20/20 episode last night

[ScoutTN]

.... so much needs to change that there is no way our current system should be regulating homeschooling.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[5LittleMonkeys]

I'm not saying every homeschool parent feels that way :) I have encountered that way of thinking, to the point where someone debating putting a child in was talked down upon. I wonder if more rural areas are better at accepting homeschool families? I have also never felt turned away from a public school. I went to school for education myself and maybe that is because I know how to approach them. I have gone in many times to volunteer, etc. I know teachers love to have tutors and someone to just help at times and I've always loved doing that. I love the joy of seeing children learn, even other children. My children have gone into a school to have lunch, we have attended book fairs, and fall festivals. The best part is walking into the school with four young children and getting many compliments from the teachers about how well behaved all of my children are.

 

You are lucky to have a school district that is friendly to homeschoolers. Not every district is. I don't care how well you think you "now how to approach them", in my district you would not be allowed past the front office as a homeschooler no matter how helpful your willing to be. If you walked into the school 1 mile from my house and said, "Hi, I'm so and so, I homeschool and I'd love to volunteer to help the teachers and tutor the children" they would escort you out the front door right after they finished laughing at you.

[pdalley]

Did you even read my posts? I said that the government should provide the parents with additional resources to help the child learn.

 

I couldn't get them to do that when my kid WAS in public school. They refused to test him for dyslexia. They refused to give him reading remediation when he was a student there. We had to save money to have him privately tested and every dime of his tutoring was paid for by us. They claimed he couldn't read because he had high functioning autism. I have two others with the same thing that were reading well before they ever started school.

 

So I don't put much faith - based on my personal experience - that the government (locally at least) would provide such resources. And according to his tutor - who was a public school teacher who quit to help remediate kids - this local school system refuses to really deal with dyslexia. If the kid can get by then they will argue that it doesn't impact their education enough to merit intervention.

 

Again, this show was about the Jeff's cult and I think its pretty absurd of 20/20 to think that the kid not learning to read was the worst thing he had to endure based on what I've read about Jeffs and that sect of FLDS and attempt to blame the issues on 'homeschooling' is even more ridiculous. These kids attend a private school run by the cult and the existing laws regulating private schools and child labor laws should be enforced if they apply. The rest of us shouldn't be subjected to more regulation for something barely connected to what we do on a daily basis. I'm not running a private school - I am teaching my children at home because the local school system failed them horribly. What I do has nothing to do with what some cult in Utah is doing. They don't look remotely the same.

[justLisa]

If by "standardized education" you mean "can read and add single-digit numbers by graduation" then yes, I whole-heartedly support standardized education.

 

Seeing so many people apoplectic with outrage at the idea of the government ensuring that all kids can read and write well enough to function really makes me concerned for the current generation of homeschooled kids. :blink:

 

 

You trust the GOVERNMENT ensuring all kids have a good education? Have you SEEN their current "doing" in public education? Frankly I'm not enthusiastic about the government'd current aid in providing ANY sort of education let alone making a lawful standard for it. You make more homeschooling regulations you screw the wrong people. Making "standards" means that if you are outside that standard you are in the wrong. Make a law for it and now you are doing something illegal. The same rights that protect crappy parents from not teaching their kids enough, protect me from doing the BEST for MINE. We do NOT need MORE government.

[Mergath]

I couldn't get them to do that when my kid WAS in public school. They refused to test him for dyslexia. They refused to give him reading remediation when he was a student there. We had to save money to have him privately tested and every dime of his tutoring was paid for by us. They claimed he couldn't read because he had high functioning autism. I have two others with the same thing that were reading well before they ever started school.

 

 

I'm just one homeschooling mom. I'm not saying, "Here, this is exactly how we have to do it, so there." When I say that I'd like to see testing and resources offered to hsing kids who are way, way behind, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. It's just what I'd like to see, in a perfect world.

 

And it's different everywhere. My dd goes through our local school district for some services, such as speech therapy and some work with an occupational therapist, and I can't get these people to quit offering me services. Because my dd has a genetic disorder, she gets a full-time helper for all activities she does at the school. Never mind that she has no cognitive deficits whatsoever and is light years ahead of the other kids. They're always telling me that I can sign her up for whatever activities I want for free, because she has a diagnosis. And if i want her to have more therapy, just let them know!

 

Everyone acts like standardization is the devil, but I think our country's education system could use a little more standardization. Kids should be able to get the resources they need regardless of which school district they live in, but again, that's my hope for a perfect world.

[Mergath]

You trust the GOVERNMENT ensuring all kids have a good education? Have you SEEN their current "doing" in public education? Frankly I'm not enthusiastic about the government'd current aid in providing ANY sort of education let alone making a lawful standard for it. You make more homeschooling regulations you screw the wrong people. Making "standards" means that if you are outside that standard you are in the wrong. Make a law for it and now you are doing something illegal. The same rights that protect crappy parents from not teaching their kids enough, protect me from doing the BEST for MINE. We do NOT need MORE government.

 

 

Well, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on that. And if you honestly think that not teaching your kids to read and write- which is what I have been saying the standard should be- is doing the best for them, I pity your children and you shouldn't be homeschooling. Period.

 

Ugh. I'm done with this thread for tonight.

[Murphy101]

Did you even read my posts? I said that the government should provide the parents with additional resources to help the child learn. Where exactly did I say that the government needs to "take over the education of children lagging behind"?

 

If by "standardized education" you mean "can read and add single-digit numbers by graduation" then yes, I whole-heartedly support standardized education.

Seeing so many people apoplectic with outrage at the idea of the government ensuring that all kids can read and write well enough to function really makes me concerned for the current generation of homeschooled kids. :blink:

 

 

How do you think the services will be "provided"? In my limited experience it is usually not with a friendly list of options they can choose to avail themselves of as they are inclined. Which is what I would think necessary for parents continue to have control of the education. Otherwise it's a case of fail this, mandate that. Mandates are usually viewed as take overs of choice.

