s/o Those of you that think gas prices should equal Europe's

[Mrs Mungo]

But we have to drive everywhere. The closest large city to me is Melbourne - over 400 km away. The closest largish shopping center is over 100 km. the closest town is 20 km away. The closest cinema is 70 km away(not that I go). I live right on the coast. believe me we have a lot of coast and we are spread right along it. still a long way to drive to anything

Which is the same complaint from people in the US, only you have 23.3 million people and we have 314 million. Our population is huge and spread out across the entire landmass which varies much more in topography and weather than Australia. It is easier to compare the US to Europe.

[Laura Corin]

I'm not finding anything with 80, 60, or hell even barely 30 mpg.

 

Help!

 

I'm very curious now.

British gallons and American gallons are not the same size: an American pint is two ounces smaller than a British pint.  It skews the MPG figures.

 

L

[Incognito]

Well, it may have been my slightly inflammatorily phrased unpopular confession that got you asking, so I'll pop on to give a comment.

 

I don't want to destroy America or poor Americans.  I've just lived both ways and think that (a bit like universal healthcare) Americans don't know what they are missing and have been fed lies to want something that they don't even really have.

 

The sprawl in my hometown now is insane.  Homes shouldn't be built so far away that you HAVE to drive 45 minutes to work minimum.  Communities should be built to be actual communities - not bedroom communities or unwalkable strip mall communities.

 

And don't get me wrong - I LOVE having cheaper flights to catch in the US or filling up on the cheap side of the border, but that's me being an opportunist.  It would be appropriate for me to pay whatever the true cost is for such things and fly to visit my family less often/drive a little less. 

 

Mrs. Mungo and many others made polite, coherent arguments about why.  I'm up past my bedtime so my answer is a bit of me shooting my mouth off like the the confessions thread, but please do know that I don't wish ill on my American countrymen and am not a bleeding heart liberal or tree hugger or whathaveyou.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

The sprawl in my hometown now is insane.  Homes shouldn't be built so far away that you HAVE to drive 45 minutes to work minimum.  Communities should be built to be actual communities - not bedroom communities or unwalkable strip mall communities.

 

 

There's something else going on here too.  I don't know about other European countries, but it's very hard to get planning permission to build on green field land here.  Infill is possible, as is replacing previous buildings.  But you can't just buy a field and build on it.  Most cities have 'green belts' around them, in order to avoid urban sprawl.  

 

The policy has an effect on house prices, but it means that UK cities tend to be more compact.

 

L

[Jane in NC]

And then there is heating...the next largest percentage of petroleum consumption goes to that. Every year

we have at least one elderly person in our community die from freezing to death because of poverty...if

fuel oil or propane takes a major price increase then it happens to more than one.

 

Faith, I am a bleeding heart so please do not interpret this as a slight against the elderly or the poor because that is not how it is intended. 

 

Regarding heating:  Every winter there is a discussion on this board of thermostat settings in the winter.  Our European and Canadian friends always seem to have lower thermostat settings.  They tell their kids to put on another sweater and have a hot drink. 

 

I grew up in the frigid north during the fuel crisis of the '70's.  By American standards, my house today is probably cool during the winter months, particularly at night.  (I have thermal windows that pull in a lot of sun during the day in these months. My trees keep the sun at bay during the summer.)  I think the heating argument falls flat since most people I know overheat and overcool their homes--and frankly many of them have far more house than is really necessary. 

 

My dad has a Camry Hybrid and he had to replace the battery last year at 127k miles. It cost him a whopping $4500 to do so. Now MA probably has higher-than-average labor rates but you'd still be talking several grand.

 

Yup--this is why I chose to go with a diesel instead of a hybrid when I recently bought a new car.

 

 

Homes shouldn't be built so far away that you HAVE to drive 45 minutes to work minimum.  Communities should be built to be actual communities - not bedroom communities or unwalkable strip mall communities.

 

 

 

Incognito has hit on something.  Whenever these discussions on conservation or sustainability occur, people say that a change won't work for them in their current situation.  Communities need to develop land use plans so that future development is reconsidered through new eyes.  I grew up in a small Cape Cod style bungalow house in a Midwestern neighborhood where one could walk to school and the grocery.  By the time I was a teen, people were moving to the burbs and had to drive everywhere.  Mass transit did not reach their cul de sac. 

