Do some think IEW could be "bad" for a child's writing skills?

[bnwhitaker]

I had never heard this before? I thought it was kind of known as a "good program".

I realize each program/curr probably has people on both sides of it, opinion wise.

But if some actually think IEW could be a bad move please tell me more? 

[OneStepAtATime]

I have heard that it can be too formulaic if you don't add in or move to something else further down the road, or at least approach it with some flexibility.  On the other hand, for some it was a fantastic program and easier to implement and extremely successful just using only IEW and the various manifestations of that program.  I have noticed that quite a few of the ones that seemed to find it easiest to implement and felt it covered everything very thoroughly used the support DVD's for both parent and student, and were more flexible in their approach, thinking outside the box for some implementation as they progressed.

 

We intend to use it starting in the Fall.  I do not yet know if we will then move to something else further down the road, but I guess we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

Best wishes.  Hopefully, someone else will respond with something more concrete.

[Laura Corin]

I did have a look at the programme many years ago.  My boys are the kind of children who absorb writing and style from their reading.  I ensured that they read good books when they were young, and I haven't had to work on their style too much.  For them, I think that something like IEW would have been too much and might have turned them off writing.

 

L

[mom2att]

I think that Laura has a good point.  I had heard about IEW but never really investigated it further with my daughter, because like Laura's boys she was the kind of kid who just . . . wrote.  She was an avid reader from a young age, and skills like spelling, grammar, and writing just sort of fell into place from that.

 

But I AM using IEW with my second born, and it is a great benefit to him.  Now that we are in the middle of it I can see that the criticisms of it being "too formulaic" for some kids are valid.  I like writing and do not find it a difficult process, and would really be over having to find a "triple" to use in every paragraph, or an "ly sentence opener" so many times if I were using it for myself (or for my daughter).  But for my son, who needs the kind of "okay now think of this kind of word" instruction that IEW provides, it is invaluable.  He has soared with it over the past two years, and I am hopeful it will give him the tools he needs to expand upon the IEW formulas and develop into a really great writer.  He's always had the ideas, but really struggled with getting them down on paper until he started with IEW.

 

As with so many curricula-related issues, YMMV.  It depends on the kid--for some it's great and a much-needed resource, for others, not at all necessary.

 

[Pawz4me]

Our experience with IEW was exactly as Barbie described above.  Oldest is a natural writer who picked up on style and other finer points of writing from what he read.  He needed little to no writing help beyond lots of exposure to good books.  For youngest IEW was amazing.  Writing did NOT come naturally to him, even though he read all the same books oldest did.  He usually had the basic idea of what he wanted to write in his head, but getting it on paper was a struggle.  IEW was like a key that unlocked the writing door in his brain.  We were very flexible in how we used it.  For example, as we advanced through the program I never required him to use all the sentence openers or different types of sentences within any one paragraph.  We used what he found helpful and pretty much disregarded the rest.  Breaking the writing process down like IEW does was exactly what he needed.

 

As far as the criticism -- Yes, I can see if you used the program very strictly it would result in formulaic writing.  But with a little flexibility I think that's easily dealt with.

[marbel]

My kids are not natural writers but they hated the IEW course they took (which was with a trained teacher, not with me).  We all found the writing too formulaic and it definitely turned them off.  Ugh, those exercises cramming every possible adjective or adverb into a paragraph!    Those checklists for sentence opening!  

 

The next year I had them take another writing class with a teacher who did not follow IEW.  They did much better. 

 

<shrug> We are definitely in the minority though.  Most people I know who use the program love it. 

[Garga]

I think that Laura has a good point. I had heard about IEW but never really investigated it further with my daughter, because like Laura's boys she was the kind of kid who just . . . wrote. She was an avid reader from a young age, and skills like spelling, grammar, and writing just sort of fell into place from that.

 

But I AM using IEW with my second born, and it is a great benefit to him. Now that we are in the middle of it I can see that the criticisms of it being "too formulaic" for some kids are valid. I like writing and do not find it a difficult process, and would really be over having to find a "triple" to use in every paragraph, or an "ly sentence opener" so many times if I were using it for myself (or for my daughter). But for my son, who needs the kind of "okay now think of this kind of word" instruction that IEW provides, it is invaluable. He has soared with it over the past two years, and I am hopeful it will give him the tools he needs to expand upon the IEW formulas and develop into a really great writer. He's always had the ideas, but really struggled with getting them down on paper until he started with IEW.

 

As with so many curricula-related issues, YMMV. It depends on the kid--for some it's great and a much-needed resource, for others, not at all necessary.

Yup. This.

 

If your child naturally writes, then using IEW will be overkill. Another program could teach the same sorts of things IEW teaches but without being so forceful about it.

 

IEW has the child read a selection. Then, they have the child outline the selection, using only 3 words on each line of the outline. They specify THREE words at the most. Then, the child re-writes the selection in their own words from their outline. Throughout the year they are taught how to add more and more to their re-write. Each final draft of the week is expected to have certain elements in it, more and more being added all year. For example, each and every paragraph MUST have a strong verb in it. The strong verb must be underlined and labeled. Each paragraph MUST have an adjective in it--underlined and labeled. Each paragraph MUST have a vocabulary word in it. Each paragraph has to have certain kinds of sentences (there is a list of the kinds of sentences--for example an -ly sentence, where the first word ends in -ly, like "Fortunately," "Carefully," "Conclusively," )

 

For everything that must be in the paragraph, they provide the child lists of words the child could use if they get stuck. There are lists of strong verbs, lists of quality adjectives, lists of -ly words.

