Very Aggressive Child -- WWYD

[Purple Cat]

We have somewhat known some fellow homeschoolers for a year or so, but have recently started becoming better friends, doing a few things together.   She has two sons, one almost 3 years older and one same-age child.   At the end of a playdate at our house, her younger child came out and said her older son and my son were hitting each other with toy weapons.  We immediately went in.  My son was sobbing uncontrollably, and did so for some time.  Her older son then went in and kicked his younger brother in the private parts, making him cry very hard. 

 

My son told me her older son, (age 10), said he wanted my son, (age 7) and him to hit each other until someone gave up.  My son is literally less than half his weight.  He's teeny for his age and his weight is abnormally low.  Her son is 92 pounds; mine is 43 pounds.  Her older son took away my son's weapon during this game he suggested and beat him with a weapon 3 or 4 times.  Her older son also sat on my son. 

 

I was told that very recently her older son kicked a 5 year-old in the privates, twice in a short time-period.

 

I deeply regret not watching the play very, very closely.  At the same time, I cannot even fathom that type of behavior.  The mom just defends that her son doesn't know his own strength, and while upset over him kicking his brother in the privates, views the weapon fight as both boys just rough-housing.

 

I view it very differently.  I'm disturbed that her son would suggest that game and continue beating my son with an object after taking his weapon away, 3 or 4 times.  I imagine if a boy/man 200 pounds hit her son that she might feel the chill that is going up my spine.  

 

I'm frankly scared that her son has this apparent pattern of such treatment of younger, much smaller children.  I find his behavior disturbed and disturbing.  I won't ever allow my son to be near him without my eyes on him. 

 

I welcome thoughts and reactions.  Am I overreacting?  Or is this type of behavior as scary as I feel it is?

 

Edited to clarify age.  The aggressive child is NOT 8 like some posters had understandably misunderstood before I made the ages explicit. 

 

 

[abacus2]

So this older child is 8? It could be serious problems, but it could also be an 8 year old who is not exercising good judgement. 8 is not THAT much older than 5 so that I would expect mature older kid behavior like I would from say a 12 year old. Clearly this child was behaving horribly, but IMHO this is not outside the range of normal for an 8 year old boy on a bad day. I am sorry your son was hurt.

 

ETA: In no way am I suggest future unsupervised playdates. Kids with poor judgement aren't to be trusted any more than aggressive ones deliberately out to hurt those around them.

[City Mouse]

Not over reacting, but there is not much you can do about her parenting style.

 

I would never have that boy out of my sight though. Honestly I would probably give him one more chance under close supervision. If that ends badly then never again.

 

I have had my son and his friends (same age friends) play similar games, but the next few times "Bob" wanted to come over I told him no and why not. I did eventually let Bob come back to play and he did behave better then. However, I do have a never that is a few years older who that I do not let my son around unsupervised due to aggressive behavior.

[Purple Cat]

The aggressive child is 10, not 8 years-old.

 

[Ravin]

Because the mother is in denial and making excuses, I would probably require significantly greater supervision at any further playdates. Better yet, invite the younger brother to play with your son without the older one.

 

At the rate this kid is going, he's going to wind up in juvenile detention, especially if the mother continues to deny the seriousness of his behavior.

 

It would not be irrational at this point to file a police report about the child's behavior. It WAS assault, against both your son and his younger brother. If the mother does nothing to reign him in, it amounts to letting her older son abuse her younger one, even aside from what he's doing to children outside the family. In my state, that's potentially felonious behavior on the mother's part. Not that it necessarily should come to that, but it sounds like the woman needs a wake-up call.

[Ravin]

double post

[Χά�ων]

Run, don't walk, far far away from the family.

[kbutton]

No excuses for the boy's behavior or his mother's response. However it is entirely possible that an immature boy could see this on TV and then act it out. It could be a very recent development and out of character. If you can help the mother see how serious this is, it would benefit her and her son. He may also have some subtle issues that are not obvious to her that require him to need more explicit training and supervision. To call the police as another poster suggested before talking to the mom could put her in a more extreme circumstance than is warranted if she is responsive to your concerns. I would not trust this child or make my kids spend time with him, but I would try to talk with the mom first. If you have a mutual friend that has seen this situation and shares your concerns, maybe that friend could help you talk to her.

[Luanne]

If something isn't done about this son and soon, he will end up in jail.  This kind of behavior cannot be tolerated.  If the mother does nothing, she and her son will find out the hard way that this is NOT normal behavior.  Immature or not, he still needs to be stopped and corrected.

