qustion about "On the Shores of Silver Lake" by Laura Ingalls

[Χά�ων]

So many links to follow I will be busy for days!

[FaithManor]

"Pioneer Girl" published many years posthumous, was Laura's actual autobiography. In it, you will find information that veers quite profoundly from the book. One tidbit is about Jack. When Laura and Rose wrote the Little House series, since it was intended as historical fiction loosely based on real life experiences and definitely for young children, there was a lot of concern about writing about death, profound disappointment, etc. This was especially true of the early books. Laura was adamant in her letters to Rose that she didn't want the early books to be "too dark". So the truth about Jack was not told.

 

Here is the truth:

 

When Pa sold the ponies, he sold Jack with them.

 

Jack never went back to Pepin with them when they left Osage territory. Pa was a "claim jumper", ie. he crossed the line into Osage territory based on rumors that the government was going to force the Osage tribe off their land and open it for settlement. He knew land would go fast and decided to "jump" the line in order to have his pick of the land. Carrie was born on August 3, and having heard that now Washington was delaying any action on forcing the Osage out and having recently been to Independence to get mail - ie. to receive a payment from the man he sold the farm to in Pepin...land contract - and discovered that the farmer was defaulting on the land contract and had abandoned the farm thus no more money would be coming for him to use to buy necessary items both for food and improving the farm, they decided to leave as soon as Ma could travel. Carrie was maybe only one month old when they packed up and went back to Pepin. No Jack! It's very sad to think about. That means the stories of Jack having to be chained up so he wouldn't bite someone were completely made up, and of course he was never with them at Plum Creek.

 

Pioneer Girl gives a much more accurate portrayal of the lives of the Ingalls Family than the Little House Books did.

[fairfarmhand]

I'm loving this thread.

[itsheresomewhere]

Actually, the book alludes to the fact that they did eat everything. It had been their first year gardening on newly turned over sod so the harvest was very tiny. There were to 40-50 lb. bags of dried beans, a few quarts of tomatoes that ma "put up", and some things for the root cellar. They were eating on those things when the first blizzard hit while they were living in the claim shanty. Ma made bean soup and later baked beans. The book even mentioned that Laura was worried because she knew that it was a very, very tiny harvest that would not last very long.

 

So, going into winter, they were absolutely dependent on the purchased groceries.

 

It has been awhile since I read the book but I could swear it said something about how they couldn't take it all.   

[momto10blessings]

"Pioneer Girl" published many years posthumous, was Laura's actual autobiography. In it, you will find information that veers quite profoundly from the book. One tidbit is about Jack. When Laura and Rose wrote the Little House series, since it was intended as historical fiction loosely based on real life experiences and definitely for young children, there was a lot of concern about writing about death, profound disappointment, etc. This was especially true of the early books. Laura was adamant in her letters to Rose that she didn't want the early books to be "too dark". So the truth about Jack was not told.

 

Here is the truth:

 

When Pa sold the ponies, he sold Jack with them.

 

Jack never went back to Pepin with them when they left Osage territory. Pa was a "claim jumper", ie. he crossed the line into Osage territory based on rumors that the government was going to force the Osage tribe off their land and open it for settlement. He knew land would go fast and decided to "jump" the line in order to have his pick of the land. Carrie was born on August 3, and having heard that now Washington was delaying any action on forcing the Osage out and having recently been to Independence to get mail - ie. to receive a payment from the man he sold the farm to in Pepin...land contract - and discovered that the farmer was defaulting on the land contract and had abandoned the farm thus no more money would be coming for him to use to buy necessary items both for food and improving the farm, they decided to leave as soon as Ma could travel. Carrie was maybe only one month old when they packed up and went back to Pepin. No Jack! It's very sad to think about. That means the stories of Jack having to be chained up so he wouldn't bite someone were completely made up, and of course he was never with them at Plum Creek.

 

Pioneer Girl gives a much more accurate portrayal of the lives of the Ingalls Family than the Little House Books did.

This is a picture book, correct?

[FaithManor]

This is a picture book, correct?