 

For my boys who HATED writing, IEW has been perfect. My plan is to use the program for 2 solid years and then move to something more creative. IEW is very formulaic and we need that right now. It's been great for us.

 

BUT--to answer the original question--it could be bad for a kid who naturally writes. A kid who already has a writing flow and just needs to tweak it would hate this program and it could kill their desire to write. But for a child who stares at a blank sheet of paper and bursts into tears because she can't think of anything to write, IEW is awesome.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I have found it extremely valuable for both my girls.  Though they were good and creative writers prior to using the program, and absolutley, at first the checklists and openers and all that were tedious and annoying, they did get a great deal out of it.  It definitley improved their skills and made them more aware of what bad writing was. The "formula" works while it is being taught and the better writing begins to come naturally over time.  I have never found, that it made their own writing formulaic, rather, built on their own skills for them to become excellent writers.

[Another Lynn]

I did have a look at the programme many years ago.  My boys are the kind of children who absorb writing and style from their reading.  I ensured that they read good books when they were young, and I haven't had to work on their style too much.  For them, I think that something like IEW would have been too much and might have turned them off writing.

 

L

 

This also describes my oldest, except all through the logic stage I worried about how I would get him from really good narrations over to academic essays.  We tried IEW towards the end of one school year.  It didn't hurt him, but we didn't return to it after the summer break. 

 

My next two children learned to write from IEW rather than narrations.  It was/has been good for them.  The older of those two has moved on to LTOW (with CC's Challenge A), and I love how it's teaching him to think through issues for persuasive writing.  The younger of those two is still doing IEW.  I really want to make sure we get some practice writing without IEW's approach.  My 4th child will probably get IEW in a couple years.  I'm not in a hurry to introduce it to him next year (3rd grade).  I'd rather do some other kind of writing first.

 

Short answer - I don't think it's harmful.  I think some will respond to it better than others.  I think it's good to do other types of writing too.

 

[robsiew]

Like any curriculum "one size does not fit all"!  There are some that will love IEW, some that won't.  I think it depends on your confidence level in teaching writing and your child's confidence level/ability to write.  For parents who need a lot of handholding and don't feel like they have a process for teaching it is a God-send.  For children who have no idea what to do with a pencil when it touches the paper it's a God-send. The basic concepts are straightforward and easy to teach and implement.  The rubrics are straightforward allowing the parent to easily assess the writing and the child to know exactly what is expected of him/her.  The "mystery" is taken out of evaluating writing.

 

I can also see where the teacher needs to make some judgement calls.  Every paragraph, IMO does not need all the dress-ups suggested.  So, as my children learn the basics of solid writing, I can see moving away from requiring EVERYTHING in every paragraph.  But to begin with it stretches them to write using different types of words and different word patterns.  One needs to learn the basics/mechanics of writing before you can expect deviation and "creativity".

 

Children who naturally write well may or may not do well.  My best friend's 12 y/o is a natural writer, but is flourishing with IEW.  I've heard a lot of reports of other children not doing well.  Personally, my kids are not natural writers (well, I think a couple might be, but they have no confidence) so the program has been excellent for us.  I feel confident teaching... I know exactly how to progress and exactly what to teach.  My kids finally don't melt down when they have to write and although they would not admit it, aside from the actual physical writing process they are enjoying the process.  We have a lot of fun brainstorming suggestions of words and phrases together.  It can be our silliest and most fun time of the day (except for reading LOF!)  I give them all the help they need to try to make it enjoyable and not a drudgery.  I can tell they are actually LEARNING, not just going through the motions. 

 

My 12 y/o had a great writing success this past semester as he wrote a 9 paragraph essay on his Biblical worldview... guided through by IEW.  If we had not started using this method that 9 paragraph essay would have seemed impossible and I don't think he would have done 1/2 as well.  It would have been ME basically writing it for him with all the suggestions I'd have to give him.  With IEW I feel he had the tools to create it basically on his own with little help.  A huge confidence builder for him.

 

You'll have to decide for yourself where you and your children fit.  Personally, I think it's an excellent program and I'd recommend it highly.  If you have the means I'd say give it a try.  Remember, if there's some minor things that aren't working you can always adapt to meet your needs!  I think a lot of the time if mom goes with her gut and makes necessary changes to curriculum there is not a need to change curriculum... just how you're doing it.  :001_smile:

[Ellie]

In answer to your question, yes. I think it overemphasizes the use of adjectives and adverbs. I think it makes to much of a formula out of writing. I think it makes the writing process way too complicated.

[bethben]

I had ds#2 do IEW for 4 years.  It worked well enough and I do think it helped him to learn how to write a paragraph, craft a sentence, and use words he wouldn't otherwise use.  By the 4th year, I was only having him use some of the dress ups once in a 3 paragraph paper.  Then, he wrote something without any direction from Key Word Outlines or using dress ups.  I was impressed and realized for this particular child, IEW would hold him back.  I do think it gave him a foundation of how to write, but I also think it was good to stop when we did.  He has a writing class this year and is doing well.  I listened in on a class and one girl was reading her paper.  She was most likely a type -A follow the rules because I could sniff IEW dress ups a mile away.  She used ALL of them in EVERY paragraph.  Honestly, it was hard to listen to because it was so full of adverbs and adjectives.  Wow---

 

That all being said, I am using it for ds#3 to get him started on the path to writing.  It gives him a place to start and to stop and is helping him write.  My plan is to continue for 3 years with IEW and then also enroll him in an online writing class.  I think it can work to get kids used to writing and teaching them some foundational skills, but I'm not sure how it would work as a program to use throughout their whole school career.