 

That aside, if you are truely espousing is basic 6th grade reading level (what a typical newspaper is written at) and simple mathematics, then we need exactly one exam at approx 3rd grade. Maybe 5th for the very late bloomers. Because most children without LD issues will have attained what you are calling basic education by 3rd -5th grade.

 

I suppose I could come to tolerate, though still not agree with, a 20 minute test involving reading a selection of a chapter book and some addition and subtraction.

[staceyobu]

Everyone acts like standardization is the devil, but I think our country's education system could use a little more standardization. Kids should be able to get the resources they need regardless of which school district they live in, but again, that's my hope for a perfect world.

 

 

Texas public schools are actually doing this. The goal is for every child in every district across the state to be on the same lesson at the same time. That way, the best and worst districts are getting the exact same education. It's been very controversial here.

[justLisa]

..

[justLisa]

apparently it decided to post multiple times

Edited November 26, 2012 by 425lisamarie

[pdalley]

 

Though I would agree with the religious nut bags Wendy. But they are going to do it anyways. Horrible people will find a way to be horrible. You cannot make laws about that, it just does not work.

 

:iagree: I don't see why I should have to lose my rights because of the Jeffs clan. And no, I absolutely do not want the public school system that failed my kids, my brother and my father, overseeing my teaching my kids because. I would agree all people - children or adults - should be functionally literate but I could not disagree more that more regulation can make that happen. If oversight has made the public schools into a mess it's sure not going to help struggling homeschoolers.

[snowbeltmom]

Sounds "interesting" and maybe even noble, but it's impossible. And freaking boring. It would kill teaching for a lot of teachers. Maybe classes should be taught by robots.

A friend told me a few years ago that this practice had been implemented in her son's public school. Half-way through the school year, her son mentioned what transpired every day in his history class: The kids came into the room, opened their books to the appropriate page, the teacher hit the play button on his tape recorder and the kids listened to the teacher drone on for the entire class period reading the textbook. The teacher said that if the administration was requiring him to be at page X at the end of the day for every class, the only way he could guarantee that would be if the kids were not able to ask questions.

[Chris in VA]

A friend told me a few years ago that this practice had been implemented in her son's public school. Half-way through the school year, her son mentioned what transpired every day in his history class: The kids came into the room, opened their books to the appropriate page, the teacher hit the play button on his tape recorder and the kids listened to the teacher drone on for the entire class period reading the textbook. The teacher said that if the administration was requiring him to be at page X at the end of the day for every class, the only way he could guarantee that would be if the kids were not able to ask questions.

 

That sounds like utter crap, to be honest. Did she continue on to say that she marched right down there and told the admin what was happening? I don't believe a word of it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I didn't think more hs'ing oversight would have saved the FLDS kids. My only point was that too many of the same objections could be raised about too many homeschoolers. I think the time has passed when we could say, "What do the non-schoolers have to do with me or my family? Nothing!" That may be true, but we are not what people think of when they think of homeschooling. They think of the children they know who failed in the ps when they returned, or the kids "pushed out" of ps against their parents' wishes, or the family in the town who doesn't allow the girls out of the house and whose boys can't read or write.

 

Not when even our state conventions are about lifestyle choices instead of academics. Not when Vision Forum, et al, have so carefully worked to make themselves the face of homeschooling. We're not as removed as I'd like to be. I want separate, inclusive, academic-focused and deliberate organizations, support groups, conventions, and websites. I think we would benefit from improving our publicity as serious, classical home educators.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I sure hope this double posting problem goes away soon! Or if it's me, I hope I'll figure out what I'm doing wrong.

[5LittleMonkeys]

That sounds like utter crap, to be honest. Did she continue on to say that she marched right down there and told the admin what was happening? I don't believe a word of it.

 

Uh, believe it. Before I pulled my dc out of ps it was a common practice for the teachers to tell the kids they couldn't ask questions during class time otherwise they wouldn't be able to stay on track. I volunteered in the classroom during this time so I'm speaking from 1st hand experience. The principal would make rounds through the classrooms and make sure the teachers were on the pages in the text they were supposed to be on according to her schedule. She had a clipboard and a red marker...it was ridiculous.

[snowbeltmom]

That sounds like utter crap, to be honest. Did she continue on to say that she marched right down there and told the admin what was happening? I don't believe a word of it.

She said she spoke with some of the other kids' moms, and a few had also been told the same thing by their kids. She had absolutely no reason to make this up. She said the feeling was that the teacher was doing this to protest the administration's policy that he had to be at a certain page by the end of the day. She also said that she was not the type to make waves and would not complain.

This attitude of not making waves is not unusual. I had another friend tell me that she was concerned about her 10th grader's writing abilities and his preparation for college-level writing. Her son only had 3 English papers assigned for the entire year (honors level 10th grade). He never received any of the papers back. I asked her if she complained to the administration because to me that is educational malpractice. She told me that all of the kids in the class received an "A" so everyone was happy. She said she was afraid to say anything because she had younger kids coming up.

[Reeciecup]

I've been reading up about the education system in the FLDS church. It's changed radically in the last few years. Before Warren Jeffs the children largely went to public schools, though there was a private and residential school in Salt Lake City. Women could learn to be midwives and even get advanced degrees, so they weren't all restricted to "just" being mothers. There are FLDS communities across the US and into Canada. Warren Jeffs has said that children in the FLDS church should be homeschooled. However, he made that statement only in 2000. So yes, the eighteen year old boy who couldn't read was likely part of the public school system before being brought home to school. Since I last did research it does look like more FLDS kids are homeschooled with Warren Jeffs-approved materials.

 

 

The boy could read on a first grade level, which would have been the public school grade he would have been in in 2000. So following that, he must have received no instruction after that point. I think that is abusive, and somehow abuses like that have to be stopped.

