S/O: What constitutes middle class?

[DawnM]

To me, this isn't about a specific number at all. Cost of living areas, variations in all sorts of things will be determining factors.

 

To me, it means you are able to afford to purchase a house at some point (even a small house or condo), feed your family, get health care of some sort, pay your bills, and have a little leftover for luxury things like gifts, a vacation (which could be as simple as camping in a $10/night park), and save some savings for retirement without a huge strain.

 

If you cannot do the above with some level of comfort, you would not be considered middle class in MY definition.

 

The PROBLEM (for me) is that many who say they can't live like the above comfortably, but in all truth, have houses they can't afford, cars they can't afford, $200 cell phone and $150 TV bills that hinder them from living within their means. That is what makes it hard to define IMO.

 

I am NOT referring to anyone here so please don't jump on me. These are just my thoughts on what I consider middle class.

 

I realize it is pretty complicated so I would love to hear your thoughts on what constitutes middle class.

[Crimson Wife]

A very large number of "middle class" families could not afford the houses in which they live if they had to purchase them at today's market prices (even after the decline from the peak). My cousin's wife has parents who are retired Catholic schoolteachers and live in a $1.5M home (at the peak of the market it was worth nearly $2M). It was affordable on a middle-class salary back when they bought it 3 decades ago but today only the wealthy can afford to buy in the same neighborhood. :(

[Jackie in NE]

To me, this isn't about a specific number at all. Cost of living areas, variations in all sorts of things will be determining factors.

 

To me, it means you are able to afford to purchase a house at some point (even a small house or condo), feed your family, get health care of some sort, pay your bills, and have a little leftover for luxury things like gifts, a vacation (which could be as simple as camping in a $10/night park), and save some savings for retirement without a huge strain.

 

If you cannot do the above with some level of comfort, you would not be considered middle class in MY definition.

 

The PROBLEM (for me) is that many who say they can't live like the above comfortably, but in all truth, have houses they can't afford, cars they can't afford, $200 cell phone and $150 TV bills that hinder them from living within their means. That is what makes it hard to define IMO.

 

I am NOT referring to anyone here so please don't jump on me. These are just my thoughts on what I consider middle class.

 

I realize it is pretty complicated so I would love to hear your thoughts on what constitutes middle class.

I like your definition, Dawn. I would amend it a little bit to say that a retirement plan can look dramatically different from family to family. For some it might be a savings account, others an investment in stocks, and still others, a business which could be sold. But yes, I think of middle class in the same way that you described it.

[SKL]

Before we define middle class, what are the other classes that a person would belong to if not middle class?

 

Do we still have "working class," because most middle-class people I know work pretty hard. But if we do have "working class," how do you define that? Is that for people who live like middle-class people but are deep in debt / have no nest egg?

 

I'm also interested in where people see as the upper limit of "middle class," because I get the impression that some people see middle class as "not quite arrived yet," with financial security / debt-free status meaning you're somewhere above middle class.

 

Personally I think middle class is the default class in this country at this point in history. Working class is obsolete, as you can have a middle-class lifestyle regardless of what kind of uniform you wear to work or whether you punch a clock. Poor is for people who don't live a comfortable life AND cannot afford to anytime in the foreseeable future. Rich is for people whose wealth goes significantly beyond what's needed to maintain his own family comfortably, provide for the future (including education and retirement), AND have financial security / debt-free status.

[Annie G]

http://www.sfgate.com/business/investopedia/article/Which-Income-Class-Are-You-3899258.php

 

This article has an interesting breakdown, but the income ranges don't seem to fully account for cost of living differences that exist in different parts of the US.

[Crimson Wife]

That linked article is wrong about $250k being the top 1%. The top 1% actually starts at $344k according to the IRS. You can calculate what percentile your family's income ranks here.

[Annie G]

That linked article is wrong about $250k being the top 1%. The top 1% actually starts at $344k according to the IRS. You can calculate what percentile your family's income ranks here.

 

I thought that seemed too low!

