20/20 episode last night

[Mergath]

My question for those who are for regulation; where does it begin and where does it end? If testing is your answer, history proves that testing does absolutely nothing for education. Just read a basic history of education and you will see that the more regulation the worse education gets. Putting children into standardized boxes is something that I am fundamentally against. I believe it destroys the love of and drive to learn. Yes, people do things I am against in all areas of life, but that is what freedom looks like.

 

The kind of testing they do now doesn't help, to be sure, but I think that many of us who support minimal regulation would like to see something more along the lines of making sure older elementary kids can at least read somewhat and do very basic math. I'm not talking about testing first graders on history and science, or anything like that. But making sure that a sixth grader can at least read at, say, a third grade level, isn't exactly draconian. And there are many countries that also have standardized testing and do extremely well, so it's not as if the two are mutually exclusive. The countries that top out the education lists also have very strict regulation, so your above statement isn't true from a global perspective.

[Mergath]

Should a government body demand to approve your menus to guarantee that your kids are getting enough nutrition? Where does it end?

 

That's a ridiculous argument, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[meggie]

Regarding the educational neglect, Utah does have laws on what parents are supposed to teach. Parents are supposed to teach 180 days or 810 hours for first grade and 990 hours for second grade and up. There is a list of subjects that need to be taught, English, Science, History, PE, and the other basic ones are among them. Every year, homeschoolers need to send in an affadavit saying they will comply with these laws. If there is suspicion of educational neglect, it can be reported and parents could be charged if there is proof of neglect.

 

I haven't seen the show in question, but I suspect all this wouldn't be of any use since it seems like this is a private school, not an actual homeschool.

[mommymilkies]

The kind of testing they do now doesn't help, to be sure, but I think that many of us who support minimal regulation would like to see something more along the lines of making sure older elementary kids can at least read somewhat and do very basic math. I'm not talking about testing first graders on history and science, or anything like that. But making sure that a sixth grader can at least read at, say, a third grade level, isn't exactly draconian. And there are many countries that also have standardized testing and do extremely well, so it's not as if the two are mutually exclusive. The countries that top out the education lists also have very strict regulation, so your above statement isn't true from a global perspective.

I agree. The testing done now is not helpful in the slightest. Not to mention I couldn't answer some of my 5th grade dd's questions on U.S. History/politics on the ITBS and I was a Poli Sci major for a year! We really need to look at the countries that are getting results and take note. However, I still want the ability to homeschool. I wouldn't actually mind a good, qualified teacher to consult with like is optional in some areas of Canada from my reading. Maybe a few choices for oversight?

[meggie]

There is no way for the state to "go in and follow due process" in places with zero oversight. What would they use as the benchmark? They can't say, "Well, this seventeen-year-old can't read so we're going to do something," if there isn't a law requiring a certain reading level by a given age. In order for the state to intervene in cases of educational neglect, there has to be a law defining what that is, and that law, by its very definition, would be a form of regulation of homeschooling. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't say, "I want no oversight of me, but the state can step in when those other homeschoolers don't do it right." It doesn't work like that.

 

This is the post I was responding to, but rereading it now, maybe she isn't talking about Utah? Utah does have some oversight, but it is minimal. Sorry if my post was off topic.

[briansmama]

The number of homeschooled children being abused and/or neglected is very small, and there are far more a used/neglected children in the public school system than outside of it.

 

I cringe when I I hear anyone call fro more homeschooling regulation- we choose to not send our children to public school because we don't want our children fed, clothed, or educated by the state. Once we allow the state to oversee our children's education we become part of the public system.

 

More regulation of homeschoolers by the state equals state standardization, and we have no interest in a standardized Ed for our children.

[Murphy101]

I'm against regulating and testing because I don't see the point.

 

Let's say the kid "fails" the test. Then what? Mandate they be sent to public school? Why? When kids fail in public school, there is no mandate they be sent to private school or home schooled. They just continue as they were.

 

And let's say they do get sent to the public school and continue to "fail" there as well - then what? Do the parents get to decide to bring them back home?

 

A law that we can't stomach enforcing shouldn't be made. I for one could not stomach telling a non abusive parent what to do with their kid, much less where they must send their child 5 days a week.

 

What about LDs? Many parents don't want to undergo extensive and expensive medical and pyschological testing to get a dx for their child and frankly, the child's medical records are no ones business anyways. Should parents have to prove their child isn't ready to read at age 6 or 7 to still keep them at home or whatever?

 

Mandating regulation and testing doesn't solve the problem. It just creates a warren of slippery issues.

[Murphy101]

Deleted dbl post. It is REALLY frustrating to avoid double posting on the new boards!? Maybe it's an iPad/iPhone issue?

[ScoutTN]

I am firmly opposed to any extension of governmental authority. Ever. We do not need to feed the monster! It is already too big, too expensive, enormously ineffective and increasingly invasive.

 

If you think that parents whose children have not received a good, basic education should be held responsible, what do you do with parents whose children are in public school and cannot read or do basic math? (Assuming children without LD or other special needs for the sake of a general discussion.) Who is responsible and how do you fix correct the problem? (Systemically, not remedially.)

 

I think that specific situations should be addressed by local communities and with as little governmental input as possible. The 20/20 episode focused on a very specific situation that 1) is not actually homeschooling 2) is completely wrapped up in the identity and workings of a cult. The needs there go way beyond what any agency can deliver. Relationships, not regulation are the path to healing and healthy lives, but who will step in and love these people?

Perhaps the local, normal, balanced LDS communities would be a place to start? They are not like Warren Jeffs people, but they are the best to build a bridge, perhaps?

[Mergath]

The number of homeschooled children being abused and/or neglected is very small, and there are far more a used/neglected children in the public school system than outside of it.