[TravelingChris]

I think Utah and Arizona have plenty they could investigate about FLDS even without tightening homeschool regulations. I have lived in no regulation areas, minor regulation areas, and moderate regulation areas. I didn't change my homeschooling ways in any of the places. But I wasn't trying to follow some strange cult which likes to flount the laws. As a PP said, there are child labor laws being violated, sexual abuse laws being violated, welfare laws, spousal abuse laws, etc, etc. We don't need more laws- both Utah and Arizona have educational neglect laws. They know who the FLDS people are and if not, they can find out. What any of this has to do with non cultish homeschooling families, I don't understand. People who violate the educational neglext laws tend to violate other laws too such as plain child neglect. The ones you see in the news are always some wierdos who locked up some kid in a closet or something. The people involved in these cases are either mentally ill or evil and neither will start observing laws they don't want to follow. Oh, and thinking back on the closet kid cases, they occur in both highly regulated states and non regulated states. It doesn't make a differene since those kids are off everyone's radar.

[briansmama]

If by "standardized education" you mean "can read and add single-digit numbers by graduation" then yes, I whole-heartedly support standardized education.

Seeing so many people apoplectic with outrage at the idea of the government ensuring that all kids can read and write well enough to function really makes me concerned for the current generation of homeschooled kids. :blink:

 

 

Certainly everyone here wants children to learn to read and write and be able to perform basic math equations, but the public school system model only allows for one way to achieve this goal: through standardization, which I don't support at all.

 

There are many different educational methods, and we chose to homeschool using high quality educational materials, not standardized curriculum and standardized testing.

 

To say the government should regulate homeschooling means that the government should regulate homeschooling according to the methods used in government schools: standardized curriculum and standardized testing. This opens the door for the government to tell me that my holistic and creative approach, materials, and curriculum will not suffice in teaching my children (even though my children are reading, writing, and computing and love learning). This opens the door for the government to say that becuase my 7 year old isn't yet reading there is a problem...yet as the pp pointed out, in Finland (where students are outperforming American children in public schools in every single subject) formal academics don't even begin until the child is age 7.

 

I feel like I'm not being heard at all by Mergath. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that standardized education is acceptable enough that we should all be basing our homeschools on the public system model because we should allow them to regulate our he education, but again, I hope you'll consider that many of us here have opted out of the public school system because we want a better quality education for our children.

[Sahamamama]

Seeing so many people apoplectic with outrage at the idea of the government ensuring that all kids can read and write well enough to function really makes me concerned for the current generation of homeschooled kids.

 

 

That's quite an arrogant assumption -- that if someone doesn't support the idea of government regulation (i.e., your idea), then there's cause for concern about that person's homeschooled children. Wow. :confused1:

 

I'm not apoplectic at all. The reason we started homeschooling was specifically because (at least in our school district) "the government" could NOT ensure that all kids can read and write well enough to function. They could NOT accomplish that basic academic goal. So we homeschool.

 

Now, of course, we see many more reasons to keep going. But our initial purpose was to give our children what our failed public school system would not have provided -- a solid education. You've made it clear that you don't buy into failed public schools = homeschooler's freedom from public school oversight. I want to know, whether or not the public schools in my district are failing, what qualifies them to monitor me?

 

I find it amazing to think that the same school system which could not itself produce students with basic competencies should be put in charge of evaluating the quality of my homeschool.

 

Sort of like McDonald's being put in charge of my weekly meal planning. :glare:

[chepyl]

 

 

Well, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on that. And if you honestly think that not teaching your kids to read and write- which is what I have been saying the standard should be- is doing the best for them, I pity your children and you shouldn't be homeschooling. Period.

 

Ugh. I'm done with this thread for tonight.

 

 

I teach my kids to read and write, and much more. I actually have pretty high standards and I even plan to test them yearly. That does NOT mean I want the government telling me I have to do those things. I want to spend my time and energy finding great curricula and educating my kids, not trying to fulfill arbitrary regulations.

 

Just because we don't want the government to say we MUST teach reading and writing does not mean we don't plan to teach those things.

[mom4him]

When the states correct the educational neglect in public schools, then *maybe* I'll bother to listen to this nonsense that more regulations equals better.

 

I totally agree. They featured an 18 yr old that can't read. I wonder how many ps 18 yr olds are in the same pair of shoes.

[Reeciecup]

I totally agree. They featured an 18 yr old that can't read. I wonder how many ps 18 yr olds are in the same pair of shoes.

 

I honestly doubt that there are many neurologically typical 18 year olds that go through the ps system and don't learn to read. Seriously, that's not happening.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Two things to point out before the quoting begins - one the national government has little to do with public education. Most education laws are at the state level. Second, yes we do need to worry that because a fringe group is not doing it's job that there could be repercussions for all homeschoolers. IMO and experience the media will use anything to sensationalize a story. This will rile up the viewers and policy makers, and laws will be passed. For example, Charles Linburgh Jr. was kidnapped and because his father was famous it was a national media event. The local police didn't do a great job, and the media played that up. Hoover jumped on the issue and whambamthankyouma'am all kidnapping cases are now handled by the FBI.

 

How I see people breaking down in this thread are - pro-government and anti-big government. These are very basic differences and they won't be resolved in one thread IMO.

 

Texas public schools are actually doing this. The goal is for every child in every district across the state to be on the same lesson at the same time. That way, the best and worst districts are getting the exact same education. It's been very controversial here.

 

See, that wouldn't work well up here in Minnesota. I live way down in the southern part of the state and we have significantly less snow than the way northern part (I'm looking at YOU, International Falls). We're all closed at different times due to weather. Heck, we don't even open at the same time. Most of the state starts school on the first weekday after Labor Day, but my local school got an exemption and they open in mid-August. That has created it's own weather related issues as most of the local schools have no air conditioning.

 

 

Maybe classes should be taught by robots.

