Thoughts on marriage and divorce??

[DawnM]

Now, thinking of relatives.......

 

One cousin told me her husband over over 40 years has been cheating on her for over 30 of those.  She had no idea.  They are now separated.

Another cousin married rather quickly (she was preg.) and it has gone horribly wrong from day one.  They are now divorcing.

 

MOST divorces I know say there was something before marriage that sent red flags, but they were unwilling to see them at the time, even when others showed concern.

[FaithManor]

I don't think anyone feels good when their spouse tells them they know they are unhappy, they understand what needs to be done, they could do it, but no, they are not going to. It adds insult to injury when they say yes, they expect you to put up with it forever.

 

There's no negotiation to be done there.

Yes, and the brutal reality of expecting someone to live with such callousness is harsh. That's why I try to be supportive. What is a person supposed to do when the other is such a selfish twerp? I've decided that it's not up to me to tell someone else how much misery they must endure.

 

My mother in law endured a lot...way too much. it took a toll on her health; it caused a break down at one point. In terms of Christianity and interpretations of scripture, I do agree with Joanne. I think God actually hates the actions that lead to the total breakdown of the relationship and in many cases, victimizes the other person.

[Murphy101]

I don't think anyone feels good when their spouse tells them they know they are unhappy, they understand what needs to be done, they could do it, but no, they are not going to. It adds insult to injury when they say yes, they expect you to put up with it forever.

 

There's no negotiation to be done there.

Hmm. But.... Doesn't that presume the opposing as well? I don't think anyone feels good when their spouse tells them they need to do X to make them happy even though they don't want to and never have and yes, keep doing it forever in hopes s/he stays content with it or get divorced.

 

I think when there is not abuse, a couple is obligated to be kind to each other and work on changing themselves rather than either other.

 

I'm not picking on you and don't even want details of your situation. I'm simply thinking out loud and ruminating upon all the many couples who we know didn't make it to 20 years. :)

[Free]

Hmm. But.... Doesn't that presume the opposing as well? I don't think anyone feels good when their spouse tells them they need to do X to make them happy even though they don't want to and never have and yes, keep doing it forever in hopes s/he stays content with it or get divorced.

 

I think when there is not abuse, a couple is obligated to be kind to each other and work on changing themselves rather than either other.

 

I'm not picking on you and don't even want details of your situation. I'm simply thinking out loud and ruminating upon all the many couples who we know didn't make it to 20 years. :)

 

Yes, people are definitely responsible for working on their own happiness, and for some people this may mean that they choose divorce when they realize that their ideas of friendship and partnership in a marriage differs from those of their spouse.

Sometimes two people are headed in different directions and want different things from life. It should be OK to acknowledge that and be happy apart rather than be miserable together.

[Rosie_0801]

Hmm. But.... Doesn't that presume the opposing as well? I don't think anyone feels good when their spouse tells them they need to do X to make them happy even though they don't want to and never have and yes, keep doing it forever in hopes s/he stays content with it or get divorced.

 

I think when there is not abuse, a couple is obligated to be kind to each other and work on changing themselves rather than either other.

 

I'm not picking on you and don't even want details of your situation. I'm simply thinking out loud and ruminating upon all the many couples who we know didn't make it to 20 years. :)

 

No, no one likes that either, but that doesn't mean the request is unreasonable. It may or may not be. It sure isn't nice to tell your spouse that you are going to continue doing something that is hurting them dreadfully, and if they show any displeasure, they are the unreasonable one.

 

For example: "I know I am denying you one of the basic necessities of life, but I'm not going to change and I'm fed up of you being cross about it and I expect a pleasant face from you in the future."   Maybe some people could be ok with that, but I would think it would cross most people's lines of acceptable behaviour.

  

 

Abuse is an interesting word. It seems to me sometimes that people don't think it counts unless it is motivated by malice.

[Murphy101]

Yes, people are definitely responsible for working on their own happiness, and for some people this may mean that they choose divorce when they realize that their ideas of friendship and partnership in a marriage differs from those of their spouse.

 

Sometimes two people are headed in different directions and want different things from life. It should be OK to acknowledge that and be happy apart rather than be miserable together.

Hmm. Or? One could decide to accept them and love them as they are and not be miserable about it? Not easy, not that either is easy, but that should be okay too, yes?

[Dandelion]

My first marriage ended in divorce after nearly 11 years.  My biggest mistake was not doing it after year 1.  Honestly.  I knew then it was doomed but I thought that if I just stuck with the "divorce is not an option" mantra that everything would work itself out.  

 

I've never been so lonely in my life as I was during most of my first marriage, and I flat out refuse to ever allow myself to be that way again.  If that's how I feel with my husband, or he with me, and we give it our best effort, and it just isn't working, we'll be done.  

 

This pretty much sums up my first marriage and feelings on the topic.  We (my ex and I) had no business getting married.  Even the pastor we went to for counseling when things started falling apart said we never should have gotten married. I was up sick all night the night we got engaged.  I blamed it on food poisoning, but I knew better.  I knew it was a mistake from the start, and it was.  Big, hard-won lesson on the importance of listening to my gut.   <_<

 

Thankfully, we were only married for four years, and we had no kids.  It was hard enough figuring out who would get the sweet dog we had adopted together.  

