Men teaching children's classes alone

[Maus]

:confused:

 

What's wrong with an all-male nursery? (These kids are 18 months to 3 years.)

 

The denomination in question used to (don't know the current rules) have a rule against having one man and one woman teach together unless they were married. So, if you are trying to staff your nursery, you either need married couples, or you need two (or more) people of the same sex.

Yes. That is still the policy.

 

Traditionally, the women get called to serve with the kids, and personally I think it is fantastic to spread that around to the men.

 

Now, I always found that rule a little ridiculous since it's hard to think of a place less encouraging of romance than a room full of toddlers who just sat through 70 minutes of church and have two hours more to go, with no nap, but there it is.

So very, very true! :D

 

By the way, in every ward I've been in, if the nursery is being staffed by all men on a given Sunday, they aren't just random guys from the congregation. They are almost always the dads of two of the kids in the room, though in one case, occasionally the nursery leader's husband was one of them (their kids were grown).

 

Additionally, some kids do far better if one of the leaders is a male. Especially true of the little boys. We were nursery workers for a year or so. My DH's health isn't consistent (he's diabetic). On the weeks he was sick and left the other three of us (all women) to handle nursery, we had two or three kids who caused absolute chaos. The same three didn't act up when he was there.

 

It is sad, but true, but being a nursery worker is not seen as important by most members of the congregation. It is really, really common for workers to just not show up, without calling the leader to say they'll need a sub. I've often taken my little one to nursery and ended up staying because the main leader is the only one there for 16 kids, because the other workers didn't show up and didn't call, and she can't even leave the room to recruit subs, because she's alone with the kids.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[Coffeetime]

I am stunned that in this day and age they would have an all male nursery!? I don't think you are being ridiculous, I'm honestly just completely flabbergasted that that many people thought it was ok. I've never even heard of it. .

 

:confused::001_huh:

 

I don't understand (or support) this perspective at all. I think it patronizes men, and artifically elevates women to the role of "appropriate caregiver and teacher".

 

I believe in 2 non related adults present but the exclusion of men? Why? In real, concrete, provable terms, why? I truly believe that perpective to be not just quirky and alarmist but *damaging*.

 

:iagree: completely with Joanne.

[Parrothead]

:iagree: completely with Joanne.

Me, too!

[mommaduck]

Most kids are molested by people they know... people in their families.... like dads, step dads and grandpas.

There are female child molesters as well. Women also can abuse children in their charge in various other ways. I experienced abused at the hands of several female teachers growing up.

[justLisa]

I know more men I'd trust my kids with than women!

 

I mean as far as outside our family.

[DarlaS]

I say this as nicely as possible. If you don't want certain people caring for your children then you should not leave them anywhere. Your making those other men look like they can't be trusted and people are having to worry about finding a sub at last minute that will suit your needs.

 

I don't know why you have this issue but it is your issue, not the churchs issue. Your also teaching your children that in general a man cannot be trusted which I find sad especially in church. If you are that distrustful then maybe seek counseling?

 

Not too add fuel to the fire but I have met quite a few women even in a church setting that I wouldn't want to care for my children. If this is a sexual nature surrounding your kids with only women is not going to be a safety net for you either. There are many sexual abusers who are women.

 

Not so if the church is violating its own policy.

 

Small children are often naturally fearful of strange men. This need not be "taught". It should be respected since I would certainly be wary of teaching a little girl that strange men are okay--no matter how PC it may be. I also do not give equal weight of concern to that infinitesimally tiny percentage of women abusers.

 

That said, the policy should extend to women if for no other reason than protecting the teacher from an innocent misunderstanding resulting in a false accusation or from anyone who may have a personal vendetta.

[mommaduck]

Not so if the church is violating its own policy.

 

Small children are often naturally fearful of strange men. This need not be "taught". It should be respected since I would certainly be wary of teaching a little girl that strange men are okay--no matter how PC it may be. I also do not give equal weight of concern to that infinitesimally tiny percentage of women abusers.

 

That said, the policy should extend to women if for no other reason than protecting the teacher from an innocent misunderstanding resulting in a false accusation or from anyone who may have a personal vendetta.

There are more than most people think.

