Looking for math that's considered "behind"

[shinyhappypeople]

So... 9-almost-10yo DD has decided that it is vitally important to her to be working in 5th grade books next year (if she'd continued in PS, she'd be a "5th grader", albeit a young one - Sept. birthday). There's quite a bit of background to this that I won't bore you with, but just trust me that I want to honor her feelings.

 

Unfortunately, she's working at a late-3rd grade level in math. By the time we start up in the fall she will have memorized her multiplication tables and (knock on wood) learned simple division, and would probably do okay with most 4th grade books.

 

She doesn't have any learning disabilities, afaik, she's just been reallllly unmotivated.

 

So, I need a math book that has a big, glorious 5 on the cover, but that won't overwhelm her.

 

I can't think of anything except Saxon 5/4. It actually might work really well, but she likes color and not too much writing. OTOH, maybe knowing she's working in a 5th grade book would motivate her to stick with it. (yes, I know mostly 4th graders use 5/4... but it's legit for a 5th grader. It has the 5 on the cover!)

 

I also have a 5th grade school textbook (Houghton Mifflin, maybe?) that looks okay. I suppose we could work through it slooooowly together.

 

Learn Math Fast is ungraded, but if I got the first two volumes and told her (truthfully) that it goes all the way through 6th (or 7th?) grade math, she might be cool with it.

 

We looked through the Teaching Textbooks placement test and she'd place in grade 4 (she doesn't know "medium" division, e.g. 69/3, or bigger multiplication like 127x12, and we haven't covered adding/subtracting with decimals, though that one's pretty easy to teach)

 

Any other ideas for me? I really want to honor her feelings about this issue. It's HUGE for her.

[Dmmetler]

I'd suggest looking at the various "summer" and enrichment workbooks. In my experience, they're at LEAST a grade behind, sometimes more, which would let her have a book with 5th grade on the cover, but working on easier content. It's not a full curriculum, but would be good additional material, particularly if you end up going with a non-graded book.

[kristi26]

Math-U-See has no grade levels, she'd just work where she's at so that could be an option...

[PachiSusan]

Saxon 5/4 in the real world is for an advanced 4th grader or a normal 5th grader. It is not behind - it's on task for a 5th grader.

 

I think 5/4 would work perfectly for you because it's reviewing older concepts and introducing newer concepts. She can practice what she knows and get mastery of it and learn the new things a little slower.

 

If she likes color and cartoony characters, she will NOT like Saxon, I can guarantee you that. LOL My daughter is a color, flashy type kid and she does not like the "boring" look of it, but she likes the way things are taught. We've tried out a few lessons to see how it works. We will be using it for 5th grade next year.

[PentecostalMom]

Using Saxon 5/4 is not considered "behind" for her. It is for advanced 4th graders, or average 5th graders. It is perfectly okay for your dd to be average. :)

[PachiSusan]

Using Saxon 5/4 is not considered "behind" for her. It is for advanced 4th graders, or average 5th graders. It is perfectly okay for your dd to be average. :)

 

 

I just said that too!! LOL

[shinyhappypeople]

Using Saxon 5/4 is not considered "behind" for her. It is for advanced 4th graders, or average 5th graders. It is perfectly okay for your dd to be average. :)

 

 

Yes, it is. :)

 

When we were homeschooling through the public charter program :ack2: Saxon 5/4 was designated for 4th graders in order to meet state content standards. So, I have it in my head that the important number is the second one. But, I think I have it backwards.

[JudoMom]

 

Yes, it is. :)

 

When we were homeschooling through the public charter program :ack2: Saxon 5/4 was designated for 4th graders in order to meet state content standards. So, I have it in my head that the important number is the second one. But, I think I have it backwards.

 

 

You have it right, according to the Saxon homeschool placement test: the bottom number is "average" grade placement, and the top number is for kids who need a bit more work.

[JudoMom]

MCP Mathematics just has letters on the cover, no grade level, and it's a two color workbook, so not much writing.

 

For Saxon 5/4, you could do the writing for her. But there is a lot of writing--so much so that even though it's my program of choice, I won't be able to use it with my Severely Pencil Allergic son next year because I don't have time to scribe for him and there is no way he can copy all the problems.