 

Before going through a terrible marriage and divorce myself, I had a completely different perspective.  Going through this process really opened my eyes, and I'm happy to say that DH and I (now married 12 years) have a great marriage and a much better handle on things.   

[Murphy101]

No, no one likes that either, but that doesn't mean the request is unreasonable. It may or may not be. It sure isn't nice to tell your spouse that you are going to continue doing something that is hurting them dreadfully, and if they show any displeasure, they are the unreasonable one.

 

For example: "I know I am denying you one of the basic necessities of life, but I'm not going to change and I'm fed up of you being cross about it and I expect a pleasant face from you in the future." Maybe some people could be ok with that, but I would think it would cross most people's lines of acceptable behaviour.

 

 

Abuse is an interesting word. It seems to me sometimes that people don't think it counts unless it is motivated by malice.

I don't think abuse has to be motivated by malice. In fact, I think the worst abuse is motivated by forcing a perceived betterment on another.

 

Basic necessity of life? Good heavens. I don't know anyone that is being deprived life necessities is expected to endure with a smile. Even if they did endure with a smile it still wouldn't be okay to deny them life necessities. :(

[gardenmom5]

); B) mutual decision; and c) practical thinking. You can get a long way just by deciding to, if your mate decides to as well. 

 

ETA: Ooooh, weird. I wasn't trying to put in sunglasses smiley! That was supposed to be "b". 

yeah. you have to put something between the 'b' and the ')' or you get b)  I learned that by doing it unintentionally a few times.

 

   I do think those divorces could have been amicable and much easier on the children if the adults had acted like adults, but that wasn't the case.  

in very few marriages that end in divorce could both parties be called "adult".  usually at least one is acting childish.  (and in a fair number I've seen - both parties were childish to varying degrees.  I swear - neither my brother nor his ex could be described as "adult".)

 

 

 

 

MOST divorces I know say there was something before marriage that sent red flags, but they were unwilling to see them at the time, even when others showed concern.

there have been studies that have found the same thing. people ignored flags.  dh attempted to counsel one woman into NOT remarrying her ex.  he kept pointing out "you can't trust him".  (no dear, love is NOT enough.)  she divorced him again.

 

I know a few marriages I saw the parties closely before the marriage.  the divorce was no surprise.  I've known couples during their marriages that something just seemed "off" in how they meshed as a couple.  the divorce was not really a surprise.  I've only been totally surprised by a couple divorcing - as in there was *nothing* I noticed previously to indicate something was off in the relationship - once.  (though she had been getting flakier and flakier and I was wondering what happened to her because I could have sworn she used to be more rational.  him - I've never seen looking better than after their divorce was final.)

[gardenmom5]

Abuse is an interesting word. It seems to me sometimes that people don't think it counts unless it is motivated by malice.

it seems to me, a lot of people also think it's only abuse if it is physical, and they completely discount mental or psychological abuse.

[Dory]

it seems to me, a lot of people also think it's only abuse if it is physical, and they completely discount mental or psychological abuse.

 

Psychological abuse can be hard to label sometimes though. Especially if you are in the middle of it.

[Joanne]

it seems to me, a lot of people also think it's only abuse if it is physical, and they completely discount mental or psychological abuse.

 

 

I once posted (on this board) a long list of non physical abuse, and "subtle" abuse behaviors.

 

It was met with at least one person who posted "it's scary what is considered abuse nowadays."

 

It is the above attitude that represents the reason I stayed in an untenable marriage for nearly 14 years. Understanding of power and control as abuse is lacking.

[Rosie_0801]

 In fact, I think the worst abuse is motivated by forcing a perceived betterment on another.

 

I'd have to know why someone was trying to force such things.

 

 

There's a difference between trying to force your spouse to make more money because you want to lead a latte and pedicure lifestyle and trying to force him because he said that was his goal. You might say the latter isn't forcing so much as being encouraging, but it is only encouragement as long as that really is his goal. If he's changed his mind or didn't really mean it in the first place and hasn't updated his spouse, she's crossed the line from encouraging to being a shmuck without noticing or meaning to.

 

I currently think the worst problems are caused by a lack of intra-personal intelligence.

 

I may have another opinion once I've clocked up ten years in a second marriage.

[Free]

Hmm. Or? One could decide to accept them and love them as they are and not be miserable about it? Not easy, not that either is easy, but that should be okay too, yes?

 

It is definitely a choice to stay in marriage where you know that your needs will never be met and that you and your spouse will have fundamental differences in the way you want to experience life. I know of many couples who have made this choice and I am sure there are millions of men and women all over the world who live like this.

 

But I don't see this as the ONLY valid choice. I don't believe that it should be imperative that everybody live like this. It should be perfectly OK for people to to have higher expectations from marriage and to not choose to live what is essentially a constrictive life.

[Murphy101]

I once posted (on this board) a long list of non physical abuse, and "subtle" abuse behaviors.

 

It was met with at least one person who posted "it's scary what is considered abuse nowadays."

 

It is the above attitude that represents the reason I stayed in an untenable marriage for nearly 14 years. Understanding of power and control as abuse is lacking.

I wasn't the one who said it, tho I remember that thread bc it was one of the rare ones where you and I agreed on a topic. :)

 

But I agree people bandy about the word "abuse" way too freely in my opinion.

[Joanne]

It is definitely a choice to stay in marriage where you know that your needs will never be met and that you and your spouse will have fundamental differences in the way you want to experience life. I know of many couples who have made this choice and I am sure there are millions of men and women all over the world who live like this.