[Spryte]

You're not over-reacting.

 

If that happened here, there would be no more play dates with anyone in that family.  

[Word Nerd]

If that happened here, I would put a stop to the playdates. The mother's attitude about her son's violent behavior is almost as concerning as his actions themselves. (I think calling the police would be an overreaction at this point, but if his violent tendencies aren't checked, he's headed toward a situation where that would be warranted.)

[5LittleMonkeys]

You are not overreacting.  I would not allow any further playdates unless you are watching every single move that kid makes.  If he shows aggressive behavior (and I'm not talking about normal play fighting that boys do...I'm talking about what you described above) toward ANY other child in your presence I would simply explain to your friend that you find his behavior to be far too aggressive and that you'd prefer not to have him around your son until she can help him learn how to behave appropriately.  It may end the friendship but in the long run it may be best since it may make her take a hard look at the situation and realize that she'd better reign him in. 

 

It's possible that she really does know it's a problem but doesn't know how to fix it and her excuses are a cover up because she's embarrassed.  Not your problem, but just putting it out there as another alternative to her being blind to the seriousness of it.  I've found that parents are usually pretty well aware of bad behavior but are often ill equipped to fix it so they take the "if I act like it's not a big deal it will go away" path not realizing that they are setting themselves and their children up for even more issues down the road. 

 

Sorry that happened to your little guy, but glad he's got a momma bear to protect him. ;)

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have a DS10 and a DS7. No way is that OK. Just reading that made me queasy. "Boys will be boys" does not involve beating on someone smaller than you (or anyone, but especially someone smaller/younger than you!) until they cry! And to keep hitting someone while they are already/still crying? And unarmed?! No. And kicking brother (or anyone!) below the belt?! No. You are not overreacting at all. That mom is way under reacting. That boy is a bully, to say the least. My boy (either one, regardless of age) would be on lockdown for that kind of behavior. For a long time.

 

Do my boys play kinda rough sometimes? Yes. But it is always on mutually agreeable terms, mine included. Most likely, I would not let my kids play with the older brother again at all, even with supervision, honestly. Poor younger brother. If you could arrange for only the younger boys to play, I would allow that. Tricky though...

[EKS]

You are not overreacting.  I'd stay away from that family.

[Meriwether]

I don't mind rough play. Dh and the kids were just playing some game with the TKD sparring weapons.  Lots of hits.  Even Dd3 was in on it.  I'm sure some of the hits stung a bit even with helmets on, but there is no hitting to try to hurt.  There is no hitting below the belt.  There is no hitting when someone wants to be done.  If the game isn't fun for everyone, it isn't fun for anyone.

 

I wouldn't allow that kid in my house again.

[zoobie]

Trust your gut! I wouldn't get together any more, period.

[Farrar]

Yeah, that's all kinds of wrong.  No way would I let my ds play with the older son again if they had happened and there had been no consequences, no amends, and the parent had thought it wasn't a big deal.  If you want to foster a relationship between the younger son and your ds, then I'd invite him over without his brother.  But for us, realistically, I probably would just not bother because it's tricky from a practical perspective, not to mention all the potential pitfalls of dealing with a mom who is letting that go on.

[BigMamaBird]

I wouldn't do any more play dates with them and if she asked I would straight up tell her that it's because of her son's behavior and her failure to take it seriously.  If someone treated me that way I'd never see them again, I sure am not going to let them treat my kid that way.

[Pen]

What were the toy weapons?  How much damage could be inflicted?  Could it have potentially been permanently maiming or even deadly?  versus something like a nerf sponge toy weapon where it might have been emotionally upsetting and bullying behaviour, but not likely to lead to serious physical injury?  How at 10 did the child learn about kicking in the privates?  

 

For me the question would be whether to stay totally away for the sake of my own child, or whether to try to take some action for the sake of at least the younger child in the other family, and maybe also because the older child actually sounds in need of intervention help asap also.

 

I would not allow continued play with the older child even with close supervision because something like a kick in privates or a shove into concrete can be administered far faster than an adult can get there to stop it.  The parental attitude would worry me even with regard to play with the younger, though maybe the younger needs not to be penalized for the elder's behaviour.

[SorrelZG]

.