[Arcadia]

When we were homeschooling through the public charter program :ack2: Saxon 5/4 was designated for 4th graders in order to meet state content standards. So, I have it in my head that the important number is the second one. But, I think I have it backwards.

 

If you are not taking the state standardized test, I'll won't worry about correlation and just choose whatever works. The PDF is correlated to California math standard. I think we are in the same state but I might have remembered wrongly.

http://www.ogcs.org/...Saxon65-4th.pdf

[Farrar]

Could you do Math Mammoth Blue Series? Or the Key to books? Or Life of Fred? No grade levels listed on those.

[LEK]

I agree with using a program with no grade level on it. IMO there is no point trying to jump ahead a level because she wants a book at her age level if her ability is just not there yet. You are better off taking your time and mastering the basics rather than jump into a program that is just too hard, that is likely to cause even more problems in the future and may even be a step backwards for her.

 

Alternatively, maybe try her on the MM blue series to work on the concepts she needs to master to start on TT5. If you start now and cover just those concepts she might just manage to place in TT5 by the new school year.

[shinyhappypeople]

Thanks all. I appreciate the input :)

 

Does anyone have experience with Jump Math?

 

The idea here isn't to force her into material that's too advanced for her. I'm looking for something that introduces topics a year or so later than most other math programs or is remedial (without looking remedial)

 

The big shiny "5" on the cover seems silly to us as adults, but it's a very, very big deal to her. Feeling "below grade level" is demoralizing to her. She *needs* the 5.

[Guest]

Teaching Textbooks 5 would probably work for her. Many people say it is behind, and most kids test ahead.

[ocelotmom]

Knowing Mathematics covers concepts from basic addition up through grade level (with 4th, 5th, and 6th grade editions). But they don't have grade levels on the cover. I've found that many many standard textbooks don't, presumably so that they can be used in different grades without the fact that someone is working ahead/behind being glaringly obvious. (When I find textbooks at thrift stores and so on, I can very rarely tell at a glance what grade they're intended for.)

 

Teaching Textbooks is often considered "behind".

[JudoMom]

Thanks all. I appreciate the input :)

 

Does anyone have experience with Jump Math?

 

The idea here isn't to force her into material that's too advanced for her. I'm looking for something that introduces topics a year or so later than most other math programs or is remedial (without looking remedial)

 

The big shiny "5" on the cover seems silly to us as adults, but it's a very, very big deal to her. Feeling "below grade level" is demoralizing to her. She *needs* the 5.

 

 

I did the JUMP at Home Math 4 with my middle son 2 years ago when he was discouraged. It went well. Someone on here used the whole JUMP math program, but I can't remember who it was.

[ByGrace3]

What about Math Mammoth -- buy the download and just put the fifth grade cover on the fourth grade book?

[Rubix]

I also think Teaching textbooks might work. My daughter didn't quite test into the 3rd grade book. She knew a portion of the problems, but not all. We used it anyway and she is over 70 lessons in with no problems. They start very gentle and basic, and especially if you're around to guide her through any tough problems she may excel at it. They also have little study buddies that to actions (like a caterpillar going into a chrysalis then into a butterfly. It makes it fun.

[Holly]

I was also thinking MUS...I still haven't figured out what all the corresponding grade levels are! :lol:

[NASDAQ]

JUMP Math is very popular in my province. I don't have and have never held the fifth grade book, so I'm going on hear-say.

 

It was designed to be used for remedial students, and has a rather Saxon-like approach of tiny, tiny incremental steps.

 

Many people don't like it because of how small the steps are. I think for grade-level kids, it can be frustrating.

 

It always starts in with fractions.

 

It is definitely better than the super-constructivist Math Makes Sense that is the other main BC option. Kids doing JUMP test well.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So... 9-almost-10yo DD has decided that it is vitally important to her to be working in 5th grade books next year

 

she's just been reallllly unmotivated.

 

Any other ideas for me? I really want to honor her feelings about this issue. It's HUGE for her.

