qustion about "On the Shores of Silver Lake" by Laura Ingalls

[Iskra]

So we finished reading "On the banks of Plum Creek" and just started "On the shores of Silver Lake".  Is that the correct sequence?  In the first chapter Mary is blind and apparently Caroline has had another baby girl - Grace.   Where we left off in the previous book she wasn't even pregnant and no one was sick.  I feel like there is a book (or at least few chapters) missing.  All the other books so far seemed to continue right where the previous book ended.    Are we missing something?

[PeachyDoodle]

That's correct. She just jumps forward a bit between books. It's Plum Creek, then Silver Lake, then Long Winter, Little Town, and Happy Golden Years, IIRC.

[Rachel]

I had the same feeling when I was reading them, you don't miss anything, she jumped ahead.

[FaithManor]

That is the correct sequence. Back then it was very taboo to talk much about pregnancy or even the horrors of illness in children's books. Laura skipped quite a lot that took place in the intervening years. There were two babies born, Charles Frederick, and he died at 9 months or so of age. They lost crops, moved to Burr Oak, Iowa, and Pa managed a "restaurant" while they lived above, but in fact, it was a saloon that served food or something like that. It was a VERY rough time. They moved back to Plum Creek and hoped to do better on the farm. It produced a couple of small crops, but with a new baby, Mary, Carrie, and Ma having scarlet fever so doctor's bills were heavy, etc. they just couldn't cut it which is why pa took the job with the railroad.

 

Most of Laura's books are out of sync chronologically. Carrie was born in Kansas. There two attempts to settle in that territory; the first one was unsuccessful and they went back to the Big Woods. The trip she chronicles in Little House on the Prairie is the second trip. She really just hit some highlights of her life, but again, it wasn't meant to necessarily be autobiographical. They were meant to be children's books that gave kids a glimpse into the lives of "settling west".

 

She makes a HUGE deal about food in the book on Almanzo. This is believed to be because of their near starving times more than once in her childhood. There were other incidents of not enough food to eat during these travels besides just The Long Winter. As for Almanzo, he was not the youngest, and there was a married, older sister who would have been living in the house at the time that Farmer Boy was written. She had been abandoned by her husband, and it was thought to be fairly inappropriate to mention her circumstances in the book.

 

 

[Kerileanne99]

We just finished On the Shores of Silver Lake and I felt that same disconnect when we started, but yes, that is the correct sequence. I actually felt like this entire book was just a bit different, or at least a much more sophisticated writing. Lots more imagery. Of course, Laura is growing up so the 'book' is too, but it really was more of a leap to this one than through the others.

I was so used to the style that I was quite unprepared by the small snippets of violence in this one. The paymaster being 'strung up', Ma and the girls hiding in the attic whilst her drunken boarders are downstairs, Pa's tussle in the line to file for his claim, and even the murder of a man by a claim-jumper.

Really, it is all done well, with very little detail that could be intense. We are really open with our child but she IS still young! I guess I should have re-read this one since I originally read them too many moons ago:)

And wouldn't you know, she was more offended by the Pa accidentally shooting a swan than any of the above!

[Matryoshka]

Yep, the books are autobiographical, but are not autobiographies, but fiction based on events in her childhood.

 

In the main series of books, she also fudges Almanzo's age to be younger (saying he'd lied about how old he was to get a claim - he didn't have to), as she thought the 10-year age difference was not appropriate.  The real age difference is mentioned in The First Four Years, which I believe was published posthumously, so Laura never got to edit it for publication.  And apparently IRL there was another family living with them during The Long Winter - with a baby no less - who just sat there like lumps and didn't elp out, so it was even worse than in the book.

[Iskra]

Thank you for all this information guys.  FaithManor, my kids would like to know where did you get all that information about the discrepancies and  what happend between the books.  They would like to read that too.  Is there a biography of her life written by someone else, that has all the facts straight?

[DianeW88]

That is the weirdest of the "Little House" books, in my opinion.  And Jack dies, which makes me cry like a baby ever since I read it at nine.  So, when we get to that one, my kids read it to themselves, and then I pick up with "Long Winter".  My kids think I'm insane for crying over a dog that died almost 150 years ago, but there you have it.  I loved that dog. :D

[Rachel]

I was looking at a website for one of the sites you can visit, there was some additional information about her life there.