 

Things are always changing.  Just because something won't work for one community as it is structured today does not imply that the idea is a bad one for the future. 

[Jane in NC]

Ok, but how much did the diesel car cost compared to a car that is comparable?  How much do you drive?

 

I'm talking about "my" circumstances.  There is no way a diesel car would save me money. 

 

I've been "window shopping" for cars lately.  I saw a plug in car that would get me 95 miles city.  Geesh at the rate I drive, I wouldn't spend much money to power up my car.  BUT the car also starts at 30K.  That's almost 2x more than I want to pay (or really what I can comfortably afford to pay).  And really for me to spend 30K on a car is kinda stupid for the amount of driving I do.  The car is not going to last me 50 years.  KWIM?

 

So it might save you money for your situation, but I don't think that is true for everyone. 

 

I did not negotiate a price for a non-diesel version of my vehicle but I believe there is roughly a $1500-1750 price difference from what I see online.  This is for a new car which is what I bought. 

 

According to a University of Michigan study, the diesel version of my car offers a savings of over $3000 over a period of three to five years.  But you are right--those are general statistics that may not work for you.

 

I live in a small town. Much of what I do in town (which admittedly is not a whole lot) can be accomplished via walking or bicycle.  When I run errands, I travel a mile or so to a highway with a 55 mph speed limit.  The point is that I do very little start and stop driving.  I rarely sit in traffic.

 

So yes our circumstances are all different. I bought what I knew what would work for me and I had the luxury of buying new.

[Haiku]

The people who are saying that higher gas prices wouldn't work for them in the current situations are missing the point. The point is to make a change away from our unsustainable lifestyles to something that is more ecologically and economically sustainable. If we don't, we will collapse at some point. It's inevitable. Look at history. Any empire that predicates itself on an unsustainable lifestyle eventually crumbles. 

[momto10blessings]

I love living in my bubble. I asked my husband, mom and sister "Do you know there's actually people out there who WANT gas prices to be ridiculously high?" Apparently I'm the only one who didn't know. I'm going back to my bubble. And I should start training my 9 kids to walk the 20+ miles to town

[Farrar]

The people who are saying that higher gas prices wouldn't work for them in the current situations are missing the point. The point is to make a change away from our unsustainable lifestyles to something that is more ecologically and economically sustainable. If we don't, we will collapse at some point. It's inevitable. Look at history. Any empire that predicates itself on an unsustainable lifestyle eventually crumbles. 

 

Exactly.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I love living in my bubble. I asked my husband, mom and sister "Do you know there's actually people out there who WANT gas prices to be ridiculously high?" Apparently I'm the only one who didn't know. I'm going back to my bubble. And I should start training my 9 kids to walk the 20+ miles to town

Did you happen to elaborate about the reasons why when talking to your husband, mom, and sister? Did you have a conversation about the reality or just vent incredulous mockery? You seem to have missed the whole point here. And bubbles burst. It might not burst in your lifetime but my guess is your 9 kids won't benefit in the long run from being confined to your happy little bubble.

[momto10blessings]

Did you happen to elaborate about the reasons why when talking to your husband, mom, and sister? Did you have a conversation about the reality or just vent incredulous mockery? You seem to have missed the whole point here. And bubbles burst. It might not burst in your lifetime but my guess is your 9 kids won't benefit in the long run from being confined to your happy little bubble.

 

incredulous mockery, definitely!

 

They'll have to live in my bubble since we won't be able to drive our large van anywhere.

[mytwomonkeys]

it would be difficult for sure. my husband works very close, so it wouldn't impact his commute necessarily.  however, we live in a very small town and do a lot of our shopping in nearby towns (that offer more than the family dollar and dollar general, lol) so even walmart is a big trip here.  that would affect our gas budget for sure. my parents live 6 hours away & visiting them would become much more costly!!

[momto10blessings]

it would be difficult for sure. my husband works very close, so it wouldn't impact his commute necessarily. however, we live in a very small town and do a lot of our shopping in nearby towns (that offer more than the family dollar and dollar general, lol) so even walmart is a big trip here. that would affect our gas budget for sure. my parents live 6 hours away & visiting them would become much more costly!!