 

The big shiny "5" on the cover seems silly to us as adults, but it's a very, very big deal to her. Feeling "below grade level" is demoralizing to her. She *needs* the 5.

 

I am having a hard time reconciling her lack of motivation with her wish to work at grade level next year. In the absence of a learning disability, I am wondering why this wish can't be turned into a goal, why the reward of working in a 5th grade book can't be earned through hard work. Can this not become a mission, if it is so important to her? Can this thing that is so important to her not serve as motivation?

 

Obviously, you know her and I don't. That is just what puzzles me. With any one of my kids, I would have a heart to heart and make a plan to power through before I would look for a new program. Of course, if the current program isn't working, I get that. Or if it just isn't a fit...or whatever. But you just mention that she is unmotivated, so that left me wondering.

[Hunter]

It is not behind - it's on task for a 5th grader.

 

I see 4 question marks on your post, but don't know what is supposed to be there.

[Hunter]

I don't know what Saxon is saying NOW, but in the past 54 was a 5th grade book. And to top that off the newer editions keep getting wider in scope. :banghead:

 

Shinyhappypeople I SO get what you are saying! When I was in school, we were leveled in math and there were plenty of students working at your daughter's level who were in a 5th grade math class with their age peers. They were not sent down to the 4th grade for math instruction. I was one of those kids in the lower level math groups despite being in the higher level reading groups.

 

Your daughter is well within normal 5th grade child development, despite not performing at the CURRENT level of some state's standards that are NOT based on typical child performance.

 

Personally, before I wasted too much time hunting for a 5th grade book, I'd probably just grab a junior college remedial text and purchase a worksheet generator to make supplemental worksheets for it. I'd tell her, "Look, see, you are now in Basic College Math".

 

Have you read the Simply Charlotte Mason Mathematics pdf? You might like it.

 

Despite having radically accelerated ONE of my children I continue to be less and less impressed with the need to stress over math for ALL students. Yes, we need a PORTION of our population to be trained for STEM jobs, but that doesn't mean we need to leak that need down into the lives of ALL our children.

[shinyhappypeople]

I am having a hard time reconciling her lack of motivation with her wish to work at grade level next year. In the absence of a learning disability, I am wondering why this wish can't be turned into a goal, why the reward of working in a 5th grade book can't be earned through hard work. Can this not become a mission, if it is so important to her? Can this thing that is so important to her not serve as motivation?

 

Obviously, you know her and I don't. That is just what puzzles me. With any one of my kids, I would have a heart to heart and make a plan to power through before I would look for a new program. Of course, if the current program isn't working, I get that. Or if it just isn't a fit...or whatever. But you just mention that she is unmotivated, so that left me wondering.

 

 

I hear you. This is the first time in a very, very long time that she finally appears motivated to challenge herself. But she wants tools that are labeled 5th grade. Does that make sense?

 

We're switching math programs anyway. We were with Math Mammoth (topic books), but it was just too much for her both in terms of writing and ... I don't know... it was just too much. I can't really articulate the problem, but it was just not a good fit for her. I loved it, she hated it. The only other program we've spent serious time in was McRuffy, which she loved BUT because of the tight spiral it's very difficult to accelerate through (not a good "catch up" curriculum at all), she's nowhere near ready for the 4th grade book, much less the 5th grade, and it's kind of expensive. Basically, that one's off the table. :(

 

I'm more and more intrigued by JUMP Math. I think the teeny-tiny steps might work well for her. I'm not sure if the teacher's manual (available free online) correlates to Jump at Home or only the classroom version of Jump. That's a pretty big issue for me, because if there isn't explicit instruction in the text (a la Saxon or Math Mammoth), I need a TM that holds my hand.

 

Also, I really want to learn more about Learn Math Fast. Their web site doesn't have samples for volume 1, but the volume 2 sample looks very good, and the premise behind the series appeals to me. I might get the algebra and geometry books just to remediate my own math skills.

[Hunter]

Attempting to catch her up, and picking a curriculum with the right cover can be quite contradictory. Which is your priority?

