I can't take the lying and sneaking anymore!

[Aspasia]

My dd6 is constantly lying, constantly sneaking. It's driving me insane, and nothing we do seems to get through to her. We've had all the talks about how lying makes us feel. We've issued "consequences" where she has to sort of make it up to us after she gets busted in a lie. We've tried to tell her that her consequence will be less if she tells the truth. Blah, blah, blah. Nothing works with this kid. And she's constantly sneaking things she knows she isn't supposed to have: treats, extra markers, etc. I put them up high out of her reach, but somehow, when I'm not looking, she figures out a way to climb up and get them. It's unbelievable. She asks me for things, like my bracelets, and I say no (because my bracelets aren't dress-ups), and the next day, I find my bracelets buried in her drawer. I have had it with this child. Every single time I turn around, she has taken something else or lied about something else. Honestly, I feel like, at her core she just doesn't respect me at all. She doesn't think she has to listen to anything I say. Ever.

[Amy in NH]

Tomato stake her.

[NicAnn]

Ditto what Amy said. I've found the bulk of issues are caused by a disconnect somewhere.

 

DDs whole personality changes when we are connected.

[Aspasia]

That's a good idea. Do you think it will change the way she has no respect for my position as mom? I mean, when it comes down to it, she just doesn't think my rules apply to her. When dh is around and reminds her of a rule, she follows it. When I'm here and I remind her of a rule, she follows it until I'm not looking and then does whatever she wants. She truly does not believe that she's any different from me in terms of authority or privileges. When we moved into our new house, she came into our big master bathroom and asked why we get such a big bathroom and hers is so small. We said, "Well, can you think of ANY reason why Daddy and I might have a bigger bathroom than you?" She was honestly stumped. She just doesn't see a difference between herself and the adults in our house. With the baby, I ask her not to carry the baby on the stairs, not to take the baby outside, etc. And yet, I regularly look up to see her carrying the baby on the stairs and there have been a few times where I caught her taking the baby outside. Oh my gosh!!!

[garddwr]

It is not uncommon for oldest children to self-identify with the parents and think of themselves as another adult.

 

I would say mother her, gently and kindly, sit on the couch and read to her, if you are giving her more responsibilities than the other children maybe step that back, let her find herself as a child among children. Maybe try saying yes more often than no when she asks for something, so she recognizes asking as a valid way to get things she wants.

 

Consequences are  great, but six is still pretty young--she does not see the world the way you see it, she may think of herself as an adult but does not have the perspective or impulse control of an adult. Try to set her up for success as often as possible, make sure your expectations for her behavior are well within her reach and not a constant stretch. Again, six is young. Lying to avoid consequences at that age is very, very normal, I would try to not give her opportunities to lie (i.e., if you know or think she took something she wasn't supposed to have, DON'T ask her if she took it; if you're confident she did, tell her it makes you sad when she takes things without permission, give her a small chore or something to make up for it, hug her and move on).

 

ETA if you have slipped into a rut of frequent negative interactions with this child, make a conscious effort to increase the ratio of positive to negative interactions. This book is a good resource.

[KrissiK]

I understand, I understand. I have a child just like that. And he has no respect for my position as a parent, either. And I do try to treat all my children with respect and model that. He lies and lies and lies. All the time. For no reason. It's not for fear of getting in trouble. "Is that your yogurt cup on the table." "No" I was just going to ask him to throw it away. And the lying goes on up as far as how serious the lie is. He thinks that it's not fair that I as a parent should have privileges he doesn't and he voices this. He is sneaky, too. He's not allowed to go into the garage anymore because he sneaks popciles and cookies from the freezer, and we do let the kids have regular snacks and desserts, so it's not like he never gets these things. I actually feel like they get too much of this.... But that's a different story. I hear you sister, and I have no answers. We've just started grounding the kids. A day for each lie. And we try to be super consistent in calling them on their lies and forcing them to admit the truth.

[fairfarmhand]

Oldest child syndrome.

 

They spent so much time with adults, we brag about how "mature" they are (and sometimes they are) we give them responsibility...and they begin to think that they are miniature adults.

 

Try not to take it personally. Try to appeal to her reason, rather than pull the "because I am an adult and I said so." It IS hard. I have one of these kids too.

 

Don't worry about establishing respect. Often this line of thinking just makes moms dig into the "because I am the mom and I AM THE BOSS!" mentality. Be worthy of her respect. Be a safe place for her to confide. Stay in control. Stay firm.

 

Also, with my dd, the book "The Explosive Child" helped me figure out better ways of parenting. Even if your child is not particularly explosive, his methods will probably work with her.