[clarkacademy]

I find it odd that in a church where men are supposedly the leaders that people would feel odd to leave their children with them. :confused: I might be way off but isn't that kinda hypocritical? I don't understand it at all. In most churches the only leadership a woman can do is the kid stuff because men are the leaders.

[Little Nyssa]

OP, I would be uncomfortable with having my littles cared for by men, too, and you have every right to expect that church policy would be followed. Good thing the Bp has backed you up.

 

My take on her email is that the Bp scolded her and she is trying to save face by making a general kind of apology. My guess is that she will toe the line in future. I think that is the subtext you are noticing.

 

If it were me, I would prefer to go to a church which is smaller, so I could have more of a handle on things, but if I understand right, you need to go to the church closest to where you live, right? So that wouldn't be an option.

 

If there is trouble in the future I would address it as "the church has this policy and it needs to be followed" rather than "I have this special request and I want it to be honored."

:grouphug:

[Melinda in VT]

OP, I would be uncomfortable with having my littles cared for by men, too, and you have every right to expect that church policy would be followed. Good thing the Bp has backed you up.

 

My take on her email is that the Bp scolded her and she is trying to save face by making a general kind of apology. My guess is that she will toe the line in future. I think that is the subtext you are noticing.

 

If it were me, I would prefer to go to a church which is smaller, so I could have more of a handle on things, but if I understand right, you need to go to the church closest to where you live, right? So that wouldn't be an option.

 

If there is trouble in the future I would address it as "the church has this policy and it needs to be followed" rather than "I have this special request and I want it to be honored."

:grouphug:

 

But she does have a special request. The church policy is two adults in each class. She wants them to guarantee no men in her children's classes.

[jessicalb]

We would stop going anywhere my wishes for my child are accepted and then disregarded out of my sight. I don't care if you demanded her teachers jump on one foot and sing the national anthem. If they said they would follow your instructions and then disregarded them, they have proven a lack of honesty, a lack of follow through, and a lack respect for your parenting. They could have said they don't have the resources to ensure your child is never taught by a man, they could have moved her to another class, they could have handled this any number of ways. By assuring you they would follow your wishes and then going directly against your wishes on multiple occasions, they have shown they are not capable of being good caretakers for your child.

[Acorn]

This.

 

My husband grew up with 3 sisters and his mom is the secretary at their church. He was ALWAYS at the church, in the youth programs, etc. and he helped care for his youngest sister who is 5 years younger than he is. He was ALWAYS helping with kids.

 

He is VERY good with children and babies. He helps me in the nursery ALL the time. And a few weeks ago, I was asked to cook pancakes for the kids pancake breakfast so he sat in the nursery for me, with another woman.

 

I would be VERY insulted if you, or anyone else, treated my husband like a pedophile just because he's a man. :glare: You would definitely get the stink eye from me and I wouldn't have much patience for you continuously insulting him and making him look like a monster who can't be trusted with children. :glare: If I were in charge of the children's programs, or perhaps, even if I wasn't, I would tell you that you're children would not be welcome in our programs, to find something else to do with them.

 

Sorry, but I think you are being VERY irrational and judgmental. This is just like a man saying that they don't want their sons in a shop class taught by a woman, or having a football coach that is a woman.... actually, it's a hundred times worse, because you are basically accusing them of being pedophiles for no other reason than being male!!

 

:iagree:

 

I do think that you should express concern that there always be 2 adults, but I can't see how gender would matter.

[DarlaS]

There are more than most people think.

 

I am well aware of that. They are in no way equal in numbers to male abusers.

 

I'm talking about incidents per hours of contact here. Just to be fair since women are often the primary caregivers and depending on your definition of abuse, the numbers could easily make it look like women are actually more abusive. There are other factors like the number of children in care etc. ( http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-index/site-index-frame.html#soulhttp://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/statistics.html )

 

I *did* also say that the policy should apply to women.

 

Also, if they agreed to her request they should follow through. Don't we expect people to do as they promise? If her request was unreasonable, they should have said so right then and there instead of being sort of passive-aggressive about it when it was no longer convenient. You can just about bet that if her husband had made such a request, it would be taken seriously.

[DarlaS]

But she does have a special request. The church policy is two adults in each class. She wants them to guarantee no men in her children's classes.