 

Some kids never catch up to a scope and sequence that does not match their development. Catching up isn't always possible for these students. Or at least not without serious time spent on the subject to the exclusion of other subjects. Is catching up a good goal for THIS student? Or is steady progress a better one for HER?

[Crimson Wife]

What about Developmental Math? She might place into level 8 of that program.

[Roxy Roller]

I would also agree with the TT5 suggestions. One of my twins, who turned 10 in October, started Saxon 5/4 at the beginning of the year. He did fine for the first part, but by Lesson 30 he really got bogged down and started making too many mistakes. I ordered TT5 and he has been working through it ever since, doing 4 lessons a week. He will be finished in June and then will move on to TT6. It is pretty gentle, and by the sounds of it, your DD would do well in it. Have you looked at the ToC for TT5? Simple division is not really introduced until Lesson 62. Lesson 77 uses a two digit divisor. Lesson 69 is where two digit multiplication is taught. There are a lot of lessons that come before to build up to these lessons. TT is definitely not the most rigorous math out there, but for some kids, it is a good fit. My DS will be doing some math through the summer so that we can make steady progress.

 

I also have Learn Math Fast Volumes 1-5 on my shelf. We haven't used it, but maybe I can answer some specific questions about it, if you have any.

[shinyhappypeople]

Attempting to catch her up, and picking a curriculum with the right cover can be quite contradictory. Which is your priority?

 

Some kids never catch up to a scope and sequence that does not match their development. Catching up isn't always possible for these students. Or at least not without serious time spent on the subject to the exclusion of other subjects. Is catching up a good goal for THIS student? Or is steady progress a better one for HER?

 

 

Good question. I care about steady progress and about giving her tools that build her confidence. Right now, feeling "fifth grade" is important to her, and having "fifth grade" tools is motivating. Hence, this thread :)

 

I personally find grade levels, content standards and the rest pretty pointless. It's like insisting that every 9 year old should wear the same size shoes or have the same athletic ability for no other reason than her age. We'd never do that, because variation is natural and expected. However, heaven help us if a 9 year old isn't ready for long division. Academics seems to be the one area where we don't tolerate variety in ability, interest or readiness.

[shinyhappypeople]

Has anyone used Mastering Mathematics? It's ungraded and looks promising.

 

I'm also toying with the idea of inviting Life of Fred to the party, as a supplement.

 

 

Re: Teaching Textbooks, we used TT3 in the past and it wasn't a good fit. She needs more explicit instruction, with bite-sized steps. In particular, its approach to teaching place value confused her.

[Lara in Colo]

I happen to have TT 5 in front of me. It starts off with a review of addition and subtraction, then goes into one digit multiplication, then two etc....

 

I think you will be fine. She will also like the format (the colorful cartoon people).

 

I would also recommend a times table helper (I used times tables in minutes http://www.multiplic...es-times-tables)

You tell a story while she colors a picture. I used it with my olders and it was great.

 

Lara

[stripe]

 

 

I see 4 question marks on your post, but don't know what is supposed to be there.

 

In my experience a lot of spam posts have these

[stripe]

I have two ideas

1- Liping Ma's Knowing Mathematics books put out by Houghton Mifflin. These are "remedial." So they have older kids learning basic stuff and move more quickly than a book aimed at little kids. They don't have a year listed on them.

2- Use MEP and print out the wrong cover. In fact, I no longer see their covers on the website, so I had to invent my own. The pages of the practice book have a number, but maybe she wouldn't notice.

 

 

Otherwise I'm with Farrar to use Math Mammoth topical books.

[Rockhopper]

We used Jump Math with my dd this year - she started the year at first grade level math and will finish probably about midway through third - so not quite to grade level (she'll be 4th grade in the fall) but not bad. I really liked Jump Math at first but eventually found it didn't have enough review - especially of carrying/borrowing and multiplication facts - and the third grade book doesn't get to division until the very, very, very end (which we are not yet near). Also, truly, there was a point where I would've appreciated a scripted TM. I actually liked using their "fast-start" Fractions unit over the summer because it had a lot more script for the teacher. (As far as I know, and all I could find, was the at-home supplemental workbook, not the full curriculum.) So lots of positives from me, but not unqualified, ykwim? We're switching to TT for next year -- if you're still considering it, I wouldn't worry as a good 1/5 or so of each grade in TT seems to be review. I bet you could start her in 5 without much if any problem.