 

Once out robot overlords show themselves I'm sure it'll happen. AS it is kids are going to be aimed at having teachers on tv/online with textbooks on iPads.

 

 

Uh, believe it. Before I pulled my dc out of ps it was a common practice for the teachers to tell the kids they couldn't ask questions during class time otherwise they wouldn't be able to stay on track. I volunteered in the classroom during this time so I'm speaking from 1st hand experience. The principal would make rounds through the classrooms and make sure the teachers were on the pages in the text they were supposed to be on according to her schedule. She had a clipboard and a red marker...it was ridiculous.

 

See, robots. We need to start checking for pod marks.

[celticmom]

This is totally illogical. Just because I know I will pass the inspection does NOT mean I won't have a problem with having to submit to an inspection in the first place.

 

:iagree:

[LibraryLover]

I honestly doubt that there are many neurologically typical 18 year olds that go through the ps system and don't learn to read. Seriously, that's not happening.

 

Ime, many people have Learning Disabilities. However, most US schools do try to put certain systems in place to help the student learn to read and write. It's a huge job, given the background of many. It's costly, and some young people fall through the cracks.

[pdalley]

I honestly doubt that there are many neurologically typical 18 year olds that go through the ps system and don't learn to read. Seriously, that's not happening.

 

Maybe. But my father was one. I have no way of knowing if he had dyslexia or not. I just assumed he had it as he left school as soon as he was legally able and never did learn to read and write. I have a son with it and everyone else on both sides are really strong readers. I've heard it tends to be genetic.

 

Dexter Manly graduated from college functionally illiterate - http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/sports/views-of-sport-how-illiteracy-makes-athletes-run.html and a quick search turned up this - http://www.10news.com/news/retired-teacher-reveals-he-was-illiterate-until-age-48

 

Did these people have an undiagnosed LD? I don't know but they were apparently educated in the public schools and it wasn't caught.

[Murphy101]

The boy could read on a first grade level, which would have been the public school grade he would have been in in 2000. So following that, he must have received no instruction after that point. I think that is abusive, and somehow abuses like that have to be stopped.

 

How is that even possible? Once my kids start reading with the fundamentals, they are eager to keep at it on their own. They read road signs, cereal boxes, .... When they come across something that they can't pronounce or don't know how to blend they ask "what's these put to together say? Is ____ blank a word?" My 6 year old has been reading beginner books above her level, but I've not done anything other than let her as far as encouragement. Did the boy have no natural curiosity? Did people actively refuse to let him read? I don't understand how a child without LDs never even accidentally stumbled upon learning any new words or read anything else past 1st grade. The mind boggles at how screwed up a home had to be for that to happen to a child without LDs. :(

[NittanyJen]

We live in New Jersey, a state that seems to be without a homeschool law. In any case, we don't "do" anything, we just homeschool. No notice of intent (NOI), no waiver of liability, no testing, no certified teacher evaulation, no portfolios, no attendance, no book/reading logs -- in short, nothing goes from our home to any government agency. So far, we haven't had any trouble with the school district. Our children have never been enrolled in any school, so I'm thinking the school district doesn't even know we exist. I do keep great records, and we do homeschool excellently. And, we're modest. ;)

The question of state/government oversight of our homeschooling has been the big debate at our house, because we are considering a move out of New Jersey (crazy taxes). Where could we go and have such GREAT homeschool laws? We do view NO REGULATION as great for homeschoolers. There are no hoops to jump through in New Jersey.

Pennsylvania is the next state over. Terrible, terrible, horrible, awful, and draconian homeschool so-called laws. At least, it feels that way to a NJ person, to go from "Captain of the Ship" to "Vassal of the Commonwealth." We're still thinking through our convictions.

I have come to think that the state CAN ask for these two items:

• Notice of Intent to Homeschool -- This simply lets the state know that "We, the parent(s) of ____, intend to homeschool this child in the year ____."
  
• Waiver of Liability -- This simply states that "We, the parent(s) of ____, release the school district from being responsible for the education of ______ during the time that we homeschool him/her."
  

IMO, those two statements are all a school district can request, in order to legally cover itself. I probably would have no objection to submitting an NOI and a Waiver of Liability. I do have objections to submitting more.

BEYOND THAT, any other regulation is intrusive, including mandatory testing (whether or not scores are submitted), mandatory medical/dental/vaccination reports (why is that the state's business?), certified teacher evaluations (certified by whom? the state? blech.), portfolio evaluations (confiscation of private property), attendance/hours/days reports (this is so ridiculous for homeschoolers), reading logs (violates the privacy of the home), curriculum summaries/evaluations (violates the privacy of parenting), or any other requirement.

I have often wondered why people in highly regulatory states don't fight to change their homeschool laws. Do you truly LIKE letting the state/school district into your home? If not, why not lobby to change the laws?

 

Not completely on topic, but depending upon where in NJ you are, consider Delaware. You file a registration in September/October that lists your students with basic demographics, and in July you report days attended. That's it.

 

There is no actual attendance requirement, testing, etc.

 

Pretty easy state, and we try to keep it that way. We don't want the same people who have bungled public education screwing things up by trying to tell us what we should do. When we find parents not getting it done (DE is a small state) usually someone tries to mentor the parents or gently nudge them back towards school. In cases of true educational neglect, there are sully other forms of neglect happening at the same time.

 

 

[Elizabeth in MN]

How is that even possible? Once my kids start reading with the fundamentals, they are eager to keep at it on their own. They read road signs, cereal boxes, .... When they come across something that they can't pronounce or don't know how to blend they ask "what's these put to together say? Is ____ blank a word?" My 6 year old has been reading beginner books above her level, but I've not done anything other than let her as far as encouragement. Did the boy have no natural curiosity? Did people actively refuse to let him read? I don't understand how a child without LDs never even accidentally stumbled upon learning any new words or read anything else past 1st grade. The mind boggles at how screwed up a home had to be for that to happen to a child without LDs. :(

 

 

From what I have read curiosity is actively discouraged in FLDS culture.