 

I cringe when I I hear anyone call fro more homeschooling regulation- we choose to not send our children to public school because we don't want our children fed, clothed, or educated by the state. Once we allow the state to oversee our children's education we become part of the public system.

 

More regulation of homeschoolers by the state equals state standardization, and we have no interest in a standardized Ed for our children.

 

But your children are, in some ways, fed, clothed, and educated by the state, albeit indirectly. The government subsidizes certain crops, like cotton and corn, which means that it's paying for part of your food and clothing. The big states, like Texas and California, have a huge say in what goes into public school textbooks, and some of those changes eventually trickle down to the hsing industry whether we want to admit it or not. Unless you live completely off the grid, grow every crumb of your own food, and weave your own fabric, the government is helping to care for your children, and you are part of the system. So that's really not an effective argument against hsing regulation.

[Mergath]

Deleted dbl post. It is REALLY frustrating to avoid double posting on the new boards!? Maybe it's an iPad/iPhone issue?

 

It happens to me, too. Sometimes when I hit post it loads and then... nothing, so I have to refresh to see if my post made it up. *grumble*

[Murphy101]

Bah. You presume she or I agree with govt subsidies for those situations either. I don't.

 

Your argument seems to be that it doesn't matter if the govt does it well or ethically or actual resolves the problem. It comes across as you don't care whether the regulation or testing makes any difference. You just want it as a feel good measure bc it looks like something is being done.

 

Idk if that is your stance, but that is how it comes across.

 

And again, as previously stated by myself and others, the 20/20 epi didn't even have anything to do with home schooling.

[ScoutTN]

That's a ridiculous argument, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

I disgree. I think it is related, if tangentially perhaps.

Some schools in CA have forbidden families to send lunch from home and insisted that all children eat the highly-processed food they serve.

The principle is essentially the same.

Government control (by elite "experts", for our benefit, because we can't make good choices, of course.) or parental control.

[Murphy101]

Dadblum cotton pickin.... Grumble.... Dbl post...

[Mergath]

If you think that parents whose children have not received a good, basic education should be held responsible, what do you do with parents whose children are in public school and cannot read or do basic math? (Assuming children without LD or other special needs for the sake of a general discussion.) Who is responsible and how do you fix correct the problem? (Systemically, not remedially.)

 

Provide them with resources to help their children learn. Tutoring, curricula, consultations. After all, we all still pay taxes whether our children go to school or not, so it's not too much to ask that we get something for it. With most of the parents I know, if an older child is functionally illiterate, they'd be happy to have access to a professional tutor, for example, to work with the child. If years go by and the parents refuse any help and have a teenager who can't even read at a first grade level, require the services be utilized before the child in question can do things like receive Pell grants or whatnot. Make the services available after the child turns eighteen so he or she can develop basic skills even if the parents disagree.

 

I'm sure others would have different ideas about the finer points, but there are certainly plenty of solutions out there that don't require us to line up our kids and march them into a public school.

[nmoira]

My question for those who are for regulation; where does it begin and where does it end? If testing is your answer, history proves that testing does absolutely nothing for education. Just read a basic history of education and you will see that the more regulation the worse education gets. Putting children into standardized boxes is something that I am fundamentally against. I believe it destroys the love of and drive to learn. Yes, people do things I am against in all areas of life, but that is what freedom looks like.

 

Setting a low threshold does not require "teaching to the test," or, indeed any preparation at all. I don't find the regulations in Oregon to be onerous or unreasonable. Testing by a private tester is required in 3, 5, 8 and 10. If the composite score (reading and math) is in below the 15th percentile, testing is required the next year. If the score is the same or higher than the first, the child goes back to the normal schedule; if not, they are tested again the next year. If the score declines again, "then the superintendent may allow the parent to continue homeschooling as before, or may require continued supervision and testing, or may remand the child to school for up to 12 months." Kids with an IEP are exempt from testing requirements.

[Mergath]

Bah. You presume she or I agree with govt subsidies for those situations either. I don't.

 

Your argument seems to be that it doesn't matter if the govt does it well or ethically or actual resolves the problem. It comes across as you don't care whether the regulation or testing makes any difference. You just want it as a feel good measure bc it looks like something is being done.

 

Idk if that is your stance, but that is how it comes across.

 

And again, as previously stated by myself and others, the 20/20 epi didn't even have anything to do with home schooling.

 

Are you replying to me here?

 

I just posted what I think should be offered if kids can't pass tests for basic literacy and math, so I refer you to that. :) I do think there are ways in which the government can help without completely taking over, and that's what I would like to see- a middle ground that ensures the best possible outcome for our kids.

 

Why do you say they weren't homeschoolers? Because they were sitting in desks in one shot? Does that mean homeschoolers who attend coops aren't really homeschoolers? Or kids who use desks and a schoolroom in their home? If we disavow any homeschooler who does a crappy job as "not really a hser," we aren't doing anyone any favors.

[Murphy101]

I disgree. I think it is related, if tangentially perhaps.

Some schools in CA have forbidden families to send lunch from home and insisted that all children eat the highly-processed food they serve.

The principle is essentially the same.

Government control (by elite "experts", for our benefit, because we can't make good choices, of course.) or parental control.

 

 

Indeed. And it's nothing new. Waaaay back when my oldest was in 1st grade public for a whopping 6 weeks before I pulled him...

 

He could do very well. He could read small chapter books, add double digits and such. Most of his class however were still learning the alphabet and how to count to 100. Literally. I'm not being at all hyperbolic.

 

His teacher assured me it was fine to let my kid stagnate. She used softer words, but basicly she did not want him to continue on his learning curve. I offered to bring stuff from home that he could do instead of being bored in class (bored boy = not good behavior). She flat out told me I could not bring reading material or math worksheets for him because it wasn't approved. When I kindly noted that the previous year he went to 1/2 day private kindergarten and needs the mental stimulus to continue to avoid discouragement and boredom she actually said, "It's not my fault you sent him to private school last year."