 

Beth

[OneStepAtATime]

Not to jump the post, but for those who have used IEW, what about the other IEW programs, besides their primary one, like the literature programs and writing a novel, etc.? Do those encourage more outside the box thinking and creativity?

[Ellie]

I had never heard this before? I thought it was kind of known as a "good program".

 

It *is* a "good program." It has been very popular since it first came out 20 years ago or so. And because it's so popular, there isn't much point in giving it negative reviews. :-)

[ThisIsTheDay]

Agreeing with the others that it's all about "fit."  I have been a huge IEW fan for 11 years.  In early elementary years, my kids were using IEW to learn "key word" outlines and giving a speech based on their key words.  My dd, however, is a natural writer, and the more rigid writing "rules" stifled her.  She preferred Writing Strands--which I really hate, but it worked for her.  For my ds, on the other hand, while he does not fit the typical reluctant boy writer, IEW has been a great foundation to keep him focused on his topics, how to create paragraphs, etc.

 

Finding "good" homeschool curriculum is like anything else in your kids' lives.  Some things work for a lot of kids, but they don't for all.  It's easy to hear that a program is "good."  I always found negative reviews to give me more accurate information in determining how it may or may not fit *my* kid.  I also made an effort to not get stuck in the "if it works for one, it will work for all" mindset.  But I realize that can be much easier for some families than others, depending on circumstances (family size, time constraints, health issues, etc.).

 

 

[MFG]

In answer to your question, yes. I think it overemphasizes the use of adjectives and adverbs. I think it makes to much of a formula out of writing. I think it makes the writing process way too complicated.

This. Almost a sure fire way to clog up and weaken a piece of writing.

 

When we used IEW briefly a million years ago I found the key word outlines and selection rewrite useful. I found most of the 'dress ups' dreadful, especially if used as recommended to the point of overkill.

[msjones]

As with any curriculum, adapt as you see fit based on the needs of each child. 

 

My kids have used it for several years and are now competent, confident writers who can pound out organized outlines, paragraphs, essays, stories.  I am very pleased.

 

One of them used it pretty much as written.  I adapted and tweaked it for my more confident, creative writer.  

 

 

[FairProspects]

Agreeing with much of this thread. It is formulaic. I tweak a lot of the dress-up requirements. It is also PERFECT for my dysgraphic who cannot even begin to organize his thoughts without step-by-step hand-holding and an equation to guide him. Do I wish we didn't need it and that my kids would just intuit language from reading that then applies to their writing? Yup. But honestly, that is just not my reality with my boys. They absolutely need the explicit approach that IEW spells out. The fact that IEW is not at all how I think about writing is exactly why it works for ds. Our brains do not approach learning in remotely the same way.

 

I'm sort of amused about the comments that it makes writing too complicated. Language and reading and writing are only simple for kids who intuitively get the code. For kids who do not, IEW is among the more streamlined programs that break it down explicitly. I've looked at many writing programs that are far more convoluted - Step up to Writing, etc.

[bnwhitaker]

In answer to your question, yes. I think it overemphasizes the use of adjectives and adverbs. I think it makes to much of a formula out of writing. I think it makes the writing process way too complicated.

 

Ellie, What do you suggest or what would you do?  Someone who is not a natural writer and needs help to teach it.

 

[bnwhitaker]

I had ds#2 do IEW for 4 years.  It worked well enough and I do think it helped him to learn how to write a paragraph, craft a sentence, and use words he wouldn't otherwise use.  By the 4th year, I was only having him use some of the dress ups once in a 3 paragraph paper.  Then, he wrote something without any direction from Key Word Outlines or using dress ups.  I was impressed and realized for this particular child, IEW would hold him back.  I do think it gave him a foundation of how to write, but I also think it was good to stop when we did.  He has a writing class this year and is doing well.  I listened in on a class and one girl was reading her paper.  She was most likely a type -A follow the rules because I could sniff IEW dress ups a mile away.  She used ALL of them in EVERY paragraph.  Honestly, it was hard to listen to because it was so full of adverbs and adjectives.  Wow---

 

That all being said, I am using it for ds#3 to get him started on the path to writing.  It gives him a place to start and to stop and is helping him write.  My plan is to continue for 3 years with IEW and then also enroll him in an online writing class.  I think it can work to get kids used to writing and teaching them some foundational skills, but I'm not sure how it would work as a program to use throughout their whole school career.

 

Beth

 

Hi Beth, Do you mind sharing where you did or will do the online writing class?  Thank you!

 

[bnwhitaker]

Thank you everyone! I think I understand more clearly now. I need hand held by IEW so it will be a beginning for us. I really know almost nothing. I always get embarrassed to write even comments or questions because I know so many of you see every single mess up :) I don't want to pain you all :)

 

Seems like I will just need to watch my children to see if it is a stumbling block or helpful throughout the years. Hopefully I will learn enough to be able to notice.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank you everyone! I think I understand more clearly now. I need hand held by IEW so it will be a beginning for us. I really know almost nothing. I always get embarrassed to write even comments or questions because I know so many of you see every single mess up :) I don't want to pain you all :)

 

Seems like I will just need to watch my children to see if it is a stumbling block or helpful throughout the years. Hopefully I will learn enough to be able to notice.