[Arcadia]

To me, it means you are able to afford to purchase a house at some point (even a small house or condo), feed your family, get health care of some sort, pay your bills, and have a little leftover for luxury things like gifts, a vacation (which could be as simple as camping in a $10/night park), and save some savings for retirement without a huge strain.

 

If you cannot do the above with some level of comfort, you would not be considered middle class in MY definition.

 

My grandparent (both maternal and paternal) and uncles has started and ran family businesses. I grew up thinking I am more of in a bourgeois class than middle class.

 

However by your definition, my family would comfortably qualify as middle class. We own out first home (condo) fully paid and our only debt is our second home (condo) mortgage. We are turning 40 soon.

 

ETA: From the sfgate article, my side of the family would be considered old wealth while hubby and his siblings are the first generation of middle class.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Arcadia

[Catwoman]

I'm not particularly comfortable with "class definitions," as I find them to be exclusionary, and they tend to make people look down their noses at whomever they consider to be of a lesser category, however they choose to determine the definition of lower, middle, and upper classes. I guess it all depends on whether you're talking about lifestyle, actual $$$ income, level of debt, the amount of savings a person may have, or other factors like family background, level of education, or person's profession.

 

Whatever the case, I just checked out the links in this thread, and was quite surprised that one article defined "upper class" as being an income level of $150,000+ per year. That seems ridiculously low to me. I always thought that was somewhere in the middle class range.

[BakersDozen]

To me, it means you are able to afford to purchase a house at some point (even a small house or condo), feed your family, get health care of some sort, pay your bills, and have a little leftover for luxury things like gifts, a vacation (which could be as simple as camping in a $10/night park), and save some savings for retirement without a huge strain.

 

This covers what I feel middle class is very well.

 

one article defined "upper class" as being an income level of $150,000+ per year. That seems ridiculously low to me. I always thought that was somewhere in the middle class range.

Whew, if we made that much money, we'd be upper class for sure! Obviously where we live would allow for that whereas in other areas of the country 150K would be considered middle class. But 150K...I cannot imagine making that much money every year!

[GWOB]

http://www.sfgate.com/business/investopedia/article/Which-Income-Class-Are-You-3899258.php

 

This article has an interesting breakdown, but the income ranges don't seem to fully account for cost of living differences that exist in different parts of the US.

 

That linked article is wrong about $250k being the top 1%. The top 1% actually starts at $344k according to the IRS. You can calculate what percentile your family's income ranks here.

 

Both of these sites seem a bit inaccurate to me. Both list us as "upper class".:lol::smilielol5: Bless their hearts! Numbers on a paper do not equal middle class. Now, both dh and I grew up not only poor, but straight-up po'. We consider ourselves solidly middle class. We carry little debt (mortgage, small car payment, small student loans) and live well within our means. We aren't living the high life here, even though we live in a lower cost-of-living area. Perhaps it's a mentality thing.

 

How do I define middle class? I think of skilled labor. Most middle class ,e,hers have some sort of higher education. The middle class has some small debt, but nothing unmanageable. Their bills are paid, their food is acceptable, and they have decent healthcare. They have the ability to save for either retirement or college for their kids, often both. The middle class values education. They value hard work and dedication. Honestly, I think middle class is mostly a mentality, of course taking into account economics.

 

If we really want to get into numbers, I will try to define middle class in my specific area. Decent housing in my area ranges from $100,000 to $250,000. Gas is $3.59/gallon. Groceries in my tiny town are a little pricey, but a trip 25 miles north greatly reduces the cost. We have some of the lowest utility rates in the nation (thank you publicly-owned utilities!). Property tax rates range from $4,300/year for a $259,000 house in town to $3,300/year for a $200,000 house in the country with 8 acres of land. In my definition, in order to be middle class, you would probably have to make between $50,000 and $175,000 a year AND be realistic about what you can reasonably spend. I am far from an expert;).

[Renee in NC]

WOOHOO! We're headed to the upper middle class!

 

BUT, the tax income site doesn't take into account family size. At our current income level we still will not pay any federal income taxes, even though it puts us solidly in the middle class. We're probably more lower middle class still due to the number of people.