 

After reading The First Four Years I was wondering how much her daughter influenced the writing of the previous books, I felt it had a very different feel to the story telling.

[Erin]

That is the weirdest of the "Little House" books, in my opinion.  And Jack dies, which makes me cry like a baby ever since I read it at nine.  So, when we get to that one, my kids read it to themselves, and then I pick up with "Long Winter".  My kids think I'm insane for crying over a dog that died almost 150 years ago, but there you have it.  I loved that dog. :D

Us too!

In fact, the kids named our Jack for hers.   :)

[Jenny in Florida]

Thank you for all this information guys.  FaithManor, my kids would like to know where did you get all that information about the discrepancies and  what happend between the books.  They would like to read that too.  Is there a biography of her life written by someone else, that has all the facts straight?

 

 

I recently listened to a pair of Stuff You Missed in History Class podcasts about Laura Ingalls Wilder that covered a lot of those details. It might be worth looking up and listening to, so you could share the information with your daughter.

 

Here's a link to the podcast archive: http://www.howstuffworks.com/podcasts/stuff-you-missed-in-history-class.rss

 

There are two Wilder-themed episodes, one about Laura's life and the books, generally, and another focusing on The Long Winter.

[DianeW88]

Thank you for all this information guys.  FaithManor, my kids would like to know where did you get all that information about the discrepancies and  what happend between the books.  They would like to read that too.  Is there a biography of her life written by someone else, that has all the facts straight?

 

There are lots of biographies on her life, but you won't necessarily see the same Ingalls family that you've seen in the books.  There's a whole lot of messiness between Plum Creek and Silver Lake.  And Laura's timeline does not jive with the reality of her life.  And then there's the time that Pa hustled his family into the wagon and moved away in the dead of night to escape debt collectors.

So, it depends on how much you (and your kids) want to know the real Ingalls family. ;)

 

William Anderson paints a fairly sanitized picture that's suitable for kids.  He is the heir to the Ingalls fortune and has the rights to all of Laura's books.

 

If you want to read a collection of articles Laura wrote for her local newspaper when she and Almanzo lived on Rocky Ridge farm, this is a great book: http://www.amazon.com/Little-Ozarks-Ingalls-Wilder-Family/dp/0883659689/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1390321404&sr=8-21&keywords=laura+ingalls+wilder+biography

 

I like this one as well, for more in Laura's own words:

http://www.amazon.com/Little-House-Reader-Collection-Writings/dp/006026358X/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&qid=1390321486&sr=8-37&keywords=laura+ingalls+wilder+biography

 

This is one that really gets the blood of Laura fans boiling, as it is a very honest portrayal, and does discuss the fact, that the majority of the Little House books were HEAVILY edited by Rose (as she was, by far, the better writer of the two), and that they are a collaborative effort between mother and daughter, even though Laura is listed as the sole author.  I found it fascinating, and I don't care if Rose really wrote them all.  http://www.amazon.com/The-Ghost-Little-House-BIOGRAPHY/dp/0826210155/ref=sr_1_48?ie=UTF8&qid=1390321552&sr=8-48&keywords=laura+ingalls+wilder+biography

 

If you delve into serious biographies about Laura (for adults), be prepared to hear that some things that happen in the book are not true.  Mary Ingalls went to the College for the Blind on government grants...not money that Laura earned from teaching school (that's Rose's libertarian beliefs at play there).  And that Caroline Ingalls was a harsh, cold, unfeeling mother, that Laura really struggled with.  Some of her writings about her relationship with her mother were very interesting.  And as Laura has said herself, she wrote her stories for her father...whom she adored.  Not for her cold fish of a mother, who was more concerned about appearances and propriety than her family's feelings.  Although, I myself may have turned a bit bitter after being dragged from pillar to post by my ADHD husband who couldn't settle and be satisfied in one place.  LOL  And if you really want your eyes opened, read what Laura had to say about the Homesteading Act and the government.

 

Anyway, I adore the Ingalls family.  More so in the reality that was their lives.  I understand the sanitized version that is the "Little House" series...they were written for children.  But the real version is SO much more interesting, complex, and nuanced.  She really did lead a fascinating life.