[Purple Cat]

A heart-felt thank you to all the people who took the time to share their concern and ideas.  I appreciate the validation.  I spoke with his mother more.  She promised him that he would receive no consequences for anything he had done to my son.  She just wanted him to tell her.  He omitted many, many details (sitting on my son, hitting after taking away my son's weapon -- a toy that when so horribly misused could have injured someone, telling my son he wanted to play this).  She stands steadfast by his version that "we were just playing, and gee, I guess we might have gotten a little cared away."  She doesn't want to upset him by even asking him about the details that my pathologically honest son gave -- many without even being asked (such as "who started it.").  She even denied that her son weighed what he told my children that he weighed, saying last she weighed him he was 8 pounds less, though she adds that he has grown, which to me seems more minimization/denial.  I'm chilled to the bone.  My son, simply put, could have been killed.  I'm ill that I didn't know.  Raised with 3 brothers, where I felt like I had seen it all on boys being boys, it never even occurred to me that someone could or would do that to my son, let alone an appreciably older child more than double my son's size.  My son is now scared of him.  And I think that fear is wise.  Thanks for pointing out that even if stayed eyeball to eyeball on my son if the older child was anywhere around that I could never prevent a kick to his privates, etc., because it could be done so fast.   Very sad because they really like the younger child.

 

[abacus2]

Ok, now I think I am reading correctly that a 10 year old kicked his 7 year old brother and another 5 year old kid below the belt? Yes, that is very concerning aggressive behavior.

[MusicMama]

It sounds like your son has no desire to have contact with the older boy again.  Don't invite him over, and if asked to play simply say my son isn't available.  If she pushes for more clarification, give her the truth, that your son does not like playing the same things as her son.  Don't say "Your son is a bully/jerk/cruel child."  She will most likely defend her son until she is blue in the face.  Statements like "my son doesn't like playing the same things as your son" are not as condeming, so there's not as much she could make a stink about. 

[Ravin]

I hate to say this, but I'd think twice about having the younger boy over to your home. Given the level of the mother's denial, if the younger boy was injured and came to your home, you could find yourself or your son blamed for it.

 

I would also consider calling the police. If the mother isn't going to discipline or control him, he is a danger to other children, including his brother. Obviously you talking to her isn't sufficient to clue her in.

[Pen]

I hate to say this, but I'd think twice about having the younger boy over to your home. Given the level of the mother's denial, if the younger boy was injured and came to your home, you could find yourself or your son blamed for it.

 

I would also consider calling the police. If the mother isn't going to discipline or control him, he is a danger to other children, including his brother. Obviously you talking to her isn't sufficient to clue her in.

 

 

Or, maybe she is clued in and denial is a way of if there is a serious injury or worse having herself be less culpable than if she admits she knows he is a danger to others and is not taking action. ... like a cigarette manufacturer and whether it can claim it didn't know there was a danger and thus avoid liability.     ?????   Or maybe it is just a psychological and emotional denial.   Or maybe a family where that is considered "normal"--which is really scary.  Is there any Dad in the picture?

[Alte Veste Academy]

Or maybe she likes that her son is "tough" and secretly thinks that the OP's son is being a baby about the whole thing.  :glare: This would be my go-to guess because I had a friend like this. HAD. Ugh. People can have some seriously screwed up ideas about what "manly" behavior should look like.

[Garga]

I am scared for the little brother. What can be done to help that little guy? The police? CPS?

[kbutton]

I am sorry that the mother was unresponsive. I would write a note in my calendar about what happened in case you are ever inadvertently thrown into a situation with this mother again, such as on a sports team or at a playground. At least you'll have some documentation. We had some neighborhood bullying going on (kids who had been bullied passing it on and lying), and it was really difficult since there was no getting away from the situation. I documented all exchanges just in case.

[Pen]

I am sorry that the mother was unresponsive. I would write a note in my calendar about what happened in case you are ever inadvertently thrown into a situation with this mother again, such as on a sports team or at a playground. At least you'll have some documentation. We had some neighborhood bullying going on (kids who had been bullied passing it on and lying), and it was really difficult since there was no getting away from the situation. I documented all exchanges just in case.

 

 

 I think that is definitely a good idea.  As with where someone above pointed out that if the younger ds were playing with your ds, injuries from the older brother could get blamed on your ds--that could happen even now, even if you never get together with them again, such as the kick that already happened, or some such kick, could be discovered a year from now to have caused some serious problem and it could be blamed on your ds, for example, all sorts of things could happen with a situation like this, and blaming others can definitely happen.  Even if you choose not to bring this to the attention of authorities at this time, documentation certainly sounds like a good idea for your own and your son's protection.  I would probably start a file, not rely on an old calendar being findable.  

[lea1]

What were the toy weapons?  How much damage could be inflicted?  Could it have potentially been permanently maiming or even deadly?  versus something like a nerf sponge toy weapon where it might have been emotionally upsetting and bullying behaviour, but not likely to lead to serious physical injury?  How at 10 did the child learn about kicking in the privates?