 

ETA: wendilouwho - It's funny what you define as middle class. Based on your numbers, our area has a higher cost of living, and that income range is really high.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Renee in FL

[DawnM]

I found it interesting that the article was posted in San Francisco, one of the highest costs of living in the country.

[DawnM]

Well, you are right about that. When we left Los Angeles we realized we either needed to stay in our house forever, or move out of CA.

 

Part of that was because of taxes. Taxes there are based on your PURCHASE PRICE. So, our taxes were still quite manageable. However, if we were to sell and buy a different house, our taxes would have gotten too high.

 

At that time we opted to sell, take the profits, and move.

 

Dawn

 

A very large number of "middle class" families could not afford the houses in which they live if they had to purchase them at today's market prices (even after the decline from the peak). My cousin's wife has parents who are retired Catholic schoolteachers and live in a $1.5M home (at the peak of the market it was worth nearly $2M). It was affordable on a middle-class salary back when they bought it 3 decades ago but today only the wealthy can afford to buy in the same neighborhood. :(

[Crimson Wife]

Well, you are right about that. When we left Los Angeles we realized we either needed to stay in our house forever, or move out of CA.

 

Part of that was because of taxes. Taxes there are based on your PURCHASE PRICE. So, our taxes were still quite manageable. However, if we were to sell and buy a different house, our taxes would have gotten too high.

 

At that time we opted to sell, take the profits, and move.

 

Dawn

 

Most of our neighbors pay 1/3 the property tax that we do. :glare:

 

The whole thing makes for a rather odd dynamic in local politics because the younger residents are yuppies while most of the older ones are more regular middle class. In the town where we lived from 2006-2009, there was a big fight over bringing a specialized STEM charter high school to the town. The younger residents (many of whom worked in tech-related jobs) were the biggest proponents while the older residents seemed to get hung up on the fact that the school wouldn't have facilities for varsity athletics :rolleyes:

[athena1277]

That linked article is wrong about $250k being the top 1%. The top 1% actually starts at $344k according to the IRS. You can calculate what percentile your family's income ranks here.

 

I'm going to disagree with this link. Totally does not take into account where you live. According to them, we are in the top 25%. However we live near Washington DC where the cost of living is extremely high. Dh's salary is actually almost at the median salary for our area. We pay a ton to rent a 1450 sq ft townhouse and can't afford to replace my car that died last year. I consider us middle class, but there is no way we are in the top 25%. Our needs are met easily enough, but there are a lot of wants that we cannot afford.

[DawnM]

I played with that a bit. $67,000 and above puts you in the top 25% bracket. That 25% bracket becomes top 10% around 112K. However, IMO, there is a huge difference between 67K and 112K.

 

That linked article is wrong about $250k being the top 1%. The top 1% actually starts at $344k according to the IRS. You can calculate what percentile your family's income ranks here.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm going to disagree with this link. Totally does not take into account where you live. According to them, we are in the top 25%. However we live near Washington DC where the cost of living is extremely high. Dh's salary is actually almost at the median salary for our area. We pay a ton to rent a 1450 sq ft townhouse and can't afford to replace my car that died last year. I consider us middle class, but there is no way we are in the top 25%. Our needs are met easily enough, but there are a lot of wants that we cannot afford.

 

You cannot disagree that you are in the top 25% of wage earners. You might disagree with the perception that brings, based on COL and such, but the fact of the matter remains. This link has more specific breakdowns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

[elegantlion]

Whatever the case, I just checked out the links in this thread, and was quite surprised that one article defined "upper class" as being an income level of $150,000+ per year. That seems ridiculously low to me. I always thought that was somewhere in the middle class range.

 

Well I'd love to have 150k a year, but I don't consider that upper class. In our area it would put you solidly in upper middle class. In other parts of the state you would be simply middle class, maybe struggling, dependent upon housing.

 

I agree with the OP's description, although there will be variation with that comfort level.