 

But I don't see this as the ONLY valid choice. I don't believe that it should be imperative that everybody live like this. It should be perfectly OK for people to to have higher expectations from marriage and to not choose to live what is essentially a constrictive life.

 

 

Re: the bold

 

I did this in my second marriage after his illness. (Until deal breakers emerged) Had it not been for the deal breakers, I would have stayed in a utilitarian arrangement.

[Mothersweets]

I don't think abuse has to be motivated by malice. In fact, I think the worst abuse is motivated by forcing a perceived betterment on another.

 

 

So true.

[Joanne]

I wasn't the one who said it, tho I remember that thread bc it was one of the rare ones where you and I agreed on a topic. :)

 

But I agree people bandy about the word "abuse" way too freely in my opinion.

 

That's interesting that you remember and for that reason.

 

To be honest? I don't think we disagree that often or that vehemently. We have considerable common ground.

[Murphy101]

I'd have to know why someone was trying to force such things.

 

 

There's a difference between trying to force your spouse to make more money because you want to lead a latte and pedicure lifestyle and trying to force him because he said that was his goal. You might say the latter isn't forcing so much as being encouraging, but it is only encouragement as long as that really is his goal. If he's changed his mind or didn't really mean it in the first place and hasn't updated his spouse, she's crossed the line from encouraging to being a shmuck without noticing or meaning to.

 

I currently think the worst problems are caused by a lack of intra-personal intelligence.

I may have another opinion once I've clocked up ten years in a second marriage.

 

Of course. For example, my dh has been extremely supportive and encouraging about my doing whole30. But I know other couples where the spouse doesn't make it about being thrilled their spouse is getting happier and healthier. They dog them about how it's great they aren't hideously fat anymore or other such rot. I have tremendous confidence that I could eat like a hungry hungry hippo and get just as fat and my dh's only worry would be my health. He'd still be thrilled to crawl into bed naked with me or take me out on a date.

 

Genuine betterment is about more than self gratification, they really do care about the other person.

 

I have no idea at all what you mean by intrapersonal intelligence. I feel a bit stupid about that.

 

It is definitely a choice to stay in marriage where you know that your needs will never be met and that you and your spouse will have fundamental differences in the way you want to experience life. I know of many couples who have made this choice and I am sure there are millions of men and women all over the world who live like this.

 

But I don't see this as the ONLY valid choice. I don't believe that it should be imperative that everybody live like this. It should be perfectly OK for people to to have higher expectations from marriage and to not choose to live what is essentially a constrictive life.

What is constrictive about it? Not being snarky. I don't see it as necessarily constrictive. I see it as liberating to an extent.

 

I think everyone should have higher expectations of marriage. But real life - expectations = reality. And it doesn't necessarily have to be an awful reality.

[Rosie_0801]

I have no idea at all what you mean by intrapersonal intelligence. I feel a bit stupid about that.

 

 

Cut and pasted from here: http://psychology.about.com/od/educationalpsychology/ss/multiple-intell_8.htm

 

 

Strengths: Introspection and Self-Reflection

Individuals who are strong in intrapersonal intelligence are good at being aware of their own emotional states, feelings and motivations. They tend to enjoy self-reflection and analysis, including day-dreaming, exploring relationships with others and assessing their personal strengths.

Characteristics of Intrapersonal Intelligence

• Good at analyzing their strengths and weaknesses
• Enjoys analyzing theories and ideas
• Excellent self-awareness
• Clearly understands the basis for their own motivations and feelings

[gardenmom5]

Psychological abuse can be hard to label sometimes though. Especially if you are in the middle of it.

yeah - and it doesn't help when finally say "uh, this is wrong" and people you are talking to tell you to suck it up and you're imagining things.  I got that a lot.

I do have a vivid memory of a friend who is also a marriage and family therapist after I told him but a few tidbits. it was of pure shock, as he sputtered - but that's abuse.  (It wasn't a particularly "validating" moment for me - because I already fully saw the behavior as abusive and had confidence in my assessment of it.  but it was still nice to hear from him.)

eta: for posterity - I should probably add, my grandmother probably had a personality disorder, and was abusive.

 

I once posted (on this board) a long list of non physical abuse, and "subtle" abuse behaviors.

 

It was met with at least one person who posted "it's scary what is considered abuse nowadays."

 

It is the above attitude that represents the reason I stayed in an untenable marriage for nearly 14 years. Understanding of power and control as abuse is lacking.

I remember that thread. I really liked your list.  

[Free]

What is constrictive about it? Not being snarky. I don't see it as necessarily constrictive. I see it as liberating to an extent.

 

Do you not see how sharing your life with someone who does not have similar values and goals for life as you and who does not share your idea of intimacy and friendship can be constrictive? I fail to see how it can be anything but constrictive.

 

If we use your argument, we could pair just about any two people on earth and they should be able to be happy and fulfilled with each other. In reality though there is something to be said about compatible temperaments, shared values and vision for a shared life.

 

I think everyone should have higher expectations of marriage. But real life - expectations = reality. And it doesn't necessarily have to be an awful reality.

 

I am not really sure what you are advocating here. I do not dispute that many people are pretty content, maybe even happy in a marriage that fails to meet many of their needs. That does not mean everybody needs to settle for that, do they?