We watch very little TV at our house but, there was a time when we starting watching America's Funniest Home Videos once a week as a family thing. It didn't take very long for us all to notice that one of the main themes is accidental hits to boys' privates. My two are 7 YO and they started doing that to each other during their rough housing. Of course, dh and I both talked to them and put a stop to it. I think between watching TV and just learning something from a neighbor child or cousin or something, a boy child could easily learn about this. I can remember several times when the boys were even much younger (3, 4 & 5) when they were horsing around with dh and accidentally hit him in the privates. So they learned about it even earlier but did not see it in a 'funny' way until they saw it on TV and heard everyone laughing about it.

 

OP, I would not let my sons be around that boy again without strict supervision. I'm sorry your little guy had to go through that. My two 7 YO sons love to play with the almost 4 YO next door. Their mom is always telling me how they are so good with her son. I do think you have to keep an eye out though, when olders are playing with youngers with a big age gap. Kids can do stupid things, especially if they have not been taught otherwise.

[Mom2TheTeam]

I would document it like the above poster said.  Then, I would never get together with this family again unless it was a group thing and it couldn't be avoided.  If that were the case, I would watch my children and hers like a hawk. 

 

I have 5 boys...mine are younger with the oldest being 7, almost 8, but that is WAY beyond boys being boys.  I cannot imagine how you must have felt and how scared your son must have been.  I know my son would probably have some emotional fall out to deal with from that.  He is very sensitive.  Hugs to both of you!  And, to the younger brother. :(

[mommaklee]

Wow!  Calling police/ CPS for a snotty bully?  For real people, CPS is there for kids whose parents don't feed them because they are too high on drugs, or they are so neglectful that the kids are in real and present danger for serious physical harm or even death, NOT for a 10 year old who kicks his brother, is rough with friends, and lies about it.

 

[QuirkyKapers]

I wouldn't have a play date again unless it was at a public place where you could watch the interaction while conversing with the mother.  IMO, mother is underreacting.  Perhaps she really doesn't see the problem or is tired of dealing with the problem.  Either way, protect your child and be watchful when your child is playing with hers.  :grouphug:   So sorry that your son was hurt. 

[Luanne]

Wow!  Calling police/ CPS for a snotty bully?  For real people, CPS is there for kids whose parents don't feed them because they are too high on drugs, or they are so neglectful that the kids are in real and present danger for serious physical harm or even death, NOT for a 10 year old who kicks his brother, is rough with friends, and lies about it.

 

There needs to be some intervention.   I disagree with you.  He could seriously injure his younger brother and it is clear his mother is going to do NOTHING about it.

[Pen]

Wow!  Calling police/ CPS for a snotty bully?  For real people, CPS is there for kids whose parents don't feed them because they are too high on drugs, or they are so neglectful that the kids are in real and present danger for serious physical harm or even death, NOT for a 10 year old who kicks his brother, is rough with friends, and lies about it.

 

The person in best position to judge severity and so on, as well what her own needs are in regard to place such a call or not is the OP, and thus whether such a call would or would not be appropriate.  The situation as described appears to be potentially something that could be construed as criminal assault and battery.  There is actual danger of physical harm or even death that can come from such behavior.  One would wish that the parent would be trying to stop it.  However, without that, There is also, with no parent appearing to be interested in putting a stop to it, a danger of escalation.   I live in one of the areas that had a child open fire on other children at school.  I would not dismiss such behavior as nothing--dismissing it is what is likely to cause escalation, and both bullies and also their victims can become the ones who do things like Columbine, Thurston, etc..

 

 If there were a school psychologist or principal to seek help from, that might be helpful, but I assume these other children are also homeschooled.  Police can easily ignore it if they do not consider it important, or if they are too busy with more pressing issues.  OTOH, a warning visit from a policeman might help (or hurt--one cannot foretell the future).  All too often there are also cases of people ignoring and looking the other way from problems because they do not want to get involved.  

 

One wonders if all would have been fine if the younger brother had not gone to tell the adults what was happening.  And having possibly gotten kicked for tattling the younger brother may be reluctant to seek help next time, so the next child in OP's son's position may not be so lucky as he was.

[IHaveNoIdeawhatIAmDoing]

I would be more concerned with the mother not taking the problem seriously than with the boy's behavior. Sometimes kids are too rough, sometimes someone gets bit/hit/scratched/kicked. It's the parent's job to put the kabosh on it, and if that's not happening, the behavior isn't going to change any time soon. 