The Teacher and Student DVD's are supposed to be really helpful with implementation and several who are currently using them have turned even the video watching into a fun activity for the family.  Maybe someone approaching this with an outside the box attitude can chime in and help you brainstorm some ideas.

[Laura Corin]

 But for a child who stares at a blank sheet of paper and bursts into tears because she can't think of anything to write, IEW is awesome.

 

Just for another idea: Calvin was highly articulate in speech and had a great vocabulary but was afraid to get started.  We used quick writes to get him going.  Once he had done these for about six months, he had worked through the fear, and we were able to start using a bit more structure.

 

If anyone wants details about how quick writes work, I'm happy to describe the process.

 

L

[Another Lynn]

I'm using Bible Heroes for my 2nd grader. The child hates to put pencil to paper, but she does beautiful narrations. I am torn. If all I had her do was narrations (which I wrote), she'd be perfectly happy. She also tolerates copywork pretty well, because there's an end in sight. If I could outsource writing, I would. She struggles with Bible Heroes, but she struggles with any writing that she doesn't want to do. She'll pick out words to use because they are shortest.

 

Not to derail the thread, but if I had a 2nd grader giving me beautiful narrations I would not chance squelching that.  I would continue writing for her/ him to encourage the voice he/she is developing.  I would keep finding other ways to get pencil to paper - copywork, dictation, free writes, sentence writing for short answers in a different subject, letter writing, .... whatever.  You can gradually switch over to written narrations around 4th grade.  Just my personal opinion, but if I saw writer's voice developing in a 2nd grader, I wouldn't push a formulaic approach. 

[sassenach]

I really like IEW as a way to teach a group of writing tools.  I love it for middle school, not as the whole of the student's writing, but as a "class" where one can learn/be forced to practice using different words and structures.  For a kid that doesn't naturally spout off sophisticated sounding sentences, I have found that they are really pleased with their writing and my struggling writers have ended up being kids who like the sound of their own writing after using it for awhile.

 

Down sides- There's no focus on content (and writing at its heart is about communicating ideas), but only on delivery.  So you're not really writing.  This is why I use it in early middle school (or late elementary, as I currently am).  I want the kids to learn the tools, but I don't want to steep ourselves in this type of writing instruction for too long, lest we lose site of what writing is really all about.  It's extreme parts to whole.  I have a reluctant writer who is a big time whole to parts guy.  He doesn't like IEW, though I still think it's good for him.

 

I'm not a writer, so I can really appreciate its benefits.  If you start with a kid who feels foolish when writing, and end with a kid who feels proud, then it's a win.  

 

I'm using it with Bravewriter this year, and that's really working out well.

[bethben]

Hi Beth, Do you mind sharing where you did or will do the online writing class?  Thank you!

 

 

 

My son is currently doing a Narnia class at the Potter's school.  Each week, he needs to write out answers to questions and almost every week do some sort of creative writing assignment of 100+ words, write 2-3 paragraphs comparing/contrasting, or some such extra writing assignment.  In addition, he is learning how to craft a well written 5 paragraph paper using quotes, a thesis, and arguments to back up that thesis.  It's been really good to have someone else to push him farther than I could.  He just needed some outside accountability.  My plan is to start in 6th grade with my 2 other children and enroll them in a basic writing class for that age and progress through Potter's school writing classes as they get older.  I can use IEW to give them a decent foundation, but I need outside help to build on that foundation.  I'm a math brain and writing is something I just need outside help with.

 

Beth

[Momofeat]

Not to jump the post, but for those who have used IEW, what about the other IEW programs, besides their primary one, like the literature programs and writing a novel, etc.? Do those encourage more outside the box thinking and creativity?

I am SO glad you asked this. IEW encourages over-practice of stylistic techniques until a student becomes more advanced and the techniques are easy for them. Many do not hang with it long enough to learn that eventually the requirements are not nearly so stringent. 

 

I teach a high school literature analysis course using Windows to the World, and the requirements are more like, "Uses a variety of sentence openers" rather than a specific number. The focus is on more on structure of the paper rather than the stylistic techniques.

 

Now that my older students are entering college, they are contacting me to let me know how well they're doing with their writing courses. I attribute their success completely & totally to IEW, because I did not know a thing about teaching writing before discovering the TWSS!

[Momofeat]

I really like IEW as a way to teach a group of writing tools.  I love it for middle school, not as the whole of the student's writing, but as a "class" where one can learn/be forced to practice using different words and structures.  For a kid that doesn't naturally spout off sophisticated sounding sentences, I have found that they are really pleased with their writing and my struggling writers have ended up being kids who like the sound of their own writing after using it for awhile.

 

Down sides- There's no focus on content (and writing at its heart is about communicating ideas), but only on delivery.  So you're not really writing.  This is why I use it in early middle school (or late elementary, as I currently am).  I want the kids to learn the tools, but I don't want to steep ourselves in this type of writing instruction for too long, lest we lose site of what writing is really all about.  It's extreme parts to whole.  I have a reluctant writer who is a big time whole to parts guy.  He doesn't like IEW, though I still think it's good for him.

 

I'm not a writer, so I can really appreciate its benefits.  If you start with a kid who feels foolish when writing, and end with a kid who feels proud, then it's a win.  