[Acorn]

I think that Jack actually died earlier but Laura didn't want to include it in the earlier books because she meant them for a younger audience.  I think "On the Shores of Silver Lake" really marks the end of childhood.

[Muttichen]

I remember being surprised by On the Shores of Silver Lake when I was reading the books aloud to my kids many years ago. It was suddenly so much darker than the other books. I've since reread them and realized that Laura was very careful with the point of view.  Her character was four/five in Big Woods and the things she notices and observes are totally from a four or five year old's perspective.  As she gets older, the perspective changes.  By Silver Lake, she's a teenager and she notices her parents' struggles in a way she didn't when she was little.  That is one of the things that makes her writing so masterful.

 

I also love that we have The First Four Years the way she wrote it in her notebook.  I always talk to kids about that when I teach creative writing -- comparing it to the "finished" books really shows the power of revision.

 

[Trish]

Wasn't there some involvement with a serial killer in her history? (The "saloon years," maybe?) I forget if I read that here or somewhere else. I'm sure that detail doesn't appear in the books!

[Erin]

Wasn't there some involvement with a serial killer in her history? (The "saloon years," maybe?) I forget if I read that here or somewhere else. I'm sure that detail doesn't appear in the books!

http://boingboing.net/2012/08/20/little-house-on-the-prairie-s.html

 

Holy smokes!

 

 

There were Kate Bender and two men, her brothers, in the family and their tavern was the only place for travelers to stop on the road south from Independence. People disappeared on that road. Leaving Independence and going south they were never heard of again. It was thought they were killed by Indians but no bodies were ever found.

Then it was noticed that the Benders’ garden was always freshly plowed but never planted. People wondered. And then a man came from the east looking for his brother, who was missing.

... In the cellar underneath was the body of a man whose head had been crushed by the hammer. It appeared that he had been seated at the table back to the curtain and had been struck from behind it. A grave was partly dug in the garden with a shovel close by. The posse searched the garden and dug up human bones and bodies. One body was that of a little girl who had been buried alive with her murdered parents. The garden was truly a grave-yard kept plowed so it would show no signs. The night of the day the bodies were found a neighbor rode up to our house and talked earnestly with Pa. Pa took his rifle down from its place over the door and said to Ma, “The vigilantes are called out.†Then he saddled a horse and rode away with the neighbor. It was late the next day when he came back and he never told us where he had been. For several years there was more or less a hunt for the Benders and reports that they had been seen here or there. At such times Pa always said in a strange tone of finality, “They will never be found.â€

However, in the commentary from the same page:

except that there's no way Pa Ingalls could have been involved in the vigilante justice meted out on the Benders. As blogger and literature Ph.D. candidate Kate points out at the Condensery, the Benders weren't actually exposed until 1873. This was two years afterthe Ingalls family left Kansas.

So why tell people that you left a story out of your memoir, when that story is not true? That's an interesting question, and I think it calls up some of the key issues involved with writing about your own past — especially your own childhood. How much do you actually remember about early childhood?

[Cinder]

I recently listened to a pair of Stuff You Missed in History Class podcasts about Laura Ingalls Wilder that covered a lot of those details. It might be worth looking up and listening to, so you could share the information with your daughter.

 

Here's a link to the podcast archive: http://www.howstuffworks.com/podcasts/stuff-you-missed-in-history-class.rss

 

There are two Wilder-themed episodes, one about Laura's life and the books, generally, and another focusing on The Long Winter.

 

Thanks for the link--that podcast looks like a good one!

[Iskra]

Very interesting thread.  Thank you for all the info.  Btw, how old was Laura when she wrote the books?  And also, were all of them edited by Rose (except for the "First 4 years")?

[Scarlett]

Yep, the books are autobiographical, but are not autobiographies, but fiction based on events in her childhood.

 

In the main series of books, she also fudges Almanzo's age to be younger (saying he'd lied about how old he was to get a claim - he didn't have to), as she thought the 10-year age difference was not appropriate.  The real age difference is mentioned in The First Four Years, which I believe was published posthumously, so Laura never got to edit it for publication.  And apparently IRL there was another family living with them during The Long Winter - with a baby no less - who just sat there like lumps and didn't elp out, so it was even worse than in the book.