 

But they agreed to just that in advance.

 

We would stop going anywhere my wishes for my child are accepted and then disregarded out of my sight. I don't care if you demanded her teachers jump on one foot and sing the national anthem. If they said they would follow your instructions and then disregarded them, they have proven a lack of honesty, a lack of follow through, and a lack respect for your parenting. They could have said they don't have the resources to ensure your child is never taught by a man, they could have moved her to another class, they could have handled this any number of ways. By assuring you they would follow your wishes and then going directly against your wishes on multiple occasions, they have shown they are not capable of being good caretakers for your child.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[TexasRachel]

I agree with a lot of the pp in this thread that you need to look at yourself, and maybe talk to the someone, about your distrust of men. Excluding all men from teaching your dc isn't right. And I can guarantee it isn't possible, I don't care how big your ward is. At some point, there will be male teachers. When will you be ok with it? 8, 12, 18, never? As a primary presidency, we want and need men in primary. We need men to be good role models. We need them to help corral those rambunctious sunbeams. We need them to get those 11 year olds ready for the priesthood. They are a necessary part of primary, as in life, and the gospel.

 

Yes, there should be two men per class and I'm not sure why that wasn't in effect because it should've been. Although, even if it was, it sounds like you would've protested anyways. Quite honestly, though, staffing of the primary is always an ongoing headache of massive proportions. And if the parents don't come to us and express their concerns we just assume the teachers are working out. I'm also wondering if you had talked to this president and bishop about your request? Those type of things can get lost/forgotten about with releases/new callings.

 

It's entirely possible the primary leaders were discussing the situation and not gossiping about it. Yes, they were probably frustrated, but why do you assume they were malicious? I have issues with my DS's behaviour at times and have kept him with me occasionally. No one ever looks twice. There's always a lot going on with primary. I can't imagine anyone thought twice about it.

[QueenCat]

A couple more thoughts..

 

1) On the snarkiness..... were any of those you are accusing of being snarky WIVES of the men who you say aren't suitable to care for your children? If so, although snarkiness is not nice, they were probably reacting to the insult given to their husbands. And their friends went along with them.

 

2) If you and your dh were to take over nursery duty, wouldn't that be wrong, since you don't think men belong in the nursery?

 

Sorry, but I'm still stunned that anyone would say a man is not suited for the job just because he is a man. I've seen many men do better than some women in the nursery.

[DarlaS]

I agree with a lot of the pp in this thread that you need to look at yourself, and maybe talk to the someone, about your distrust of men. Excluding all men from teaching your dc isn't right. And I can guarantee it isn't possible, I don't care how big your ward is. At some point, there will be male teachers. When will you be ok with it? 8, 12, 18, never? As a primary presidency, we want and need men in primary. We need men to be good role models. We need them to help corral those rambunctious sunbeams. We need them to get those 11 year olds ready for the priesthood. They are a necessary part of primary, as in life, and the gospel.

 

Yes, there should be two men per class and I'm not sure why that wasn't in effect because it should've been. Although, even if it was, it sounds like you would've protested anyways. Quite honestly, though, staffing of the primary is always an ongoing headache of massive proportions. And if the parents don't come to us and express their concerns we just assume the teachers are working out. I'm also wondering if you had talked to this president and bishop about your request? Those type of things can get lost/forgotten about with releases/new callings.

 

It's entirely possible the primary leaders were discussing the situation and not gossiping about it. Yes, they were probably frustrated, but why do you assume they were malicious? I have issues with my DS's behaviour at times and have kept him with me occasionally. No one ever looks twice. There's always a lot going on with primary. I can't imagine anyone thought twice about it.

 

 

She already stated that her request applied only to her youngest two children.

[justasque]

:grouphug: I'm sorry for whatever has happened to make you so distrustful of men around your children. I can see that it is a genuine fear of yours. I think your fear is probably out of proportion to the real risk, but most fears are.

 

:iagree:

 

OP, my first instinct when anyone has an issue with volunteers is to suggest that they join the volunteer team, in part because then they are with their own kid, and in part because then they may realize how much goes into the job, and how hard it is to juggle all of the needs of all of the children, especially in a volunteer scenario. So my first thought would be that you volunteer in your dd's classroom. However, your music ministry is important too.

