Rant - school groups at museums

[RoundAbout]

Aargh! Pretty much every time we go to museums on a weekday we encounter horrific school groups. The kids act like a bunch of crazed monkeys let loose from their cage and tear through exhibits randomly pushing buttons, yelling, and making obnoxious comments about how something is freaky or gross. Occasionally you'll see a parent chaperone who has managed to take a group of 3 or 4 kids away from the hubbub to learn, but its rare.

 

It was a holiday, so I thought we'd be spared that today while visiting a big city science museum. No luck. At one point my husband had to say something because the kids were literally shoving us as they tried to race through a narrow exhibit. They were running laps and treating it as a playground. We've been traveling across the country and this phenomenon is not confined to one particular city or museum.

 

Anyone want to JAWM? Give me hope? Give tips for avoiding?

[MomatHWTK]

Go in the mid to late afternoon, most school groups have to leave by 1 or 2 p.m. to make it back in time to catch the school bus. 

[FriedClams]

We shoot for after 1 at museums. Usually the crowds (and yes, I've seen some unruly school groups) are gone by then. I like visiting museums wih the over 60 crowd. :-)

[MrsBasil]

Yep, we try to hit museums and aquariums in the afternoon whenever possible. 

 

 

[Χά�ων]

Yep. I have complained to museum staff about the behavior of the students. On one occasion when my son was 7 we ran into a middle school group that was not at a museum or zoo (field trips here are not educational until high school) and I caught a child punching my son. Facility management did nothing. I called the school and gave them an ear full. 

 

I have debated taking video of the destruction and sending the video to the school administration. I probably will if I encounter it again.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

OMRTHS

[OneStepAtATime]

Not just at museums, either.  I was at a restaurant with my children for lunch and there was a reunion of some retired electricians and their families happening there so the restaurant (buffet style) was fairly crowded.  Even though it WAS pretty crowded, everyone was taking turns in line for the various foods and we were all very polite, the restaurant was pretty quiet and things were quite pleasant...until 2 busloads of middle schoolers arrived.  The kids kept cutting in line, pushing people out of the way, grabbing and reaching over people, yelling at each other, throwing stuff at each other...it was awful.  My kids and I had finished our main meal and had gotten in line for some fruit.  There was a retired couple in front of us.  The husband was obviously in poor health and had to walk relatively slowly.  Two students barged in front of him in the line, then giggled about successfully cutting in front of the couple.  They then let several more kids cut in front of them.  Those kids let even more cut in front of them (and all of the rest of us behind them).  Finally, a TEACHER cut in with the other kids and was laughing at not having to stand in a long line.  I was sick.  I tried to say something to the teacher but my kids were embarrassed and felt unsafe.  They begged to leave.  I regret not finding out what school they came from and calling in a complaint.

 

I know this is not the behavior of every school or every child, but it does seem to be more and more the norm.  Thankfully, we did not have this when my kids were in a brick and mortar school.  When my kids were still in school, they went to a pretty small school that had fairly high standards for conduct.  Every field trip we took, behavior was discussed days ahead of time, notes went home to parents warning that poor conduct would mean the child would not be allowed to participate, etc.  Behavior was also discussed the day of the trip and parent volunteers were also told what was and was not allowed so they could help police the kids.  One year an entire class had a big field trip cancelled because they behaved poorly at another field trip earlier in the year...and their behavior wasn't even half as bad as the kids at that restaurant, and they were elementary age, not Middle Schoolers.

[school17777]

I know what you mean!  I planned a trip to our science center the day before Thanksgiving last year as my kids were out of school, I figured the other schools would be too.  We got there early, but it was packed with elementary students.  We couldn't do much at all.  We went out for lunch and thought we'd come back to an empty museum.  No such luck - it was then packed with middle schoolers.  If I hadn't had passes to use, I would have wanted my money back.

[WTMCassandra]

I plot and do whatever it takes to avoid school groups as much as possible. I also recommend on going after lunch, if possible. I HATE HATE HATE noisy school groups.  Blech!

[Farrar]

Art museums are nearly always safe. :)

 

Really, the worst places are science centers and other "hands on" museums.  We don't really have one here, so we're lucky.  In the spring, it's wall to wall 8th graders on DC trips, but there's almost always a wing where you can retreat away from them.

[Jackie]

Our local children's science center posts on their Facebook page when they're going to have large groups coming (specifically so people can avoid them) and encourages individuals to generally come in the afternoon to avoid school groups. Unfortunately, they schedule preschool Discovery Time during a high-traffic time, so I'm still stuck.