 

 

And one would think nothing could be worse than TLW.  When I read it as a kid I dont remember feeling that way....but when I read it to ds I HATED it.  It drug on and on...which I guess is how it did in real life!  I realize now they all nearly starved to death during that time.  Wow.

[Alicia64]

That is the weirdest of the "Little House" books, in my opinion.  And Jack dies, which makes me cry like a baby ever since I read it at nine.  So, when we get to that one, my kids read it to themselves, and then I pick up with "Long Winter".  My kids think I'm insane for crying over a dog that died almost 150 years ago, but there you have it.  I loved that dog. :D

 

ME TOO! And don't get me started on Toto!

 

Alley

[Alicia64]

Very interesting thread.  Thank you for all the info.  Btw, how old was Laura when she wrote the books?  And also, were all of them edited by Rose (except for the "First 4 years")?

 

Rose grew up to be an author herself and there's a lot of thought that she actually wrote all of the books, but gave her mom the credit.

 

When they've compared Laura's journal notes w/ her actual books -- the grammar doesn't add up. She just didn't have the education that Rose had.

 

Take writing from a five year old's perspective and shifting to an older person's perspective as the books go on -- that takes real skill.

 

I tend to think Rose is the author.

 

(Please don't attack everyone!)

 

Alley

[vonfirmath]

How does the writing in the book compare to the newspaper articles Laura wrote?

 

Or is it thought Rose wrote the articles as well?

 

[Alicia64]

How does the writing in the book compare to the newspaper articles Laura wrote?

 

Or is it thought Rose wrote the articles as well?

 

That's a really good point. Laura did write her columns. (I think.)

 

I'm stepping out of this now -- I feel stupid for bringing it up! :) I know we all love the Little House books so much. Me included. I read them aloud to my boys -- all eight books -- when they were six and again when they were eight.

 

Here's a book from a man who researched the Rose v. Laura question: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/508438.The_Ghost_in_the_Little_House.

 

Alley. . . who is occupied pulling her foot out of her mouth!

[Moxie]

This is so interesting! So often, I've heard Laura being held up as a model for homeschooling because Ma taught them so much and she went on to be a famous author. Something to think on.

 

Of course, my library has none of the books linked. Typical.

[Unicorn.]

I find it interesting that so many of you think Rose actually wrote the books, because I remember reading a book by Rose, and thinking it was no where near the caliber of Laura. 

 

As for TLW and Silver Lake, they are two of my favorites in the series, along w/ Big Woods. 

 

And didn't everybody love, and want a dog just like Jack?

[momma2three]

My understanding is that Rose lost much of her parents' money (not that there was much) in the stock market crash of '29, and that Rose agreed to "help" her mother write the books to make some money.  She was already a celebrated author, and a very successful ghost writer, and so it's definitely not a stretch to think that she heavily edited, possibly to the point of ghost writing, the stories.  I tend to agree that she did, and I don't totally understand why that's so controversial.  They're still great stories, and it's nice that Rose gave her mother full credit.  (And they did NOT have a good relationship IRL, so it's extra nice that she helped her parents in this way.)

 

And one would think nothing could be worse than TLW.  When I read it as a kid I dont remember feeling that way....but when I read it to ds I HATED it.  It drug on and on...which I guess is how it did in real life!  I realize now they all nearly starved to death during that time.  Wow.

 

I had the same experience!  As a kid, I remember it reading like an adventure story.  As an adult, it HORRIFIED me.  Like, really upset me.  I felt that way about a bunch of stuff in the book, though.  As a kid, I totally didn't get how close to starvation they were for pretty much all of the books.  "On the Shores" also upset me as a kid, because I didn't really understand what was going on, and I knew that I didn't understand what was going on.  Like, Ma and Pa lock the girls upstairs every night when they're feeding the team... I didn't really understand why, but I knew it must be really dangerous, and it made me really uncomfortable that all the men would hurt the girls.  I was only in 2nd grade when I read them.