[saw]

Just my two cents ... but I would have stayed married had xdh been a good father to the dcs. If he had talked with them regularly, gone to their events, asked them questions about their lives, offered to help them with homework or anything, praised them for improvement in music and sport, anything to show that he cared, I would have stayed and gone to therapy every day to make it work. But he ignored and neglected them for years, prioritizing his own "work" and colleagues and computer time over family time. A year after ds got his epipen for nut allergies (a full year), xdh asked me, "so how bad are these allergies anyway?" He hadn't been reading labels or anything. He refused to wish dds "Happy Birthday" on their 13th birthday until I forced him to in the late afternoon. Etc etc etc. And it continues to this day -- he didn't see ds12 for six weeks this past spring because he just couldn't be bothered. It stinks for the kids. Really, I was very unhappy living with someone who treated me like this (ignored anything I needed, never asked about me etc) but I could have dealt with it if he had just cared about the kids.

And still it is amicable between us, we do do things together as a "family", etc., because I have decided just to bite my tongue and let go let go let go. I personally am a much much happier person (and therefore a much much better parent) now, and I think that at least the dcs do not have the model of an unhealthy relationship in their daily lives that could affect their own relationships later. 

[TravelingChris]

I don't have any friends or closer aqaintances that are divorced.  People I know only in passing may be divorced but I wouldn't want to speculate about their divorces.  The few I actually have known about in my 27 years in adult life were all adultery related, however, it was usually the adulterer who decided to leave.

[fairfarmhand]

 

Cut and pasted from here: http://psychology.about.com/od/educationalpsychology/ss/multiple-intell_8.htm

 

Strengths: Introspection and Self-Reflection

Individuals who are strong in intrapersonal intelligence are good at being aware of their own emotional states, feelings and motivations. They tend to enjoy self-reflection and analysis, including day-dreaming, exploring relationships with others and assessing their personal strengths.

Characteristics of Intrapersonal Intelligence

• Good at analyzing their strengths and weaknesses
• Enjoys analyzing theories and ideas
• Excellent self-awareness
• Clearly understands the basis for their own motivations and feelings

 

As a side note...how does one build these sorts of skills. I have 2 people in my immediate family to whom these things do not come naturally and would benefit by trying to work on this more.

[ktgrok]

I know lots of unhappy couples. Mostly actually. I think some of them are almost... Idk... Content with it that way.

 

They blame their spouse frequently, but much as I love them, it's not their spouses job to make them happy.

 

And I've known exactly one person happier and or better off divorced, so it's not like getting divorced makes people happy either.

 

(One person was married to a royal ____. So awful that in a no fault state, without kids, less than a 5 year marriage, HE got alimony from her! Lol)

 

Add me to your list of "happier after divorced". I was becoming a miserable person while married to my ex. The years of caring for someone that didn't have the ability to care back, or chose not to...watching them neglect your child...seeing your child have that as  a role model for manhood....it was just very not good. Mental illness was a huge part of that. Also, I got married when I shouldn't have....he was my first serious boyfriend, I was 17, and thought I could "fix" him. I left him twice, but came back when he begged, cried, swore things would be different. I almost got up the nerve again, and found out I was pregnant. We got married. It was terrible. He wasn't capable of being a partner, of being a spouse in any real way. I had NEVER believed in divorce, and had it just been us I might have stayed. But my son was being neglected. I was working to pay the bills, and the ex was laying in bed all day ignoring our son. I'd come home and he'd had nothing but potato chips to eat all day, and been told, "be quiet, Daddy has a head ache" all day. So I left. 

 

It was hard. I hated it. But my son blossomed. We moved in with my parents who showered him with love and time and attention. And now, years later, I am remarried to an amazing healthy man that would do anything for me. That teaches my son so much. My son is happier, I'm happier, my ex is even happier I think. And he is a much better part time father than full time. 

 

So..yeah, that's my story. I've gone from "I don't believe in divorce" to "I'm not judging anyone, it isn't my place". 

 

And our divorce has been totally amicable, in the sense that we act like grown ups, don't insult each other EVER, don't get upset over minor things, etc. We are both flexible and do whatever it takes to make sure our son is happy and gets time with both parents. We have never fought over custody or anything else since the divorce. I'm sad that we are in the minority. 

 

Oh, and to clarify, we did YEARS of marriage counseling, and individual counseling, etc. He was on meds for his mental issues. He would stop them, on purpose, cause he "didn't need them". People with mental health issues that TRY to get better are totally different. Didn't want it to seem that I just left him for that. 

[mommymilkies]

I believe such people exist. I do think it's a small minority.

 

I don't think it has to look romantic - whatever that even would look like. I just think the number of individuals who are keen to invest in their love, with a deep regard for this person (after a long time) is somewhat small, not to mention how rarely those individuals are married to another such person. I think more marriages that continue for decades do so because it makes more sense than parting. They may not be super-happy a lot of the time, but they're happier than they would be if they had to move out of their house, share kids between two locations, figure out who keeps the dog and pay a divorce lawyer to work out all those headaches. So they stay.

I agree with you. I used to work med/surg and hospice, and very few patients were still happily married. I was not surprised when I found out most of the ones married for that long that we're happy were second or third marriages.