 

That was the moment I knew I was wasting my time even thinking the public schools had anything to offer us. Came home and cried to my dh about how this school wasn't safe (kids couldn't even shut the door to go pee bc of bullies) and they weren't getting an education but we couldn't do private school and OMG what were we going to do and dh is the one who told me to home school. I didn't know ANYONE that home schooled. I called a near stranger and begged her for guidance. Ordered the curricula she used and withdrew my kids the day it arrived in the mail.

 

So it might not be approved menus. But absolutely public school regulations are out of hand and over stepping as it is. If they were actually effecting positive change on things that our society is in agreement upon (is there anything?) then I might be more open to at least considering it. But it doesn't seem that way to me, so I'm not open to it.

[ScoutTN]

Provide them with resources to help their children learn. Tutoring, curricula, consultations. After all, we all still pay taxes whether our children go to school or not, so it's not too much to ask that we get something for it. With most of the parents I know, if an older child is functionally illiterate, they'd be happy to have access to a professional tutor, for example, to work with the child. If years go by and the parents refuse any help and have a teenager who can't even read at a first grade level, require the services be utilized before the child in question can do things like receive Pell grants or whatnot. Make the services available after the child turns eighteen so he or she can develop basic skills even if the parents disagree.

 

I'm sure others would have different ideas about the finer points, but there are certainly plenty of solutions out there that don't require us to line up our kids and march them into a public school.

 

 

 

Hmm. I'm not sure I follow your train of thought. I was speaking of children already in public school, not homeschooled children. There are thousands upon thousands who are already receiving the full benefit of what government schools can do for them and cannot read or do basic math. (Nevermind knowing some basic American history and science!)

 

My point was that homeschoolers are not the majority of those who are being poorly educated. Homeschooling parents whose children are not succeeding academically are scorned and people call for regulation. My point is that the agencies responsible for the education of the majority of American children are doing a much, much poorer job overall that homeschoolers. If the government is ineffective, why should they be able to regulate our effectiveness?

 

 

(again, assuming a "typically developing" child for the sake aof a genral discussion, realizing that children with LD and or special needs children have all sorts of other issues educationally)

[Mergath]

Hmm. I'm not sure I follow your train of thought. I was speaking of children already in public school, not homeschooled children. There are thousands upon thousands who are already receiving the full benefit of what government schools can do for them and cannot read or do basic math. (Nevermind knowing some basic American history and science!)

 

My point was that homeschoolers are not the majority of those who are being poorly educated. Homeschooling parents whose children are not succeeding academically are scorned and people call for regulation. My point is that the agencies responsible for the education of the majority of American children are doing a much, much poorer job overall that homeschoolers. If the government is ineffective, why should they be able to regulate our effectiveness?

 

 

(again, assuming a "typically developing" child for the sake aof a genral discussion, realizing that children with LD and or special needs children have all sorts of other issues educationally)

 

 

I was talking about hsers who don't meet the theoretical minimum standards we've all been discussing, so obviously we're running on completely different trains of thought here. :p

[Murphy101]

Provide them with resources to help their children learn. Tutoring, curricula, consultations. After all, we all still pay taxes whether our children go to school or not, so it's not too much to ask that we get something for it. With most of the parents I know, if an older child is functionally illiterate, they'd be happy to have access to a professional tutor, for example, to work with the child. If years go by and the parents refuse any help and have a teenager who can't even read at a first grade level, require the services be utilized before the child in question can do things like receive Pell grants or whatnot. Make the services available after the child turns eighteen so he or she can develop basic skills even if the parents disagree.

 

We DO offer that now!? There are some cases of the well off having these problems and for them it's no issue to avail themselves of the best options to resolve it.

 

But most schools do offer tutoring and curricula and consultations. They suck at it. If you have a single mom or two working parents on less than decent income, when are they supposed to take off work to get their kid to tutoring and consultations? It's expensive, takes a ton of time and it's almost a full time job just to get the programs for your kid and it often won't happen until they are very far behind. The kid who is failing might eventually get help, but there is very little help for him to avoid reaching failure level. And community colleges are flooded with doing exactly what you suggest - helping kids over 18 make up for the education they didn't receive the previous 13 years. Our local schools have approximately 60% of students needing remedial math and English courses at the community college before they can even start taking anything for credit. That is still a huge problem. It presumes families that can afford to spend a year or more at community college on classes that aren't even for credit towards any degree. Many students get too discouraged to do it. (I don't agree with it but I do understand the mentality of it.)

 

 

Why do you say they weren't homeschoolers? Because they were sitting in desks in one shot? Does that mean homeschoolers who attend coops aren't really homeschoolers? Or kids who use desks and a schoolroom in their home? If we disavow any homeschooler who does a crappy job as "not really a hser," we aren't doing anyone any favors.

 

 

I would agree with you except they were cult. In order to say you are something, you usually have to have some base quality of that something. If i call myself a flamingo, does that make it so? It reasonable for some else to note that I have none of the qualities of a flamingo and therefore am not actually a flamingo, yes? If home schooled you have to actually be educating, however minimally or badly. If they are literally not even teaching how to add or read? That isn't home schooling.

 

I will have to watch the epi. I have not so far. Can someone link it? A pp noted that some of the girls did in fact attend the local high school and were doing fine? Hmmm. Which again, kids learning at public school means they are public school students not home schoolers.

 

None of that is me disavowing anyone. It is stating obvious facts.

[Mergath]

We DO offer that now!? There are some cases of the well off having these problems and for them it's no issue to avail themselves of the best options to resolve it.