 

This is so interesting! So often, I've heard Laura being held up as a model for homeschooling because Ma taught them so much and she went on to be a famous author. Something to think on.

Of course, my library has none of the books linked. Typical.

 

That, and Laura started school at age 3 in the Big Woods!  The girls weren't homeschooled by any stretch of the imagination, though their mother probably worked with them, 19th century "after schooling" style.  The real Laura started school in Pepin at age 3, and Ma insists in the books that they only move places that the girls can go to school.  I have noticed that many homeschoolers seem to really celebrate her, but IMO they tend to concentrate on the things that aren't actually true in Laura's real life.

 

 

[Matryoshka]

Rose grew up to be an author herself and there's a lot of thought that she actually wrote all of the books, but gave her mom the credit.

 

When they've compared Laura's journal notes w/ her actual books -- the grammar doesn't add up. She just didn't have the education that Rose had.

 

Take writing from a five year old's perspective and shifting to an older person's perspective as the books go on -- that takes real skill.

 

I tend to think Rose is the author.

 

(Please don't attack everyone!)

 

Alley

 

Rose also wrote a few of her own novels and stories based on the prairie, some of them based on her mother's experiences.  The voice is completely different.  I tend to believe she helped edit (and helped edit, not did all the editing), but I don't believe she wrote them. 

 

The last book wasn't edited by Laura either.  And if you want a good look at Laura's writing and voice other than her many articles as a published author over many years, there's a great compilation of her letters to Almanzo from when she visited the San Francisco World Fair with Rose (and got to ride an airplane!), called West from Home, which are her writing and her voice.  She is very well spoken (the daily diary she wrote on the way to Missouri, on the other hand, is very terse and matter-of-fact and obviously just written for herself, not an audience).

 

Rose's writing is just very different.  She never had any children and I don't think had any particular sense of what was appropriate for different ages of children, or cared much for children at all.  Her so-called "adopted grandson" who was her heir she did not raise, and met for the first time at 14. 

 

A LIW biography that I enjoyed very much is Becoming Laura Ingalls Wilder.  I think it is very balanced - it talks about Rose's contributions to her mother's development as a writer, but shows how Laura herself developed into an author in her own right.  I think the other book I read was A Little House Sampler, which has writings of both Laura and Rose, so you can compare the writing styles side-by-side.

 

[kubiac]

I'm in the camp of Laura writing out a draft memoir in each case, but Rose being the primary "novelizer" refining the language and the POV and the chapter breaks and such.

 

Another topic on the historiography of the books is that the land claim that Pa made in LHOTP was pretty darn shady. There's an article called Little Squatter on the Osage Diminished Reserve that really changed my perspective on the Ingalls family and the books overall. Among many other things, the Oak Soldier that she describes was around 30 or so years earlier and was misnamed at the very least.

[Luckymama]

I'm in the camp of Laura writing out a draft memoir in each case, but Rose being the primary "novelizer" refining the language and the POV and the chapter breaks and such.

 

Another topic on the historiography of the books is that the land claim that Pa made in LHOTP was pretty darn shady. There's an article called Little Squatter on the Osage Diminished Reserve that really changed my perspective on the Ingalls family and the books overall. Among many other things, the Oak Soldier that she describes was around 30 or so years earlier and was misnamed at the very least.

Thanks---that was really interesting.

[Alicia64]

Thanks---that was really interesting.

 

The Little Squatter -- hilarious title! I felt I could read between the lines when I read the book that Pa had done something "iffy" when he was on Osage land.

 

I'll open my mouth again and say that all through reading the series twice dh would pipe up, "Pa was a nut." He means that Pa put his family in many precarious and downright dangerous situations. Carrie and Graces' health never full recovered from the Long Winter. Nobody had kids except Laura having Rose and the baby who died.

 

Don't get me wrong: I love Little House and the capturing of that now extinct way of life but, yeah, Pa's lust to be so isolated from the world wasn't in the family's best interest.

 

Alley

[SwallowTail]

Momma2three, how do you know that Rose and Laura had a poor relationship?  I am so curious to learn more about Laura and her family. I have read all the books, and read all but the last to my dd.  Reading through them as an adult is definitely different, and I often found myself sobbing inside for the tragedy of Laura's life.  To hear that she and Almanzo didn't really get along possibly, and then that her only child and she also didn't get along breaks my heart a little more.  But, I would love to know more details.  Her life was fascinating.