You don't REALLY need to visit family, do you? Skype is almost the same.

[Alte Veste Academy]

incredulous mockery, definitely!

 

They'll have to live in my bubble since we won't be able to drive our large van anywhere.

LOL I hear the internet and TV are far reaching these days! And they can penetrate bubbles! ;)

 

No one is telling individual families to start making drastic changes or to start training their kids to walk a marathon on by daily basis. That would just be silly. This conversation is not about immediate individual action. It is just about being aware of the unsustainable illusion of low gas prices. But as a country of individuals, continuing to put our heads in the sand is worse than silly. Your bubble is an illusion. You may prefer to stay in it, but don't be surprised when it pops.

[mytwomonkeys]

You don't REALLY need to visit family, do you? Skype is almost the same.

 

lol. yes, we can just facetime. same difference!  or we can just keep up on facebook!

[NatashainDFW]

I live in a town that can't keep safe drinking water running to the residents. I highly doubt the local government could ever make a move to a community where vehicles are not necessary.

[FaithManor]

Jane,

 

My argument does not fall flat. I've been talking with several PHD's from U of M and MTU who have been working out the math. Heating is part of the equation. It has to be with 300 million people in this country and it's not a matter of conservation due to overheating. It is a matter of draconian rationing in the future. It will not be a thermostat set at 65 or 62. It will mean that the bulk of the population can only afford a thermostat set at 55, and NO with a 16 trillion dollar plus debt, the feds aren't going to hand out money for new roofs, new energy star efficient windows, new siding, more insulation to every poor and low income person living in a drafty, old POS house or apartment. The landlord isn't going to do it either because he can't afford it.

 

That is what the next generation is facing. Draconian rationing of gasoline AND heating fuel because the American people have preferred their heads be in the sand, and the wealthy elites who run this nation have operated just like Ancient Rome...Panem et Circenses...give them bread and entertainment and they won't notice what the hell we are or are not doing in the Capitol until it's too late.

 

But, like everyone else since there isn't anything I can personally do about it because the train is going to fast to get off of it except assuage my conscience by driving fuel efficient cars, heating with alternative energy that is NOT an option in urban environments but at least we don't consume propane...oh, 100 gallons of it sits in a tank out back in case of emergencies, but that's it...reduce plastics down to the absolute bare minimum, grow some of my own food or buy local from area farmers so we consume less of what is trucked here at high cost to the environment. replace the windows in my home, buy more blow in insulation, put a steel roof on the house, and.... all of which are luxuries because we are higher income...the poor, the huge number of poor and low income families in Michigan cannot afford this because it takes money to conserve energy and a nation 16+ trillion dollars in debt can't afford to give them the money either, I spend most days trying not to dwell on it.

 

In this season, I have to admit that the words of Scrooge come to mind, " I have been forced to support the establishments I have mentioned through taxation and God knows they cost more than they're worth. Those who are badly off must go there."

 

"Many would rather die than go there."

 

"If they'd rather die, then they had better do it and decrease the surplus population. Good night, gentlemen."

 

And historically that is how it is done...competition for waning resources causes an evolutionary culling" - which means in modern times he who has the most money and power wins - war for those commodities and centralized control over the resources with mandatory rationing without compassion for those who will suffer and die due to the rationing is the name of the game. It thins the herd.

 

Americans tend to believe that the nation is invincible and history only repeats itself in other parts of the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but history is already repeating itself right here in the good ole U.S. of A. and it will get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better, and there is going to be a lot of pain unless the culture and it's bobbleheaded government wakes up and smells the coffee. It should have happened 40 years ago. It didn't. So, don't think there won't be any pain. Don't think that massive changes will somehow occur with minimal angst. Forget angst. There is a very real, very decent size population of people who will suffer mightily.

 

Such a nice Happy Holiday fact. My daughter has cancer. I just hugged her goodbye since she came home for a short visit before intensive testing begins. She is losing her barely affordable health insurance policy due to her husband being laid off from his government contract. She is eligible for medical through her paramedic job and it's a good policy, but there is no guarantee she'll be well enough to work through her treatment. Then she'll lose her job. We'll pay for as many months of cobra as she is eligible for, and hope to God by then he has found work that it provides a policy with a premium we can afford to pay for them. Knowing how this has panned out in other families, I don't feel statistically fortuitous at this time.