You know what? It's been so many years, I'll have to get back to you on that. I might be off on the title. I did a bunch of research a few years back and my recollection may be off. There were books, letters, documents....I'll bet it's all mushing up together, LOL! So, I'll have to look around when I have a chance and see if I can find the title that I'm actually referring to...sorry about that!!!

 

Faith

[DianeW88]

Laura was not known for being a particularly warm person, I believe.  Rose certainly thought that she was cold, bitter, illogical, and very mean.

 

For people who want to read more about Laura and Rose, here's a pretty good article based on a few books that came out at around the same time: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2009/08/10/090810crat_atlarge_thurman

 

And here's a blog post about that article: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/ask/2009/08/questions-for-thurman.html

 

Great articles!!  They hit all the main points and show people the real Ingalls family, not the idealized book version.

 

Edited to say that I loved these quotes:

 

“The First Four Years suggests Laura could not write anywhere near as well on her own as she did with Rose. And, in fact, I think they needed each other, the odd chemistry of their closeness and distance and past, to transcend the limitations they both had."

 

"That impulse to romanticize, which is part of the success of the series, probably comes from Rose. Laura herself did not have it, as The First Four Years suggests."

 

I think the books worked because they were a collaboration.  Each supplied something the other could not, and the synergy resulted in a series that has withstood the test of time.  I'm so glad that, in spite of their personal difficulties with each other, they were able to work together and create a body of work that has enriched the lives of many generations of children.  What a great partnership!

[KungFuPanda]

Fess up. Who else owns the Little House cookbook? http://www.amazon.com/The-Little-House-Cookbook-Frontier/dp/0064460908 I don't think I've made anything from it, but I like knowing it's there.

 

I want to thank all of the contributors to this thread for providing me with reading material during my own Long Winter. (The plows aren't here yet.) Did anyone mention The Wilder Life? http://www.amazon.com/The-Wilder-Life-Adventures-Prairie/dp/1594485682 It's no work of art, and there is some language, but a woman actually follows her little house bunny trail and takes field trips to most of the sites. She even bought a churn and set a whole day aside to make butter. That was funny.

[itsheresomewhere]

Fess up. Who else owns the Little House cookbook? http://www.amazon.com/The-Little-House-Cookbook-Frontier/dp/0064460908 I don't think I've made anything from it, but I like knowing it's there.

 

I want to thank all of the contributors to this thread for providing me with reading material during my own Long Winter. (The plows aren't here yet.) Did anyone mention The Wilder Life? http://www.amazon.com/The-Wilder-Life-Adventures-Prairie/dp/1594485682 It's no work of art, and there is some language, but a woman actually follows her little house bunny trail and takes field trips to most of the sites. She even bought a churn and set a whole day aside to make butter. That was funny.

 

I own several of the cookbooks.  

 

I thought the Wilder Life was great.  

[DianeW88]

Fess up. Who else owns the Little House cookbook? http://www.amazon.com/The-Little-House-Cookbook-Frontier/dp/0064460908 I don't think I've made anything from it, but I like knowing it's there.

 

 

 

If you want to make recipes from Laura's personal cookbook, this is the book you need:  http://www.amazon.com/Laura-Ingalls-Wilder-Country-Cookbook/dp/0064461963/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390405195&sr=8-1&keywords=Laura+Ingalls+wilder+country+cookbook  I've tried many of them, and they're delicious.  Rose's chicken pot pie is well worth the trouble!

[Luckymama]

Fess up. Who else owns the Little House cookbook? http://www.amazon.com/The-Little-House-Cookbook-Frontier/dp/0064460908 I don't think I've made anything from it, but I like knowing it's there.

 

I want to thank all of the contributors to this thread for providing me with reading material during my own Long Winter. (The plows aren't here yet.) Did anyone mention The Wilder Life? http://www.amazon.com/The-Wilder-Life-Adventures-Prairie/dp/1594485682 It's no work of art, and there is some language, but a woman actually follows her little house bunny trail and takes field trips to most of the sites. She even bought a churn and set a whole day aside to make butter. That was funny.

Just requested The Wilder Life---thanks! I own The Little House Cookbook, too.