[DawnM]

The show also said they have been working with him for a year and he still isn't a fluent reader. Meanwhile the girls were doing quite well in school even with the FLDS education as a base.

 

I believe he does indeed have some form of dyslexia. It was evident (imo) when he tried to sound out the word "dogs."

 

I hope he gets the help he needs.

 

Dawn

 

How is that even possible? Once my kids start reading with the fundamentals, they are eager to keep at it on their own. They read road signs, cereal boxes, .... When they come across something that they can't pronounce or don't know how to blend they ask "what's these put to together say? Is ____ blank a word?" My 6 year old has been reading beginner books above her level, but I've not done anything other than let her as far as encouragement. Did the boy have no natural curiosity? Did people actively refuse to let him read? I don't understand how a child without LDs never even accidentally stumbled upon learning any new words or read anything else past 1st grade. The mind boggles at how screwed up a home had to be for that to happen to a child without LDs. :(

 

[Mergath]

 

 

 

See, that wouldn't work well up here in Minnesota. I live way down in the southern part of the state and we have significantly less snow than the way northern part (I'm looking at YOU, International Falls). We're all closed at different times due to weather. Heck, we don't even open at the same time. Most of the state starts school on the first weekday after Labor Day, but my local school got an exemption and they open in mid-August. That has created it's own weather related issues as most of the local schools have no air conditioning.

 

 

 

Lol... I grew up in International Falls, and those sadists have never heard of a snow day, believe me. I remember school being canceled exactly once, and it was seventy below with the wind chill. Fifty below? Get on the bus. :p

[Mergath]

It's Final in Ireland: Kids, Government Rule in Home Over Parent

 

 

This link is awash in Michael Farris quotes, but with no real facts about anything. Anyone have a link that's less biased on this one? It'd be interesting to see the actual wording of the laws.

[creekland]

Before I respond to quotes, I will mention that I consider "good" homeschooling to be the best option available to any particular student. By "good" I mean parents purposely providing an education tailored to their child, whether that be someone advanced, slower, LD, and allowing for whatever talents they have to shine. ("Good" does not mean high academics and ready to head to an Ivy IF that is not your student's niche.) There is no way a ps can compare with good homeschooling IMO.

 

That said, there are many who are not "good" homeschoolers out there. I know many of you don't see these folks - and that, I believe, causes the problems. If one never actually "sees" those going without food (or equivalent), one sees no need to help them. A show or two on TV might bring about sympathy, but no real need to change anything. If you are on here, reading this forum, you are pretty much guaranteed to be in the "good" category, because those who don't care certainly wouldn't spend any time researching anything!

 

Pennsylvania is the next state over. Terrible, terrible, horrible, awful, and draconian homeschool so-called laws. At least, it feels that way to a NJ person, to go from "Captain of the Ship" to "Vassal of the Commonwealth." We're still thinking through our convictions.

 

I love PA and consider it to be a model I would support nationally. ;) What they do is no different than requiring "things" to get a Driver's License or other such gov't intrusion. We want all kids to be educated to at least some extent. Not all will be brain surgeons, but all (without physical issues) should be able to read, write, and do simple math. It may not actually happen, but that is the goal.

 

 

I have often wondered why people in highly regulatory states don't fight to change their homeschool laws. Do you truly LIKE letting the state/school district into your home? If not, why not lobby to change the laws?

 

I would never fight to change our laws. I would vote to make them national. The school district has never interfered with how I taught my boys. I would never lobby to drop regulations because I CARE about other students rather than just my own. I SEE what some others do (or don't) homeschooling and it is no different than when I see kids going without food. I want the gov't to do what it can to protect those. Without laws, there is no way they can do anything educationally.

 

 

I will also point out that my father dropped out of public school in the third grade - could not read or write - and managed to do very well for himself.

 

 

Anyone can point to an individual and say, "see, it works this way!" Using that reasoning, we should all buy lottery tickets because it certainly can work.

 

If one looks at the majority who "succeed" in life you won't find many who can't read or write at least at a 4th grade level.

 

I do not feel as if I should have to give up my rights to homeschool my kids because of a cult. Nor should I have to give up my religious freedom to worship as I chose because of a cult. They should have NEVER labeled this cult as homeschooling in the first place.

 

I have given up NONE of my rights because I live in PA. We homeschooled exactly as we wanted to using curricula (including religious texts) I wanted. All I "gave up" was a couple of hours of my time and a few pieces of paper. I did that much to get a Driver's License here. I did more to get my mortgage.

 

 

Education is not a right. It is a social concern.

 

I could not disagree more. Education - to a basic level - is a right.

 

My question for those who are for regulation; where does it begin and where does it end? If testing is your answer, history proves that testing does absolutely nothing for education. Just read a basic history of education and you will see that the more regulation the worse education gets. Putting children into standardized boxes is something that I am fundamentally against. I believe it destroys the love of and drive to learn. Yes, people do things I am against in all areas of life, but that is what freedom looks like.

 

All my kids had to take were simple tests showing they could read, write, and do basic math. My kids passed these tests with ease. They are not at all difficult - not anything like the SAT/ACT or any college entrance stuff. In PA, the mandatory testing ends at 8th grade for homeschoolers (11th for ps). No one would have to teach to the tests for these tests. My kids took the tests and still love to learn. Taking the tests killed nothing.

 

I do not agree with having oodles of regulation in schools (or homeschools), but ensuring a minimum is met is not oodles of regulation. We have more regulation when we drive (stop signs, stop lights, rights of way, pedestrians, licenses, etc).