[LibraryLover]

Go after lunch. School kids have to be on the bus and back to school in time for dismissal.

 

Of course, depending on where you live, this means you might encounter homeschool groups, which are as bad,  or worse, ime.  lol

[Alice]

I agree with the mid-afternoon, most people are clearing out then. I’ve also found September and January to have less school groups because they are just starting school or just returning after the holidays. 

 

Even when the groups aren’t wild, it’s just nicer to go when it isn’t so crowded. 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Art museums are nearly always safe.

Not the Met! Mob scene, but still awesome.

[Kerileanne99]

Oh wow, I am seriously depressed now!

I thought it was just my luck and the age of my young kiddo.

We live near a hands-on museum, a zoo, and a huge park. We try to go to all of them every week, and the school groups are dreadful. It becomes pointless to be there. I actually have no idea WHY they go a there is no learning whatsoever happening!

It has gotten to the point where we question a few memberships. And the last two weeks in a row I have packed a picnic lunch to eat in the park after our weekly story time/library morning...only to be forced out of a PUBLIC PARK/PLAYGROUND due to unruly middle-schoolers. Pushing, shoving, shouting, swearing, being obnoxious. Even standing on the toddler swings to swing. My kiddo was in tears. And the adults are rarely involved except to look on or shout occasional instructions. One teacher looked over and just said they would be leaving soon...but there always seems to be another herd waiting to descend!

[Farrar]

Not the Met! Mob scene, but still awesome.

 

Ah, that's true.  Here in DC there are so many of them and except for special exhibits at the NGA, they're almost always empty.  I remember once taking refuge in African Art at the height of the summer, like literally during Folk Life, and sitting in a gallery where we saw like two other people over the course of half an hour.

 

But it's also that school groups are less wild in art museums.  There's a hush.  So even a wild group isn't completely crazy.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

But it's also that school groups are less wild in art museums. There's a hush. So even a wild group isn't completely crazy.

True, once you get the horde spread out in a gallery.

[Kuovonne]

I'm ashamed to say that it was the homeschoolers of Sydney who got banned from the museum for a year!

Eek! I am a chaperone for our homeschool group's museum visit tomorrow.

So far we haven't been banned, but our co-ordinator has been really worried a couple of times.

[Farrar]

Our school kids are so much nicer. I honestly don't recognise these hordes of which everyone speaks. I mean, sure, they look like hordes because there's so many of them, but they're just kids.

With energy.

 

I feel sorry for the schoolies. They have to do worksheets and listen to the teacher. And carry their lunch around in a plastic bag. And not get to go to the museum shop after.

 

But yeah. Idk. Maybe schools here leave the really bad kids back on campus or something.

 

Yeah, I agree.  I find the school groups annoying because I want my museums empty, but even when they're being "wild" they usually aren't that wild.  I don't really blame them for their wildness because of what you're saying - they've been cooped up and then released without good guidance and/or they have a dopey scavenger hunt to fill out.

 

When I was teaching, we did leave kids back at school if they were terrible on field trips.

[mumto2]

School groups are the worst. I complained about one to management -- a 7 year old kept kicking us, the chaperon saw and did nothing. I was told they would not be welcome again. To be fair she was a terror the rest of the group simply boisterous but the adult should have done something other then watch from a safe distance on several occasions. I wanted my money back (£35) or a free pass to come again and be able to look without being kicked. The terror had radar and followed us....no refund. Still wonder if they really are no longer welcome. Won't go there ever again.

[Crimson Wife]

It's been my observation that private and charter school groups are generally decently behaved. Knowing that one can get kicked out of the school for poor behavior seems to be an effective motivator.

[AimeeM]

It's been my observation that private and charter school groups are generally decently behaved. Knowing that one can get kicked out of the school for poor behavior seems to be an effective motivator.

Bingo.

At dd's school, behaviour like that would earn a child several consecutive days of "picking up rocks"... and quite possibly some other form of labor. Headmaster doesn't play.

[AimeeM]

I don't think that's a fair generalisation. Not sure how it works in the US but here, a badly behaving or 'challenging' child can be expelled and the poor public school has to make do with all the kids the private school kicked out because they CAN'T expel.

 

I'm not into the ps hate, even though we homeschool. Some of the nicest kids I know go to ps and some of the brattiest h/s. This is one particular generalisation that riles me.