[KungFuPanda]

If you want to make recipes from Laura's personal cookbook, this is the book you need:  http://www.amazon.com/Laura-Ingalls-Wilder-Country-Cookbook/dp/0064461963/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390405195&sr=8-1&keywords=Laura+Ingalls+wilder+country+cookbook  I've tried many of them, and they're delicious.  Rose's chicken pot pie is well worth the trouble!

Ouch! That's quite a price tag. :-(

[Rachel TX]

I just finished reading On the Shores of Silver Lake and The Long Winter, and there is such a difference in tone and age-level from the earlier books. I actually liked that about them. This thread is so interesting that they are not as autobiographical as I assumed, though I always did wonder how Laura could remember so much detail about her childhood.

 

I think it's weird Laura decided that Almanzo lying about his age to get a claim in The Long Winter would be more appropriate than their true age difference. And in On the Shores of Silver Lake, Aunt Docia has to leave early one morning so no one will see her drive off with three wagons full of store goods from the company. "But it's not really stealing, Caroline," Pa said.

[Rachel]

There's a cookbook?

 

I found 3 children's books, "I Remember Laura" by people who knew her or her family, and a collection of her writings at my library this morning. I also put two more biographies on hold (did one of you check them out on me this morning because they were available last night?)

 

I grew up about 50 miles from De Smet. Reading through these books as an adult has really given me a new perspective on homesteading.

[klmama]

The children's stories are nice, but as an adult I really enjoyed reading the book of newspaper articles she wrote from Rocky Ridge.  The one on how to move a spring was fascinating.

 

 

[Trish]

After reading Rose's wiki biography, it seems she was quite accomplished in her own right!

 

She wrote for the San Francisco Bulletin, Harper's, Saturday Evening Post, Good Housekeeping, Sunset, and Ladies' Home Journal. Several of her short stories were nominated for an O. Henry Prize. She wrote novels that became "top sellers" -- just because they are not permanently part of the literary landscape doesn't mean that wasn't a huge accomplishment for the time. She hobnobbed with very famous people and wrote a biography of Herbert Hoover. She was one of the "highest paid female writers in America" in the twenties. She did some work as a war correspondent.

 

My goodness!

[itsheresomewhere]

There's a cookbook?

 

I found 3 children's books, "I Remember Laura" by people who knew her or her family, and a collection of her writings at my library this morning. I also put two more biographies on hold (did one of you check them out on me this morning because they were available last night?)

 

I grew up about 50 miles from De Smet. Reading through these books as an adult has really given me a new perspective on homesteading.

 

There are a few cookbooks.  The Little House Cookbook, The Laura Ingalls Wilder Country Cookbook, My Little House Cookbook, and Laura Ingalls Wilder Little Hotel Cookbook.

 

 

I like to collect cookbooks.  LOL.

[Matryoshka]

Great articles!!  They hit all the main points and show people the real Ingalls family, not the idealized book version.

 

Edited to say that I loved these quotes:

 

“The First Four Years suggests Laura could not write anywhere near as well on her own as she did with Rose. And, in fact, I think they needed each other, the odd chemistry of their closeness and distance and past, to transcend the limitations they both had."

 

 

The First Four Years was not edited by anyone.  Laura never wanted it published; it was not intended for an audience, and I don't believe she even showed it to Rose. I don't think it's any kind of fair comparison to compare a first rough draft of a personal nature to a finished work for a public audience and compare writing styles to form any conclusion about how an outside editor was the sole result of the differences.  I do think the collaboration of mother and daughter made the books better, but I don't think it's in any way fair to compare something written in a notebook in pencil to a finished draft. 

 

I think I might be interested in reading the book someone else posed t a link to "LIW: A Writer's Life" which is about her development as a writer and said it also looks closely at the extensive correspondence between Laura and Rose through the editing process (which apparently was largely overlooked by other biographers).

[Guest]

This is a picture book, correct?

 

No. It has not been released to the general public yet:

 

http://pioneergirlproject.org/2013/08/26/a-new-time-frame-for-pioneer-girl/

 

but I believe there was a .pdf floating around the internet for awhile that was later pulled, perhaps for copyright reasons.