 

Personally I don't care why people divorce. If you're unhappy, it's better to get yourself into a better situation. You only live once, why waste your time (and their time!) in an abusive or unloving relationship? But for Pete's sake, be amicable for the kids!

 

ETA: Stupid autocorrect

[gardenmom5]

As a side note...how does one build these sorts of skills. I have 2 people in my immediate family to whom these things do not come naturally and would benefit by trying to work on this more.

:bigear:  :lurk5: I have someone who also has a hard time with this.

[Murphy101]

Do you not see how sharing your life with someone who does not have similar values and goals for life as you and who does not share your idea of intimacy and friendship can be constrictive? I fail to see how it can be anything but constrictive.

The intimacy would be constrictive, presuming they still choose to be faithful of course. But the rest doesn't have to be dependent on the spouse. And in the marriages that stayed together but had a couple like you describe, the couples seemed to have found a way to seek friendship and community that supported them outside the marriage.

 

If we use your argument, we could pair just about any two people on earth and they should be able to be happy and fulfilled with each other. In reality though there is something to be said about compatible temperaments, shared values and vision for a shared life.

Sure there is.

 

I am not really sure what you are advocating here. I do not dispute that many people are pretty content, maybe even happy in a marriage that fails to meet many of their needs. That does not mean everybody needs to settle for that, do they?

All I'm saying is that while compatibility is certainly helpful, we as individuals are responsible for meeting our needs. That isn't settling and it doesn't have to mean they are unhappy. :)

[Free]

We as individuals are responsible for meeting our needs. That isn't settling and it doesn't have to mean they are unhappy.

 

I agree with this - and when individuals identify their need for a marriage that is filled with purpose and joy in itself, there is no shame in trying to meet that need.

 

[Prairie~Phlox]

I have not read all comments, I am just saying what dh & I stated early in our marriage "Divorce is not an option" we made the commitment to one another before God. It's not always easy, but I have married a faithful man and truly thank God for that.

[bolt.]

I will never say, "Divorce is not an option."

 

1. Because I believe in sin and the damage/destruction that it causes.

2. Because I am neither a prophet nor the daughter of a prophet, so I do not know what the future holds.

3. Because I don't believe that God likes me so extra-specially so much more than other people, such that He is guaranteed to step in and prevent tragic events in my life.

 

Therefore my spouse is free to become both despicable and dangerous. He is fully capable of ruining our covenant and my life without my participation and without my consent. That makes divorce an option. Similarly, I am deeply flawed and more than capable of becoming someone cruel and callous, despicable or dangerous -- someone I even wouldn't recognize. It has happened to others, so it would be pure hubris to consider it impossible in my case.

 

If any one of you honestly thinks that it is impossible that your spouse is capable of ruining your marriage without your participation and without your consent, I'd (really, not being snarky) like to see how that logic looks. Or is it that you believe you would be willing/able to "stay married" no matter how despicable or dangerous your spouse became? Or you would consider the covenant intact, no matter what actions your spouse ended up engaged with? Or in this case does "staying married" / "not divorcing" mean just in the technical/sacramental sense, not in the 'sharing life together' sense?

 

(Yeah, that sounds like a snarky challenge... I don't mean it that way. If there is logic that I haven't thought of, I do want to read and understand what it is.)

[PeacefulChaos]

That's interesting that you remember and for that reason.

 

To be honest? I don't think we disagree that often or that vehemently. We have considerable common ground.

I should have quoted the other post, but I would really like to see your list!

I don't remember it, either it was before my time or during a period of time that I didn't get on much.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

My SIL has an odd relationship with her ex. He's 10 years older; they knew each other a year before marriage; three sons later, and a month after his mom died, he comes out; living with his partner now and contributes little to his kids. Stupid schmuck.

 

I can't say I get the disconnect some fathers have.

[HRAAB]

I will never say, "Divorce is not an option."

My dh and I said that - divorce is not an option - when we got married, and at the time we believed it. Until a few years into our marriage, I realized it's always an option. It's always out there on the table. Then you get to make a choice - to use your option or not. That's what we really meant. We knew divorce was an option, but we were saying we would choose not to take that option. Of course, we were madly in love and all excited about being newlyweds. What was more important, I think, was that we were committed to marriage. I credit our Catholic upbringing for that. I have failed my dh. He has failed me. But we remained committed to the marriage. There are times when divorce is the best option - the only option. I've seen a couple family members in that situation. I know there are situations that could push me to take that option. Dh has made it plain that if he had married my sister, he would now be a divorced man. He didn't mean that as a joke.

 

Right now, today, I'm so glad I never took that option. However, I've got no desire to go crawling around in other people's marriages. Mine is a full time job - a very pleasant one - but it takes all my time and attention.

[Murphy101]

I will never say, "Divorce is not an option."

 

1. Because I believe in sin and the damage/destruction that it causes.

2. Because I am neither a prophet nor the daughter of a prophet, so I do not know what the future holds.

3. Because I don't believe that God likes me so extra-specially so much more than other people, such that He is guaranteed to step in and prevent tragic events in my life.

 

Therefore my spouse is free to become both despicable and dangerous. He is fully capable of ruining our covenant and my life without my participation and without my consent. That makes divorce an option. Similarly, I am deeply flawed and more than capable of becoming someone cruel and callous, despicable or dangerous -- someone I even wouldn't recognize. It has happened to others, so it would be pure hubris to consider it impossible in my case.