 

Maybe I should take a board break. All of the crap in this nation is hitting too close to home right now, and trying to maintain an act of "nobody has to pay for the sins of previous generations", "let's keep our heads in the sand as long as we can", and "let's believe that the poor and low income won't have to suffer" is too hard. I can't drink the coolaid anymore.

 

Panem et Circenses.

 

 

 

[Haiku]

I live in a town that can't keep safe drinking water running to the residents. I highly doubt the local government could ever make a move to a community where vehicles are not necessary.

 

Then that town will be abandoned. This is what happens to unsuitable habitations. It always has been this way. People use the land and the resources until they no longer meet their needs, and then they move on.

[Lisbeth]

I have no interest in public transportation. I like the safety of my own vehicle. With my own vehicle I can have my gun too, as an extension of my CCW rights. On public transport, it would probably be gun free for the law abiding. Thug field day.

 

I prefer driving in my safe suburb over walking around a city and having to worry about the knockout game or other crime. People left cities for rational reasons.

 

I find it amusing that some of the wealthiest people I know want higher gas prices too...they want easier commutes/emptier streets for their convenience. I disagree w them, too. The higher gas price thing, like the obamacare thing, will only end up hurting the poor.

[Χά�ων]

Then that town will be abandoned. This is what happens to unsuitable habitations. It always has been this way. People use the land and the resources until they no longer meet their needs, and then they move on.

Those who cannot afford to move will have to stay. A roof over their heads is better than none.

[Haiku]

Those who cannot afford to move will have to stay. A roof over their heads is better than none.

 

This is still a short-term mindset. I'm taking the long view in this discussion.

[Χά�ων]

.

 

Hugs. I feel your pain and share your worry. Every day I worry about DS. How will he afford health insurance for his major medical needs as an adult? Am I advocating to get him the best as a child only for him to die a slow painful death as an adult because the $2000+ in medication that drug companies stop willy nilly plus extreme costs to see his doctor is out of reach?

 

I fear for his future.

[Mergath]

I have no interest in public transportation. I like the safety of my own vehicle. With my own vehicle I can have my gun too, as an extension of my CCW rights. On public transport, it would probably be gun free for the law abiding. Thug field day.

 

I prefer driving in my safe suburb over walking around a city and having to worry about the knockout game or other crime. People left cities for rational reasons.

 

I find it amusing that some of the wealthiest people I know want higher gas prices too...they want easier commutes/emptier streets for their convenience. I disagree w them, too. The higher gas price thing, like the obamacare thing, will only end up hurting the poor.

 

I lived for five years in a moderate-sized city with extensive public transportation, and I don't recall ever once hearing about a crime being committed on a bus.  Something about being in close proximity to twenty witnesses seems to discourage that.  But there were plenty of stories of people driving alone being assaulted or carjacked.

[Χά�ων]

This is still a short-term mindset. I'm taking the long view in this discussion.

Long term for me. I will be stuck.

[Χά�ων]

I lived for five years in a moderate-sized city with extensive public transportation, and I don't recall ever once hearing about a crime being committed on a bus. Something about being in close proximity to twenty witnesses seems to discourage that. But there were plenty of stories of people driving alone being assaulted or carjacked.

I am rural but get the news from the city. I hear about it 2-3 times a year.

[Haiku]

Long term for me. I will be stuck.

 

Long-term is longer than the span of your lifetime, or mine.

[LibraryLover]

I have lived in cities, and currently live in a city, that are considered 'communist' by some with radio shows. After reading this last page, I have got say how grateful I am for that. Bikes, walking, buses, lefty politics, bio fuel stations etc etc. I'm about to ride my bike to work-- without a weapon, but with a dorky yellow safety vest..

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have a hard time thinking that far ahead. I'm just trying to survive.  I suspect a lot of people fall into that category and that is why they don't think long term so often.

 

Unfortunately, we can't rely on our elected officials either.  They can't seem to make decisions.  Not even when it really matters. 

 

And this, in a nutshell, is why I think we are royally...