 

It's been awhile since I've been on the frontiergirl forums so please forgive me if my memory is a bit hazy. I'm not an expert, just a lifelong fan.

[Mothersweets]

Not according to this:

 

http://alainamabaso.com/2013/07/10/pa-sold-jack-with-the-ponies-and-other-laura-ingalls-revelations-an-interview-with-wilder-biographer-pamela-smith-hill/

 

I never knew this about Jack! sob :( 

 

but on the bright side, thanks for posting the link - I can't wait for Pioneer Girl to be published.

[PeachyDoodle]

No. It has not been released to the general public yet:

 

http://pioneergirlproject.org/2013/08/26/a-new-time-frame-for-pioneer-girl/

 

but I believe there was a .pdf floating around the internet for awhile that was later pulled, perhaps for copyright reasons.

 

It's been awhile since I've been on the frontiergirl forums so please forgive me if my memory is a bit hazy. I'm not an expert, just a lifelong fan.

 

Thanks... I've been on the waiting list for Pioneer Girl for ages and I thought I'd missed out!

 

[LucyStoner]

I think Almanzo did lie for his first land claim, just years before they were together. So that tidbit of his life is included as part of the book when it was really years before she knew him. His birthday is listed on a state census as 3 years younger than he later claimed as an adult. He was settled onto his claim for years before he married and things were actually going pretty well for him until they got sick and he was physically limited. Then the fire.

[DianeW88]

I think we scared off the OP. She's heard more about "Little House" than she probably ever wanted to know. :D

[Mothersweets]

Fess up. Who else owns the Little House cookbook? http://www.amazon.com/The-Little-House-Cookbook-Frontier/dp/0064460908 I don't think I've made anything from it, but I like knowing it's there.

 

I want to thank all of the contributors to this thread for providing me with reading material during my own Long Winter. (The plows aren't here yet.) Did anyone mention The Wilder Life? http://www.amazon.com/The-Wilder-Life-Adventures-Prairie/dp/1594485682 It's no work of art, and there is some language, but a woman actually follows her little house bunny trail and takes field trips to most of the sites. She even bought a churn and set a whole day aside to make butter. That was funny.

 

I own it! I think we tried the doughnut recipe.

 

And The Wilder Life was a lot of fun. It's a great read for us crazy LIW fans. :)

[UmMusa]

I'm loving this thread.

[Firefly]

My sister is a huge Little House nerd and told me about Jack many years ago.  I was crushed. :(

 

I have the Little House Cookbook too!  We've tried several of the recipes but my favorite is the pumpkin pie.  One year my sister and I did a "Little House Thanksgiving" with dishes mostly from the book. It was awesome.

 

Great thread!

[Xuzi]

I checked out The Ghost in the Little House from the library today. Can't wait to get started on it! :)

[KungFuPanda]

Is anyone else bitter that you can't get some of the books in this thread electronically?

[Mrs Mungo]

Is anyone else bitter that you can't get some of the books in this thread electronically?

 

Amazon Prime, baby. ;)

[UmMusa]

I'm sad to read that she wasn't a warm mother. Considering how playful and free spirited she was portrayed in the books I'd have thought she'd be a loving mom.

[Amira]

Is anyone else bitter that you can't get some of the books in this thread electronically?

I am!

[KungFuPanda]

Amazon Prime, baby. ;)

I looked. Some of these titles just don't have an electronic version.

[Sara R]

While you await your books, be sure to check out HalfPintIngalls (actually the author of The Wilder Life pretending to be Laura Ingalls) on Twitter: http://twitter.com/HalfPintIngalls.

[Scrub Jay]

Fess up. Who else owns the Little House cookbook? http://www.amazon.com/The-Little-House-Cookbook-Frontier/dp/0064460908 I don't think I've made anything from it, but I like knowing it's there.

 

 

Ha!  That is totally me.

 

[curlgirl]

The Little Squatter -- hilarious title! I felt I could read between the lines when I read the book that Pa had done something "iffy" when he was on Osage land.