 

With special snacks and treats, etc. I had to explain things like "These treats are for everyone. They have to last a whole week. That means that you get 3 popsicles each week." I would write her name on HER treats and say. "Here are your treats. If you eat them all in one day, fine. But you won't get any more till grocery day because it won't be fair to anyone else."

 

These kids are really big on FAIR. They often understand fair.

 

Sometimes it works to give these kids MORE autonomy over themselves rather than less. Let them make the decision to eat all the cookies in one day and then watch siblings have cookies all week while they get nothing. Let them learn through natural consequences.

 

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on some things that worked with my oldest.

[PentecostalMom]

Tomato stake her.

 

This.

[poppy]

I'm sorry I'm clueless. What does that mean?

[LostSurprise]

Its not unusual for some children to have a much stronger belief in themselves (their thoughts, needs, interests) than in others. Natural skeptics, they may also have trouble with 'gray area' empathy (may be empathetic for physical injury, obvious mean behavior, but have more difficulty with how what they say affects others or respect issues). 

 

This isn't bad. Its just part of the human continuum. I find 5-6 to be a real challenge for kids like this because there's such a huge leap in physical independence and thinking. They feel more like an adult, so their actions seem valid to them. 

 

Obviously, part of this is that she has the freedom to do these things. You assume that a 6 year old can be left to wander around the house and follow the rules. If she can't be responsible for following rules and respecting other people's things than you can't give her that freedom. It may seem unfair to you (extra work on you) but she just hasn't had that leap yet. I would keep an eye on her more like the 3 year old. If she asks why be very forthright (and un-emotional) with her. I would say something like, "sweetheart, I love you and I thought you were old enough and responsible enough to go around the house by yourself, but lately we've been having a problem with you not following the rules. You've taken my things when I told you no. You've done unsafe things with the baby. Maybe you're not old enough for that much freedom yet. I need you to stay closer to me, and when I see more responsibility I'll give you more freedom."

 

Also, kids like this need things spelled out for them. You can't expect a 6 year old to understand why Mommy and Daddy might need a bigger bathroom. Just tell her (and 'because we're the parents/adults' doesn't really work). Try to explain things in age-appropriate terms or in metaphors or examples she can understand. Was she be happy when her 3 year old brother came in her room and took X (valued thing) while she was gone? That's how you feel. Remember X time she fell on the stairs? What if she was carrying the baby? Kids this age do not have the same ability to see the possibilities of the future (and experience enough negative ones not to take chances). Even teens struggle with that. Be careful of your expectations. 

 

 

[BYE]

This.

What does that mean? To tomato stake?

[Aspasia]

Oldest child syndrome.

 

They spent so much time with adults, we brag about how "mature" they are (and sometimes they are) we give them responsibility...and they begin to think that they are miniature adults.

 

Try not to take it personally. Try to appeal to her reason, rather than pull the "because I am an adult and I said so." It IS hard. I have one of these kids too.

 

Don't worry about establishing respect. Often this line of thinking just makes moms dig into the "because I am the mom and I AM THE BOSS!" mentality. Be worthy of her respect. Be a safe place for her to confide. Stay in control. Stay firm.

 

Also, with my dd, the book "The Explosive Child" helped me figure out better ways of parenting. Even if your child is not particularly explosive, his methods will probably work with her.

 

With special snacks and treats, etc. I had to explain things like "These treats are for everyone. They have to last a whole week. That means that you get 3 popsicles each week." I would write her name on HER treats and say. "Here are your treats. If you eat them all in one day, fine. But you won't get any more till grocery day because it won't be fair to anyone else."

 

These kids are really big on FAIR. They often understand fair.

 

Sometimes it works to give these kids MORE autonomy over themselves rather than less. Let them make the decision to eat all the cookies in one day and then watch siblings have cookies all week while they get nothing. Let them learn through natural consequences.

 

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on some things that worked with my oldest.

This is great advice. Thank you so much.

 

I don't fixate on the respect thing at all. It's just, in thinking about this problem, I realized that the core issue is that she doesn't respect me. I'm definitely not the kind of parent who obsesses over respect--I just noticed that the behavior is rooted in its absence. And that bothers me...:(

[Aspasia]

What does that mean? To tomato stake?

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch07.php

[Aspasia]

Thank you all so much! I can't believe I totally forgot about tomato staking. I'm pregnant and sick and exhausted and I just can't think clearly. I've been feeling like a crazy person, and just so desperate for a solution. I knew you ladies would have some good insight. I explained to dd that because I can't trust her right now to play freely, I'm going to keep her close to me. She actually loves tomato staking and helping me with my chores, so it's not so bad. :)

[Danestress]

It is interesting what you say about oldest children. My oldest was definitely most this way. It was maddening.