[momma2three]

I've read a bunch of books and articles about the Ingalls/Wilders/Lane, and I think it's just brought up in all of them.  Rose thought that Laura was irresponsible and cold, and resented the poverty that she'd been brought up in.  I think she felt that she had some health and dental problems that were a result of that poverty.

[DianeW88]

Momma2three, how do you know that Rose and Laura had a poor relationship? I am so curious to learn mroe about Laura and her family. I have read all the books, and read all but the last to my dd. Reading through them as an adult is definitely diffeerent, and I often found myself sobbing inside for the tragedy of Laura's life. To hear that she and Almanzo didn't really get along possibly, and then that her only child and she also didn't get along breaks my heart a little more. But, I would love to know more details. Her life was fascinating.

Read a few biographies on Laura. She and Rose did not get along very well at all. But I do think Rose had her own issues as well. Rose felt Laura was very cold...much like Caroline...and as an adult, she would go long stretches of time without seeing her parents. It was clear that Rose did feel a sense of obligation to her parents, and she often gave them money, and made improvements to Rocky Ridge Farm. Almanzo never really completely recovered from the stroke he had early in his marriage, and Rose did her best to help both her parents deal with the obstacles of life. Which I feel includes editing (re-writing) her mother's books for publication. In some of Rose's personal correspondence to her friends, she mentions having to fix a lot of problems with her mother's manuscripts as a reason for not being able to take a trip abroad. Laura would send Rose each chapter as she finished it, and Rose would turn her mother's reminiscing into a commercial product.

[Miss Cornelia Snook]

Rose definitely had issues. But her parents' generation, and preceding ones, were not the type to complain about things. They just dealt with stuff. Rose bugs me but I have compassion for her struggles and depression. I also think there was a warmth in the LH books that was missing from Rose's books, and I've read many.

[momma2three]

I think it's also worth noting that Rose was a professional ghost writer, and a very successful one at that... it was her job to change voice for her clients.  So I wouldn't necessarily say that the fact that the Little House books are in a different voice from her novels means that she didn't have, at the very least, a heavy hand.

[Pod's mum]

Great thread. Thanks OP for original question and others for the informative answers and links given.

[Matryoshka]

Read a few biographies on Laura. She and Rose did not get along very well at all. But I do think Rose had her own issues as well. Rose felt Laura was very cold...much like Caroline...and as an adult, she would go long stretches of time without seeing her parents.

 

Rose I think was a colder person than Laura.  I'll agree with a PP that there is a warmth in Laura's books that is very much absent in Rose's work.  I think that speaks volumes right there.

 

[Rachel]

Now I have a lot more reading to do, my library has biographies by a couple different authors on Laura.  

[Harriet Vane]

As an editor, I have to say that I don't have any issues with the professional relationship between Rose and her mother. Editors coach writers to write more, to polish, to amend, to cut where appropriate. Editors also fix the writers' errors while trying to preserve the writer's voice. Editors do have a heavy hand on the finished product. Having Rose provide that pruning, coaching, and correcting just makes it easier on the publishing company in the end. Personally, I do this sort of thing with my authors, students, and friends all the time.

[DianeW88]

Rose I think was a colder person than Laura.  I'll agree with a PP that there is a warmth in Laura's books that is very much absent in Rose's work.  I think that speaks volumes right there.

 

 

Personally, I think Rose was bipolar.  That's just my impression from reading a few biographies on her life, not my official medical opinion.  And I don't think Rose wrote the Little House books, per se.  She was just a heavy handed editor.  Which doesn't bother me in the least.  It's a collaborative family story.  I think that's great.

[FaithManor]

Also, Rose did have a child while she was married to Gillette. However, it was a very problematic pregnancy that ended with the child being born late in the second trimester or early in the third stillborn, and Rose did not fair well with the delivery. She nearly died and several days later, a hysterectomy was done to save her life. She was in her 20's and if they took her ovaries, would have experienced a very sudden hormonal shift. She and Gillette had a very rocky marriage that ended in divorce, and Rose did go home for a while.

