirely due to parent discomfort. Middle school parents undoubtably have unique needs but I don't think that explains the entire surge in outplacements at this level. 

 

I have definitely seen the secular/specific theology divide (I am not willing to say Christian divide b/c trust me, there are plenty of Christian groups that won't allow the "non-like-minded" to join their groups.

 

However, I also do not accept the premise that somehow secular parents are offering great academic opportunities while the Christian homeschoolers aren't.   I have seen secular groups using MUS for their co-op math, etc.   Honestly, I have never seen a co-op I like academically, secular, Christian, or all inclusive.   All of the ones we have lived near have fallen into the same "academically avg" trap as schools.   (And we move a lot.   My 4 older kids will have graduated from 3 different states.)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I have no idea about the co-op situation because we avoid those, but it's been my experience in our current location that there are definitely more opportunities at the middle school level. Opportunities that would be impossible for me to recreate at home.

[Walking-Iris]

I have no idea about the co-op situation because we avoid those, but it's been my experience in our current location that there are definitely more opportunities at the middle school level. Opportunities that would be impossible for me to recreate at home.

 

 

There are a lot of things that would be impossible for me to recreate at home. I sort of assume that is a risk one takes when choosing to homeschool. That there are situations in a public school that your child wouldn't participate.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

There are a lot of things that would be impossible for me to recreate at home. I sort of assume that is a risk one takes when choosing to homeschool. That there are situations in a public school that your child wouldn't participate.

 

 If I saw local public schools offering better opportunities than I could offer at home, with no added downsides, I probably wouldn't be homeschooling. :)

 

My goal isn't to homeschool. My goal is to offer the best opportunities available during each season. Sometimes that means homeschooling all subjects, sometimes not.

[8filltheheart]

I have no idea about the co-op situation because we avoid those, but it's been my experience in our current location that there are definitely more opportunities at the middle school level. Opportunities that would be impossible for me to recreate at home.

 

I'm curious as to what sort of c0-op situations exist that offer superior opportunities?   I seriously have never seen one, so I am asking sincerely.

[Walking-Iris]

 If I saw local public schools offering better opportunities than I could offer at home, with no added downsides, I probably wouldn't be homeschooling. :)

 

My goal isn't to homeschool. My goal is to offer the best opportunities available during each season. Sometimes that means homeschooling all subjects, sometimes not.

 

 

I live in an area where homeschoolers can not participate in any of the schools for a class or extracurricular activity. 

 

My goal is to homeschool, because where I currently live, there will always (likely) be several undesirable downsides to the two (well 3 if I count a small Christian school (Abeka) that I would never consider) options we have for a B&M school, downsides that I'm not comfortable with.

 

If we lived elsewhere and I had more of a variety of options. I'd consider other alternatives.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm curious as to what sort of c0-op situations exist that offer superior opportunities?   I seriously have never seen one, so I am asking sincerely.

I'm not sure why you are asking me.  :huh:  My post specifically stated that I have no idea about co-ops because we avoid them.

 

I live in an area where homeschoolers can not participate in any of the schools for a class or extracurricular activity. 

 

My goal is to homeschool, because where I currently live, there will always (likely) be several undesirable downsides to the two (well 3 if I count a small Christian school (Abeka) that I would never consider) options we have for a B&M school, downsides that I'm not comfortable with.

 

If we lived elsewhere and I had more of a variety of options. I'd consider other alternatives.

We don't do anything with local schools either.  But yes, there are a variety of other options here.

[8filltheheart]

I'm not sure why you are asking me.  :huh:  My post specifically stated that I have no idea about co-ops because we avoid them.

 

 

I was asking b/c of the suggestion that there were better opportunities that couldn't be replicated at home. It doesn't have to be co-op.   I'm just wondering what class options are superior.   (club type activities, I agree.   Math circles  are definitely just one example that are superior.   But that is more enrichment than core b/c kids in math circles are doing it extracurricularly) 

 

I just have never seen anything that is better than what I can do myself at the middle school level.   Even for the high school level,  I would rather spend about the equivalent or slightly more for a private tutor/DE class/or really high quality online class (though with so many MOOC options these days, low cost options abound.)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I was asking b/c of the suggestion that there were better opportunities that couldn't be replicated at home. It doesn't have to be co-op.   I'm just wondering what class options are superior.   (club type activities, I agree.   Math circles  are definitely just one example that are superior.   But that is more enrichment than core b/c kids in math circles are doing it extracurricularly) 

 

I just have never seen anything that is better than what I can do myself at the middle school level.   Even for the high school level,  I would rather spend about the equivalent or slightly more for a private tutor/DE class/or really high quality online class (though with so many MOOC options these days, low cost options abound.)

 

I think we're talking past each other. Aren't the options you listed-- having a tutor, DE class, etc-- forms of outsourcing? I never said the options were low cost. Nor do I say that now. ;)

[8filltheheart]

I think we're talking past each other. Aren't the options you listed-- having a tutor, DE class, etc-- forms of outsourcing? I never said the options were low cost. Nor do I say that now. ;)

I was referring to those for the high school level. In the post I was referring to, you referred to middle school.

 

But.....no biggie. I was just curious about what great options were there for middle school bc I was genuinely wondering.