 

If you really consider her a friend, I would say to talk to her again about your concerns. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy."

[Pen]

I would be more concerned with the mother not taking the problem seriously than with the boy's behavior. Sometimes kids are too rough, sometimes someone gets bit/hit/scratched/kicked. It's the parent's job to put the kabosh on it, and if that's not happening, the behavior isn't going to change any time soon. 

 

If you really consider her a friend, I would say to talk to her again about your concerns. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy."

 

That sounds worth a try.  

 

It appears from the information given that the other mother is not trying to stop the behavior, and the child sounds old enough, big enough, and strong enough to do real damage.

 

However, I do not know for certain from what was described whether or not the mother is or is not trying to stop it.   I do not know if these are 3 new occurrence incidents perhaps on 2 days, or a long pattern over time.   No consequences for that incident does not necessarily preclude her telling her son that in no circumstances can any such thing happen again ever, and putting meaningful consequences to any future infraction.   I wonder about what if anything was said /done at the moment of walking into room and seeing the situation between OP's son and the other boy, or if that was not visible at the time, then immediately after the kick to younger brother:  What did the mother do/say etc. about whatever she herself witnessed?

 

I still do not know what the weapon toys were.  It is unfortunate that weapon toys were available, but nearly anything can be turned into a weapon if one is of a mind to do that.   

 

It is also my observation that sometimes when older children try to play with younger ones, the playthings are unsuited for the older ones to use them as intended and other ways of using them that are more entertaining to the older ones get invented (this can even be true of a child who has outgrown his own toys).  A 10 year old may find it hard to play in a fun way with younger children in a room with toys geared to 7 year old level, for example--that may or may not have been the case, and even if it was, it does not make the violence right, but it would be something to be aware of in trying to create mixed age play groups.    We had a problem a few years ago with a boy, indeed also 10, playing with my son, then younger.  The 10 year old turned all toys he had into things to throw either at other things (trees, walls) or as it then developed, at people.  The boy had loads of toys, but oddly enough no ball or anything that seemed suitable for the one thing he liked to do.  I suspect he had sensory issues and a need to launch things in the air.  I do not know, I do not know if something suitable like a basketball hoop and probably softer ball to throw until it became clear he was over aiming at people.  As with this case, once I came to understand what was going on, and that the mothers of the other boy were not going to stop the throwing at people including my son part, no more play together was allowed.

 

It also might be the case that having things available to allow a safe outlet for more aggressive play is needed.  Whether that be soft foam pillow fight type toys, or some such.  With suitable soft toys, in an area without sharp objects to fall on, etc., the game the older boy wanted to play of hitting each other until someone gave up (or if adults had been supervising, maybe there could have been timed rounds) might have been much more acceptable.

 

This was also at the OP's house as I understand it, and as such as the hosts, knowing what toys were available for use, perhaps suggesting suitable games, and some of the other decisions as to supervision or not would be at least to a significant extent under OP control, not so much the other parent's.  

[bobbeym]

OP, if your son has bruises or obvious injuries, or was hit in the head and at risk of a concussion, I would take him to his doctor's office for a check-up.  Explain to the doctor what happened so it's in your DS' medical record as well as your own personal documentation.  I'm glad your DS has you to stand up for him.

 

If this happened to one of my boys, we'd have no further contact with them and I wouldn't hesitate to tell the mother why, even if she didn't believe me.  My boys are 4 years apart and there is no possible way I'd condone that kind of behavior between themselves or to someone else. 

 

DH has a young cousin who is only a few years older than DS19. The boys played together frequently until the cousin starting becoming increasingly more aggressive to other kids. (We stop visiting with DH's aunt and uncle at that point.) The aunt and uncle though cousin's behavior was funny and cute and always laughed it off when he was little. They weren't laughing so hard when he served time in juvie at 12 for breaking and entering, or at 14 for aggravated robbery, or at 18 when he was convicted as an accessory to a drive by shooting.    We tried to intervene and offered for him to move in with us in high school so he could get away from the gang he was running with, but aunt just yelled at us, saying we were crazy and needed to mind our own business.  It was a sad day to see that sweet little boy we remembered on the news in the front seat of the drive-by vehicle. 

 

I feel bad for that other mom, who is not helping her son in any way by being in denial about his behavior.  I pray she wakes up and gets him help before the consequences are too severe.

[Pen]

OP, if your son has bruises or obvious injuries, or was hit in the head and at risk of a concussion, I would take him to his doctor's office for a check-up.  Explain to the doctor what happened so it's in your DS' medical record as well as your own personal documentation.  I'm glad your DS has you to stand up for him.