 

I think your daughter has valid separation concerns if she cannot communicate with other adults, and I think her concerns should be respected. She is still tiny, and there will be plenty of less stressful chances to separate as she gets older.

 

So - can your dh volunteer in your dd's classroom? That way, you can keep your music ministry, and your dd will have a familiar face caring for her at all times. If dh can't, perhaps Grandma or a trusted friend? (No one thus far has mentioned a dh; I don't know if you have one or not; if not, or if he is not available due to work, illness, etc., obviously this isn't an option.)

If not, I agree with others that you should either 1) give up the music ministry and volunteer in your dd's classroom (either as a formal teacher or as an informal assistant), or 2) keep your dd with you instead of sending her with the other children.

[jessicalb]

A couple more thoughts..

 

1) On the snarkiness..... were any of those you are accusing of being snarky WIVES of the men who you say aren't suitable to care for your children? If so, although snarkiness is not nice, they were probably reacting to the insult given to their husbands. And their friends went along with them.

 

That's really icky. If someone had a concern about my partner being around their children I would choose to speak with them and reassure them and give them the time and space they need.

 

Given that he has no bio kids of his own, I am hyper aware that this may be an issue and I work to build bridges, not get snotty about it. He's a fantastic guy and we adore him and our friends that know him like and trust him. I would not ask that anyone else trust him by proxy, and I would expect that getting snarky and gossipy about it would worsen those feelings, not improve trust or build relationships.

[mommaduck]

:iagree:

 

OP, my first instinct when anyone has an issue with volunteers is to suggest that they join the volunteer team, in part because then they are with their own kid, and in part because then they may realize how much goes into the job, and how hard it is to juggle all of the needs of all of the children, especially in a volunteer scenario. So my first thought would be that you volunteer in your dd's classroom. However, your music ministry is important too.

 

I think your daughter has valid separation concerns if she cannot communicate with other adults, and I think her concerns should be respected. She is still tiny, and there will be plenty of less stressful chances to separate as she gets older.

 

So - can your dh volunteer in your dd's classroom? That way, you can keep your music ministry, and your dd will have a familiar face caring for her at all times. If dh can't, perhaps Grandma or a trusted friend? (No one thus far has mentioned a dh; I don't know if you have one or not; if not, or if he is not available due to work, illness, etc., obviously this isn't an option.)

If not, I agree with others that you should either 1) give up the music ministry and volunteer in your dd's classroom (either as a formal teacher or as an informal assistant), or 2) keep your dd with you instead of sending her with the other children.

:iagree:

[QueenCat]

That's really icky. If someone had a concern about my partner being around their children I would choose to speak with them and reassure them and give them the time and space they need.

 

Sorry you think my thoughts are icky. I wasn't thinking they PLANNED on being snarky but were reacting in the moment, to being told/reminded that their husbands weren't allowed to stay where they were volunteering because one mom has something against men. I can see being upset if that happened to my dh, and venting to my friends about it.

Edited September 17, 2012 by CathieC

[jujsky]

I haven't read the responses, so forgive me if this has been asked already, but if there are 2 female teachers in the other 3 year-old class and a lone male teacher occasionally subs in your DD's 3 year-old class, why can't they send the 2nd female teacher with the male sub when this happens? Also, if there are subs available, why don't they get someone else to teach your DD's 3 yo class, and use the lady who currently teaches it (but often doesn't show) as a sub when she's available? It doesn't sound like anything nefarious is going on, but it's certainly poorly organized.

[Melinda in VT]

But they agreed to just that in advance.

 

I'm not sure who agreed to what and when, honestly.

 

It sounds like there have been two times when her wishes were not honored. One was when the person in charge of the nursery changed (and that incident was over a year ago). One was on one of the craziest Sundays for a Primary president, when they had to find a substitute and failed to honor the two-deep rule (which I think is something that should be mentioned to them) and forgot that one of the parents needed all teachers for that class to be female.

 

I honestly think that two incidents in two years is not bad. Keep in mind, the Primary president is not paid and did not even volunteer for her position. All she did was agree to serve when she was asked.

 

(And just to be clear--I'm a *former* member of this denomination, not a current one. I'm not motivated to defend the organization.)