 

I'm using it with Bravewriter this year, and that's really working out well.

 

The focus becomes more content & structure-oriented and less stylistically-oriented in the high school programs. 

[sunnyday]

Between SWB's writing lectures and Pudewa's, Susan has me swayed in favor of her programs. So for the student and teacher who need structure and basic instruction to be able to get words on paper, the theory is similar but the execution sounds like WWE/WWS wins on age appropriateness and foundation building for later work. That said, I think Bravewriter would be the best fit for me and my kids.

[sassenach]

The focus becomes more content & structure-oriented and less stylistically-oriented in the high school programs. 

That's good to know.  I had no idea.

[ElaineJ]

I haven't used it personally, but I taught a student who had used it and found that he would be baffled when I would ask him to do something off the IEW script. When we did outlining, he insisted that it could only be done one particular way which I honestly did not think was very helpful for this particular student or the assignment I was giving him. Since this kid was typically a creative and flexible guy in other ways, the experience discouraged me from looking into IEW as an option for my own kids. I do, however, have their "Windows to the World" curriculum which I think is excellent. It is designed to teach literary criticism and is not formulaic at all.

Elaine

[FairProspects]

Between SWB's writing lectures and Pudewa's, Susan has me swayed in favor of her programs. So for the student and teacher who need structure and basic instruction to be able to get words on paper, the theory is similar but the execution sounds like WWE/WWS wins on age appropriateness and foundation building for later work. That said, I think Bravewriter would be the best fit for me and my kids.

 

It depends on why a student cannot get words on paper. WWE was a disaster for ds. His language issues are such that he cannot recall words to speech so narrations are absolutely impossible for him. Using the key word outlines of IEW eliminates this recall problem and gives him the tools he needs to retell the content. It doesn't necessarily matter which philosophy I like more, IEW fits for us because it provides the appropriate structure for ds. Each program could be the best fit for a student depending on their needs.

[Rebel Yell]

I had never heard this before? I thought it was kind of known as a "good program".

I realize each program/curr probably has people on both sides of it, opinion wise.

But if some actually think IEW could be a bad move please tell me more? 

 

from K-12th, an IEW writing class at a co-op is the ONLY thing Diamond ever despised. There are not enough harsh words for her hatred of that program.  In 9th grade, it single-handedly sucked the joy of writing out of her- she didn't write again until 11th grade- when she fell in love with OYAN- and she was especially fond of the 'rule' against adverbs. (the usually prop up weak verbs- MUSIC to her ears!)

 

The IEW assignment/correction that completely destroyed all hope for her: "do" was a forbidden word. In one of her writing assignments, her sentence included "Do a few tendus"  ( a ballet-barre warm-up step.)  This is a step that everyone "DOES"- from a 5yo to a master teacher- you don't gracefully execute them (even if you really do :001_rolleyes: ), attack them, perform them, dance them, or anything else- any other verb or adverb combo just sounded idiotic. But the teacher wouldn't allow her to use the word "do."

 

So it was the formula without regard to common sense that drove her away from writing. I wasn't in control due to a co-op situation. (I would have pulled her out had I known sooner)  IEW didn't make her a BAD writer- it made her a NON-writer (for a time.) :crying:

 

What DID work for this child was http://www.oneyearnovel.com/  and

http://www.mottmedia.com/pages/publications.asp?Pub=beechick#HowToWriteClearly

[Farrar]

Wow.  I'm glad to see this set of opinions.  That's exactly how I felt about IEW when I looked at it.  Good for a certain sort of kid who might need really explicit instruction and have to have formulas in order to get moving, but not good for the vast majority of kids and certainly not the way we want to approach writing overall.

[HS Mom in NC]

My middle daughter needed serious help because she was the kid who stared blankly at the paper. I looked into and did some IEW.  Never again. IEW was awful.  I went to the day long video lecture and couldn't believe what a con artist Padewa was.  He went on and on about the founders mimicking different writing styles and suggesting his program teaches the same thing.  It doesn't.  It does the opposite. It teaches children to write thoughtlessly according to his formula.

 

After looking through the actual materials and exercises for elementary school aged kids, I had to completely alter a lot of it to give IEW any real substance. It encouraged children to write badly using excessive, often inappropriately placed descriptive words as "practice" and then scaling back later.  It's not a good idea to teach children how to do something badly (badly chosen words in excess)  in hopes that it will prepare them to do it well in the future. What other discipline does that? IEW taught what's being called "style" over logically choosing an appropriate structure and concisely writing thoughts about content. Content and structure should logically come first when teaching children to write, not style. Excellent modern academic writing is concise and well ordered.

 

Excellent writers don't write formulated 5 paragraph essays-students unable to write well on their own use them.  There are people who need crutches because their body parts don't work well and in those situations, it's better than nothing. That doesn't mean everyone should be immediately handed crutches and that crutches should be normalized and the standard by which all movement should be judged. If your child doesn't need a writing formula crutch, then don't use the ones IEW teaches.  I think some parents and teachers  who are not naturally gifted writers like the formula approach because it's so much easier to grade.  It's just checking off boxes for each part of the formula instead of comparing it to great, natural writing that is far more difficult to pigeon hole.