 

But most schools do offer tutoring and curricula and consultations. They suck at it. If you have a single mom or two working parents on less than decent income, when are they supposed to take off work to get their kid to tutoring and consultations? It's expensive, takes a ton of time and it's almost a full time job just to get the programs for your kid and it often won't happen until they are very far behind. The kid who is failing might eventually get help, but there is very little help for him to avoid reaching failure level. And community colleges are flooded with doing exactly what you suggest - helping kids over 18 make up for the education they didn't receive the previous 13 years. Our local schools have approximately 60% of students needing remedial math and English courses at the community college before they can even start taking anything for credit. That is still a huge problem. It presumes families that can afford to spend a year or more at community college on classes that aren't even for credit towards any degree. Many students get too discouraged to do it. (I don't agree with it but I do understand the mentality of it.)

 

 

 

 

I would agree with you except they were cult. In order to say you are something, you usually have to have some base quality of that something. If i call myself a flamingo, does that make it so? It reasonable for some else to note that I have none of the qualities of a flamingo and therefore am not actually a flamingo, yes? If home schooled you have to actually be educating, however minimally or badly. If they are literally not even teaching how to add or read? That isn't home schooling.

 

I will have to watch the epi. I have not so far. Can someone link it? A pp noted that some of the girls did in fact attend the local high school and were doing fine? Hmmm. Which again, kids learning at public school means they are public school students not home schoolers.

 

None of that is me disavowing anyone. It is stating obvious facts.

 

 

I don't know, I was talking about hsers who can't pass basic tests getting outside help for literacy and math, so obviously our discussion must have diverged at some point here. :p This is what comes of posting on only one cup of coffee.

 

In the episode- I think there's a link in the op- there's a lot of talk about the kids being homeschooled. There's a shot of some kids sitting in what looks like a classroom, but from what I understood those weren't the same kids, and likely had nothing to do with the homeschooling part. The part about grades refers to an FLDS family that left the religion and eventually put their kids in a normal public school.

[Murphy101]

I was talking about hsers who don't meet the theoretical minimum standards we've all been discussing, so obviously we're running on completely different trains of thought here. :p

 

I don't know, I was talking about hsers who can't pass basic tests getting outside help for literacy and math, so obviously our discussion must have diverged at some point here. :p This is what comes of posting on only one cup of coffee.

 

 

I'm thoroughly confused. You proposed more regulation and specificly answered how failing testing could be dealt with.

 

And that is what I responded to. I thought it was the same train of thought. How is it not? I'm telling you that your proposals ARE in effect for public school students here. Home schoolers can avail themselves of the same resources through their public schools in most states. And it isn't working.

 

Yet you continue to hold your position that the solution for home school educational neglect is to have the same govt agencies continue to do more of what isn't working in schools for home schoolers? *confused*

[coralloyd]

The kind of testing they do now doesn't help, to be sure, but I think that many of us who support minimal regulation would like to see something more along the lines of making sure older elementary kids can at least read somewhat and do very basic math. I'm not talking about testing first graders on history and science, or anything like that. But making sure that a sixth grader can at least read at, say, a third grade level, isn't exactly draconian. And there are many countries that also have standardized testing and do extremely well, so it's not as if the two are mutually exclusive. The countries that top out the education lists also have very strict regulation, so your above statement isn't true from a global perspective.

 

 

You are arguing for something that is nonexistent in this country then. The success of other countries is

not based on their standardized tests. It is their completely different systems. Finland, for example doesn't start school till age 7. Their teachers are given a lot more control/freedom without as much regulation and are highly educated. There is less time in the class room and more time on the playground. So I guess we can debate this when the US completely changes it's model. Until then I have no desire for their regulation.

 

ETA: Deleted part of my post that was not accurate and added a little.

[In The Great White North]

I don't have a problem with General Oversite. Those who are educating their children shouldn't either.

 

This is totally illogical. Just because I know I will pass the inspection does NOT mean I won't have a problem with having to submit to an inspection in the first place.

[butterflymommy]

When the states correct the educational neglect in public schools, then *maybe* I'll bother to listen to this nonsense that more regulations equals better.

 

 

True. Unfortunately it is not uncommon to find public school educated 18 year olds who can't read or who are functionally illiterate. Math illiteracy and functional math illiteracy are even more common. 75% of high school graduates entering city colleges in my area need remedial reading and math education once in college.

 

I knew a woman who taught a remedial reading college program in SC and the final exam consisted of: writing one complete sentence.

[ScoutTN]

You are arguing for something that is nonexistent in this country then. The success of other countries is

not based on their standardized tests. It is their completely different systems. Finland, for example doesn't start school till age 7. Their teachers are given a lot more control/freedom without as much regulation and are highly educated. The schools follow a competitive business model. So I guess we can debate this when the US completely changes it's model. Until then I have no desire for their regulation.

 

 

I agree. The model needs to change. To models - plural. No more one size fits all. Let communities control their schools and reduce the state gov't. to support role, not control. Leave the Feds out entirely. I do think that the "competitive business model" can be a huge help, as many charter schools have demonstrated. BUT, we have to be wary of comparing apples to oranges or thinking that there is one magic solution. America is large and hugely diverse in so many aspects. We can borrow ideas from other nations, but not import their systems wholesale. Each country is unique and what works in one state or city will not necessarily work well elsewhere.

 

Since not everyone wants to or can homeschool, public schools which are truly locally controlled are the place to start, imo.

[coralloyd]

I agree. The model needs to change. To models - plural. No more one size fits all. Let communities control their schools and reduce the state gov't. to support role, not control. Leave the Feds out entirely. I do think that the "competitive business model" can be a huge help, as many charter schools have demonstrated. BUT, we have to be wary of comparing apples to oranges or thinking that there is one magic solution. America is large and hugely diverse in so many aspects. We can borrow ideas from other nations, but not import their systems wholesale. Each country is unique and what works in one state or city will not necessarily work well elsewhere.