 

I actually think that 'because I am the Mom' is a perfectly good reason. I was also fond of, "I don't have to provide a reason you will accept." Truly, no reason would be acceptable to him.

 

He is such a reasonable, honorable, affectionate adult. I honestly just think childhood is a hard place for some people. He just needed to grow up, make his own money, and feel free to eat a family sized package of Skittles, if he pleases.

 

Oldest child syndrome.

 

They spent so much time with adults, we brag about how "mature" they are (and sometimes they are) we give them responsibility...and they begin to think that they are miniature adults.

 

Try not to take it personally. Try to appeal to her reason, rather than pull the "because I am an adult and I said so." It IS hard. I have one of these kids too.

 

Don't worry about establishing respect. Often this line of thinking just makes moms dig into the "because I am the mom and I AM THE BOSS!" mentality. Be worthy of her respect. Be a safe place for her to confide. Stay in control. Stay firm.

 

Also, with my dd, the book "The Explosive Child" helped me figure out better ways of parenting. Even if your child is not particularly explosive, his methods will probably work with her.

 

With special snacks and treats, etc. I had to explain things like "These treats are for everyone. They have to last a whole week. That means that you get 3 popsicles each week." I would write her name on HER treats and say. "Here are your treats. If you eat them all in one day, fine. But you won't get any more till grocery day because it won't be fair to anyone else."

 

These kids are really big on FAIR. They often understand fair.

 

Sometimes it works to give these kids MORE autonomy over themselves rather than less. Let them make the decision to eat all the cookies in one day and then watch siblings have cookies all week while they get nothing. Let them learn through natural consequences.

 

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on some things that worked with my oldest.

[Scarlett]

You have your hands full so don't be too hard on yourself....but I agree with the suggestion to tomato stake her. My des was 4 when he went through a stage like this. It was maddening and I only have the one child!

[walkermamaof4]

We listened to some cd's that also said lying is a maturity issue as well. So they encouraged that we anticipate younger kids will lie, we discourage it, but in anticipating it we help them by phrasing questions carefully so as not to set them up. When we know or think that they did something wrong, we can either make them feel cornered in the way we ask about it, or we can state what we imagine they did. "Did you eat the cookies" vs "We know you ate the cookies. What were you thinking about when you did that?" might get differing responses. So we have gotten better at how we approach talking about it and try not to set up our child for lying. HTH!

[bolt.]

I was all prepared with an answer, and others beat me to it: more supervision, plus more warmth, and don't expect impulse control or a commitment to personal honesty from her for a few years yet.

 

With young kids the "respect" issue is not something the child owes (and is in the wrong if they don't show respect) -- respect for parents' words and rules is in the process of being built by the parents' actions. She won't apply the rules to herself. It's up to you to apply them to her. That's normal. Once you build that respect dynamic, it will feel family-normal to her, and she will have an easier time abiding within it.

 

However, I was one of those kids (not the oldest) who felt the sting of being governed by my parents when I (immaturely) honestly could not fathom that they had any right or reason to do so. It was very painful for me, and I honestly don't know how it could have been helped. I was a very deceptive child/teen, just as you are discribing.

[gardenmom5]

years ago, I heard one mom who dealt with it by lying to the kid.

 

oh, let's go to the park after lunch.  kid complains they didn't go to the park.  oh, I lied.

we'll stop at mcdonalds after practice.  kid complains they didn't go to mcd's.  oh, I lied.

etc.

in her case, she said it got through to the child when he was on the receiving end of the "Lies".  they never had to "revisit" that and there was no more lying.

[fairfarmhand]

It is interesting what you say about oldest children. My oldest was definitely most this way. It was maddening.

 

I actually think that 'because I am the Mom' is a perfectly good reason. I was also fond of, "I don't have to provide a reason you will accept." Truly, no reason would be acceptable to him.

 

He is such a reasonable, honorable, affectionate adult. I honestly just think childhood is a hard place for some people. He just needed to grow up, make his own money, and feel free to eat a family sized package of Skittles, if he pleases.

 

 

Of course, "Because I am the mom and I said to." is a perfectly acceptable reason. However, it rankles some children much more than others. I found that explaining to my child, "I don't always have time to explain why you need to do something, so please obey first and then ask why later and I will be okay with that," I gave several for instances, like if the phone was ringing or my pot was boiling over where I just needed her to obey and we would talk about it later. Some kids really need to know that mom is not just arbitrarily making rules and throwing her weight around. (some kids feel this way, and some parents do actually parent in this way.) Once my dd figured out that most of the time that mom really did have a good reason for most of the things that she asked, she slowed down a bit on the questioning/sneaking/trying to get round the rules.