 

If any one of you honestly thinks that it is impossible that your spouse is capable of ruining your marriage without your participation and without your consent, I'd (really, not being snarky) like to see how that logic looks. Or is it that you believe you would be willing/able to "stay married" no matter how despicable or dangerous your spouse became? Or you would consider the covenant intact, no matter what actions your spouse ended up engaged with? Or in this case does "staying married" / "not divorcing" mean just in the technical/sacramental sense, not in the 'sharing life together' sense?

For me, I'm pretty confident our marriage is a valid covenant when we entered it and thus it always will be and thus I cannot have it annulled because 20 years later he might commit some major sins.

 

Divorce is a legal protection for dire circumstances only to protect myself and my children. (Obviously that's jmo. Not looking to make anyone agree with me. Just stating what I believe.)

 

Why for those circumstances only?

 

Because my covenant is still intact and thus I wouldn't be free to remarry even if I did have to resort to divorce to protect us from him.

 

Obviously not everyone believes that view of a sacramental marriage.

 

In *my* POV I can no more stop being his wife if I ever was validly his wife than I can stop being my father's daughter or my children's mother. There might be legal steps I can take to protect myself from their decisions or separate myself from them, but the biological fact and the sacramental fact can't ever be undone.

 

I repeatedly note validity because not every marriage is sacramentally valid just because it is legal or even done in a church.

 

So when *I* say "divorce is not an option* there is an invisible addendum supporting what a valid marriage is, what divorce is for, under what circumstances annulment would come into play, and my own view of what it means for me to be a wife.

[Scarlett]

It is definitely a choice to stay in marriage where you know that your needs will never be met and that you and your spouse will have fundamental differences in the way you want to experience life.

 

This perfectly sums up most of the 26 years I spent with XH.  So when I got proof of an affair I bolted.  It was my get out of jail free card.  Many people would have left him long before over a lot of hurtful and disrespectful treatment.  I never felt trapped though, even though he made all the money and I was a SAHM.  It was just the decision I made to stay married until I couldn't any longer. The affair was the dealbreaker and I divorced him. 

 

In general I don't see how divorce can be amicable.  I did my best to remain dignified, but I had a few moments, especially the first year when I was just a crazed person. XH and I are now very very amicable.  He has apologized sincerely to me and ds recently.  He does not fight me over anything and he compliments my parenting often. Ds13 is much happier now that his dad and I are civil.

 

Dh has been divorced for 5 years and even though his XW initiated the divorce and was involved with several other men, she acts as bitter and hateful toward him today as she did on day one of divorce. 

 

As I am sitting here thinking I only know of one divorce among my close and not so close friends that did not involve adultery.  In that one case,one made a radical shift in personal beliefs and eventually he tried to strong arm her into joining him.  She took 4 years to reach the 'no more' stage. 

 

I know a lot of people in long term marriages that are happy. I would even go so far as to say they are very happy.  Conversely, most of the ones who blew up their marriage, including the one that did not involve adultery, deeply regret their choices.

[elegantlion]

Dh always said divorce was not an option. We've weathered many storms that tore other marriages apart. However, after 20 years, here we are. Bolts posts really resonated with me. to give some perspective we were at the point we were both giving our best and it wasn't meeting in the middle. I was okay dealing with that, not happy - it's not even about being happy, but then it went beyond that. Marriage is a partnership that takes two people. When one person decides the relationship is going to be all about x,y, or z without consulting the other person or even attempting to listen to their side, it can become very one sided. 

 

I believe a person has a right to be a person, not a doormat, maid, or just "suck it up" because we're married for life while the other person goes willy-nilly on a divergent path where all signs point to destruction. People change, people don't always change for the good. There is a time to support your spouse through trials and there is a time to put yourself first. 

 

I believe in marriage and commitment, but I don't believe you should sacrifice all of yourself on the altar of marriage. When a spouse forgets that you are a couple, team, working together in this chaotic thing called life, when you get to the point where the marriage your clinging to is empty rhetoric - sometimes there is nothing left to hold onto. 

 

Divorce is sad, empty, and lonely. Sometimes the option to stay together is worse than that. No one should disappear in a marriage for the sake of a marriage. Some of you will get what I'm saying, some of you will think I simply gave up. Each path is different. I know full well the choice I'm making and why I believe it is the best for me, my dh, and my ds. It's not something that can truly be conveyed through a forum post, even if I wanted to share all the details. 

[gardenmom5]

 

If any one of you honestly thinks that it is impossible that your spouse is capable of ruining your marriage without your participation and without your consent, I'd (really, not being snarky) like to see how that logic looks.

my friend - the marriage and family therapist - often spoke to groups of women of what a healthy marriage was.  an oft repeated quote by him was "it takes two people to be married, and one person to be divorced."

iow: no matter how much you are putting into the relationship - if one partner wants out, it's over.  (sometimes it's their behavior, not their words, that is saying they want out.  e.g. a guy who treats his wife like nothing but a maid - doesn't want to be married (no back and forth relationship), he just wants a free maid.)

 

In an ideal world, divorce wouldn't be an option.  we don't live in an ideal world.

 

I remember the oft-repeated quip from the 70's/80's of "Marriage is 50/50".  bs.  marriage is 100/100.  if one person isn't willing to put in their all, eventually it's going to break.