 

It's not like I'm marching around yelling,"Organic chemistry for all!" But I do think that all children have the right to learn basic reading, writing, and math skills at a bare minimum, regardless of whether or not the parents approve. Historically, lower classes with extremely low literacy levels haven't done too well for themselves. Literacy and liberty tend to go hand-in-hand. There was a reason the vast majority of slaves in the US weren't taught to read or write.

 

Perfectly stated! :iagree:

 

 

Let's say the kid "fails" the test. Then what? Mandate they be sent to public school? Why? When kids fail in public school, there is no mandate they be sent to private school or home schooled. They just continue as they were.

 

And let's say they do get sent to the public school and continue to "fail" there as well - then what? Do the parents get to decide to bring them back home?

 

A law that we can't stomach enforcing shouldn't be made. I for one could not stomach telling a non abusive parent what to do with their kid, much less where they must send their child 5 days a week.

 

What about LDs? Many parents don't want to undergo extensive and expensive medical and pyschological testing to get a dx for their child and frankly, the child's medical records are no ones business anyways. Should parents have to prove their child isn't ready to read at age 6 or 7 to still keep them at home or whatever?

 

 

If a student fails the test the parents are asked about it and given some suggestions. Most improve by the next year. The few who don't end up in court and the kids could end up in ps. I haven't seen any fail there. They may not end up top of their class, but they do end up learning to read, write, and do basic math to some level. ;)

 

Those who "fail" have parents who don't give a hoot and just don't want to be bothered to take the time to send their kids to ps. Many are on drugs or have other issues (the parents). They may buy the kid a Walmart workbook and expect the kid to teach themselves, but some don't even do that. By third grade, our state will step in. I consider that a positive thing. I have never seen an actively homeschooling parent get into "trouble." Their kids may not be educated up to what I would consider their potential, but those are not grounds for intervention. They only need to show the minimum.

 

 

 

The bigger issue is, though, education. Had these boys been subject to some kind of oversight the problem could have been caught here, too. And it's important this neglect is caught as often as possible. A basic education is a right, because it is connected to one's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." When your parents have purposely made you uneducated in terms of basic reading, writing, and arithmetic, you are kept from those three inalienable rights. They are slaves to their parents' decisions and that is wrong. Even the children of Christian Scientists are allowed life-saving medical procedures when the government steps in, takes temporary guardianship, and returns the child... alive...

 

I hear so many of you denouncing any further oversight for fear of the slippery slope. The extremists will always hurt the mainstream, but that only gets worse when the mainstream (responsible homeschoolers) fail to allow the larger population any means of distinguishing between the two. Instead of participating in an intelligent conversation, is it better to sell out these poor kids?

 

:iagree:

 

 

If by "standardized education" you mean "can read and add single-digit numbers by graduation" then yes, I whole-heartedly support standardized education.

 

Seeing so many people apoplectic with outrage at the idea of the government ensuring that all kids can read and write well enough to function really makes me concerned for the current generation of homeschooled kids. :blink:

 

I'm with you EXCEPT that I'm not concerned about the current generation of homeschooled kids as a whole. It does bug me that so many are willing to say it's ok for some to slip through the cracks just so they don't have to be bothered with something though. It's incredibly selfish the way I see it.

[creekland]

I just don't see an epidemic of crappy homeschoolers.

 

And this, I think, is the problem. That which one can't or doesn't see can't exist I suppose.

 

It doesn't exist on this board, but there are certainly those out there IRL. I suppose it's like drugs... those not in the culture have no idea what's really out there - just a mention or two here and there.

 

 

Sort of like McDonald's being put in charge of my weekly meal planning. :glare:

 

You know what? To a child who otherwise isn't getting ANY food, McD's being in charge of weekly meal planning would be considerably better. You made a great analogy for what we are talking about. ;) NO ONE is saying McD's has to be the "upper limit" for all - just that there should be a bottom that doesn't include "nothing." Limited testing is the easiest way to ensure all are getting fed - not just yours.

 

I honestly doubt that there are many neurologically typical 18 year olds that go through the ps system and don't learn to read. Seriously, that's not happening.

 

Right. There are NONE in our high school. That graphic shown later even starts at a 5th grade level - not true illiteracy when most documents are supposed to be written on a third grade level. That stat also likely included adult immigrants, older adults who had less access to schools (my grandma had to quit by 4th grade), and those with true LD (who have different standards). I wonder what the true stats for 18 year olds in ps and without major LD are. Even the majority of our LD kids can read at a 4th grade level. That beats the no-schoolers.

[laughing lioness]

This topic is so hard for me. On the one hand, it's terrifying to hear about children learning man never went to the moon, the sun is the center of the universe, Warren Jeffs is president.

 

 

 

Education is dangerous because it allows, causes, encourages thinking. This lack of edcuation being discussed took place (or rather, didn't take place) in a CULT. Does this have any bearing on the things being said, AT ALL? Of course, if Jeffs can keep his followers dumb sheep instead of criticaly thinking adults, he'll have followers.

[DawnM]

Wow. You are not kidding......that is the most right wing biased anti-our US president leaning article I have read! And the one about Kenya is just as biased if not more so. If I could post anything political, I would go on rant right now. I grew up in Kenya. I have some strong opinions (I know you all find that shocking!)

 

And really, is one allowed to even link such strongly political leaning links on this board?

 

This link is awash in Michael Farris quotes, but with no real facts about anything. Anyone have a link that's less biased on this one? It'd be interesting to see the actual wording of the laws.

 

[mhaddon]

I didn't think more hs'ing oversight would have saved the FLDS kids. My only point was that too many of the same objections could be raised about too many homeschoolers. I think the time has passed when we could say, "What do the non-schoolers have to do with me or my family? Nothing!" That may be true, but we are not what people think of when they think of homeschooling. They think of the children they know who failed in the ps when they returned, or the kids "pushed out" of ps against their parents' wishes, or the family in the town who doesn't allow the girls out of the house and whose boys can't read or write.