 

Also, I learned that I needed to give CONCRETE answers for things. She had (and still does) a very hard time with "later" and "sometime we will do that".  She needed "At 3 this afternoon" or "next week." If I didn't give a concrete answer, she tended to struggle with obedience because she needed something to look forward to. If she wasn't given a concrete time she'd disobey because she wondered if she would EVER get to do whatever.

 

WRT to the red...I totally get this. My dh was like this too. I don't know that he would have ever been content with someone telling him what to do, even if they were the most reasonable, laid back parent. My dd is like this too. I am starting to look for employment for her, because she needs more autonomy and I will try to provide it at a level that is equal to her maturity.

 

To the OP: You said that your dd responds differently to her father.

 

Maybe the issue isn't as much respect. Perhaps the types of things that her dad gives her direction on are things that don't matter to her. Perhaps she tests you more merely because she spends more time with you. Perhaps she is responding to him because she's not with him as much, In much the same way, my kids always behave better for other people than for me.

 

Try not to take it personally. We dealt with the same things with my oldest. She responded better to one parent than the other during childhood, but now as a teen the roles have swapped and I am not sure why.

[gardenmom5]

Of course, "Because I am the mom and I said to." is a perfectly acceptable reason. However, it rankles some children much more than others. I found that explaining to my child, "I don't always have time to explain why you need to do something, so please obey first and then ask why later and I will be okay with that," I gave several for instances, like if the phone was ringing or my pot was boiling over where I just needed her to obey and we would talk about it later. Some kids really need to know that mom is not just arbitrarily making rules and throwing her weight around. (some kids feel this way, and some parents do actually parent in this way.) Once my dd figured out that most of the time that mom really did have a good reason for most of the things that she asked, she slowed down a bit on the questioning/sneaking/trying to get round the rules.

 

I consider myself to have been a pretty obedient child - but that answer really infuriated me.

Just give me a reason. . . . . .

[Galatea]

Of course, "Because I am the mom and I said to." is a perfectly acceptable reason. However, it rankles some children much more than others. I found that explaining to my child, "I don't always have time to explain why you need to do something, so please obey first and then ask why later and I will be okay with that," I gave several for instances, like if the phone was ringing or my pot was boiling over where I just needed her to obey and we would talk about it later. Some kids really need to know that mom is not just arbitrarily making rules and throwing her weight around. (some kids feel this way, and some parents do actually parent in this way.) Once my dd figured out that most of the time that mom really did have a good reason for most of the things that she asked, she slowed down a bit on the questioning/sneaking/trying to get round the rules.

 

Also, I learned that I needed to give CONCRETE answers for things. She had (and still does) a very hard time with "later" and "sometime we will do that".  She needed "At 3 this afternoon" or "next week." If I didn't give a concrete answer, she tended to struggle with obedience because she needed something to look forward to. If she wasn't given a concrete time she'd disobey because she wondered if she would EVER get to do whatever.

 

WRT to the red...I totally get this. My dh was like this too. I don't know that he would have ever been content with someone telling him what to do, even if they were the most reasonable, laid back parent. My dd is like this too. I am starting to look for employment for her, because she needs more autonomy and I will try to provide it at a level that is equal to her maturity.

 

To the OP: You said that your dd responds differently to her father.

 

Maybe the issue isn't as much respect. Perhaps the types of things that her dad gives her direction on are things that don't matter to her. Perhaps she tests you more merely because she spends more time with you. Perhaps she is responding to him because she's not with him as much, In much the same way, my kids always behave better for other people than for me.

 

Try not to take it personally. We dealt with the same things with my oldest. She responded better to one parent than the other during childhood, but now as a teen the roles have swapped and I am not sure why.

 

As a child and especially as a teen, I absolutely hated when my parents said "because I said so" or "because I'm the mom and you're the child" when I asked a reason why there was a rule.  A lot of the time I was very aware that there was no good reason for the rule, it was just because they wanted control or because they wanted convenience. 

 

Because of this I always try to answer the "why?" questions from my daughter with real reasons.  It helps teach her why we have certain rules.  No, you can't have cookies for dinner because this isn't good for keeping your body healthy.  No, you can't jump on the couch because you might fall and get hurt and because it ruins the furniture.  This helps her reasoning abilities, it teaches her that we have rules and guidelines for a reason, and it helps show her that I can be trusted when the things I tell her turn out to be true later.

 

I also make sure that I say yes frequently enough that the no's aren't so painful.  She gets treats fairly regularly, but always with limits.  I let her play with my things like makeup or jewelry, but only with supervision.  For a daughter fascinated with asking for your jewelry and then taking and hiding it later, make sure she has some of these feminine things for herself.  My daughter has two necklaces that are just for her.  Then when she sees me wearing mine, she can get hers and be just like mommy.