 

One thing I've seen is those without higher education having a harder time keeping middle class. Dh has some college but no degree and we did okay for years because he worked hard, ran his own business, etc. If business was slow he could easily get a job working for someone else or a number of jobs in his area of expertise, sales and construction. However, it seems now (in my limited experience) if you don't have a degree and lose your "in" either with a job or business, it's harder now to switch gears.

[butterflymommy]

Middle class expectations vary drastically by area. I grew up in a rural area and what is considered middle class there is by no stretch of the imagination considered middle class where I live now (urban/ metro).

 

A lot of services are "expected" in the city VS what I experienced growing up. Lawn service, takeout multiple times a week (I know some families that get some form of takeout almost every day), every aspect of home maintenance done by a hired professional, dog grooming, tutoring, personal trainers, manicures etc.... where I grew up these things were unheard of, even though my neighborhood was definitely middle class. Here they seem to be a given. I can't tell you how many people have asked me, incredulous, why I'm mowing the lawn myself.

 

So it's difficult to answer this question in any meaningful way. I would add, though, that living in a safe neighborhood is a big signature of being middle class. You can be a homeowner in a bombed out ghetto area but you probably aren't middle class.

 

I'm often puzzled by the notion of blue collar somehow being lower class. Utility workers in my area can make 80k, more if you consider benefits. Uniformed public service earn upwards to 100k.

[Mrs Mungo]

Wages mean nothing without considering the rest of the compensation package and the local variations in taxation.

 

Wages may not be a total picture as far as COL for purposes of "class," but it gives one a decent idea of where one falls compared to the rest of the nation. I just moved from Hawaii, the cost of living is *crazy* high there. I know what a difference COL makes. But, I think those people surviving on very little (including Hawaii, DC or other high COL areas) are sort of invisible to those in the upper quintiles. That is what these tables are intended to get across.

[DawnM]

:iagree: Many without education are making it, but it is harder.

 

One thing I've seen is those without higher education having a harder time keeping middle class. Dh has some college but no degree and we did okay for years because he worked hard, ran his own business, etc. If business was slow he could easily get a job working for someone else or a number of jobs in his area of expertise, sales and construction. However, it seems now (in my limited experience) if you don't have a degree and lose your "in" either with a job or business, it's harder now to switch gears.

[JenC3]

To me, this isn't about a specific number at all. Cost of living areas, variations in all sorts of things will be determining factors.

 

To me, it means you are able to afford to purchase a house at some point (even a small house or condo), feed your family, get health care of some sort, pay your bills, and have a little leftover for luxury things like gifts, a vacation (which could be as simple as camping in a $10/night park), and save some savings for retirement without a huge strain.

 

If you cannot do the above with some level of comfort, you would not be considered middle class in MY definition.

 

The PROBLEM (for me) is that many who say they can't live like the above comfortably, but in all truth, have houses they can't afford, cars they can't afford, $200 cell phone and $150 TV bills that hinder them from living within their means. That is what makes it hard to define IMO.

 

I am NOT referring to anyone here so please don't jump on me. These are just my thoughts on what I consider middle class.

 

I realize it is pretty complicated so I would love to hear your thoughts on what constitutes middle class.

 

Which means they must do this without credit.

[DawnM]

Why would you say that?

 

People use CC all the time and pay them off at the end of each month. That is what we do.

 

I certainly don't think being middle class means you pay cash for a house. Very few people an do that.

 

Which means they must do this without credit.

[Caroline]

The upper quintiles are the slumlords. They know exactly what is going on, and how much they can extract. I know, I've served on town committees with them. It's one of the reasons that expanding infrastructure costs get put on to homeowners instead of the businesses that want to move in when the expansion makes that move possible. They profit, the poorer homeowners, who are the ones in towns, not mansions in the country, pay the bonds for the next tweny years, and the poor shop local for higher prices.

 

The upper quintile is the top 20%. That is the definition of quintile.The upper quintiles are the top 40%. You are saying the top 40% are all slumlords?

[QueenCat]

You cannot disagree that you are in the top 25% of wage earners. You might disagree with the perception that brings, based on COL and such, but the fact of the matter remains. This link has more specific breakdowns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

 

At this link, if you go almost to the bottom, it does give an analysis that included cost of living.