 

If this happened to one of my boys, we'd have no further contact with them and I wouldn't hesitate to tell the mother why, even if she didn't believe me.  My boys are 4 years apart and there is no possible way I'd condone that kind of behavior between themselves or to someone else. 

 

DH has a young cousin who is only a few years older than DS19. The boys played together frequently until the cousin starting becoming increasingly more aggressive to other kids. (We stop visiting with DH's aunt and uncle at that point.) The aunt and uncle though cousin's behavior was funny and cute and always laughed it off when he was little. They weren't laughing so hard when he served time in juvie at 12 for breaking and entering, or at 14 for aggravated robbery, or at 18 when he was convicted as an accessory to a drive by shooting.    We tried to intervene and offered for him to move in with us in high school so he could get away from the gang he was running with, but aunt just yelled at us, saying we were crazy and needed to mind our own business.  It was a sad day to see that sweet little boy we remembered on the news in the front seat of the drive-by vehicle. 

 

I feel bad for that other mom, who is not helping her son in any way by being in denial about his behavior.  I pray she wakes up and gets him help before the consequences are too severe.

 

 

I agree.

[Purple Cat]

I didn't think I could be even more sickened, but I am. 

 

I did speak with his mother, and she told me that she had told her older son that she would NOT give him any consequences for anything he did to my son, but that she did want him to tell her what occurred.  Can you imagine a more effective way to communicate the irrelevance of his violence toward my son?  

 

As you might imagine, he told her little to none of what occurred.  He claims they simply were clashing Star Wars sabers and gee, some times, my son might have been hit by accident.  She stands by his version.  The prolonged, hard sobbing, the bruises all over his body, and his rigidity about exactness and honesty tell a far different story. 

 

His younger brother was kicked in the privates after telling the older brother, "Sorry.  I had to say something."  He told his mother it was simply an accident, and that he never intended to kick his younger brother in the privates.  She stands by his claim that it was an accident.  The 5 year-old she babysits has been kicked twice in the privates by her older son, once right in front of her.  She maintains that the 5 year-old, and his sister who confirmed it, are simply lying that her older son kicked the child in the privates.   She told his mother that he was lying because she knew nothing like that had occurred.   Funny how everybody else is lying about her son's violence. 

 

She had no response to being told that her older son had shoved my daughter against the wall.  She had no response to being told that her son threw away my son's robotic toy when he lost a game. 

 

Ironically, she wants me to prod my children to see how he played with them on other occasions.  (Yet, she believes only exactly what her son told her and dismisses everything my son said as a lie, by yet another child, about her son.)   

 

She told me that she doesn't want to say anything to her older son about his assault of my son because she doesn't want him to feel bad.  . . .  He's too dangerous for us to be around.  And the parental response is so sickening that I don't know how to have any type of a relationship with that.  To maintain any type of relationship would simply be to validate and agree that nothing happened to my son and to communicate and support that viciously assaulting him is permissible and to be encouraged. 

 

I'm thoroughly sickened.   As horrific and chilling as this older son's behavior has been, I'm more sickened and horrified by the mother's response.

[bobbeym]

She told me that she doesn't want to say anything to her older son about his assault of my son because she doesn't want him to feel bad.  . . .  He's too dangerous for us to be around.  And the parental response is so sickening that I don't know how to have any type of a relationship with that.  To maintain any type of relationship would simply be to validate and agree that nothing happened to my son and to communicate and support that viciously assaulting him is permissible and to be encouraged. 

 

I'm thoroughly sickened.   As horrific and chilling as this older son's behavior has been, I'm more sickened and horrified by the mother's response.

 

I agree with you, esp the part in bold.  I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of parents the willingly turn a blind eye to the behavior of their special snowflakes.

[Tanikit]

I would say that if your child does ever play with this child (or his brother for that matter) that you are present at all times and that you step in and actually speak to her son if he steps out of line - I would do this by saying that that is not acceptable behaviour and that he may not play with your child like that and that you expect him to apologise to your son. If his mother will not do it then you have to - usually when I have spoken to another child in front of their parent like that then the mother immediately supports me and insists on what I have said. It is not nice to discipline another parents child and it should not be necessary either, but you would be doing it to protect your own child and to demand basic human dignity and respect for all people.

 

Most children do listen to discipline from adults they know less well, however if he is really disrespectful and has bigger issues he may then try the bahviour more surreptitiously and then I would definitely not allow my child there again.