 

There wasn't enough focus in IEW on very specific types of academic writing.  Writing With Skill by SWB does this very thoroughly. Middle daughter did very well with WWS and didn't find it oppressive at all.  Earlier she had done Simply Grammar by Andreola which requires a child to write their own sentences practicing the grammar rules taught in each lesson. She did well with that one too.  The few months of IEW in between was a waste of time, money and energy.

[msjones]

I think it is essential for a student to be able to write clear, well-organized essays.  IEW teaches that.

 

I have a 'natural' writer who knew nothing about how to structure a 5-paragraph essay or a compare/contrast paper or how to narrow down one of his looooong stories to something manageable.  

 

I think that even gifted writers will benefit from have some formulaic structures at hand.  I used them all through college -- essays tests were a breeze for me because I had done so much structured writing in high school.  

 

I understand the reluctance to make writing too formulaic, but sometimes a formula is just what is called for -- and I want my kids to know the formulas.  

[MyLittleWonders]

IEW works well for my boys (not natural writers - somewhat writing phobic). I do not use it as scripted though. I have the TWSS videos, which I watched, and then we use theme books to practice various styles and skills. I don't make them follow a check-list nor are they required to use all dress-ups as instructed; we practice the "dress-ups" separately, and then together, see where we might fit it in. We also use Killgallon's books and MCT books to give us more practice with writing strong sentences and paragraphs (and for my eldest, moving slowly towards essays).  

 

I love WWE and believe copywork, narrations, and dictation are incredibly important, but mine needed much more structure for actually putting pencil to paper. I tried WWS, twice, with my eldest and it was not going to get us anywhere. My oldest needed a lot of help tightening his writing; IEW forces him to really focus in on the most important points without squelching his creativity. My middle son loves learning the "dress-ups" as he loves playing with language and words. At the end of the day, it's a tool (a major one) that is working for them the way we are using it. Next year I'm going to take my eldest through LToW 1; in high school we will work through IEW's rhetoric book and MP's rhetoric course. IEW is helping them learn how to write, how to organize their thoughts/organize information, and how to put it together. It's been a fantastic program so far for mine, but I think part of that is because I don't let the curriculum dictate how we use it. Once I let go of the idea that I had to use it exactly as written, it's been good for us. 

[shanvan]

OP, you may want to pop over to the high school board to read the discussions about teaching writing.  Those threads contain a lot of info related to the discussion in this thread.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/501384-so-collegeuniversity-writing-instructor-rants-on-high-school-writing-instruction/

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/501612-so-of-a-so-implementing-ideas-for-preparing-our-kids-for-college-level-writing/

 

 

I am teaching the IEW level C Continuation Course to a group and I expressed some of my frustrations on the HS Board.  I was fine with the first course my Dc took--SWI, but I have not been as pleased with the Continuation Course.  I also adapted lessons as My Little Wonders mentioned.  

 

Though IEW is supposed to focus more on content in the high school years, so far the Continuation Course contains checklists for every single assignment.  The kids in the class are so focused on including every single technique in every single paragraph that they forget to check that their writing makes sense.  There is no sign of the checklists for assignments being eliminated in later lessons as the curriculum is written.  I am changing every single assignment and many of the lessons so that the students will stop being so focused on checklists.  They have developed the idea that IEW Checklists & Format = good writing.  Some of them have parents who have been teaching them IEW year after year requiring everything on every checklist and all the formatting IEW teaches.  Those parents seem like they have never heard of dropping the checklists and teaching their Dc to move beyond them.    I agree with much of what Homeschool Mom in AZ wrote.  I'm still using the course, but with heavy modification.  I am also annoyed at the cursory mention of grammar concepts and dumbing down of grammatical terms too (I'm talking about in the higher levels here).  I spend hours designing mini lessons to teach the grammar behind some of the stylistic techniques.  I like the systematic introduction of dress-ups and decorations.  I dislike the checklist/format mentality when it is carried too far. 

 

Year after year of following checklists?  Yes, I think that could be bad for a child's writing development.  Making it work for you and realizing there is more to writing than IEW  (or any curriculum, for that matter)  as My Little Wonders mentions is a good approach.  Unfortunately, I've met many parents who use it exactly as written and don't feel confident enough to adapt or break away from the curriculum.  My Dc have done one Student writing Intensive and now one heavily modified Continuation Course and that's enough for us.  We will keep the list of techniques handy and we'll experiment with using them, but we will not follow a prescribed IEW curriculum.

 

It's worth mentioning that some of the curriculum sold by IEW for high school (like Windows to the World and The Elegant Essay) do not have rigid checklists or formats.  

 

I'll also add that I've been searching for quality essay models for my students to examine.  I've looked at essays all weekend and I have yet to find a single essay (written by a well respected writer) that looks anything like the format required by the IEW checklists.   Certainly the writers are using some of the the techniques taught in IEW, but so far not a single essay follows the format the students are supposed to be following as taught in the curriculum.  Not even anything close.  I'm not done looking yet, but I think I've come to the point of having to decide if I will drop the format and allow more freedom after having them examine essays, or explain that we will be working toward that freedom.  Formats can be useful at times and do have their good points, so I hesitate to just throw them out the window.

 

Sorry, that was a lot, and I rattled on.....   :blushing:  

 

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

But if some actually think IEW could be a bad move please tell me more? 

 

It could be a bad move for your child just like Writing With Skill could be a bad move for your child.  Bravewriter could be a bad move for your child.  Writing Strands, Classical Writing, or Jump In could be a bad move.  

 

Any program that works for your child, regardless of anyone else's opinion of it, is a good program. 