Since not everyone wants to or can homeschool, public schools which are truly locally controlled are the place to start, imo.

 

I agree with you completely. I was just arguing the point that so much needs to change that there is no way our current system should be regulating homeschooling.

[renmew]

I watched the 20/20 video, and I understand that my opinion may be meaningless to many of you since I do not homeschool and I am also a teacher. As I was reading through these posts, I can honestly say I didn't know which side I sat on. So, I decided to do the dishes... I do my best thinking while doing the dishes or showering.

 

A previous poster mentioned how these communities can often be handled through the application of current laws that have nothing to do with homeschooling. I agree with that. In the video the 18 year old boy talks about how many hours these (1000 +) boys were required to work daily on construction sites. A local contractor verified, so this is a well-known fact in the community at large. Where are the proper government officials on this one?

 

The bigger issue is, though, education. Had these boys been subject to some kind of oversight the problem could have been caught here, too. And it's important this neglect is caught as often as possible. A basic education is a right, because it is connected to one's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." When your parents have purposely made you uneducated in terms of basic reading, writing, and arithmetic, you are kept from those three inalienable rights. They are slaves to their parents' decisions and that is wrong. Even the children of Christian Scientists are allowed life-saving medical procedures when the government steps in, takes temporary guardianship, and returns the child... alive. The brainwashing, the fear... how scary it must be to even think of leaving this life when you know how unprepared you are to survive on the outside.

 

I hear so many of you denouncing any further oversight for fear of the slippery slope. The extremists will always hurt the mainstream, but that only gets worse when the mainstream (responsible homeschoolers) fail to allow the larger population any means of distinguishing between the two. Instead of participating in an intelligent conversation, is it better to sell out these poor kids? Or, better yet, wait until the larger population overreacts and goes off the deep end, instituting far more aggressive regulations that seem to affect everyone and still not solve the real problem... 'cause the larger population has a habit of doing that, you know.

 

Even though I am a teacher, I truly respect what you all do. I believe in it, and I would stand up for all of you in the event that your ability to homeschool your own children was ever called into question. But, I'm sorry, that support doesn't hold for parents who think a 3rd grade education is enough and then it's time to earn your keep through 7+ hours of manual labor seven days a week with no pay. That is wrong.

[Mergath]

I'm thoroughly confused. You proposed more regulation and specificly answered how failing testing could be dealt with.

 

And that is what I responded to. I thought it was the same train of thought. How is it not? I'm telling you that your proposals ARE in effect for public school students here. Home schoolers can avail themselves of the same resources through their public schools in most states. And it isn't working.

 

Yet you continue to hold your position that the solution for home school educational neglect is to have the same govt agencies continue to do more of what isn't working in schools for home schoolers? *confused*

 

Homeschoolers can opt to have the government pay for private professional tutors? Maybe where you live, but that's not the case here. The only thing I proposed was that homeschoolers should be subject to extremely basic testing to make sure they meet minimum reading, writing, and math levels, and that if they can't meet the standard, the government use the tax dollars we pay for resources to help them meet that basic level, such as outside tutors. Say what you like about public schools, but most kids do come out able to read at an elementary level and do basic addition and subtraction. If a homeschooler can't meet even that low standard, like the boy in the video, I do think public services could help. Having entire grades of kids graduate without the ability to read at even a low level isn't something that is widespread, and has been sensationalized by the media. Yes, there are a few dropout factories where this is the case, but it's definitely the exception, not the rule.

 

If you don't agree with that, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point.

[Mergath]

You are arguing for something that is nonexistent in this country then. The success of other countries is

not based on their standardized tests. It is their completely different systems. Finland, for example doesn't start school till age 7. Their teachers are given a lot more control/freedom without as much regulation and are highly educated. There is less time in the class room and more time on the playground. So I guess we can debate this when the US completely changes it's model. Until then I have no desire for their regulation.

 

ETA: Deleted part of my post that was not accurate and added a little.

 

I didn't say that the testing is the sole cause of their success. It's a combination of everything they do: far better funding, better training and stricter standards for teachers, a standardized curriculum so that teachers know what children have already learned and where they're at... All things that most of the homeschoolers I've talked to oppose for our country, btw.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Why do you say they weren't homeschoolers? Because they were sitting in desks in one shot? Does that mean homeschoolers who attend coops aren't really homeschoolers? Or kids who use desks and a schoolroom in their home? If we disavow any homeschooler who does a crappy job as "not really a hser," we aren't doing anyone any favors.

 

The FLDS schools operate under the private schools laws, not the home schooling laws. Though the kids are are educated at home and by the parents they are doing so through an school.

[Mergath]

The FLDS schools operate under the private schools laws, not the home schooling laws. Though the kids are are educated at home and by the parents they are doing so through an school.

 

Huh... Does that make a difference in how they're (supposed to be) educated? I don't know much about the laws in Utah. There must be a reason they do it that way.

[renmew]

Huh... Does that make a difference in how they're (supposed to be) educated? I don't know much about the laws in Utah. There must be a reason they do it that way.

 

My guess is the FLDS wants them educated with the materials they produce, so using a private school designation takes care of that. They don't want mom frequenting the Well Trained Mind forums looking for curriculum recommendations... that's looking for trouble.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I've been reading up about the education system in the FLDS church. It's changed radically in the last few years. Before Warren Jeffs the children largely went to public schools, though there was a private and residential school in Salt Lake City. Women could learn to be midwives and even get advanced degrees, so they weren't all restricted to "just" being mothers. There are FLDS communities across the US and into Canada. Warren Jeffs has said that children in the FLDS church should be homeschooled. However, he made that statement only in 2000. So yes, the eighteen year old boy who couldn't read was likely part of the public school system before being brought home to school. Since I last did research it does look like more FLDS kids are homeschooled with Warren Jeffs-approved materials.