[beaners]

Hmmmm. I don't know why, but the general idea of two men watching children of this age makes me a bit uneasy too if I think about it. I say that as someone who had an individual male teacher almost every year in Sunday School, and as someone who has been incredibly fortunate to never have any inappropriate sexual contact as either a child or adult. I don't think I have any "baggage" in this area, and it still makes me a bit uncomfortable to think of two unnamed men in this role. Maybe I'd feel differently if I knew them, but maybe not. I think the idea that anyone with this concern is disturbed in some way is out of line.

[justLisa]

This makes me really glad I don't go to church. I mean no snarkiness here, but really there is more drama in church than I can stand to hear of.

[jujsky]

:iagree:

 

I do think that you should express concern that there always be 2 adults, but I can't see how gender would matter.

 

I don't see why they don't mix up the males and females. I'm sure they have more female than male volunteers, so why can't they two females or a male and a female in the class? I think men are overly vilified by women, but even I wouldn't be 100% comfortable with 2 men watching my kids unless I knew them very well or unless they were gay. In general (no flames -- there are plenty of cases where this does not apply, hence "in general") women are more nurturing than men. I've also known several littles who were afraid of men. Separating from parents can be hard enough, but separating from parents and going away with someone you're afraid of can be very traumatic for a small child.

[QueenCat]

This makes me really glad I don't go to church. I mean no snarkiness here, but really there is more drama in church than I can stand to hear of.

 

I only see this kind of drama here.... not in the churches we've been members of. Not that any of them are perfect, they're run by humans, but I haven't seen people create this kind of drama irl.

[DarlaS]

Hmmmm. I don't know why, but the general idea of two men watching children of this age makes me a bit uneasy too if I think about it. I say that as someone who had an individual male teacher almost every year in Sunday School, and as someone who has been incredibly fortunate to never have any inappropriate sexual contact as either a child or adult. I don't think I have any "baggage" in this area, and it still makes me a bit uncomfortable to think of two unnamed men in this role. Maybe I'd feel differently if I knew them, but maybe not. I think the idea that anyone with this concern is disturbed in some way is out of line.

 

This.

 

We want to teach our daughters to trust their instincts when something makes them uncomfortable (Protecting the Gift anyone??), but never fail to collectively jump on a woman and accuse her of having issues with men when a specific incident occurs. What's up with that?

 

She "needs to talk to someone" because she does not want a single adult male teaching her three year old dd whose speech is unclear to most people outside the family (anyone else catch that part)? Really?

[mommymilkies]

This.

 

We want to teach our daughters to trust their instincts when something makes them uncomfortable (Protecting the Gift anyone??), but never fail to collectively jump on a woman and accuse her of having issues with men when a specific incident occurs. What's up with that?

 

She "needs to talk to someone" because she does not want a single adult male teaching her three year old dd whose speech is unclear to most people outside the family (anyone else catch that part)? Really?

 

I agree. I was raised by men and surrounded by male cousins. I am more comfortable with men. That said, this situation would make me uncomfortable. Yes, women can also be abusers, but it is soooooo less common. Read Protecting the Gift.

[TexasRachel]

This.

 

We want to teach our daughters to trust their instincts when something makes them uncomfortable (Protecting the Gift anyone??), but never fail to collectively jump on a woman and accuse her of having issues with men when a specific incident occurs. What's up with that?

 

She "needs to talk to someone" because she does not want a single adult male teaching her three year old dd whose speech is unclear to most people outside the family (anyone else catch that part)? Really?

 

She doesn't want men teaching her children. Even in two deep to protect themselves and the children. She's not trusting her instincts in this. She's saying all men aren't able to be around her dc. How does that teach anyone to trust their instincts?

 

I will also say, I missed the part where she had requested it for her small

dc, instead of all of her dc. I still think to automatically rule out all men is wrong. There are windows in all the doors. Check up on your kids and the teachers if you need to. If you have problems about a teacher, say so. But to decide that all men can't watch her young dc is wrong.

[QueenCat]

She doesn't want men teaching her children. Even in two deep to protect themselves and the children. She's not trusting her instincts in this. She's saying all men aren't able to be around her dc. How does that teach anyone to trust their instincts?