 

I wasn't trying to generalize, personally. I too know many fantastic public school children. Here, a lot of it has more to do with the much smaller classes = better "conrol" for the teacher in a private school setting -vs- a public school setting. For example, there are only 5 children in my dd's class, compared to the 30 in her grade level classes at the local public school.

[AimeeM]

I notice that a lot of the rowdier school groups I see out and about are from areas that are NESB and low socio/economic backgrounds. Some of the kids won't ever have been to hear an orchestra/visit an exhibition/participate at a museum before.

 

So often I just grit my teeth at behaviour that isn't 'expected' behaviour and recognise that these kids are just beginning to learn the rules of our cultural institutions.

 

What's the alternative ? We keep them in their ghettoes ?

 

My kids have the advantage of having been in museums since they were babies. Some of the ps kids don't. I'm just glad they are getting the opportunity to participate in and learn about their cultural institutions, even if it is late in the piece.

 

I mean, I get that it's annoying. It's just, hey, lots of things in life are annoying! Show grace, move along...maybe one or two of those rowdy kids will get it, and grow up to bring their kids to the museum and teach them about how to behave there and help their families access this particular kind of culture. That would be nice :)

 

If it were just an annoyance factor, I'd be with you - but a lot of what is being described here is dangerous behaviour... punching, pushing, climbing, running outside of the supervised group, etc. I'll ignore being annoyed; I won't ignore my child being hit or shoved around (or another child doing something that could cause them to hurt themselves).

 

[AimeeM]

Yep. So the 'good behavior' you are seeing is a result of being lucky enough to have a 5:1 ratio.

 

Look, I get annoyed too. I just think it's a little offensive to be sharing tips on how to avoid public school students.

 

I agree with you that dangerous behavior is of another order, but even in a group of PS kids, very few of them are going to be actively harming others, so why tar them all with the same 'avoid at all costs' brush ?

 

Some of it may be better behaviour, but as you pointed out - this could have a lot to do with socio economic variables and exposure. I didn't mean to say that it was only because they had a better ratio, lol.

I'll disagree that large groups of school children do not often harm others at these places (or put themselves in the position to be harmed). They do - it may just be by default of minimal previous exposure to the event, to excitement, etc. I'll agree that it is almost never malicious - but the "why" doesn't detract from that it is happening, frequently, and I do not want my children harmed in the process, no matter the reason.

[Crimson Wife]

I notice that a lot of the rowdier school groups I see out and about are from areas that are NESB and low socio/economic backgrounds.

Except that I have seen well-behaved charter school groups that are predominantly "disadvataged" minority kids and rowdy affluent-appearing predominantly white PS kids. I don't think it is about race/ethnicity or SES at all but rather about having strict discipline policies.

[RoundAbout]

Look, I get annoyed too. I just think it's a little offensive to be sharing tips on how to avoid public school students.

 

It cost my family of 3 almost $100 to visit the museum this weekend including gas, parking, admission, and lunch. Since we live on the other side of the country, this might be the only opportunity to visit this museum during my son's childhood. I don't think there is anything offensive about wanting to get some tips to maximize our chances for learning, especially when shelling out big bucks for something special. One of the reasons we homeschool is to optimize our time. Lots of people try to avoid crowds when grocery shopping, planning vacations, etc. School groups are the main source of crowding at museums during a fall weekday, and they seem pretty disruptive IMHO.

 

I don't blame the kids one bit, and I'm glad they get these field trips, but most of the chaperones and teachers seem really checked out and make no effort to engage them in learning, let alone enforce standards of behavior. The suggestions to come after 1 pm or certain months of the year so we can have more time with exhibits and less distraction ( or in this case shoving) was helpful.

[Melissa in Australia]

I'm ashamed to say that it was the homeschoolers of Sydney who got banned from the museum for a year!

 

School groups here are under the thumb. It was the homeschoolers who were being wild.

 

I hasten to add, I was not there and nor were my children!

 

 I have been on a homeschool group event to a artsy mini golf that was not opened to the general public. Some of the homeschoolers were climbing over the exhibits, some exhibits got broken, some were destroyed. My DH and I were so disgusted that we went and gave the poor artist some money for damages my children didn't do and we left. Where were the mothers of the vandals? sitting under a tree talking about how marvelous there darlings were and how the artist must be so impressed with the behavior of their angles, not like regular schooled kids at all..

[Χά�ων]

Yep. So the 'good behavior' you are seeing is a result of being lucky enough to have a 5:1 ratio.

 

Look, I get annoyed too. I just think it's a little offensive to be sharing tips on how to avoid public school students.