[Cricket]

She told me that she doesn't want to say anything to her older son about his assault of my son because she doesn't want him to feel bad. . . . .

That is hard to understand because when my kids do something to hurt someone else, I DO want them to feel bad! Good for you for protecting your son.

[IHaveNoIdeawhatIAmDoing]

the bruises all over his body

 

I'm confused. If he had bruises all over his body and, correct me if I'm wrong because there were a lot of other comments, you consider what happened to be an assault, why didn't you call the police?

[Pen]

I didn't think I could be even more sickened, but I am. 

 

I did speak with his mother, and she told me that she had told her older son that she would NOT give him any consequences for anything he did to my son, but that she did want him to tell her what occurred.  Can you imagine a more effective way to communicate the irrelevance of his violence toward my son?  

 

As you might imagine, he told her little to none of what occurred.  He claims they simply were clashing Star Wars sabers and gee, some times, my son might have been hit by accident.  She stands by his version.  The prolonged, hard sobbing, the bruises all over his body, and his rigidity about exactness and honesty tell a far different story. 

 

His younger brother was kicked in the privates after telling the older brother, "Sorry.  I had to say something."  He told his mother it was simply an accident, and that he never intended to kick his younger brother in the privates.  She stands by his claim that it was an accident.  The 5 year-old she babysits has been kicked twice in the privates by her older son, once right in front of her.  She maintains that the 5 year-old, and his sister who confirmed it, are simply lying that her older son kicked the child in the privates.   She told his mother that he was lying because she knew nothing like that had occurred.   Funny how everybody else is lying about her son's violence. 

 

She had no response to being told that her older son had shoved my daughter against the wall.  She had no response to being told that her son threw away my son's robotic toy when he lost a game. 

 

Ironically, she wants me to prod my children to see how he played with them on other occasions.  (Yet, she believes only exactly what her son told her and dismisses everything my son said as a lie, by yet another child, about her son.)   

 

She told me that she doesn't want to say anything to her older son about his assault of my son because she doesn't want him to feel bad.  . . .  He's too dangerous for us to be around.  And the parental response is so sickening that I don't know how to have any type of a relationship with that.  To maintain any type of relationship would simply be to validate and agree that nothing happened to my son and to communicate and support that viciously assaulting him is permissible and to be encouraged. 

 

I'm thoroughly sickened.   As horrific and chilling as this older son's behavior has been, I'm more sickened and horrified by the mother's response.

 

 

IMO photographs of the bruises and trip to doctor are in order.   And what you wrote above, to me, would indicate it being proper to place a call to police and Child Welfare ...   the former due to your son being injured, the latter because it sounds like there are 2, not just 1, 5 year old in danger, and also now the mention of something going on with a daughter as well, which I did not quite follow.  But it sounds like denial of things related to at least 3 and maybe 4 other children, and a home that is involved in babysitting others in addition to its own occupants.  If they do not consider it serious police and CPW can ignore it, but it does put the paper trail in place in case of anything else in future.  YMMV.

[swellmomma]

Just seeing this now.  I am more concerned about the mom's lack of concern than about the boy actually at this point.  Just yesterday while at daycamp, my ds9 took offense to something he thought someone said (basically he misunderstood and took offense) and punched the kid in the privates very hard.  He is staying with my mom, so when she went to pick him up she was told, now she was very upset with him, but I was downright mortified. He has been in trouble in other settings for hitting too.  He isn't intentionally bullying, but he does react with his fists first, and it is something we are working on.  There is no way I would chalk it up to boys being boys.  Ds is lucky he is with gramma because I would have made him miss today's fieldtrip, he goes to daycamp while there because she has to work, so he got off with writing an apology letter to the boy and the workers who had to spend time dealing with it and got to go.  Today he and boy were playing like they were best buds.  I would hate to see playdates end because of a stage in development the boy is working through, I hate when people refuse to ever let their kids play with my ds again because of an outburst.  BUT there can not be continued time spent with the family when the parent is not actually teaching the boy what is and is not acceptable behaviour.  Acting like an idiot and crossing the line are a major problem, and this boy needed to feel badly and be disciplined for it.  THe mom should be mortified that her son did that and have hauled him home to deal with it after he apologized for the actions, and he needs to be supervised more closely.  It is her actions more than his that would make me refuse any further playdates.  If I saw her react appropriately to address the behaviour and they were actively helping the boy make proper choices and treat people with proper respect I would likely still do playdates with more supervision.
 