[QueenCat]

Why would you say that?

 

People use CC all the time and pay them off at the end of each month. That is what we do.

 

I certainly don't think being middle class means you pay cash for a house. Very few people an do that.

 

:iagree:We pay everything we possibly can with our cc and then pay it off monthly. The rewards are excellent for doing so. As to home purchases, I know few who pay cash, not even in the upper class. For the most part, that means a larger loan, not a house purchased with cash, but possibly a larger % down payment). Cars are another area where most seem to do loans. For me, it's one of those things I'm fine with, and don't consider to be "bad" debt. We'll probably always have a car loan... but we do try to only have one at a time.

[Jane in NC]

The upper quintile is the top 20%. That is the definition of quintile.The upper quintiles are the top 40%. You are saying the top 40% are all slumlords?

 

Yeah, that took me aback too, Caroline.

 

Broken record Jane often wonders if classes should be defined by net worth. Perhaps not accurate in a consumer based economy, but one that reflects stability more than income.

[Jane in NC]

Cars are another area where most seem to do loans. For me, it's one of those things I'm fine with, and don't consider to be "bad" debt. We'll probably always have a car loan... but we do try to only have one at a time.

 

People with good credit have often received 0 - 2% car loans. When money markets were paying more than the paltry amount they are paying now, I could not see paying cash for a vehicle if the money was making interest.

 

Of course, there are arguments against buying new cars which is usually where the low interest incentives apply...

 

A bit off topic, I know. Sorry about that.

 

Jane

[Runningmom80]

Idk, but we wouldn't fit your definition of middle class, and I used the online calculator that was posted to figure out we are in the top 25% of earners. I would say that's middle class....

 

 

ETA: had to fix the percentage.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Runningmom80

[QueenCat]

People with good credit have often received 0 - 2% car loans. When money markets were paying more than the paltry amount they are paying now, I could not see paying cash for a vehicle if the money was making interest.

 

Of course, there are arguments against buying new cars which is usually where the low interest incentives apply...

 

A bit off topic, I know. Sorry about that.

 

Jane

 

I know. We're pay 0.9% on our current car loan. We usually buy new cars but we keep them around 8-10 years.

[Lovedtodeath]

By that definition we are not middle class, but we still receive no help for healthcare from the government (state, county, federal, nada). We would if we had one more child. We are my definition of the middle class. Those who receive government help have more than us and assume that we have more to spare.

To me, this isn't about a specific number at all. Cost of living areas, variations in all sorts of things will be determining factors.

 

To me, it means you are able to afford to purchase a house at some point (even a small house or condo), feed your family, get health care of some sort, pay your bills, and have a little leftover for luxury things like gifts, a vacation (which could be as simple as camping in a $10/night park), and save some savings for retirement without a huge strain.

 

If you cannot do the above with some level of comfort, you would not be considered middle class in MY definition.

 

The PROBLEM (for me) is that many who say they can't live like the above comfortably, but in all truth, have houses they can't afford, cars they can't afford, $200 cell phone and $150 TV bills that hinder them from living within their means. That is what makes it hard to define IMO.

 

I am NOT referring to anyone here so please don't jump on me. These are just my thoughts on what I consider middle class.

 

I realize it is pretty complicated so I would love to hear your thoughts on what constitutes middle class.

[DawnM]

Well, again, this is just my ramblings for the morning....I figure I am not completely accurate.

 

However, if you make the top 20% and live in the mid-West (unless it is Chicago) I am not sure how you aren't able to do the min. of what my definition is.

 

Is there one particular area you can't fit for some reason? I certainly don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of health care costs and such, so that may trip some people.

 

You certainly don't need to answer, I am not trying to pry, just trying to figure out what it is you can't do on a decent income.

 

Dawn

 

Idk, but we wouldn't fit your definition of middle class, and I used the online calculator that was posted to figure out we are in the top 20% of earners. I would say that's middle class....

[Jane in NC]

By that definition we are not middle class, but we still receive no help for healthcare from the government (state, county, federal, nada). We would if we had one more child. We are my definition of the middle class. Those who receive government help have more than us and assume that we have more to spare.