 

I'll open my mouth again and say that all through reading the series twice dh would pipe up, "Pa was a nut." He means that Pa put his family in many precarious and downright dangerous situations. Carrie and Graces' health never full recovered from the Long Winter. Nobody had kids except Laura having Rose and the baby who died.

 

Don't get me wrong: I love Little House and the capturing of that now extinct way of life but, yeah, Pa's lust to be so isolated from the world wasn't in the family's best interest.

 

Alley

 

I always wondered if Laura and Almanzo never had anymore children because if I remember right they were both sick with fevers?? I can't find my book to verify feel free to correct. Anyway then Almanzo had his stroke and I don't think ever really recovered. So anyway I always thought that that illness was the reason they never had anymore.

 

I never realized that all three generations lost baby boys.  That is so very sad for them.

[Moxie]

I always wondered if Laura and Almanzo never had anymore children because if I remember right they were both sick with fevers?? I can't find my book to verify feel free to correct. Anyway then Almanzo had his stroke and I don't think ever really recovered. So anyway I always thought that that illness was the reason they never had anymore.

 

I never realized that all three generations lost baby boys. That is so very sad for them.

We visited the house in Missouri last summer. The seperate beds probably didn't aid in the conception of children.

[curlgirl]

We visited the house in Missouri last summer. The seperate beds probably didn't aid in the conception of children.

I had no idea that that was the case but I think you probably have an excellent point there! :) LOL

 

edited because I cannot proofread.....

[freesia]

I'm sad to read that she wasn't a warm mother. Considering how playful and free spirited she was portrayed in the books I'd have thought she'd be a loving mom.

You know, I felt that way,too. But, then I thought of my SIL. She comes from a very functional, loving family. However, she claims her father was abusive because he didn't support her. What she "means" though is that, when she made choices he didn't agree with morally, he didn't support her verbally. He still spoke to her, initiated contact, told her he loved her, helped her financially, let her and her husband stay in his home when they needed to. Her problem is that she felt like, if he loved her, he would never, ever express any disapproval of anything she did.

 

Rose made decisions about lifestyle that were very counter to what Laura believed. I can easily see how she might consider Laura's nonacceptance as coldness. But that doesn't mean that the sum total of Laura's mothering *was* cold.

[LucyStoner]

I always wondered if Laura and Almanzo never had anymore children because if I remember right they were both sick with fevers?? I can't find my book to verify feel free to correct. Anyway then Almanzo had his stroke and I don't think ever really recovered. So anyway I always thought that that illness was the reason they never had anymore.

 

I never realized that all three generations lost baby boys.  That is so very sad for them.

 

I think that she was unable to have more children after her second pregnancy due to complications separate from the diphtheria. She was also a small woman (less than 5 feet tall) and was greatly undernourished during parts of her childhood.  That is going to curb fertility.  One of her sisters didn't marry until her 40s (she never had kids) and the other married young but never had children either.  Fertility seems to have been an ongoing issue in the family.  Caroline had more pregnancies, but Caroline never went hungry as a child that we know of. 

 

Rose said in an article in the Ladies Home Journal "My life has been arid and sterile at the core because I have been a human being rather than a woman, a mother".  

 

[Mrs Mungo]

I looked. Some of these titles just don't have an electronic version.

I meant, in lieu of ebooks, buying them on amazon prime could have them soon winging their way to your house. ;)

[Occasionally]

This "Little House Virtual Field Trip" popped up on my Facebook feed if anyone is interested.

[KungFuPanda]

I meant, in lieu of ebooks, buying them on amazon prime could have them soon winging their way to your house. ;)

I was snowed in and wanted instant gratification. I can just reserve it at the library now.

[Mrs Mungo]

I was snowed in and wanted instant gratification. I can just reserve it at the library now.

 

Ah, it is sad when I can't get the book I want *rightnow*! 

[Desert Strawberry]

I got the Little House Cookbook in DeSmet when I was 15. I learned to cook with it. I still make Caroline 's gravy (minus the salt pork), and her pie crust. I frequently whipped up vinegar pies. Mmm. I tried Mrs. Wilder's doughnuts, but I burned them :( I need to try them again.