 

Our elected officials don't do many hard things that must ultimately be done (it's only a matter of time) because so many individuals (aka voters) refuse to look at the long view. Look at all the posts in this thread. Me, me, me, my situation... And that's human nature, of course, and some people obviously just can't because they really are in survival mode. But many (most?) aren't.

 

Whatever happened to "ask not what your country can do for you" in terms of personal vs societal good? So many of us seem so gosh darn selfish and short-sighted. I personally believe that selfishness and entitlement on the part of Americans is what is ultimately strangling our government. Anyone brave enough to start making changes, anyone sensible enough in terms of long-term strategic planning to start making incremental moves toward progress has to get people on board and keep them on board to avoid getting voted out of office so that any progress made doesn't immediately come undone. Until the veil is lifted, until pain is inflicted because change didn't happen, people will think the situation is fine as is. It's going to have to hurt individuals before individuals care enough to get and stay on board.

[BarbecueMom]

I lived for five years in a moderate-sized city with extensive public transportation, and I don't recall ever once hearing about a crime being committed on a bus. Something about being in close proximity to twenty witnesses seems to discourage that. But there were plenty of stories of people driving alone being assaulted or carjacked.

I worked for the county police department when bus service expanded to the shopping center near my then-apartment at the edge of the county. There was a sharp increase in shoplifting, robberies (including banks), and especially stolen cars and carjackings nearby. People with nothing better to do would take the bus out as far as they could go, then steal a car (or hit the girl scraping her windows, then steal her car - bonus, stolen car and could even see out of the windshield!) and drive back up to the city and abandon the car somewhere. When budget cuts forced them to close that bus route, crime dropped.

 

I'm not opposed to an efficient, expanded mass transit system at all, but since I live near a city with a high crime rate and in an area with a meth and heroin problem, I want assurance that it will be safe for not just riders, but also the residents and businesses nearby. Because this is such a fragmented area, with several independent municipalities with varying degrees of police coverage and local government systems in two states, this problem isn't just going to be solved with a transportation tax. You'd need to restructure the entire metro area.

[Jane in NC]

Faith darling,

 

I think we are on the same page.  You know that I too am a pragmatic Midwestern at heart. 

 

And I am so, so sorry to hear about your daughter's situation.  Life is d**n unfair.

 

Hugs to you and your family,

Jane

[Alte Veste Academy]

But don't you think those most guilty of not willing to look long term are those with the most power and money?  What do they care?  KWIM?  It's really, IMO, not the powerless little average guy.  I think those powerless little average people for the most part could get on board with change.  I mean hey, they stand to lose very little.

 

On the contrary, I think the rich and powerful are the ones most likely to be looking at the long term. They are the ones running the smoke and mirrors.

 

The powerless little average guy has the same voting power as the rich and powerful. Not the lobbying power, sure. And that's a problem. But voting power, yes. If enough little average guys paid attention and demanded meaningful answers with even a modicum of depth, the situation could improve immensely. But it goes back to people being taking a short view and being primarily concerned with their own interests...to the point that they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

 

[Haiku]

Unfortunately, we can't rely on our elected officials either.  They can't seem to make decisions.  Not even when it really matters. 

 

They don't make decisions because the people they represent spend too much time in-fighting and refusing to allow "the other side" to win. We view the issues we face as political pawns and as ideological battles and not as opportunities to solve problems and band together for the common good. We can't even agree that ecological protection and economic stability are part of "the common good." We can't even agree that we should have a common good.

 

As far as not thinking too far ahead, well, that's why we are in the mess we're in. We're too concerned about right now to consider where our "right now" is taking us. When people stand up and try to get people to see that ignoring problems in the here and now just makes them more complex and harder to solve in the long-run, we are accused of not giving a damn about the poor, the rural, the elderly, etc., when, in fact, it is precisely because we care about those people that we are trying to get everyone to wake up and take ownership of the problems we've created. It's extremely frustrating.

 

 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I have no interest in public transportation. I like the safety of my own vehicle. With my own vehicle I can have my gun too, as an extension of my CCW rights. On public transport, it would probably be gun free for the law abiding. Thug field day.

 

Ummm.   Wow.