 

This is where it gets a little sketchy.

 

Government help takes the form of medical or food assistance, but also the Earned Income Credit. A family earning $40K with two kids receives the EIC. But that is just below the median income, hence just below the "middle". Is that middle class?

 

Jane (who thinks she has the correct figures)

[SKL]

Reading this thread, it seems to me that discussions on class don't bring out the best in a community. Does it have any purpose other than finger-pointing and one-down-man-ship?

[Crimson Wife]

A lot of services are "expected" in the city VS what I experienced growing up. Lawn service, takeout multiple times a week (I know some families that get some form of takeout almost every day), every aspect of home maintenance done by a hired professional, dog grooming, tutoring, personal trainers, manicures etc.... where I grew up these things were unheard of, even though my neighborhood was definitely middle class. Here they seem to be a given. I can't tell you how many people have asked me, incredulous, why I'm mowing the lawn myself.

 

Many of these services are relatively inexpensive today if someone lives in a place where there are a lot of immigrants. Not the ones requiring a higher skill set obviously like tutoring, but the mani/pedis, lawn service, housecleaning, etc. are.

 

If somebody had told me growing up that it would be cheaper to have monthly lawn service than basic cable, I would've laughed. But that's the reality where I live.

 

ETA: We don't do these things, but I have seen advertisements for them.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Crimson Wife

[DawnM]

Yeah, that stinks.

 

My friend got government assistance. She was able to get her kids healthcare and food and it covered most of her housing.

 

The minute she got her first paycheck from her minimum wage job, it all disappeared. She did better on assistance.

 

It really is a messed up system.

 

By that definition we are not middle class, but we still receive no help for healthcare from the government (state, county, federal, nada). We would if we had one more child. We are my definition of the middle class. Those who receive government help have more than us and assume that we have more to spare.

[Jane in NC]

Reading this thread, it seems to me that discussions on class don't bring out the best in a community. Does it have any purpose other than finger-pointing and one-down-man-ship?

 

I am sorry you feel that way. I thought it was sort of interesting to see how individual poster's geography and personal perception influenced their view. Sorry to be dense. No offense meant on my part.

[DawnM]

Yes, this.

 

In LA we had our house painted for half of what it costs here. Our roof replacement was less. We didn't have a gardener, but he would have been less than here too if we had had one.

 

Dawn

 

Many of these services are relatively inexpensive today if someone lives in a place where there are a lot of immigrants. Not the ones requiring a higher skill set obviously like tutoring, but the mani/pedis, lawn service, housecleaning, etc. are.

 

If somebody had told me growing up that it would be cheaper to have monthly lawn service than basic cable, I would've laughed. But that's the reality where I live.

[SKL]

I am sorry you feel that way. I thought it was sort of interesting to see how individual poster's geography and personal perception influenced their view. Sorry to be dense. No offense meant on my part.

 

I agree that the geographical differences are interesting.

 

It just bugs me that every time the "class" topic comes up, it generates a line of "this is why __ group is evil." And also, "I'm doing OK, but don't you dare call me upper class!"

 

Personally I don't think a person's bank account indicates what kind of human s/he is, but the focus on class seems to lead to those kinds of unfortunate assumptions.

[Lovedtodeath]

This is where it gets a little sketchy.

 

Government help takes the form of medical or food assistance, but also the Earned Income Credit. A family earning $40K with two kids receives the EIC. But that is just below the median income, hence just below the "middle". Is that middle class?

 

Jane (who thinks she has the correct figures)

I didn't want to post our income or percentage on that poll, but I guess we aren't really middle class then. I always thought we were. wow. Very eye-opening.

 

Well, this thread was very helpful for me. I need to see what more I can do to help out my hardworking hubby.

[Runningmom80]

Well, again, this is just my ramblings for the morning....I figure I am not completely accurate.

 

However, if you make the top 20% and live in the mid-West (unless it is Chicago) I am not sure how you aren't able to do the min. of what my definition is.