[Hunter]

 

Good question. I care about steady progress and about giving her tools that build her confidence. Right now, feeling "fifth grade" is important to her, and having "fifth grade" tools is motivating. Hence, this thread :)

 

I personally find grade levels, content standards and the rest pretty pointless. It's like insisting that every 9 year old should wear the same size shoes or have the same athletic ability for no other reason than her age. We'd never do that, because variation is natural and expected. However, heaven help us if a 9 year old isn't ready for long division. Academics seems to be the one area where we don't tolerate variety in ability, interest or readiness.

 

It might be easier then to drop the goal of catching her up, and just concentrate on steady progress and an appropriate cover. Not trying to do all 3 will give you more options. Catching up often leads to problems that can be avoided by focusing on where she is AT instead of where you WISH she were.

[mytwomonkeys]

we use & love teaching textbooks (at my kids grade level) & it is considered "behind". in fact we moved to TT from CLE, and i admit it was a lot of review. my kids love it & do very well with it though. they are retaining the information & i see them applying math to real life - so it is a win for me.

 

my daughter is in 5th grade this year & is still learning from the lessons, and more importantly, there is no arguing about math. we both enjoy the curriculum. my son is working through the grade 3 level & is also doing very well and loves it. :) we also use times tales alongside TT with him for multiplication memorization.

[ElizabethB]

Personally, before I wasted too much time hunting for a 5th grade book, I'd probably just grab a junior college remedial text and purchase a worksheet generator to make supplemental worksheets for it. I'd tell her, "Look, see, you are now in Basic College Math".

 

That sounds like a good plan!

 

Another idea for quick catch up in areas of weakness, have her take the ADAM K-7 math test, then do the linked Kahn Academy videos in areas where she is below grade level. $20, linked to Kahn, you really can't beat that for price and ease of use for what you get.

 

http://www.letsgolearn.com/lglsite/support_read/adam_k-7_alignment_to_khan_academy/

 

 

[shinyhappypeople]

We used Jump Math with my dd this year - she started the year at first grade level math and will finish probably about midway through third - so not quite to grade level (she'll be 4th grade in the fall) but not bad. I really liked Jump Math at first but eventually found it didn't have enough review - especially of carrying/borrowing and multiplication facts - and the third grade book doesn't get to division until the very, very, very end (which we are not yet near). Also, truly, there was a point where I would've appreciated a scripted TM. I actually liked using their "fast-start" Fractions unit over the summer because it had a lot more script for the teacher. (As far as I know, and all I could find, was the at-home supplemental workbook, not the full curriculum.) So lots of positives from me, but not unqualified, ykwim? We're switching to TT for next year -- if you're still considering it, I wouldn't worry as a good 1/5 or so of each grade in TT seems to be review. I bet you could start her in 5 without much if any problem.

 

It's great to hear from someone who's actually used JUMP math! Yay :) If you have a moment, will you take a look at these Teacher's Guides (pdfs) and tell me if they correlate more or less with the JUMP at Home workbooks? At first glance they seem to, but I don't have one of the workbooks in front of me to compare.

[jessj]

It really sounds to me like Math-U-See would be a good fit for her and you. It does not have numbers on the front though. Can you talk her out of that 5 on her math book if it isn't a program that has numbers? Can she have a 5 on other subjects or is it specifically related to math?

 

Also, MUS is really easy to accelerate through if you are trying to catch up.

[NASDAQ]

JUMP at Home is put out separately from JUMP the actual program. It isn't complete; It's only a supplement. It won't correlate with the JUMP stuff online.

 

How about MathQuest 5? This is the series that we used when I was coming up in school. The third grade book is a somewhat easier version of SM2. The fifth grade one should be introducing multidigit multiplication and long division, which is where you'd be. It's a mild spiral.