[Catwoman]

Ummm. Wow.

Not for anything, but you have no idea what it's like where Lisbeth lives. Perhaps she lives in very dangerous area.

 

Hey, I don't carry a gun and I find it disconcerting when I'm in a place where people are allowed to do so, but that doesn't mean I'm going to judge someone without having the slightest clue about where and how she lives. Maybe public transportation is very unsafe where she lives, and she feels safer in her car.

[mumto2]

Faith --

 

I couldn't like your post after reading the part about your dd. :grouphug: I will include her in my prayers during the coming weeks.

 

As someone originally from Michigan I understand and agree with much of what you are saying.

[Catwoman]

I'm currently waiting for my car to be fixed. I've been waiting about a week and a half. I was moaning to DH today (who even offered to come home and drive me somewhere if I wanted). I don't necessarily NEED to go anywhere, but stinks that I can't (so easily). He mentioned the bus. Ugh... I don't like taking the bus and I don't really know how to take the bus. And yeah in large part I don't feel safe.

 

Just whining here....

 

My car is SUPPOSED to be done today. *sigh*

Wow, I can't believe they haven't fixed your car yet -- it seems to be taking forever!

 

I hope you get it back today.

[Melissa in Australia]

 

 

Such a nice Happy Holiday fact. My daughter has cancer. I just hugged her goodbye since she came home for a short visit before intensive testing begins. She is losing her barely affordable health insurance policy due to her husband being laid off from his government contract. She is eligible for medical through her paramedic job and it's a good policy, but there is no guarantee she'll be well enough to work through her treatment. Then she'll lose her job. We'll pay for as many months of cobra as she is eligible for, and hope to God by then he has found work that it provides a policy with a premium we can afford to pay for them. Knowing how this has panned out in other families, I don't feel statistically fortuitous at this time.

 

Maybe I should take a board break. All of the crap in this nation is hitting too close to home right now, and trying to maintain an act of "nobody has to pay for the sins of previous generations", "let's keep our heads in the sand as long as we can", and "let's believe that the poor and low income won't have to suffer" is too hard. I can't drink the coolaid anymore.

 

Panem et Circenses.

So sorry

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  

[Melissa in Australia]

 

 

That is what the next generation is facing. Draconian rationing of gasoline AND heating fuel because the American people have preferred their heads be in the sand, and the wealthy elites who run this nation have operated just like Ancient Rome...Panem et Circenses...give them bread and entertainment and they won't notice what the hell we are or are not doing in the Capitol until it's too late.

 

It is not just USA that is doing this, it seems to be a western civ problem at the moment

[Lady Florida.]

This is a good question with no easy answers. The size of the U.S. combined with how our population is spread out (I didn't quote but am thinking of Mrs. Mungo's response about Australia's population being mostly along the coastline) makes it difficult but not impossible. We need to do something. I don't think we should continue to rely on fossil fuels, for a number of reasons.

 

I think gas prices should be raised and used to improve infrastructure, including some sort of national mass transit system. It would need to be done incrementally and concurrently. An immediate large increase in gas prices would be financially devastating for too many people. But if prices were raised incrementally, AND work on infrastructure/mass transit went along with those increases it could be done. It would probably take 10-20 years but in the long run would be a good thing.

 

 

I would, but the thing is I wouldn't hold my breath that that is what they'd spend the money on.  Like in NY they tax cigarettes to death.  Most of the money does not go into smoking cessation and prevention programs (like they make it seem).

 

Yep. While not a tax, the Florida Lottery was sold to voters as something that would help our public education system. I was teaching at the time, and politicians and teachers unions pushed hard on us teachers to support it. It wasn't supposed to affect our salaries, but would help schools in general with improvements in everything from buildings to supplies and books. It also was going to supplement the education budget. Ha! First, the money couldn't be specified to only go to education, since the state constitution prohibited such a thing. Second, lottery money ended up supplanting, not supplementing the education budget. So yeah, it's hard to trust that money (tax/fees/lottery money) earmarked* for a particular thing will actually be spent on that thing.

 

Sadly the more efficient vehicles are more expensive too.