At this point I would not involve the police, I have done so before when things were too far passed the line and I felt the parents weren't responding but generally not the first offense against my kids if the child is under the teen years.  I try to give benefit of the doubt and allow the parents to address it.  But if they do it again I do not hesistate involving the police especially if the parents are just blowing it off.  But it has never been a situation where it was a playdate with me there when that has been needed, it is generally things like the child approaching mine and the park and picking a fight kwim.

ETA: just reading the update now, I hadn't read it when I posted it.  The whole situation is much more than I thought.  I do think it would be appropriate to involve the authorities, this is much bigger than I thought when I read the OP

[Purple Cat]

The responses I have received here have been so valuable in helping me to process the incident and formulate plans and actions to protect my son.   I've appreciated the guidance that has been suggested.  I keep feeling that it would be ill-advised for me to detail further actions I've taken, beyond those involving  my family and the family of this child and mother.  I can appreciate how my silence could be misunderstood as "not" taking further action, and wanted to clarify.   I have.  I just keep feeling like at least right now, it would be ill-advised to detail that aspect publicly.   

 

[Pen]

I'm confused. If he had bruises all over his body and, correct me if I'm wrong because there were a lot of other comments, you consider what happened to be an assault, why didn't you call the police?

 

 

I am not OP, but I am going to guess that it is because it was writing it out, talking to the parent, thinking about it, getting replies here that helped to see the severity of the situation.   It is easy to not be sure of one's own thinking and not knowing if most people would regard that as boys will be boys--that was what OP wanted to know, was she overreacting.    A few people here thought yes, but the majority of us thought no.

 

Assault actually is only putting someone in fear--a mugging with no physical touching at all can be an assault, actual hitting is "battery".  If there are both it is assault and battery...or at least that is so in all the states I have lived in.   Some such designations can be dependent on and differ according to state penal codes.  So, one might say, "x assaulted and battered my son."  X has assaulted and battered several children.  X's mother is allowing it to happen and is doing childcare in her home.  To me that is pretty powerful.

[Pen]

Just seeing this now.  I am more concerned about the mom's lack of concern than about the boy actually at this point.  Just yesterday while at daycamp, my ds9 took offense to something he thought someone said (basically he misunderstood and took offense) and punched the kid in the privates very hard.  He is staying with my mom, so when she went to pick him up she was told, now she was very upset with him, but I was downright mortified. He has been in trouble in other settings for hitting too.  He isn't intentionally bullying, but he does react with his fists first, and it is something we are working on.  There is no way I would chalk it up to boys being boys.  Ds is lucky he is with gramma because I would have made him miss today's fieldtrip, he goes to daycamp while there because she has to work, so he got off with writing an apology letter to the boy and the workers who had to spend time dealing with it and got to go.  Today he and boy were playing like they were best buds.  I would hate to see playdates end because of a stage in development the boy is working through, I hate when people refuse to ever let their kids play with my ds again because of an outburst.  BUT there can not be continued time spent with the family when the parent is not actually teaching the boy what is and is not acceptable behaviour.  Acting like an idiot and crossing the line are a major problem, and this boy needed to feel badly and be disciplined for it.  THe mom should be mortified that her son did that and have hauled him home to deal with it after he apologized for the actions, and he needs to be supervised more closely.  It is her actions more than his that would make me refuse any further playdates.  If I saw her react appropriately to address the behaviour and they were actively helping the boy make proper choices and treat people with proper respect I would likely still do playdates with more supervision.

 

At this point I would not involve the police, I have done so before when things were too far passed the line and I felt the parents weren't responding but generally not the first offense against my kids if the child is under the teen years.  I try to give benefit of the doubt and allow the parents to address it.  But if they do it again I do not hesistate involving the police especially if the parents are just blowing it off.  But it has never been a situation where it was a playdate with me there when that has been needed, it is generally things like the child approaching mine and the park and picking a fight kwim.

 

ETA: just reading the update now, I hadn't read it when I posted it.  The whole situation is much more than I thought.  I do think it would be appropriate to involve the authorities, this is much bigger than I thought when I read the OP

 

The huge difference is that you are trying to fix the situation and not in denial about it.      

 

Another difference may (or may not) be the difference in age, size and strength between the children.

[swellmomma]

The huge difference is that you are trying to fix the situation and not in denial about it.      

 

Another difference may (or may not) be the difference in age, size and strength between the children.

I agree completely which is why I explained that my concern was more about the mother's reaction than the boy, I was using the situation with my ds as an example of why I may not be that concerned with a child that acted that way.  I was already concerned with the mother's actions and then read the update and was even more sure that this was a bigger situation than a boy acting like a brat.