[Danestress]

I know plenty of people who married young, divorced, and were happy they did. It is not a fun thing to divorce, but many people are ultimately glad they did.

 

DH and I have generally seen our friends be 'good divorcers.' I am sure there were angry moments along the way, but our friends who have divorced ended up sharing kids and money reasonably well.

 

I do think it is harder to divorce when you have been married longer and have accumulated assets, kids etc. Or when you have accumulated debt. It is painful. I can't even imagine it for myself now. But honestly, there are things I know I could not live with - adultery, porn, gambling, cooking meth:) I don't care what anyone says or what my faith says - I could not make my

peace. I know that is a personal failing, but there you have it. As Lionel Lovett says, "that's the difference between God and me."

[fairfarmhand]

I guess that I don't think my spouse is capable of being dangerous or despicable.  It isn't in his nature.  He has a VERY strong moral code and integrity.  I've seen it in very small things ( taking something back to Walmart that was accidentally in our cart) and very large things ( mistake on taxes that a different accountant found and advised us to ignore ( it was several years old)  He did not.  He filed an amended, corrected return and paid thousands in extra taxes and penalties because it was the right thing to do.

 

So divorce is not an option because he is a man of integrity.  Does that make sense?  But We dated for nearly 3 years before we got married and I made VERY sure what his character was before I married him.   We pray together and depend on God. 

 

So for ME, it is not an option.  I would not say that it is never an option for others. My parents got divorced after 25 years and although I think God hates divorce, I honestly could not blame my mom.  My dad was bipolar and emotionally abusive.  He could be the sweetest man one day and really fun and the next day so depressed he couldn't get out of bed and the next day so angry he would yell at all of us and tell us how stupid we were.  I had to read his mood every day to figure out how to act: today I can be fun, today I need to stay out of his way, today I need to comfort him.  My mom was so much happier once she divorced my dad!!!  She remarried a couple of years later and is still married to this sweet man 23 years later.  She apologized to me a few months ago and told me she was sorry about the divorce that she really tried to make it work.  I told her that I KNEW that and that my father was a very hard man to live with!!!  Which is why I married Mr. Steady who is always calm and reasonable and never loses his temper!!!

I don't want to disparage your dh, but the Bible is full of men of integrity who fell.  No one is perfect. No one is incapable of turning their backs on what they know to be right.

 

This is what keeps me on my knees constantly. If David, a man after God's own heart ...if Solomon, who was blessed with wisdom and wealth beyond measure, If Peter who witnessed the miracles of Jesus....could totally and completely screw up, then who am I, who is my dh, who are my children to think that we will never ruin our lives. Satan is wily and he knows how to get to me and those I love.

 

 

[Scarlett]

I guess that I don't think my spouse is capable of being dangerous or despicable.  It isn't in his nature.  He has a VERY strong moral code and integrity.  I've seen it in very small things ( taking something back to Walmart that was accidentally in our cart) and very large things ( mistake on taxes that a different accountant found and advised us to ignore ( it was several years old)  He did not.  He filed an amended, corrected return and paid thousands in extra taxes and penalties because it was the right thing to do.

 

So divorce is not an option because he is a man of integrity.  Does that make sense?  But We dated for nearly 3 years before we got married and I made VERY sure what his character was before I married him.   We pray together and depend on God. 

 

So for ME, it is not an option.  I would not say that it is never an option for others. My parents got divorced after 25 years and although I think God hates divorce, I honestly could not blame my mom.  My dad was bipolar and emotionally abusive.  He could be the sweetest man one day and really fun and the next day so depressed he couldn't get out of bed and the next day so angry he would yell at all of us and tell us how stupid we were.  I had to read his mood every day to figure out how to act: today I can be fun, today I need to stay out of his way, today I need to comfort him.  My mom was so much happier once she divorced my dad!!!  She remarried a couple of years later and is still married to this sweet man 23 years later.  She apologized to me a few months ago and told me she was sorry about the divorce that she really tried to make it work.  I told her that I KNEW that and that my father was a very hard man to live with!!!  Which is why I married Mr. Steady who is always calm and reasonable and never loses his temper!!!

 

 

What if your dh got a mental illness and was impossible to live with? 

 

And as Fairfarmhand pointed out any of us are capable of falling, including your dh. 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Ya know why I can't imagine divorce? It's because every time I opened my eyes during each of my several hospital stays over the past 3 years, DW was there.

 

It's that simple, and not so simple.

[Murphy101]

What if your dh got a mental illness and was impossible to live with? 

 

Idk. I suppose if he were abusive and I had to file divorce to protect myself and the kids, but otherwise I'd be highly likely to figure out some way to cope with it. Because if I truly believed he was ill, I don't think I'd be able to leave just because it was an awful illness. That wouldn't change how awful it might genuinely be.

[Rosie_0801]

Idk. I suppose if he were abusive and I had to file divorce to protect myself and the kids, but otherwise I'd be highly likely to figure out some way to cope with it. Because if I truly believed he was ill, I don't think I'd be able to leave just because it was an awful illness. That wouldn't change how awful it might genuinely be.

 

I think people can put up with a lot more when the condition is incurable than when it isn't.

[Rosie_0801]

As a side note...how does one build these sorts of skills. I have 2 people in my immediate family to whom these things do not come naturally and would benefit by trying to work on this more.

 

The first step is they have to want to...