 

I agree with you that dangerous behavior is of another order, but even in a group of PS kids, very few of them are going to be actively harming others, so why tar them all with the same 'avoid at all costs' brush ?

I do not always avoid. I am actually attempting to nail down a high school field trip to a museum because DS wants to learn more about the exhibits and get the tour. We were able to tag along on part of the tour but had to leave part way through. Since they require a minimum number of participants that I can not gather I am actively trying to time our visit with that of a high school group. DS is young but this is his area of interest and he can handle the more detailed information given to the high school and adult groups and would be bored and distracted with a group of kids his age. I do not always avoid. I actually enjoy some groups. It is the insane free for all groups where the schools takes the kids someplace that is not educational (what is up with that?) and the kids are allowed to explore on their own where problems arise.

 

On the flip side I have learned the hard way that I have to be very careful if DS is listening in on a school group tour. Once we stopped at a small outdoor museum while on a road trip, my asthma was horrible and I was barely able to make it through one time. DS wanted to go through again and since I could see the entire thing from the car I let DS go through a second time. While he was going through a volunteer parent from a school group saw him and was convinced he was one of the kids in the group. She wouldn't let him leave. He finally managed to make a break for it and run to the car. He was not happy. I wish I could have avoided the group. DS was not happy about not being able to go at his own pace.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Last year we went to the science museum as part of a homeschool group. (Our "group" was really one mom organizing the MUCH lower school rate for us one day and hen we could show up and leave whenever we wanted. I didn't know or even talk to anyone else there.) There was also a PS middle school group there (easily identified by their uniforms).

The homeschooled kids were awesome! They were calm and fairly quiet as they explored the exhibits. The older ones let younger kids try stuff first, gave the little ones a boost to help them see things, and were eager to share some exciting discovery with other kids. I was so impressed with this as mine were all 8 and younger.

The PS kids were pretty....active. It didn't bother me that they were a bit loud and wild. They are, after all, forced to walk in lines and sit in desks most of the time and this was probably a welcome bit of freedom. I was a bit annoyed that they kept pushing my kids out of the way to see/try things though. Mostly I just felt sorry for them. They had these dumb scavenger hunt things they were trying to fill out and teachers yelling at them that was time to move on to the next exhibit. They had such a short time to find the required answers and it didn't seem that many of those involved the really fun stuff.

I was glad that my kids had the freedom to fully explore the things that interested them, skip the things that didn't, and ask questions of the guides. I ended up feeling sorry for the middle school kids though. They were at a perfect age to get so much out of that awesome museum but instead it looked like a massive rush to fill in the blanks and get back on the bus.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In any venue, if I see people who are vandalizing exhibits or acting in a way that is over the top obnoxious, I report it to the staff and let them handle it.  This hasn't happened often, but it has happened a few times in the 50 years I've been on this planet.  I've had staff members thank me for reporting it because sometimes having a patron complain is the excuse they need to step in, according to policy.  

[KrissiK]

We try to go to the zoo when I have a good feeling there won't be other schools there. It's not so much the bad behavior, it's just tht it's so crowded and my kids kind of get shoved aside by the school groups at the exhibits. However, I had one sad experience last month. I think it was actually an after school daycare; the kids looked like middle to upper elementary aged. They were perfectly behaved. And they were in line and were marched around the zoo. I saw them first when we were at the sea lion exhibit. My kids had been there a few minutes and were watching the sea lions swim around. It's a new and very nice exhibit. Then this group comes by, probably 30 or so kids, they had exactly 10 seconds at the exhibit and then they moved on. I timed them. They didn't seem very interested in the exhibit, which made sense because they've obviously been rushed around the zoo and weren't allowed to be interested in anything. I never had a lot of use for school field trips as a kid, except that my mom always packed me a soda and a Twinkie and I never got those on regular days. And I don't have a lot of use for them as an adult looking on, either.

[RoundAbout]

The one homeschool museum program we participated in the kids (5-13) were all awesomely behaved and engaged. The docent was floored and said he had never had such a positive experience with kids in a group. I don't attribute this to any kind of homeschool magic, but just to the fact that all of the kids and parents were there by choice. The kids who weren't interested or couldn't handle it stayed home. It probably also helped that most of the kids didn't know each other so there wasn't a lot of chit-chat. My son was the youngest and I gave him a huge lecture before going in about behavior and expectations, and how this would determine future opportunities. My son seems to be one who tunes into the behavior around him, so its quite possible he would be rowdy in a typical school group. I don't in any way think it's the kids' fault.