 

Not when even our state conventions are about lifestyle choices instead of academics. Not when Vision Forum, et al, have so carefully worked to make themselves the face of homeschooling. We're not as removed as I'd like to be. I want separate, inclusive, academic-focused and deliberate organizations, support groups, conventions, and websites. I think we would benefit from improving our publicity as serious, classical home educators.

 

And this is why I opted out of all religous homeschool facebook pages, emails, and websites. Reading them made me want to scream and throw things. And why I only go to the booths and do not listen to the speakers. I was sitting with a good friend when he started attacking why women shouldn't be in the military. It was her first year out as an officer and I had served myself. We couldn't walk out of the room fast enough, lol. I do not agree with 99% of the crap i was being sent. And also am no longer part of the brainwashed group that believes half the things they read and listen to. I'm sorry, but I'm homeschooling my children so they learn to think on their own- not to follow the heard of sheep to the kool aide :) I have seen a lot of cult like thinking in homeschool organizations, so what can be said for that?

[mhaddon]

In all honesty if the US could get it together like some of the other countries and offer specialized education I would be happy. I feel that not all children are tracked to be highly academic. I would like to see more vocational options in all schools. Vocations shouldn't be looked down upon. I also feel that students that excell in art would benefit from a seperate track. I

This link is awash in Michael Farris quotes, but with no real facts about anything. Anyone have a link that's less biased on this one? It'd be interesting to see the actual wording of the laws.

 

And this is the filth I'm talking about being flooded with. One sided and how many will take the time to gather real facts? :glare:

[Mergath]

Kenya: Bill Seeks to Lay Firm Ground for Education

The writer is communications officer, Ministry of Education

 

In this bill, there is no legal framework to allow for homeschooling. It's essentially dismissed as an option.

 

 

True, but they aren't the US. They have a much worse child labor problem than we do. Perhaps this is part of the solution. I wouldn't expect a country with vastly different cultures and problems than us to do things exactly the way we do.

[Mergath]

 

My point of the original links were to try to point out that the regulation we could accept (testing for basic reading and writing skills) to catch any kids that might fall through the cracks, could easily become required portfolios, curriculum lists, home visits or outright banning. If you give them an inch of regulation, they will take a mile.

 

 

But... they don't. At least, not as a rule. Regulations are going to change and adapt based on situation, but they don't always increase. Here in Minnesota, the amount of regulation actually decreased

[creekland]

Education is dangerous because it allows, causes, encourages thinking. This lack of edcuation being discussed took place (or rather, didn't take place) in a CULT. Does this have any bearing on the things being said, AT ALL? Of course, if Jeffs can keep his followers dumb sheep instead of criticaly thinking adults, he'll have followers.

 

 

The 20-20 original piece took place in a cult. None of what I've seen has taken place in a cult. It's taken place in regular homes - with parents who do not care about their kids. They won't get them to school as they don't want to get up and be bothered with it. They may need the kids to babysit younger siblings. They may be too drug addicted to care. They'll claim they are homeschooling, but aren't. Quite honestly, in our state, many of these do get caught and do get sent to ps (we get the hs dropouts... is a common phrase used). Since that is almost all the ps teachers see (as opposed to many on this board), it solidifies the anti-homeschooling stereotypes I combat there. Do these kids end up being academic superstars? Hardly ever - esp since they lost so much time in their formative years. Do they learn the basics - esp reading? Yes.

 

It's worth it.

 

I also agree that ps needs more vocational options... but that's a whole different subject. This is about ALL kids having the right to learn to read/write vs not because the parents won't be bothered to teach them, but call it homeschooling. The state needs a way to assist those kids.

[WIS0320]

 

Not when even our state conventions are about lifestyle choices instead of academics. Not when Vision Forum, et al, have so carefully worked to make themselves the face of homeschooling. We're not as removed as I'd like to be. I want separate, inclusive, academic-focused and deliberate organizations, support groups, conventions, and websites. I think we would benefit from improving our publicity as serious, classical home educators.

 

 

Yes! I had someone recommend the documentary Surfwise because they'd thought I'd like it because I am homeschooling my children. That family and their approach to education and childrearing has zero in common with what I am doing at home with my own children. It boggles my mind what some people think we do around here all day. When people learn that I am religious and active in practicing my faith they assume I am homeschooling because we are afraid to mix with secular families and I want to spend all day indoctrinating my children. Some of the casual comments people make in conversation about homeshooling are just plain weird and misinformed. And yet a lot of the current publicity about homeschooling is based on people like Ken Ham speaking at homeschooling conventions, cults who are inflicting educational neglect on their children and children who are being radically unschooled.

[mhaddon]

I do try. Sometimes I post before I gather it all, which is something I need to work on if I'm going to keep up with you ladies :closedeyes: , but I do try to gather all the facts. I apologize for that link. It was one-sided. Sometimes I get carried away and sometimes I'm just too tired to be typing and posting links on hotly debated topics. :blushing:

 

My point of the original links were to try to point out that the regulation we could accept (testing for basic reading and writing skills) to catch any kids that might fall through the cracks, could easily become required portfolios, curriculum lists, home visits or outright banning. If you give them an inch of regulation, they will take a mile. I don't want to have to change the way I homeschool because someone that has a degree in education, but has never taught a day in their life, nor homeschooled, decides that homeschoolers need to follow their guidelines.

 

It's very sad that parents can neglect their child's education. That has always happened and it will always happen. No matter how much regulation they put upon us, people who want to be under the radar, will be.

 

 

It's ok, you weren't the only one to post. lol. It was on the state website today. Which is what upsets me.

[pdalley]

The 20-20 original piece took place in a cult. None of what I've seen has taken place in a cult. It's taken place in regular homes - with parents who do not care about their kids. They won't get them to school as they don't want to get up and be bothered with it. They may need the kids to babysit younger siblings. They may be too drug addicted to care. They'll claim they are homeschooling, but aren't. Quite honestly, in our state, many of these do get caught and do get sent to ps (we get the hs dropouts... is a common phrase used). Since that is almost all the ps teachers see (as opposed to many on this board), it solidifies the anti-homeschooling stereotypes I combat there. Do these kids end up being academic superstars? Hardly ever - esp since they lost so much time in their formative years. Do they learn the basics - esp reading? Yes.