 

When the state of Texas came in an took most of the children from the YFZ compound in 2008 they did lots of testing. Texas found the kids to generally be at grade level.

 

This is a good overview of the homeschooling laws in Utah - http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/laws/blUT.htm#.ULKI3oc0WSo There are requirements for homeschooling that is tied to educational benchmarks - http://www.uen.org/core/ . The state formerly require testing, attendance records and the like but repealed those laws a few years ago.

 

So with all that information under our belts we can look more closely at what regulations work and which don't.

[Slartibartfast]

The FLDS schools operate under the private schools laws, not the home schooling laws. Though the kids are are educated at home and by the parents they are doing so through an school.

 

In some states all the homeschoolers are using "private schools." That is how some state's laws work.

[Taz007]

Warren Jeffs has said that children in the FLDS church should be homeschooled. However, he made that statement only in 2000. So yes, the eighteen year old boy who couldn't read was likely part of the public school system before being brought home to school.

I am trying to do the math but based on what you just wrote, the 18 year old may not have been part of the public school system or if he was, it could have been only for a few months to a year. If Jeff's made the statement in 2000 and it is 2012 now, that is 12 years. He wouldn't enter kindergarten until he was 5 years old. 5 + 12 years = 17 yrs. Am I missing something? (I admit, I am currently in dire need of caffeine!). :-)

[Elizabeth in MN]

I am trying to do the math but based on what you just wrote, the 18 year old may not have been part of the public school system or if he was, it could have been only for a few months to a year. If Jeff's made the statement in 2000 and it is 2012 now, that is 12 years. He wouldn't enter kindergarten until he was 5 years old. 5 + 12 years = 17 yrs. Am I missing something? (I admit, I am currently in dire need of caffeine!). :-)

 

 

Ah yes, math. Well, you'd be right and I'd be wrong. So it is possible that he was home schooled his whole life. I have no excuse as I had a huge Coke today.

[Sahamamama]

...how many hours these (1000 +) boys were required to work daily on construction sites. A local contractor verified, so this is a well-known fact in the community at large. Where are the proper government officials on this one? The bigger issue is, though, education. Had these boys been subject to some kind of oversight the problem could have been caught here, too. And it's important this neglect is caught as often as possible. A basic education is a right, because it is connected to one's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." When your parents have purposely made you uneducated in terms of basic reading, writing, and arithmetic, you are kept from those three inalienable rights. They are slaves to their parents' decisions and that is wrong. Even the children of Christian Scientists are allowed life-saving medical procedures when the government steps in, takes temporary guardianship, and returns the child... alive. The brainwashing, the fear... how scary it must be to even think of leaving this life when you know how unprepared you are to survive on the outside.

 

Yes, as you say, the child labor abuses are a well-known fact in the community at large. Think about that for a minute. Hmmm....

 

Why doesn't someone do something about this problem on the basis of existing CHILD LABOR laws? Why would you need laws specifically regulating homeschooling throughout the state(s) in question, in order to correct child labor abuses? Why would all homeschoolers in Utah or Arizona, in any state, need to be "subject to some kind of oversight" in order to correct what is basically a child labor issue of a very secretive, controlling, and abusive cult?

 

I've read Elissa Wall's book (Stolen Innocence) and Carolyn Jessop's book (Escape). The FLDS is not going to comply so easily with outside oversight, as you suggest. Here's a group that flouts all laws of the land, and no one in the states of Utah or Arizona seems to CARE.

 

Let's not talk about homeschooling, let's talk about Warren Jeffs. Here's a man whose father (Rulon) had at least 75 wives, and when Rulon died, his son (Warren) married about 20 of his father's wives. "Hands off my father's wives." Except Warren did NOT keep his hands off. He simply didn't redistribute those 20 to other men, but kept them for his own use.

 

Prior to his incarceration, Warren had about 70 wives. According to 20/20, one of his wives testified about how they would all sit around together touching him.

 

Carolyn Jessop was one of Merrill Jessop's many wives. When his first wife, Faunita, became mentally ill, she was dumped on the side of the road as the group left for Texas. Carolyn's biography alleges numerous child abuses and spousal abuses, that go far beyond the group's failure to educate its children.

 

So...

 

So why are we taking our cues about homeschooling laws from the aberrations of this group? Um, aren't there a few other issues here? Do we really want to base our assessment of ideal HOMESCHOOLING laws on what happens or doesn't happen inside this group? I can see talking about the FLDS's numerous violations of marriage laws, polygamy laws, spousal abuse laws, spousal rape laws, child labor laws, child marriage laws, child abuse laws, child neglect laws, accomplice rape laws, and even sodomy laws. Did you know that Warren Jeffs sodomized his own nephew, while his brother watched?

 

IMO, it's ludicrous to zero in on HOMESCHOOLING laws in response to the 20/20 report, in which the reporter intentionally highlighted the struggles of an 18 year old "Lost Boy" who could not read the word "dogs." He's been through a whole HELL of a lot more than that in his brief life, and if you think more restrictive homeschooling laws for all of Utah would have prevented his tragic story, really, people, you don't know the FLDS.

 

Simply passing homeschooling laws in the states of Utah and Arizona would not be enough to thwart the child labor and human rights abuses of the FLDS. If the boys were not being used as unpaid labor in one place -- a fact which is well-known, even by those contractors outside the FLDS (why don't THEY turn in these child-heavy work crews?) -- then the FLDS would simply ship them somewhere else, to one of the other home bases, or work them on the farms and fields. They have sites in Utah, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Nevada, California, South Dakota, Idaho, British Columbia, and Mexico. It's no problem to shuffle the little boys from place to place. When they get old enough to question and "cause trouble" -- or simply become competition for the older men wanting more young wives -- they get cast out. Hence, the many Lost Boys of the FLDS.