 

And I agree that following instructions from her father quickly when she doesn't do the same to you is mostly to do with being around you more.  My daughter is the same way and my husband has commented on it to me.  She tests me more because I am the one making and enforcing the most rules and making the most decisions on her questions.  He is around less often so the relationship is slightly different and each interaction has more impact because of time.  If she pushes him once in a day and he is firm, it is more influential than if she pushes you once in a day, because she will most likely have many more opportunities to push.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

tomato staking-never heard of that-thanks for the link.....interesting....

[snickerplum]

I could have written your post. Exactly.
She'll cry and cry, saying she's telling us she's saying the truth only to find out it was a lie. Call it a mom thing - I can tell in her eyes and face when she's lying. She's been doing it for a while. And it's not about big things OR because she fears punishment. "You need to help your brother and sisters pick up the flash cards in the living room, please." "But MOM - I didn't even PLAY with them!!" "I saw you playing with them." "Oh." Good grief.

I hate lying. Not that anyone likes it  :001_rolleyes:  but I really really hate it. I want others to believe what I say and not second guess me and I dislike not being able to believe my child. I know that children lie for various reasons, but it seems like our oldest has taken it to an extreme.

This is also the daughter who doesn't care about punishment. 95% of the time she's a great kid. But there's nothing we can "threaten" her with (removal of things or privileges, sitting alone, etc.) that will help her choose to obey when she doesn't want to. Ugh. She'd rather take the punishment. She's totally strong willed. I know someday it will be a positive in her life, but right now it makes her mama crazy.

[musicianmom]

I resort to "because I say so" a lot more than I probably should. That's because my kids all have lawyer in their genes. When I give them a reason, they treat it as a challenge to pick the reason apart and invalidate it. Yes, even the 4-year-old. So it ends up with "because I say so" anyway.

[fairfarmhand]

I resort to "because I say so" a lot more than I probably should. That's because my kids all have lawyer in their genes. When I give them a reason, they treat it as a challenge to pick the reason apart and invalidate it. Yes, even the 4-year-old. So it ends up with "because I say so" anyway.

 

Believe me, I understand this. I have said before, " I will explain only if you don't try to argue about it. If you try to change my mind by arguing, I will quit explaining."  My dd honestly believes that I would change my mind about every decision if I only knew a little more information about the story. So many times I've had to tell her, "Nothing you can say will change my mind about this. Discussion over."

 

So annoying.

[musicianmom]

Believe me, I understand this. I have said before, " I will explain only if you don't try to argue about it. If you try to change my mind by arguing, I will quit explaining." My dd honestly believes that I would change my mind about every decision if I only knew a little more information about the story. So many times I've had to tell her, "Nothing you can say will change my mind about this. Discussion over."

 

So annoying.

Oh yes. My kids get mad at me when I cut them off and refuse to hear their long-winded detailed arguments. What they don't realize is that I have already anticipated their objections and rejected them, so there's no point in going on and on.

[MAIMOM]

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch07.php

 

Wow thanks for sharing this. I will pass this on to my mommies around me. We did much of this and have enjoyed he benefits. My DS 17 still loves to hang out with us. We intentionally cultivated this. What a great way of phrasing and explaining.

[MAIMOM]

I could have written your post. Exactly.

This is also the daughter who doesn't care about punishment. 95% of the time she's a great kid. But there's nothing we can "threaten" her with (removal of things or privileges, sitting alone, etc.) that will help her choose to obey when she doesn't want to. Ugh. She'd rather take the punishment. She's totally strong willed. I know someday it will be a positive in her life, but right now it makes her mama crazy.

 

My Ds was this way with discipline. If I said for a week you cannot _______. He would look at me and say, so next Thursday I can _____________ again. I finally found with him I had to phrase it like this.

You cannot do __________ until I see a change of heart in you.

Oh, the horror of not knowing when it would end. That was torture and motivated him. He also was not to ask if I had noticed..LOL

 

[Mom2TheTeam]

My 3 year old is just like you describe...he lies already.  How does he even know to do that??  He sneaks around and takes things he was told he is not allowed to have.  It does not matter where I hide it.  It is SO frustrating.  He is the same way about not realizing he is a kid.  He doesn't understand why I can use a knife and he can't.  I say he thinks he is an adult. 