 

Is there one particular area you can't fit for some reason? I certainly don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of health care costs and such, so that may trip some people.

 

You certainly don't need to answer, I am not trying to pry, just trying to figure out what it is you can't do on a decent income.

 

Dawn

 

Well, we have a child with medical issues, and two years ago had twins, both of which threw us for a loop financially. Really the only thing you mentioned that we don't have is a house, we rent a house, and it's taking us a long time to save a down payment.

 

I just went back and read your list, vacation is the other one, but I guess we could go on vacation, if we stopped saving a down payment...

 

 

Eta: we are in top 25, not 20, but I still would consider that middle class.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Runningmom80

[QueenCat]

This is where it gets a little sketchy.

 

Government help takes the form of medical or food assistance, but also the Earned Income Credit. A family earning $40K with two kids receives the EIC. But that is just below the median income, hence just below the "middle". Is that middle class?

 

Jane (who thinks she has the correct figures)

 

EIC is something people often forget to factor in.... On another note, I LOVE your doughnut!

[Mrs Mungo]

No, I don't have access to that kind of data. I am disagreeing with Mrs. Mungo, in that I beleive that many of the people in this quintile do know of the plight of the poorest, since they are the slumlords. I do know who owns the rentals and trailer courts in my area as it is a matter of public record. Apologies for not spelling out my argument clearly as I multitask.

 

I think knowing that you are renting slums out to people is VERY different from knowing what it is like living that way from day to day. There was a whole movie on that topic: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103007/.

 

For that matter, do the owners even deal directly with those people? Even when we've rented nice homes, we dealt with a property management company, rarely the owners. And you're STILL talking people who are living in homes. Many of the families we dealt with at the food bank lived in hotel rooms here and there, moving around often.

 

I think my point about their plight being invisible to the upper quintiles stands.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[JenC3]

Why would you say that?

 

People use CC all the time and pay them off at the end of each month. That is what we do.

 

I certainly don't think being middle class means you pay cash for a house. Very few people an do that.

 

Ok all except say hiuse and a car payment. If you are charging items monthly and not paying off your balance, there's a deficit in your income.

[Elinor Everywhere]

I agree that the geographical differences are interesting.

 

It just bugs me that every time the "class" topic comes up, it generates a line of "this is why __ group is evil." And also, "I'm doing OK, but don't you dare call me upper class!"

 

Personally I don't think a person's bank account indicates what kind of human s/he is, but the focus on class seems to lead to those kinds of unfortunate assumptions.

 

I can see your point, even though I don't think the OP started the thread for that reason.

 

I have always avoided "income" threads for the very reason in one of the above posts: I've learned that I am an evil slumlord due to our income level alone.

 

:001_huh:

[goldberry]

Reading this thread, it seems to me that discussions on class don't bring out the best in a community. Does it have any purpose other than finger-pointing and one-down-man-ship?

 

It's an interesting topic, considering that there is much discussion everywhere thesedays about the "decline of the middle class". It's interesting to see what the perception of that is versus the reality.

 

FWIW, I agree with the OP that "middle class" in most people's minds refers to what you are able to do rather than what your actual income is in percentage to the rest of the country. Obviously the "decline of the middle class" doesn't have to do with actual income percentage, since there will always be a "middle". The question is, can that "middle" do the same things that it used to do. It's pretty obvious that it can't. Hence the perception of decline.

[Jane in NC]

On another note, I LOVE your doughnut!

 

It is part of my campaign of Mathematics and Doughnuts for all!!!

[KungFuPanda]

I skipped to the end, but as my response is not serious (and totally ripped off a comedian) I feel this is appropriate.

 

If your name is on the building, you're rich. If your name is on your desk, you're middle class. If your name is on your shirt, you're poor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Yes, I KNOW it's not true, so rebuttals from successful mechanics and such will fall on deaf ears.)

[KungFuPanda]

It is part of my campaign of Mathematics and Doughnuts for all!!!

 

Do you study topology? DH has always insisted that a coffee mug and a doughnut are the same thing in that field and I think of that when I see your posts.