[HS Mom in NC]

 

I'll also add that I've been searching for quality essay models for my students to examine.  I've looked at essays all weekend and I have yet to find a single essay (written by a well respected writer) that looks anything like the format required by the IEW checklists.   Certainly the writers are using some of the the techniques taught in IEW, but so far not a single essay follows the format the students are supposed to be following as taught in the curriculum.  Not even anything close.  I'm not done looking yet, but I think I've come to the point of having to decide if I will drop the format and allow more freedom after having them examine essays, or explain that we will be working toward that freedom.  Formats can be useful at times and do have their good points, so I hesitate to just throw them out the window.

 

   :blushing:  

 

Exactly!  Excellence in writing is writing done by the the best of the best.  Nothing IEW does resembles the best of the best, and therefore, it's not excellence in writing. That doesn't mean I expect every kid to be able to write like the best, but why shoot so low as to look at Padewa's formulas when there are far better examples out there to emulate and learn from?

 

When I was in high school (graduated in '91)  I took what was mislabled "College Prep English" my senior year. There was no college prep content, it was 5 paragraph essays and a very basic research paper.  I wrote one of mine on why 5 paragraph essays were categorically bad examples of writing, one of the formulated points being that no great writer has ever written one and no great writing even resembles them. The teacher thought it was funny and true but pointed out that most students are naturally bad writers, so 5 paragraph essays were all she could hope for when teaching the masses and had me rewrite the paper on another topic so she didn't have a mutiny on her hands.  She also said English teachers insisted on using the 5 paragraph essay format because it was easy to teach and easy to grade-not because it was good writing. She had about 160 to grade. So, I guess in a classroom environment it might make sense.

 

[5LittleMonkeys]

 Padewa's 

 

 

I find it humorous that you are intimate enough with his program to dislike it so much but you can't get his name right.   ;)

 

I've not come across many home schoolers who are adamant about implying a program is bad for everyone when they've only had their own experience with their own children to base its effectiveness on. The problem with doing so is that you leave those who are using that program, and having success with it when no other program would work, left feeling as if they are damaging their child.  

[msjones]

My boys know that this is not THE way to write.  I tell them it's one way to write.  It's straightforward and functional.  

 

It is certainly not expansive and explorational and brimming with beauty.

 

But, it is a great tool to teach a student to communicate clearly in a structured fashion.  And for now, that's my goal.  

 

 

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I find it humorous that you are intimate enough with his program to dislike it so much but you can't get his name right.   ;)

 

I've not come across many home schoolers who are adamant about implying a program is bad for everyone when they've only had their own experience with their own children to base it's effectiveness on. The problem with doing so is that you leave those who are using that program, and having success with it when no other program would work, left feeling as if they are damaging their child.  

 

No, I didn't bother to look up the correct spelling of the unusual name a person whose curriculum I looked into in detail several years ago. I'm not sure that's relevant to the specific arguments I made about what the goals of writing should be, what approaches are less effective and what to use as standards for measuring excellence.

 

I made it clear that it's better than nothing, but based on his approaches and techniques, I do think there are things that are categorically better than better than nothing.  I think even my former English teacher recognized that.  That's relevant to what the OP specifically asked about when she asked if we thought it could be bad for writing skills.  Yes, I think heavy use of bad formula is bad for writing skills compared to other options out there.

 

You should get used to the idea that some homeschoolers really do think some things are worse options than others-that happens. I'm sure you'll see more of it in the future if you read curriculum reviews here and other places. 

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

 

You should get used to the idea that some homeschoolers really do think some things are worse options than others-that happens. I'm sure you'll see more of it in the future if you read curriculum reviews here and other places. 

 

I'm not new to homeschooling nor new to this board. I've read more reviews here and across the internet than I care to count, and still hold that most often the reviews indicate why a program did or didn't work for that particular family, or the reviewer will indicate what type of child a program might or might not work well for. I can honestly say that I've never read a review in which the author of a program was called a con artist. (Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places :tongue_smilie: .)  That is what jaded my opinion of anything else you might have to say about IEW.  Your posts implied that anyone using IEW did so because they were uneducated in what good writing is and were using it out of ignorance.  Sorry - that just hits me the wrong way. 

 

I suppose we can let the thousands and thousands of positive reviews be the testament to the success of IEW for many students. IEW has been around for a long time.  If it was doing the damage you think it is capable of I would think that reputation would have put them out of business a long time ago.  

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm not new to homeschooling nor new to this board. I've read more reviews here and across the internet than I care to count, and still hold that most often the reviews indicate why a program did or didn't work for that particular family, or the reviewer will indicate what type of child a program might or might not work well for. I can honestly say that I've never read a review in which the author of a program was called a con artist. (Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places :tongue_smilie: .)  That is what jaded my opinion of anything else you might have to say about IEW.  Your posts implied that anyone using IEW did so because they were uneducated in what good writing is and were using it out of ignorance.  Sorry - that just hits me the wrong way. 

 

I suppose we can let the thousands and thousands of positive reviews be the testament to the success of IEW for many students. IEW has been around for a long time.  If it was doing the damage you think it is capable of I would think that reputation would have put them out of business a long time ago.  

 

Then this has been a good broadening experience for you. There are people who will do what you've seen in the past and there are others, like me, who will be straightforward and honest that they think a curriculum fails to deliver what it claims it will and then specifically gives examples of how.    That's to be expected among a group of people as widely diverse as the international homeschooling community.There are people like me who have very different standards for what qualifies as good writing-of course,  people are different. People have different educational philosophies. None of that should be surprising.  