 

I'm pretty sure if people don't have these skills, it is because they don't want to.

[Wheres Toto]

I guess I'll start by saying I am divorced.  I would never judge anyone else's reasons for divorce because I'm not living their life. 

 

My first marriage ended in divorce after nearly 11 years.  My biggest mistake was not doing it after year 1.  Honestly.  I knew then it was doomed but I thought that if I just stuck with the "divorce is not an option" mantra that everything would work itself out.   My divorce was not a result of one of the "Big Three A's", either.  It was just a bad, bad deal all around. 

 

I believed I would never marry again, but I finally decided to anyway. Now, I approach it much differently than before.  I believe we only get this one life, and if someone is making another miserable for much of it, then they should go their separate ways.   Not as a first option, of course, but it's definitely on the table, so both my husband and I better remember that if we want to stay together.  We better always do our best to honor and support and actively love one another.  I've never been so lonely in my life as I was during most of my first marriage, and I flat out refuse to ever allow myself to be that way again.  If that's how I feel with my husband, or he with me, and we give it our best effort, and it just isn't working, we'll be done.  And I absolutely guarantee it wouldn't take 10+ years the second time around.

 

This is very very similar to the story of my first marriage.  He was emotionally abusive but much of it was so subtle and gradual that it was more an accumulation of things.   I can definitely relate to the loneliness.

 

I have to say out of all the couples I know, both married and divorced, I don't know of any in the situation you describe... those who are together are generally happy.  Those who aren't tend to split either with or without working on it.  I don't know of anyone who is together due to the "convenience" of not getting a divorce.
 

 

I know a LOT of people who stay married because they don't see a reason to divorce even though they are basically leading separate lives.  I know quite a few who "can't afford" to get divorced and a lot of SAHM's who would leave in a second if they thought they could afford to support themselves and their kids.

 

After just a couple years with my ex, I knew things weren't going well.  Dh and I have been married 9 years this month and I have never had that feeling.  There's much more of a feeling of facing things together, sharing things as a team.  I suppose if he cheated, or became addicted, or did something that would be harmful to the kids I wouldn't stay with him.  

[Murphy101]

I think people can put up with a lot more when the condition is incurable than when it isn't.

Did you mean curable?

 

Idk. I think it depends on the condition and their support or lack of it.

[Rosie_0801]

Did you mean curable?

 

Idk. I think it depends on the condition and their support or lack of it.

 

No, I meant incurable.

 

Incurable conditions are "acts of God," if you like. Curable conditions that aren't being cured and could be are not. Most people have more patience with the former.

[Guest]

I guess that I don't think my spouse is capable of being dangerous or despicable.  It isn't in his nature.  He has a VERY strong moral code and integrity.  I've seen it in very small things ( taking something back to Walmart that was accidentally in our cart) and very large things ( mistake on taxes that a different accountant found and advised us to ignore ( it was several years old)  He did not.  He filed an amended, corrected return and paid thousands in extra taxes and penalties because it was the right thing to do.

 

So divorce is not an option because he is a man of integrity.  Does that make sense?  But We dated for nearly 3 years before we got married and I made VERY sure what his character was before I married him.   We pray together and depend on God. 

 

So for ME, it is not an option.  I would not say that it is never an option for others. My parents got divorced after 25 years and although I think God hates divorce, I honestly could not blame my mom.  My dad was bipolar and emotionally abusive.  He could be the sweetest man one day and really fun and the next day so depressed he couldn't get out of bed and the next day so angry he would yell at all of us and tell us how stupid we were.  I had to read his mood every day to figure out how to act: today I can be fun, today I need to stay out of his way, today I need to comfort him.  My mom was so much happier once she divorced my dad!!!  She remarried a couple of years later and is still married to this sweet man 23 years later.  She apologized to me a few months ago and told me she was sorry about the divorce that she really tried to make it work.  I told her that I KNEW that and that my father was a very hard man to live with!!!  Which is why I married Mr. Steady who is always calm and reasonable and never loses his temper!!!

 

I hope he remains exactly that way. I've learned, though, how drastically people can change from sources you never imagined: illness, injury, brain injury, medications, traumatic events (like a death, or being a victim of a crime) and probably a few other things I can't think of right now. 

 

I have never seen studies about this, but my gut belief is that many (most?) people who do incredibly harmful, dangerous and terrible things have one or more factors of unwellness in their body. Chronic disease can turn people into total strangers, violent, irrational, destructive and bizarre. Brain injury can do this. PTSD can do this. Side-effects of medication can do this. Even changes in hormones as we go through life stages can make us quite dissimilar from the 25-year-old who made naive promises about forever. This is why I no longer believe that dh will certainly and definitely always be the fine man I married - I am subject to change as well. I am already far different from the sweet and very compliant girl I was in 1994; if dh wanted to make a case that I was different and not all he had hoped for, he would have a valid complaint. 

 

FWIW, I married Mr. Steady, too, for very similar reasons to yours. He is a good guy, but he can no longer be called Mr. Steady. He has changed. This is the kind of thing I was agreeing with earlier in this thread - that one cannot control how one's mate will continue to be. It's foolish to imagine that one's personality is fixed at 25 and will not change for the worse for one or more reasons. That is why the vow, "...for better or for worse..." is traditionally included. Most young people probably have no concept of what "...worse" might actually be like and wouldn't sign up for it if they did.