 

http://www.amazon.ca/MathQuest-5-Brendan-Kelly/dp/0201195003

 

The prerequisites for fourth grade would be:

- addition and subtraction algorithm

- some familiarity with multiplication of a two or three-digit number by a one digit number

- multiplication and division facts to 9 times 9

 

Here is the protocol that it aligns with: http://www.wncp.ca/media/39511/wcpmath.pdf

[shinyhappypeople]

 

 

Personally, before I wasted too much time hunting for a 5th grade book, I'd probably just grab a junior college remedial text and purchase a worksheet generator to make supplemental worksheets for it. I'd tell her, "Look, see, you are now in Basic College Math".

 

 

 

Like this book?

[shinyhappypeople]

There's another possibility: I could go with something similar to Math on the Level and have no textbooks at all. Note, I said "similar to" because there is no way we could afford the actual MOTL curriculum.

 

Possibly Kitchen Table Math? Are there other similar options? I've looked at the Living Math web site and I really, really like it.

[Hunter]

Like this book?

 

Yes. Also look at Aufmann.

 

There's another possibility: I could go with something similar to Math on the Level and have no textbooks at all. Note, I said "similar to" because there is no way we could afford the actual MOTL curriculum.

 

Possibly Kitchen Table Math? Are there other similar options? I've looked at the Living Math web site and I really, really like it.

 

Arithmetic Made Simple is what I use instead of MOTL. I've been using this text since the mid 1990s. It needs extra problems like MOTL does. I use Ray's Arithmetic and Strayer-Upton as problem banks.

[Mom0012]

I haven't read all the posts, so I don't know what's been recommended, but both TT and R&S Move at a slower pace than many other programs.

[Hunter]

I was thinking R&S was too advanced. If it's not, also take a look at the Amish Study Time workbooks.

[misidawnrn]

We are using ABeka for math for 3rd grade this year. I thought about switching to Teaching Textbooks for 4th but had to buy the 5th grade book to get out of what she is learning already. Even then, the beginning of the book was what she was doing in 3rd grade ABeka. I sold it already but its an idea.

[shinyhappypeople]

I was thinking R&S was too advanced. If it's not, also take a look at the Amish Study Time workbooks.

 

R&S is way too advanced, unfortunately.

[warneral]

Based on her skills, 4th grade math would be the most beneficial for her IMO. She needs time to practice long division/mult etc. What about helping to set a goal that includes working through the summer to get "caught up" by 6th grade? I understand that she wants a 5 on her book, but IMO a 4th grade math text will hold her hand through some very important math skills that she needs before hitting 5th grade math.

[RootAnn]

Laughing Lioness (her blog is Golden Grasses) uses Learn Math Fast and can tell you which of her kids did well & which wanted to "move on" to a different math. She wrote a review (with a give-away). I believe one of her kids is still doing well with it & one went (back to?) Saxon. So, if you want nitty-gritty details, contact her.

 

Good luck finding something. :grouphug: I have one that struggles in math, but she doesn't really mind her book # not matching her grade level as long as we don't have to do math for hours everyday....

[twoxcell]

Based on her skills, 4th grade math would be the most beneficial for her IMO. She needs time to practice long division/mult etc. What about helping to set a goal that includes working through the summer to get "caught up" by 6th grade? I understand that she wants a 5 on her book, but IMO a 4th grade math text will hold her hand through some very important math skills that she needs before hitting 5th grade math.

:iagree: I do not see the point of choosing a curriculum based on a number on the front.

[warneral]

Thinking on it further, forgive me for not answering your original question, Shiny.... it isn't that she is "behind" in the first place. She is only 9 years old. Meeting her with 4th grade curriculum for math, and probably 5th grade curriculum in other areas, would teach her that the benefit of homeschooling is that you can teach HER - not a number, not an age, not a grade level. I love that about homeschooling!!! My ds, I held him back so he will be an 11 year old 5th grader. Because he spent so many years at that age, and based on his abilities he is where he belongs as a rising 5th grade. My goal is to move him ahead by continuing math in the summer (wanting him to keep up his skills), is that he may be advanced in math on grade level by the time he is doing High School work.

 

Just a thought :)