 

If you think my evaluation of IEW's late elementary aged writing is harsh, then my standards for high school will flat out scare you. Don't be surprised at the Classical Trivium boards when some of us use models in Classical Literature and Formal Logic (as it relates to argumentation like in the Cothran series) as a measure of good writing.   You can decide to use whatever you want, but I think it's unrealistic of you to expect people like me, who take serious issue with almost every element of a curriculum,  to say we think there's someone out there who could thrive using IEW compared to other options. It's simply a fundamental difference in what qualifies as good writing and what are effective ways of teaching it. I answered the question asked.

[EKS]

I think the stylistic stuff in IEW could be bad.  I thought the keyword outline approach to jump start writing worked well though.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Then this has been a good broadening experience for you. There are people who will do what you've seen in the past and there are others,

...

 

If you think my evaluation of IEW's late elementary aged writing is harsh, then my standards for high school will flat out scare you. ..

 

Really unnecessary.  You just need to let go that not everyone will agree with you, and that it's okay.  I'm actually embarrassed by your rudeness.

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I find myself trying to decide whether to chuckle, groan, or bristle at some of the posts in this thread. Is it not slightly ironic that the same woman who wrote WWS has also recommended IEW? Hmmm. No, actually. I don't think it is ironic. I think it is simply indicative of an understanding that different things work for different kids and teachers, for different reasons.

[Momofeat]

OP, you may want to pop over to the high school board to read the discussions about teaching writing.  Those threads contain a lot of info related to the discussion in this thread.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/501384-so-collegeuniversity-writing-instructor-rants-on-high-school-writing-instruction/

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/501612-so-of-a-so-implementing-ideas-for-preparing-our-kids-for-college-level-writing/

 

 

I am teaching the IEW level C Continuation Course to a group and I expressed some of my frustrations on the HS Board.  I was fine with the first course my Dc took--SWI, but I have not been as pleased with the Continuation Course.  I also adapted lessons as My Little Wonders mentioned.  

 

Though IEW is supposed to focus more on content in the high school years, so far the Continuation Course contains checklists for every single assignment.  The kids in the class are so focused on including every single technique in every single paragraph that they forget to check that their writing makes sense.  There is no sign of the checklists for assignments being eliminated in later lessons as the curriculum is written.  I am changing every single assignment and many of the lessons so that the students will stop being so focused on checklists.  They have developed the idea that IEW Checklists & Format = good writing.  Some of them have parents who have been teaching them IEW year after year requiring everything on every checklist and all the formatting IEW teaches.  Those parents seem like they have never heard of dropping the checklists and teaching their Dc to move beyond them.    I agree with much of what Homeschool Mom in AZ wrote.  I'm still using the course, but with heavy modification.  I am also annoyed at the cursory mention of grammar concepts and dumbing down of grammatical terms too (I'm talking about in the higher levels here).  I spend hours designing mini lessons to teach the grammar behind some of the stylistic techniques.  I like the systematic introduction of dress-ups and decorations.  I dislike the checklist/format mentality when it is carried too far. 

 

Year after year of following checklists?  Yes, I think that could be bad for a child's writing development.  Making it work for you and realizing there is more to writing than IEW  (or any curriculum, for that matter)  as My Little Wonders mentions is a good approach.  Unfortunately, I've met many parents who use it exactly as written and don't feel confident enough to adapt or break away from the curriculum.  My Dc have done one Student writing Intensive and now one heavily modified Continuation Course and that's enough for us.  We will keep the list of techniques handy and we'll experiment with using them, but we will not follow a prescribed IEW curriculum.

 

It's worth mentioning that some of the curriculum sold by IEW for high school (like Windows to the World and The Elegant Essay) do not have rigid checklists or formats.  

 

I'll also add that I've been searching for quality essay models for my students to examine.  I've looked at essays all weekend and I have yet to find a single essay (written by a well respected writer) that looks anything like the format required by the IEW checklists.   Certainly the writers are using some of the the techniques taught in IEW, but so far not a single essay follows the format the students are supposed to be following as taught in the curriculum.  Not even anything close.  I'm not done looking yet, but I think I've come to the point of having to decide if I will drop the format and allow more freedom after having them examine essays, or explain that we will be working toward that freedom.  Formats can be useful at times and do have their good points, so I hesitate to just throw them out the window.

 

Sorry, that was a lot, and I rattled on.....   :blushing:  

Since I've posted that IEW emphasizes stylistic techniques less in the high school years, I feel a need to clarify my posts after reading this.

 

The high school level courses I have taught include Windows to the World, Elegant Essay, Speech Boot Camp and High School Essay Intensive. I have never taught the Level C Continuation Course. From this description, it sounds like the SICC does not emphasize them any less.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Since I've posted that IEW emphasizes stylistic techniques less in the high school years, I feel a need to clarify my posts after reading this.

 

The high school level courses I have taught include Windows to the World, Elegant Essay, Speech Boot Camp and High School Essay Intensive. I have never taught the Level C Continuation Course. From this description, it sounds like the SICC does not emphasize them any less.

 

Good to know. Also, I feel the need to point out that in the TWSS seminar, teachers are instructed to change (and eventually eliminate) the required stylistic techniques as students master each one.