[Crimson Wife]

It's just not OK to stereotype children who attend public school and seek to avoid ONLY children who attend public school. (I know that's not what you were saying either! )

You were the one stereotyping by race/ethnicity and SES. I'm saying from what I've observed at museums in my neck of the woods (we are fortunate to have a lot of good ones), the rowdiness has little to do with race/ethnicity or SES and everything to do with type of school attended- the kids in uniforms bearing the name of a private or charter school tend to be well-behaved regardless of demographic factors.

[Embassy]

I prefer going places during school hours because it is less crowded than the weekend.  School groups tend to stick together so I can head in another less crowded direction first.  On the weekend it is crowded everywhere.

[RoundAbout]

Asking people to JAWM that public schoolers are awful is what bothers me about this thread.

Just wanted to make a point that as the OP I never specified *public* schoolers in particular. In point of fact these kids had on uniforms and were doing this on a federal holiday, so my first impression was actually "private school." My invitation was also not to JAWM but to share positive experiences as well, which is what I meant by "give me hope." I'm perfectly aware that my "inner little old lady" might have unreasonable expectations.

 

We will have to agree to disagree but I do think the fact that these are school groups are relevant. I've also visited museums and zoos and aquariums on weekend when places are literally packed with kids and their parents and while definitely noisy I am seldom shoved or knocked out of the way. Considering field trips are supposed to be educational, I'm surprised there is not more discussion or education or engagement with these school kids even when the behavior is good.

 

In contrast we found ourselves on a archaeology tour last week with a group of mentally handicapped teens/young adults and they were *awesome*. They were polite and attentive and actually asked some great questions. So no, I don't feel like we're seeking to isolate ourselves from public schoolers, but this was a particularly frustrating experience.

[Dmmetler]

Actually, school groups tend to be well behaved. Field trips are rare for PS around here, and most private schools have about the same adult-child ratio HS groups do because they often are carpooling to get there.

 

I do notice School groups around here tend to look neater than HS groups, because school groups tend to either have uniforms (even PS here wear uniform colors) or matching field trip shirts (preschools and camps). It's the HS kids who show up wearing superhero T-shirts and pajama bottoms (glaring at DD, who wore exactly that to co-op this morning...)

[Julie Smith]

 

I swear I think some homeschoolers would enjoy being segregated full time from public schoolers!

 

I admit, that for the most part I would happily be segregated from large groups. Be them, children, adults, homeschoolers, seniors, ... 

 

*Note I am not stated what a large group is, it depends a lot on the size of space and activity. 

[unfrumpable.]

I will admit that I cringe when I go somewhere and there are lots of school buses. I did that even before I had a kid! I just don't like crowds and will avoid them if possible. That's why I normally only go to Disney off-season. We went a couple of years ago for a one day trip during the summer season and it was hell. We figured one day wouldn't be too bad. It was. Oh my.

 

But yeah, most school groups move along fairly quickly, so it's easy to get back to whatever exhibit we were looking at. We did the Houston Rock and Mineral show last week on Friday. It was kid's day, so you know what that meant! There were lots of school groups there, public and private. It was crowded, but it was also fairly easy to avoid the crowds. We just did other things while waiting for certain areas to clear out. I didn't see any obnoxious behavior and all the kids had a clipboard and papers to do a scavenger hunt of some sort, so it was educational too. I don't know where they got that because I couldn't find it just lying around and was interested enough to actually ask. :)

[wunderlong88]

Definitely go in the afternoon to avoid big groups from schools

[KrissiK]

I wouldn't necessarily blame the kids or the fact that they are public schooled. I've worked at 2 private schools in the past and both schools took the 8th graders on a trip to Washington DC. I never went on the trip at the first school I taught at,, but I heard so many good reports about that trip and the behaviour of the kids because the organizer expected good behaviour, taught good behaviour and enforced good behaviour. I went as a chaperone at the second school and the trip was a nightmare. I wouldn't say the kids were horrible, but they acted like a bunch of junior highers not particularly interested in the Smithsonians, if you know what I mean. I don't think the kids were prepped regarding expectations of their behaviour, and there were no consequences for poor behaviour. Plus, at the first school, the kids were required to make a scrapbook of their trip and turn it in for a grade, so they had to pay attention and be engaged in the trip. The other school took the trip right at the end of school, so there was no accountability. I think kids are kids, but expectations of behaviour (and thus their behaviour) come from those in charge of them.