 

 

 

I would hope, as with much new technology, they'll become more affordable at some point. I read somewhere that it's city drivers who get the most out of hybrid cars because it's the stop-and-go where you save the most money. If you have a long commute, the benefits aren't as great, though they're still better for the environment. Also, I think it was 5 years you need to have it before it pays for itself. This was something I read 2 or 3 years ago, so I don't know if things have changed. I haven't kept up with the latest technology of hybrid and other fuel efficient vehicles. They're a start, but I wish auto companies would make developing affordable, reliable, truly fuel efficient cars a priority.

 

*Earmarked is not a four letter word. :) In our household budget we have earmarks for our expenses, and I don't think it's wrong for governments to do the same.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Not for anything, but you have no idea what it's like where Lisbeth lives. Perhaps she lives in very dangerous area.

 

Hey, I don't carry a gun and I find it disconcerting when I'm in a place where people are allowed to do so, but that doesn't mean I'm going to judge someone without having the slightest clue about where and how she lives. Maybe public transportation is very unsafe where she lives, and she feels safer in her car.

 

A fair point.  I have a trigger reaction to the whole fear+gun = freedom thing, which is admittedly colored by my little liberal corner of the northeast.

[Mrs Mungo]

They'll have to live in my bubble since we won't be able to drive our large van anywhere.

 

Yes, exactly, that is the point. Everything you want or need will mostly need to be in your bubble; that is the point. It doesn't matter what *anyone* "wants." Oil is a non-renewable resource. At some point it *will* be too scarce/expensive to use as we currently use it. We need to find alternative lifestyles *and* alternative fuels. Like others have said, we're looking at the long-long term, not just which events that will be likely within our lifetimes.

 

it would be difficult for sure. my husband works very close, so it wouldn't impact his commute necessarily.  however, we live in a very small town and do a lot of our shopping in nearby towns (that offer more than the family dollar and dollar general, lol) so even walmart is a big trip here.  that would affect our gas budget for sure. my parents live 6 hours away & visiting them would become much more costly!!

 

Which is why many current life styles are unsustainable. My MIL lives in a tiny town of around 500 people. Her ex lives in the town next door, about the same sized. There's another town with a few more people nearby. When they were kids, the towns each had a mercantile, a soda shop, a mechanic shop, a seed & feed store. The largest of the towns had a post office, a bakery and a movie theater. Now? The towns share a Wal-Mart with a McDonald's in it. The largest town has a local grocery store, a liquor store and a Sonic. So, yes, she drives 20 miles or whatever to the local grocery store or Wal-Mart. This change happened within my dh's parents' life times. If oil becomes too expensive/scarce for people to drive 20 minutes to Wal-Mart, then the change will swing back the other direction. That's the nature of supply and demand.

 

I'm not opposed to an efficient, expanded mass transit system at all, but since I live near a city with a high crime rate and in an area with a meth and heroin problem, I want assurance that it will be safe for not just riders, but also the residents and businesses nearby. Because this is such a fragmented area, with several independent municipalities with varying degrees of police coverage and local government systems in two states, this problem isn't just going to be solved with a transportation tax. You'd need to restructure the entire metro area.

 

I agree. Metro areas *will* eventually be restructured because we all *know* that our current system is unsustainable in the long term.

 

I agree whole-heartedly especially with the bolded. But history shows us that they have that power because we gave it to them. History shows us that we can take it back. It's just very "costly" in terms of life, in terms of sacrifice. It's a difficult....extremely difficult...thing to even think about. We're all mothers here (except those of us who are fathers) and we all know what we're usually talking about when we talk about "sacrifice."

But, Americans took back some of that power before without an extremely bloody civil war, but it was certainly revolutionary. They took it back through political power. People fought to end child labor with economic and political power. People died to give us an 8 hour work day, worker protections and reasonable pay. Laws were enacted to end monopolies and level the playing field between the workers and the robber barons. Now? They are touted as heroes of industry in the media systems *that they own*. Laws protecting workers have been removed because they were decried as "socialist." These things are cyclical and they have happened more than once in the last hundred years. The pendulum is swinging back and forth ever faster now. There were nearly 90 years between the beginnings of bread and butter unionism and Karen Silkwood's death (you are from Oklahoma, right? I was thinking you were, that's why I mentioned Karen Silkwood specifically, I think most people from Oklahoma know her story?). Now, we've mostly thrown that work away. And it will start over.