[Ripley]

I have never had any desire to read this series - not as a child, not as a mother (to a child who wanted to read them).

 

But now I'm hooked on all of the extra information this thread has offered. It's all looking way more appealing now :) I'm just trying to decide which order to tackle it in: kids' series followed by adult literature, or adult literature followed by kids' series! LOL

[Desert Strawberry]

I have never had any desire to read this series - not as a child, not as a mother (to a child who wanted to read them).

 

But now I'm hooked on all of the extra information this thread has offered. It's all looking way more appealing now :) I'm just trying to decide which order to tackle it in: kids' series followed by adult literature, or adult literature followed by kids' series! LOL

Kids'series first, then adult 's/primary sources.  Most of the adult stuff will assume knowledge of the kids series. It's aimed at filling in the blanks and challenging the discrepancies. 

 IMO the series is most enjoyable if you take it at romanticized face value, then fill in the juicy tidbits later.

[Guest]

I have never had any desire to read this series - not as a child, not as a mother (to a child who wanted to read them).

 

But now I'm hooked on all of the extra information this thread has offered. It's all looking way more appealing now :) I'm just trying to decide which order to tackle it in: kids' series followed by adult literature, or adult literature followed by kids' series! LOL

 

I don't know how old your kids are, but these:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_21?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=my+first+little+house+books&sprefix=My+First+Little+House%2Caps%2C314&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Amy+first+little+house+books

 

are very true to the originals but cleaned up for modern youngsters. I'd start with them for under fives. I believe the original Little House books are recommended for grades 3 and up now.

[Miss Cornelia Snook]

I think I likely won't be sleeping in the same bed as my husband when he is 92 years old, especially if we have arthritis and all sorts of other goodies that come with old age.

[FaithManor]

One of the more serious side effects for a person who survives diphtheria is infertility. I was just on a website looking that up. My grandmother had a brother that survived diphtheria; he and his wife never had children, and he ALWAYS assumed it was her problem and was vocal about it. Well, turns out it was him!

 

Since both Laura and Almanzo had it, that's kind of a double whammie in the baby department. Regardless of malnutrition in her childhood, their future fertility would have been about nil afterward and from what I could read, a stroke/paralysis from the infection would have made him, uhm...fairly unable to well, be "happy". if you get my drift.

 

Laura never really wanted to live the hard life of farming, and I wonder if between the pressures of bankrupting on the farm, doing both the housework and all of the hard chores in the barn and fields due to his disability, moving first to Florida to see if he did better in a tropical environment, then back to the farm, then to Missouri...I just wonder if she came to regret marrying him. Rose was a difficult, precocious child and with a disabled husband to care for, a baby that was lost, a farm she could hardly keep up with and a child that didn't take instruction very well, I would not be shocked if she didn't end up clinically depressed and possibly very angry - she was known for a bit of temper.

 

[KungFuPanda]

One of the more serious side effects for a person who survives diphtheria is infertility. I was just on a website looking that up. My grandmother had a brother that survived diphtheria; he and his wife never had children, and he ALWAYS assumed it was her problem and was vocal about it. Well, turns out it was him!

 

Since both Laura and Almanzo had it, that's kind of a double whammie in the baby department. Regardless of malnutrition in her childhood, their future fertility would have been about nil afterward and from what I could read, a stroke/paralysis from the infection would have made him, uhm...fairly unable to well, be "happy". if you get my drift.

 

Laura never really wanted to live the hard life of farming, and I wonder if between the pressures of bankrupting on the farm, doing both the housework and all of the hard chores in the barn and fields due to his disability, moving first to Florida to see if he did better in a tropical environment, then back to the farm, then to Missouri...I just wonder if she came to regret marrying him. Rose was a difficult, precocious child and with a disabled husband to care for, a baby that was lost, a farm she could hardly keep up with and a child that didn't take instruction very well, I would not be shocked if she didn't end up clinically depressed and possibly very angry - she was known for a bit of temper.

I wonder if she thought of it that way? She saw a lot of progress in her lifetime. I remember reading one scene where she and Almonzo were reading by the fire (or something like that) and were marveling at their level of leisure compared to their parents.