 

As for college for Mary, it was essentially a life skills and trade school boarding facility for the blind. She did not not get a degree and at times, there was not enough money to go back. While her tuition was government funded, her travel expenses, clothing, and books were absolutely paid for by the family so I do believe Laura when she says she contributed to the family finances to make that happen. Mary attended off and on over a period of eight years.

 

What I never got, and I know this sounds harsh but try to think of it from the perspective of a family with very limited financial resources and the fact that no matter what level of training Mary was given, she would never be employable, was why all of the money for the gorgeous clothes, the train tickets, the books, etc. was spent on Mary. This was a family that was starving to death but apologizing to Mary that they might have to spend "her college money". This was a family that could have used the funds to prove up the farm and make the situation better for all of them. I just never go it. This was the 1800's...there weren't any opportunities for Mary, and she was going to have to be taken care of by Pa/Ma and later a sister for her entire life. Why not use the money to make the financial future of the people taking care of her more secure? If Laura's description of the clothing that Ma made for Mary is accurate, Ma SERIOUSLY made much nicer dresses for Mary than she ever did or Laura. The favoritism seemed strong, and while it is obviously Laura's perspective, and we don't know Ma's side, since it was largely inappropriate in that time to even hint at disparaging a parent, I have to think that it must have been even worse if it was hinted at in the books.

 

But, then, I never got Pa either. His family was starving, and he had a heifer and a calf. Eat the dang calf. Okay, yeah...it sets you back one year getting started on milking year round or breeding cattle. SO WHAT! If someone in your family dies from malnutrition, are you really going to be thrilled about the death of a family member? But, maybe he didn't care. It was, after all, a patriarchial society and his only son lived less than one year. Maybe losing a female wasn't that big of a deal! I don't know. It just kind of burned me - beef out back your hauling hay for - massive weight loss as described by the Wilder boys when he came to get the seed wheat, Carrie getting MEGA thin and showing signs of serious malnutrition, Grace only just a toddler/pre-schooler....I have a hard time understanding him.

 

The books are a neat glimpse into the trials and tribulations families seeking to move west, find greener pastures, make a better life, faced in that time period. I think they are great for that. I just have a problem on a more philosophical level understanding the decision making process of the adults involved. But then, I'm willing to admit that just like any historical read, there is danger in imposing the biases of your modern/post-modern generation on those who lived when the values, customs, culture, and social pressures were very different.

 

Oh, and there was some hint from those that knew Gillette that the baby that he and Rose lost was a boy. If it was, that might lead one to wonder about genetic diseases passed from mother to son through Caroline's line.

[Trish]

This has been a fascinating thread. So much I never knew!

[itsheresomewhere]

I always wondered why when pa went back for hay, he didn't bring some of the food they put away for winter. They didn't bring it all with them when they moved into town.

[DianeW88]

I think there was definitely a genetic problem that caused the early death of male children in that family.  Caroline, Laura, and Rose all lost male children.  There are a myriad of genetic issues that could cause that, and I'm not going to speculate as to which one it might be without any concrete knowledge of their health history.  But really....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it.

 

Also, Grace and Carrie were unable to bear children due to complications from malnutrition.  Carrie and Grace both suffered from "respiratory issues", and Carrie, Grace, and Laura all developed diabetes which ultimately took their lives.

 

I think Carrie was the most affected by the long winter.  She never really was healthy again after that, and it's evident in all of her photos from that point on.  The whole situation was just terribly sad.  But of course, looking back on it from our modern day, it's easy to pass judgement and cast aspersions. I have to bite my tongue to not say what I really thought of the whole mess Charles Ingalls created for his family.

[Ausmumof3]

A half-starved calf wouldn't feed the family for long anyway... Though I feel the same way about Almanzo hiding the seed-wheat I guess... This has been so interesting to read.

 

I also often think about that lady that Laura boarded with while she was at school with the new baby. She was so critical of her! And the woman had a new baby that cried constantly, no family and poverty, then she had a 16 yo girl come into her house to live! A recipe for ppd if ever there was one.

[Guest]

I think that Jack actually died earlier but Laura didn't want to include it in the earlier books because she meant them for a younger audience. 