[Catwoman]

A fair point. I have a trigger reaction to the whole fear+gun = freedom thing, which is admittedly colored by my little liberal corner of the northeast.

I know exactly what you mean. I live in that same liberal corner! :)

 

It has taken me a while to realize how different things are in other parts of the country.

[poppy]

I have no interest in public transportation. I like the safety of my own vehicle. With my own vehicle I can have my gun too, as an extension of my CCW rights. On public transport, it would probably be gun free for the law abiding. Thug field day.

 

I prefer driving in my safe suburb over walking around a city and having to worry about the knockout game or other crime. People left cities for rational reasons.

 

I find it amusing that some of the wealthiest people I know want higher gas prices too...they want easier commutes/emptier streets for their convenience. I disagree w them, too. The higher gas price thing, like the obamacare thing, will only end up hurting the poor.

 

I find your whole post amusing.  Everything you said is pretty much false.  Your vehicle is much less safe than public transport from every statistical perspective.    You "feel" safer with your gun, good for you, show me any info about thugs ruining public transportation? I rode a bus daily for many years in one city, and a commuter rail daily for many more years in another.  The worst thing I ever saw was a drunk person being annoying.  At 2 a.m. after a sports game.   Also, I like millions and millions of other people walk around the city without cringing in fear of the  knockout game. It's an urban legand, my friend. I do like the twist ending where this is all a conspiracy so that the environmentalists will have shorter commutes.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Faith, I'm sorry to hear about your dd. I pray you receive encouraging news soon.

[poppy]

Not for anything, but you have no idea what it's like where Lisbeth lives. Perhaps she lives in very dangerous area.

 

Hey, I don't carry a gun and I find it disconcerting when I'm in a place where people are allowed to do so, but that doesn't mean I'm going to judge someone without having the slightest clue about where and how she lives. Maybe public transportation is very unsafe where she lives, and she feels safer in her car.

 

 There are certainly places I'd want to be armed in my car against lawless thugs.  But I am going to guess she lives in the US since this thread is about US gas prices.  I sincerely do not know of any place in the US with "very unsafe" public transportation. And of course, the whole idea of lowering subsidies for oil production is to invest in public transport - making it safer. 

 

I live in Boston, literally tens of thousands of people take the rail in daily. People in business suits whose biggest fear is someone spilling coffee on them. That probably colors my perspective. But I'm willing to bet my experience with public transport is much more grounded in reality than someone who fears to walk around on a city sidewalk.

[Crimson Wife]

I lived for five years in a moderate-sized city with extensive public transportation, and I don't recall ever once hearing about a crime being committed on a bus.  Something about being in close proximity to twenty witnesses seems to discourage that.  But there were plenty of stories of people driving alone being assaulted or carjacked.

Crime is rampant on MUNI (S.F. bus system) and BART (light rail). Having a bus full of witnesses didn't prevent this recent murder: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/09/27/man-accused-of-killing-sfsu-student-was-hunting-for-victim-da-says/

[momto10blessings]

Also, I like millions and millions of other people walk around the city without cringing in fear of the knockout game. It's an urban legand, my friend. I do like the twist ending where this is all a conspiracy so that the environmentalists will have shorter commutes.

You're saying the knockout game is an urban legend?

[Word Nerd]

For the people saying that they are are too remote to benefit from mass transit, OK. Even in countries with wonderful mass transit systems, there are outliers. 

 

I think you underestimate how many and how vast the rural areas are here in middle America. Not having access to mass transit is more the norm here than the exception. 

[Crimson Wife]

Violent crime has nearly doubled [on BART] over the past five years. There were 76 aggravated assaults in the past two years, more than over the preceding 10 years combined.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/bart-crime-in-san-francisco-increases/Content?oid=2530086

 

My DH is ex-military and so I don't really worry about his safety while riding BART. But as a petite woman I won't go on it except during broad daylight and there are certain stations I avoid completely for safety reasons.

[Crimson Wife]

You're saying the knockout game is an urban legend?

That seems to be the meme going around the liberal blogosphere and certain media outlets. So if that's where you get your news from, that's going to be your perception.