 

It's worth it.

 

I also agree that ps needs more vocational options... but that's a whole different subject. This is about ALL kids having the right to learn to read/write vs not because the parents won't be bothered to teach them, but call it homeschooling. The state needs a way to assist those kids.

 

Well, my point is that my local public school system has already demonstrated its failure to help my kids when they were part of their population. (This is the same system that failed my father and my brother as well so it's never - obviously - been that great of one even if their 'numbers' claim otherwise). Why on earth would I think they could help any child? I'm not about to launch into our nightmare story with our three special needs kids again but I've had it verified through DSS and Juvenile probation the school system broke the law with our kids on several occasions. I just was more worried about them getting an education than fighting with the school system any further. My energy only extends so far. Would you want those people overseeing your right to homeschool?

 

I totally agree with a vocational track being offered. However I do not oppose regulation because I don't want to be bothered. I oppose it because the locals have already proven to me they have no earthly idea what they are doing and have no desire to do better. I have no problems with NC's homeschooling laws. I also agree that I am sick and tired of homeschooling conventions really being worldview conventions. It's why I refuse to attend them. They offer me nothing.

 

I still think the problem in the 20/20 piece should be focused on the cult - not homeschooling. They aren't homeschooling. They have a private religious school. If 20/20 does a special focusing specifically on kids like you referenced - fine. But it was irresponsible of them to make it seem like homeschooling was the entire problem and not just a symptom.

[LibraryLover]

Education is dangerous because it allows, causes, encourages thinking. This lack of edcuation being discussed took place (or rather, didn't take place) in a CULT. Does this have any bearing on the things being said, AT ALL? Of course, if Jeffs can keep his followers dumb sheep instead of criticaly thinking adults, he'll have followers.

 

 

Jeffs is a disgusting human being. He gets to have his sexual fantasies played out even behind bars. Two men must watch a woman having sex with a man Jeffs chooses? I'm sure that poor kid, and many more, have LDs - and other issues we don't see. Abuse and inbreeding is going to have major fallout. All those women and girls, 15 men. Now left without even a midwife.

 

I think they did a very good job of exposing it as a cult, and how families are trying to get out. The program obviously wasn't about hsing. It was about Jeffs idea of an 'education'. They showed children in classrooms, even.

[Matryoshka]

My question for those who are for regulation; where does it begin and where does it end? If testing is your answer, history proves that testing does absolutely nothing for education. Just read a basic history of education and you will see that the more regulation the worse education gets. Putting children into standardized boxes is something that I am fundamentally against. I believe it destroys the love of and drive to learn. Yes, people do things I am against in all areas of life, but that is what freedom looks like.

 

My state is considered "high-regulation", but it's really not onerous at all. We have a choice of three methods of assessment:

 

1. standardized testing

2. portfolio/work samples

3. progress report

 

I always have chosen progress report. I just summarize what we've done for the year, and I also have to submit an "education plan" which is what I plan to cover next year ("I plan" is key - there's no requirement to stick to the plan to follow rabbit trails or huck something that isn't working). My ed plan is usually just a line akin to "we'll do more of the same next year" at the end of the progress report. A progress report only has to show progress, not any particular level, and there's nothing to teach to.

 

I would not want to be limited to just testing as an assessment, but I don't mind having it on the list. I also honestly don't like the trend in some regulated states to have to meet with outside evaluators.

 

In my "high-regulation" state, the case law has specifically stated that home visits cannot be required, and that the state cannot direct our specific curriculum choices, nor act like homeschooling should mimic an institutional setting (though admittedly sometimes ignorant bureaucrats need to be quoted these bits to remind them).

[bethben]

In early colonial days, there was a very high degree of literacy in their society - all without regulation and oversight - without government schools and without 13 plus years of formal education. The society demanded a literate people in order to participate in society. The articles the common farmer read were at a level that college students today have a hard time grasping. In order to just participate in society at that time would require people to have a decent ability to think and reason. I would argue that our society doesn't require or even desire the majority of it's citizens to be able to be as educated as those early colonist were. You can function quite nicely (although you are very limited in your options) in our society where much of the stuff we read (newspapers/magazines) is written at an 8th grade or lower reading level. And if you can't read? You can still get by. Tweeting and texting don't require decent spelling or grammar, you can get a lot of information through the television. Can't read about the issues or who to vote for? The television will tell you all that you want to know. I would argue until our society demands a people who can reason/read/write at a fairly high level, no amount of oversite by any agency will give us an educated society. You can force someone to be schooled. They can't be forced to learn. The problem is much larger than regulation of education.

 

Beth

[DawnM]

I can see some of the reasoning here. Many, if not most parents in Kenya are not educated themselves.

 

Here in NC, one must have a min. of a high school diploma in order to homeschool.

 

Even in the 90s, Kenya was still trying to implement mandatory schooling. It was not easy. Rural areas are not only hard to regulate, but families don't see the necessity of sending children who can work on the farm, to school to learn things they will never need.

 

School is also expensive. Many cannot afford to send their children.

 

In the 60s, Kenya had a policy that each family must send at least one child to school.

 

So, I think they have come a long way since that time.

 

I am in the middle of doing something else with the kids but will come back later with a few more thoughts.

 

Dawn

 

Sorry about that. I will remove it. It was inflammatory and unnecessary.

 

 

Here is the actual Kenyan bill

The Education Bill Draft 2012

 

 

 

I'm looking for anything about homeschooling options, and I don't see it. If you do please post. I think it's great that they are providing this option. I just think that they are outlawing homeschooling by omission.