 

Not according to this:

 

http://alainamabaso.com/2013/07/10/pa-sold-jack-with-the-ponies-and-other-laura-ingalls-revelations-an-interview-with-wilder-biographer-pamela-smith-hill/

[FaithManor]

I always wondered why when pa went back for hay, he didn't bring some of the food they put away for winter. They didn't bring it all with them when they moved into town.

Actually, the book alludes to the fact that they did eat everything. It had been their first year gardening on newly turned over sod so the harvest was very tiny. There were to 40-50 lb. bags of dried beans, a few quarts of tomatoes that ma "put up", and some things for the root cellar. They were eating on those things when the first blizzard hit while they were living in the claim shanty. Ma made bean soup and later baked beans. The book even mentioned that Laura was worried because she knew that it was a very, very tiny harvest that would not last very long.

 

So, going into winter, they were absolutely dependent on the purchased groceries.

[FaithManor]

 

I think Carrie was the most affected by the long winter.  She never really was healthy again after that, and it's evident in all of her photos from that point on.  The whole situation was just terribly sad.  But of course, looking back on it from our modern day, it's easy to pass judgement and cast aspersions. I have to bite my tongue to not say what I really thought of the whole mess Charles Ingalls created for his family.

I agree. It's easy to interpret decisions from our modern/post modern mindset. I try hard not to do so. But, like you, it doesn't change my opinion of Pa. When they stayed in the Surveyor's House, I was stumped. This guy would have had a good reference from working for the railroad, he clearly knew his accounting, had management skills, was an excellent builder, and those towns along the railway in Iowa were growing rapidly. He "talked" about going back and getting a job, something I do believe he could have done...a good job, regular pay. I think he was selfish...determined to be his own man, not have a boss if he could possibly help it, do everything his own way.

 

Maybe a couple of years into the marriage, Caroline realized she married someone that would not have her or her future children's best interests at heart and that caused bitterness. They were married nearly five years before Mary came along, very unusual in that day, so one does wonder. Laura makes it out like they were happily married, but I think that may have been rose colored glasses.

 

I have a hard time understanding either parent in these books.

 

Oh, and in one of Ralph Moody's books...the second one in which Emma is struggling to provide for her family after her husband dies, she just suddenly has a baby. No joke...even her 13 year old daughter did not know she was pregnant. Talk about a taboo subject to discuss! The kids were absolutely shocked. It was one rather "conventional" society there that you didn't even tell your own kids your pregnant and they went around just believing you were getting fat or had bad corsets!

[LostSurprise]

Interesting, Faith. I always accepted that Mary got nice things because everyone knew that Mary would not be going anywhere otherwise. She wouldn't get married. She wouldn't have children. She wouldn't travel. She would be dependent her entire life, sitting in a single room. The school in another state and clothing were instead of those things (and I've always thought the clothing was a little piece of Ma's vanity...she was always well dressed and no daughter of her's would live among strangers looking like pauper). 

 

I think for harder-living generations it was more difficult to know when enough was enough. So much of daily life was a struggle. When you struggle on a daily basis you get used to struggling. It becomes a part of your life because if you ever let go everything falls apart.  It's actually hard to decide to quit or even change courses. Sometimes it's hard to even evaluate other choices. Evaluating means looking at the idea of NOT making it to the other side. 

 

I think that's part of why that woman at her first teaching/boarding freaked Laura out so much. She was letting go. That's how people go crazy. That's how tragedy and death happens. Lots of tragedy in death on the move westward. Even relatively comfortable places (like Laura sitting the claim with her seamstress boss) can push someone over the edge with the isolation. 

[momma2three]

Rose I think was a colder person than Laura.  I'll agree with a PP that there is a warmth in Laura's books that is very much absent in Rose's work.  I think that speaks volumes right there.

 

 

Laura was not known for being a particularly warm person, I believe.  Rose certainly thought that she was cold, bitter, illogical, and very mean.

 

For people who want to read more about Laura and Rose, here's a pretty good article based on a few books that came out at around the same time: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2009/08/10/090810crat_atlarge_thurman

 

And here's a blog post about that article: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/ask/2009/08/questions-for-thurman.html