 

He is 3 years younger than yours.  I'm praying it's going to get better, but maybe it isn't.  *sigh*

 

BTW - He is not the oldest.  He has 3 older siblings.  My oldest is the opposite of this.  When one of the other kids asks me why about an instruction, he will answer, "Because Mom said so!"  If we are allowed something the kids aren't, when the youngers ask why, he will say, "because they are the parents.  They are adults and it's their money."  Ha, ha!  But, then, there is my 3 year old independent spirit.  I'm sure it's going to be an awesome quality as enters adulthood.  It's just getting there that I'm worried about.  :tongue_smilie:

[ErinE]

Warning about the godly tomatoes website; it advocates some pretty harsh discipline. I agree with the idea of tomato staking, but I call it being mom's helper. I can supervise the child, monitoring and correcting behavior. I also agree with the positive attention; when my kids act out, sometimes they just need more love.

[yucabird]

The book NutureShock has a thought-provoking chapter on lying.  And establishing a home atmosphere where the truth is appreciated and expected, rather than one in which a lying child is solely dealt with by punishment, has changed things at my house. 

 

Here’s an example of a conversation when I was trying to get my 5.5 yo into the habit of telling the truth:

 

Me: Someone left the top off the toothpaste. 

Child: It wasn’t me.

Me (calmly but firmly):  Hum.  I saw you use the toothpaste a little while ago.  I’m the only other person here right now, and I didn’t open the tube.  I don’t like it when people lie to me.  I like it when people tell me the truth.  I think you did not tell me the truth a moment ago.  I’m not going to punish you, but I expect the truth.  Did you leave the top off the toothpaste?

Child:  Yes.  I’m sorry.

Me:  Then please put the top back on the tube.  I’m disappointed you didn’t tell the truth when I asked you earlier, but I’m very glad you told me the truth just now.         

 

In the past, I would have gotten annoyed if I caught her in a lie.  (I believe) she felt she was going to be punished, so she would continue to deny/lie.  I was concerned about the future:  was she going to become a proficient liar?  But now that she knows what my expectations are (truth telling), and what my reaction is likely to be, then she is far more likely to 1) not lie and 2) tell the truth when she is caught. Today, if I were to state that someone has left the top of the tube, she would probably say something like, “It was me.  I’m sorry, Mommy.†          

[Parrothead]

What happens when you don't ask question? Instead of, "is this your cup?" And you wait for an answer so you can follow up with, "please put it in the sink." You start out in command mode, " please put your cup in the sink now." It doesn't have to be harshly said. But it doesn't leave room for an answer. If she tries to argue it isn't hers just repeat the command without emotion or being drawn Into the argument.

 

The only thing that came to mind about the sneaking is to tomato stake her. Being trusted to do X requires trust. If you can't trust her she will have to be within arms reach at all times. And if you have a wily one, watch for sneaking out of bed in the middle of the night to get the forbidden item.

[KrissiK]

We try to be very specific about what the punishment is for. "If you would have been truthful you would have only gotten x, but because you lied about it, now it is x and y."

 

And this week, for some reason, we have really been coming down on lying, they've been getting grounded big time, and I've been getting in their faces, "I want the truth, now is the time to tell it!" And it seems to be sinking in. I can't remember what it was that happened, but DS2 then said, " but at least we told the truth." So times I think lying becomes an easy habit to get in to, and it's a habit that needs to be called upon and faced and broken.

[8circles]

I was all prepared with an answer, and others beat me to it: more supervision, plus more warmth, and don't expect impulse control or a commitment to personal honesty from her for a few years yet.

 

With young kids the "respect" issue is not something the child owes (and is in the wrong if they don't show respect) -- respect for parents' words and rules is in the process of being built by the parents' actions. She won't apply the rules to herself. It's up to you to apply them to her. That's normal. Once you build that respect dynamic, it will feel family-normal to her, and she will have an easier time abiding within it.

 

However, I was one of those kids (not the oldest) who felt the sting of being governed by my parents when I (immaturely) honestly could not fathom that they had any right or reason to do so. It was very painful for me, and I honestly don't know how it could have been helped. I was a very deceptive child/teen, just as you are discribing.

 

This.

 

Honestly, I think you're overthinking this, OP.  I have a 6 year-old who has been this way for a couple years now.  The first year I basically pulled my hair out from frustration.  I tomato-staked, I time-outed, I explained the disrespect, lying, stealing till my face was blue, etc.  

 

He isn't the oldest, so that isn't part of our dynamic.  For us, he just needs more me.  I'm going to be honest & say that I can't tell you how disheartened I was when I realized this.  I was already stretched to the limit with homeschooling my older kids, all the activities, keeping-up with the house, FOO crap I was going through.  The last thing I needed was to slow down & nurture my 6 yr-old more.  But, I try to.  I don't always do it well, but I did  cut back on a few things that I could, let go of things that I could, & just try to enjoy him.  It isn't perfect, but it is immensely better.  & really, he's such a lovely child that I'm glad to spend this time with him - I just needed to let go of the other stuff first.