 

Utah needs to enforce the laws it already has.

[snowbeltmom]

Huh... Does that make a difference in how they're (supposed to be) educated? I don't know much about the laws in Utah. There must be a reason they do it that way.

 

 

Stricter homeschooling regulations would provide no protection for the kids in situations such as the one depicted on the 20/20 piece. As other posters have mentioned, this cult appears to be operating as a private school. The state of Utah has no oversight over private schools. Imposing more hoops and regulations for homeschoolers to jump through would be futile.

 

It was irresponsible reporting to portray these kids as “homeschooled†and suggest that homeschooling was the reason these kids could not read. The question that was never asked by this reporter was why the state of Utah is permitting young boys to work all day rather than attend school, clearly violating the child labor laws.

 

If the state of Utah had done its job and enforced the child labor laws currently on the books, maybe these boys would have had time in their days to learn how to read.

 

This tragic situation has absolutely nothing to do with homeschooling, too bad the media continues to link homeschooling to every wackadoodle every chance it gets.

[Farrar]

I hate regulation.

 

That's all I have to say about that. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah!

 

I don't hate educational neglect laws, but I see them as two different beasts. I don't think testing would particularly help - at what point do you say that a child who can't read well is neglected? What if there are learning disabilities? What if the parents are following a delayed academics philosophy or unschooling? What if they just pulled the child from school and the testing date suddenly comes up? These things are so individual and they take individual assessments when something is really wrong. I think the vast majority of cases of actual educational neglect are coupled with other types of neglect and are best handled by social services, not education departments.

[HS Mom in NC]

As I've said before, I don't buy into the whole "homeschoolers get to do whatever we want with no regulations at all because public schools suck" argument.

 

 

But you're proposing that after being diagnosed with a standardized test and government supervision that the government take over the education of children lagging behind will be an effective a solution to the problem. Government has a long track record of proving itself incompetent in solving poor education performance-particularly the poor education of children with deadbeat parents . In practical effect, your proposal is "policy as psychotherapy. " It makes you feel better that government comes in and tells people masquerading as homeschoolers to stop, but when the state takes over the education of neglected children, it's very unlikely the actual problem, which is kids not being educated adequately, will be solved by the state for all the reasons I mentioned. Public school teachers are telling us they can't do it if parents aren't on board. Are they lying? Are they making lame excuses to get out of trying? Why would they say so if it isn't true? If they can't, then who can?

 

We've seen this here in AZ. One family was abusing and neglecting their grandchild in another state. That state investigated. The grandparents complied just enough to get the state off their backs and then moved to AZ. No one in AZ knew this had been a problem. How could they know? What practical, real life, hands on solution is there to this particular problem? They weren't really homeschooling the kids, they weren't even registered as homeschoolers. They didn't send the kid to any school public or private. After the child was killed it was clear that the other young adult cousins in the house had been neglected when it came to an education and it was safe to assume the murdered child had been too. Sure, they claimed they had been homeschooled, but in reality they had not been school at all at home. So they weren't homeschoolers. They were noschoolers.

 

How would standardized testing and government oversight of all homeschoolers have solved that problem? These are criminals who violate all kinds of moral and legal laws and live in the under belly of society. They won't register their children in any school. Living under the radar is a way of life. As for the FLDS, they're notorious for forced marriages, sexual abuse, unlawful imprisonment, welfare fraud, etc. Standardized testing and government oversight isn't something they'll comply with. Their entire existence relies on living under the radar as much as possible. Law enforcement here has been banging their heads against the wall because they're so good at getting around the laws.

 

Homeschooling by nature eliminates people who don't want to educate their children themselves. Public school is a highly subsidized easily accessible option for all American parents who have no interest in educating their kids themselves. We don't have a problem with homeschoolers who don't want to give their kids at least a bare bones education. We have a problem with a few people pretending to be homeschoolers who actually don't want their children educated at all. It's very rare to find someone in this category and spending government resources on all homeschoolers isn't an effective policy because the people who do this will avoid government contact anyway as I've already explained. Ask your local school superintendent which funds they suggest be diverted from the ps system to create enough oversight for all the homeschoolers in your state. Salaries? Pensions? Maintenance? Special needs? Honors programs? Transportation? The reasons they don't want their children educated at all involve maintaining a system that controls, oppresses, and creates dependence in their victims. Older males with more status are trying to control all the females and force the younger males and males with less status out of competition for females. Public school supervision couldn't possibly deal with those problems effectively.

 

Remember something else about this particular group of children-they live in a closed society and are inbred when it comes to all of their direct ancestors on both sides for multiple generations. What's it been? A century now? The potential effect that it may be having on their cognitive abilities is serious. It's actually possible some of them might be getting a bare bones education but it isn't working because of genetic cognitive impairment. Imagine handing that problem off to local ps teachers.

[Mergath]

But you're proposing that after being diagnosed with a standardized test and government supervision that the government take over the education of children lagging behind will be an effective a solution to the problem.

 

 

Did you even read my posts? I said that the government should provide the parents with additional resources to help the child learn. Where exactly did I say that the government needs to "take over the education of children lagging behind"? If you're going to quote what you assume the opposite position to be, not what I actually said, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

[briansmama]

You are arguing for something that is nonexistent in this country then. The success of other countries is

not based on their standardized tests. It is their completely different systems. Finland, for example doesn't start school till age 7. Their teachers are given a lot more control/freedom without as much regulation and are highly educated. There is less time in the class room and more time on the playground. So I guess we can debate this when the US completely changes it's model. Until then I have no desire for their regulation.

ETA: Deleted part of my post that was not accurate and added a little.