 

I can't say that your situation is the same as mine, but much of your post & your feelings resonated with me.  I hope that you're able to find a solution that works.

[fairfarmhand]

This.

 

Honestly, I think you're overthinking this, OP.  I have a 6 year-old who has been this way for a couple years now.  The first year I basically pulled my hair out from frustration.  I tomato-staked, I time-outed, I explained the disrespect, lying, stealing till my face was blue, etc.  

 

 

Yeah...one more thing. I tend to sometimes take my kids' behavior personally. I internalize it thinking "If I were a better mom, I would be able to put a stop to ___." YOu know what? Some kids lie and sneak because they are immature children. This IS typical childish behavior. IT says nothing about you as a mother. Handle it as best you can and I am pretty sure that she will grow out of it, especially if you are proactive in addressing it.

[8circles]

Also I think generally kids are sneaky when they need or want control over things.  If you can find ways to give your kid choices (like wrt sneaking snacks- make a healthy snack area which the child can choose from independently and doesnt need monitoring) you might find the sneaking diminishes.

 

I have never heard a super low key mom complain about lying and sneaking so I think it may tend towards being a reaction to parenting style.  

 

My dd will lie to avoid getting in trouble and I know right well its my fault she avoids the conflict by lying.

 

Yes, especially the bold.

[KrissiK]

Also I think generally kids are sneaky when they need or want control over things.  If you can find ways to give your kid choices (like wrt sneaking snacks- make a healthy snack area which the child can choose from independently and doesnt need monitoring) you might find the sneaking diminishes.

 

I have never heard a super low key mom complain about lying and sneaking so I think it may tend towards being a reaction to parenting style.  

 

My dd will lie to avoid getting in trouble and I know right well its my fault she avoids the conflict by lying.

 

Could be. Maybe a super low key mom can be low key because she doesn't have to worry about her kid lying. Parenting styles could be a reaction to the child, not necessarily the other way around. My parenting style is different with each of my children. I'm much more relaxed toward my 7 year old dd, who has good judgement and common sense (for a 7 year old). When it comes to things like food, she's moderate, she has a good balance of saving and spending her money, she's responsible, she does her chores right away. So, I'm much more relaxed with her. I can generally trust her. She keeps her word.

 

My 10 year old DS, who I have the most trouble with has a lot of trouble with self-control. He's addicted to junk food, so I really have to keep an eye on that. He's the one who sneaks and steals treats, money absolutely burns a hole in his pocket - he'll spend every cent he has just to be spending it, as soon as he gets it, I have to remind him 20 times to do his chores and then he only does it enough to get by, he lies.... Yes, I have a very tight rein on this child.

[Guest submarines]

Also I think generally kids are sneaky when they need or want control over things.  If you can find ways to give your kid choices (like wrt sneaking snacks- make a healthy snack area which the child can choose from independently and doesnt need monitoring) you might find the sneaking diminishes.

 

I have never heard a super low key mom complain about lying and sneaking so I think it may tend towards being a reaction to parenting style.  

 

My dd will lie to avoid getting in trouble and I know right well its my fault she avoids the conflict by lying.

 

:iagree:

[Guest submarines]

Maybe a super low key mom recognizes that dishonesty in a child is no indication that you are raising a sociopath but rather just a phase or something.

 

 

My friend deals with lying by empathizing:

 

Honey, you wish you had not taken the last piece of Godiva bc you are afraid mommy is going to be upset with you.  

 

 

(This real world mommy is upset and would rather eat chocolate than empathize but blah blah blah big girl panties and etc).

 

But seriously a lying 6 yr old is likely developmental not psychopathic.

 

And most ten yr olds would buy junk food and avoid chores.  A tight rein seems like a waste of time if it isnt fixing the problem.  Prob just hinders the relationship.

Brilliant.  :hurray:

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I reading through this, the child is 6. That is pretty normal six year old behavior.  Calm reactions, and encouraging the truth will go a long way to helping solve the problem in the long run.

[Free]

And she's constantly sneaking things she knows she isn't supposed to have: treats, extra markers, etc. I put them up high out of her reach, but somehow, when I'm not looking, she figures out a way to climb up and get them. It's unbelievable. She asks me for things, like my bracelets, and I say no (because my bracelets aren't dress-ups), and the next day, I find my bracelets buried in her drawer.

 

It is absolutely age appropriate for 6 year olds to want treats, markers and mommy's bracelets. It would be far less frustrating for you and for her, if you could think of ways to meet her half way.

 

For example explaining to her that your bracelet is very expensive and losing it or damaging it would make you very sad. You can come up with alternatives together, for example wearing it for a little while in your presence. She is more likely to follow the ideas that she has come up with herself.