 

 

Yes, this. To call for more regulation from the current government funded public school system as it currently operates is calling for standardized testing and standardized curriculum. We homeschool so our dc are not subjected to standardized curriculum and standardized testing.

 

Standardization does not equal education, as our failing public system proves, IMO.

 

Now, this may not be everyone's opinion here...and I respect that. But I'm getting the impression here that those arguing for more regulation from the standardized system as it currently operates think standardized education is acceptable and possibly even utilize standardized educational materials in their homeschool- that is fine of course for your own family, but please realize that many of us here (or even just me) do not agree that standardization equals learning so we (I) can't possibly support the notion that a standardized government-funded educational system should oversee/regulate me and my dc learning in any way.

[briansmama]

You are arguing for something that is nonexistent in this country then. The success of other countries is

not based on their standardized tests. It is their completely different systems. Finland, for example doesn't start school till age 7. Their teachers are given a lot more control/freedom without as much regulation and are highly educated. There is less time in the class room and more time on the playground. So I guess we can debate this when the US completely changes it's model. Until then I have no desire for their regulation.

ETA: Deleted part of my post that was not accurate and added a little.

 

 

Yes, this. To call for more regulation from the current government funded public school system as it currently operates is calling for standardized testing and standardized curriculum. We homeschool so our dc are not subjected to standardized curriculum and standardized testing.

 

Standardization does not equal education, as our failing public system proves, IMO.

 

Now, this may not be everyone's opinion here...and I respect that. But I'm getting the impression here that those arguing for more regulation from the standardized system as it currently operates think standardized education is acceptable and possibly even utilize standardized educational materials in their homeschool- that is fine of course for your own family, but please realize that many of us here (or even just me) do not agree that standardization equals learning so we (I) can't possibly support the notion that a standardized government-funded educational system should oversee/regulate me and my dc learning in any way.

[Mergath]

 

Now, this may not be everyone's opinion here...and I respect that. But I'm getting the impression here that those arguing for more regulation from the standardized system as it currently operates think standardized education is acceptable and possibly even utilize standardized educational materials in their homeschool- that is fine of course for your own family, but please realize that many of us here (or even just me) do not agree that standardization equals learning so we (I) can't possibly support the notion that a standardized government-funded educational system should oversee/regulate me and my dc learning in any way.

 

If by "standardized education" you mean "can read and add single-digit numbers by graduation" then yes, I whole-heartedly support standardized education.

 

Seeing so many people apoplectic with outrage at the idea of the government ensuring that all kids can read and write well enough to function really makes me concerned for the current generation of homeschooled kids. :blink:

[Mergath]

One other thing I want to throw out there: just because the public schools do something doesn't mean it necessarily caused the failure. I don't know how many people I've seen in this post say variations of things like, "Tests don't work, as the failing schools demonstrate." "Government funding produces poorly-educated kids, as our schools show." "Public schools use textbooks, so obviously they don't work."

 

There are many, many reasons our country's schools are failing our kids. That does not mean, however, that every single thing the public schools do can never work. Most schools use desks. Does that many sitting in a desk while you learn will automatically cause you to fail? Or writing on a blackboard? Having women (men, people with freckles, etc.) work as teachers?

 

Some of you are mixing up your causations and your correlations.

[snowbeltmom]

 

Seeing so many people apoplectic with outrage at the idea of the government ensuring that all kids can read and write well enough to function really makes me concerned for the current generation of homeschooled kids. :blink:

 

The government is unable to ensure that the kids it has taken responsibilty to educate are able to read and write well enough to function. Why would the homeschooling community want these "experts" to impose their regulations on our kids?

 

There is absolutley no proof that more government regulation and testing improve the educational outcomes of homeschoolers. As others have already mentioned, those that claim to be "homeschooling" but are actually "noschooling" will find a way to fly under the radar anyway, regardless of how many additional regulations the states impose on its homeschooling communities.

 

My kids attended a nationally-ranked, Blue-ribbon school for two years. My husband and I made the decision to homeschool because No Child Left Behind and the regulations that were imposed on the teachers made it impossible for my kids to receive an appropriate education. More tests and regulations do not result in better educated kids.

[mhaddon]

That family member also mentioned her concern about the hs'ed girls who are under-educated because they are being prepared to be "good wives and mothers," so they spend long hours at domestic chores and don't get a basic education. I, too, have seen this dark side of homeschooling. Again, similar to the FLDS.

 

I have seen this too and it hit me hard. It is very upsetting for me to see a family chose a path for any child and put them at such a disadvantage. If my daughters want to be a stay at home mom, then so be it. However, they will be prepared to soar through college if they want that as well.

 

Someone mentioned a teacher that we could consult. What I would like to see is an overall better public school to homeschool relationship. I wish we could work together to improve education, rather than bringing the other down. I love talking to the teacher friends that I do have to ask questions, get ideas, and listen to what they have trouble with. It would be nice to be able to go into the schools for help for say my dyslexic son. However, in some homeschooling circles the mentioning of public schools will be greeted with scorn and contempt. Public schooled children are heathens and inferrior, their parents must hate them, etc. I have heard it all! If we could work together to improve education for every child we would be able to see those that are slipping through the cracks for whatever reason.

[mhaddon]

I'm not saying every homeschool parent feels that way :) I have encountered that way of thinking, to the point where someone debating putting a child in was talked down upon. I wonder if more rural areas are better at accepting homeschool families? I have also never felt turned away from a public school. I went to school for education myself and maybe that is because I know how to approach them. I have gone in many times to volunteer, etc. I know teachers love to have tutors and someone to just help at times and I've always loved doing that. I love the joy of seeing children learn, even other children. My children have gone into a school to have lunch, we have attended book fairs, and fall festivals. The best part is walking into the school with four young children and getting many compliments from the teachers about how well behaved all of my children are.