[kiwik]

Warning about the godly tomatoes website; it advocates some pretty harsh discipline. I agree with the idea of tomato staking, but I call it being mom's helper. I can supervise the child, monitoring and correcting behavior. I also agree with the positive attention; when my kids act out, sometimes they just need more love.

I read it. More attention seems to help a lot with my kids. If your kid is misbehaving it is always good to ask "have they honestly been getting enough attention?". But even if it were legal, setting your child up to fail and then spanking her seems silly. If the child is not old enough to resist the faucet then don't put them near it until they are. Also some of the questions purported to be parents of VERY young children which I found scary.

 

In the OPs case though maybe keeping her child with her would help work out what the problem is or at least keep her out of trouble until she works out a better understanding of truth.

 

Another thing I was told is don't lie to your kids. If you say did you do something when you know for a fact they did you are being dishonest.

[Aspasia]

Warning about the godly tomatoes website; it advocates some pretty harsh discipline. I agree with the idea of tomato staking, but I call it being mom's helper. I can supervise the child, monitoring and correcting behavior. I also agree with the positive attention; when my kids act out, sometimes they just need more love.

Totally agree with this. I like the basic idea, but when I read the Q & A's, i don't agree so much. I'm just sticking with the idea of close supervision.

[Spy Car]

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch07.php

I would be very careful here, as the methods tread the line of abuse. Hitting children is not the answer.

 

Bill

[ErinE]

Totally agree with this. I like the basic idea, but when I read the Q & A's, i don't agree so much. I'm just sticking with the idea of close supervision.

Yes, I think the idea of having them help me is more beneficial (to them) than tying (staking) them to me. They are making our family life better and I praise them for all the help they are providing.

 

I've found lying and sneaking to be common at this age in my two eldest. One child was horrible at it; the other wouldn't let butter melt in the mouth. I really try not to set up situations for lying; from experience and posts here, I realized it doesn't help for me to question when I already know the answer. I state the rule (no lying, no sneaking, etc). After the denial, I state the reason, "It upsets me" or "It makes a mess".

[idnib]

When dh is around and reminds her of a rule, she follows it. When I'm here and I remind her of a rule, she follows it until I'm not looking and then does whatever she wants.

 

This is actually the thing that jumped out at me the most.

 

A child who's not developmentally ready, needs more attention, is going through a lying/sneaking phase, has first-child syndrome, etc. should be having problems following the rules from either parent, no? Can one say a child is not developmentally capable of following the rules when she does for one parent but not the other?

 

Does DH do something different than you? Is he better about doing what he says he will? Is he more likely to issue consequences?

[Mom-ninja.]

I'm reading this book right now. It is helpful. Here are some of my favorite parts:

 

"Be alert to ascribing ulterior motives to your child. He is not out to get you. He does not want to hurt you (except, perhaps, if he feels you hurt him)."

 

"No, it's unlikely he planned to disobey. Edison-trait children are not given to premeditation."

 

"Yes, he'll go as far as he can. No, it's not to aggravate you."

 

"Yes, he chooses his own version of the truth. No, it's not because he wants a lie to come between you. To him, it is a means to an end. He anticipates criticism or punishment if you know the truth. So he creates a fiction to protect himself."

 

"When you feel provoked by your child's responses, try not to take it personally."

 

And my favorite......

 

"Here is an exercise to help restore your faith. Take a deep breath, close your eyes, and relax. Now cradle your arms as you did when you held your child as a baby. Think back on what it felt like to hold your infant. Pretend you are holding him right now. Let his innocence touch you and help you remember. That innocence still lives inside your child today. Look for it. It's there."

 

Also....when you say you feel as if your dd does not respect you, think of this:

 

"The truth is that you matter a great deal to your child. See yourself through his eyes. He depends on you to meet his needs. You can survive alone in this world. He cannot." 

 

 

Basically, your dd's behavior has nothing do to with disrespect. She sounds like she has some wonderful traits.

[Aspasia]

This is actually the thing that jumped out at me the most.

 

A child who's not developmentally ready, needs more attention, is going through a lying/sneaking phase, has first-child syndrome, etc. should be having problems following the rules from either parent, no? Can one say a child is not developmentally capable of following the rules when she does for one parent but not the other?

 

Does DH do something different than you? Is he better about doing what he says he will? Is he more likely to issue consequences?

I am definitely more consistent than dh. Definitely more likely to issue consequences. I actually worry that her behavior is rooted in resentment of me. I'm the enforcer, I'm the restricter of all good things (like treats and television, which dh issues liberally when I'm not around). I think there might be something to what pp said about parenting styles. I am not the most relaxed mom. Maybe my rigidity drives her sneakiness?