 

I will also say, I missed the part where she had requested it for her small

dc, instead of all of her dc. I still think to automatically rule out all men is wrong. There are windows in all the doors. Check up on your kids and the teachers if you need to. If you have problems about a teacher, say so. But to decide that all men can't watch her young dc is wrong.

 

I think this is where many of us have a problem, with the "all" men being bad for her young kids.... if there is a reason for a specific man or woman to not work with children, then address that specific situation through the proper channels.

[DianeW88]

I say this as nicely as possible. If you don't want certain people caring for your children then you should not leave them anywhere. Your making those other men look like they can't be trusted and people are having to worry about finding a sub at last minute that will suit your needs.

 

I don't know why you have this issue but it is your issue, not the churchs issue. Your also teaching your children that in general a man cannot be trusted which I find sad especially in church. If you are that distrustful then maybe seek counseling?

 

Not too add fuel to the fire but I have met quite a few women even in a church setting that I wouldn't want to care for my children. If this is a sexual nature surrounding your kids with only women is not going to be a safety net for you either. There are many sexual abusers who are women.

 

:iagree: Yep, this is your problem, not the Primary President's. If you aren't happy with who your dd has as a teacher on any given day, then you need to sit in class with her. It is out of the scope of the Primary President's job to search all around the ward to find an acceptable substitute for your dd's class that complies with all your stipulations. Maybe you should just ask the bishop if he'll call you as your dd's teacher. And honestly, I don't think you're doing your dd any favors by fostering such a mistrust of men.

[MinivanMom]

...

Edited September 17, 2012 by MinivanMom

[mommaduck]

I agree. I was raised by men and surrounded by male cousins. I am more comfortable with men. That said, this situation would make me uncomfortable. Yes, women can also be abusers, but it is soooooo less common. Read Protecting the Gift.

I don't believe it's as "less common" as many of you apparently believe. I also do not believe this can be accurately portrayed by statistics. And, yes, I'm speaking of various kinds of abuse, not just sexual abuse. I don't need to read a book to make me believe that I should be more leary of one gender over another. I believe we should be reasonably cautious of all people, regardless of gender, but not overly paranoid of either particular gender.

 

With this kind of thinking and my own history, I should then be entitled to insist that my children ALWAYS have at least one male in the classroom and there never be an all-female nursery.

Edited September 17, 2012 by mommaduck

[In The Great White North]

Maybe I'm missing something here, because it seems to me that it would have been incredibly easy to comply with mom's wishes in the first place.

 

Who assigns children to the class? If there was an already existing class with two female instructors, would it really have been all that difficult to put OP's daughter in it? Why was she assigned to the class where there was room for doubt?

 

If you're running something for children, and a mom has a request for her child that is easy to do, WHY NOT? It doesn't matter whether the Primary Pres (or anyone else) agrees with the mom or not. It feels like someone is on a power trip and has decided that she knows best for someone else's child.

[SKL]

Is there a reason why your daughter can't join the class that has the two established female teachers?

 

I do not entirely agree with your fears, but I think what I'm hearing in your OP is that you are being disrespected and ganged up upon because of a request you have made - a request that the boss agreed to respect.

 

It sounds like some people are acting very childish. Maybe you should prepare a very short but direct quip for the next time this starts up.

 

As for the logistical issues, I would just keep my child with me if I didn't feel comfortable with the child care arrangements. I don't care what anyone thinks of it. It's your mama instinct informing you, for whatever reason. It's nobody else's concern.

 

***

 

I am all for equal rights for men etc., but I have a daughter who, for a period of time, screamed inexplicably every time she got a new swim instructor who happened to be male. She's not the type to act crazy for no reason. Who am I to say there is no reason for her fear? As a preschooler/tot, she was never alone with a male (she has no dad/brothers), just because that's how logistics worked out. Come summer camp (age 5), she had a temporary male teacher and I was OK with that - but she is articulate enough to speak up if anything scary happens.

[Sara in AZ]

Maybe I'm missing something here, because it seems to me that it would have been incredibly easy to comply with mom's wishes in the first place.

 

Who assigns children to the class? If there was an already existing class with two female instructors, would it really have been all that difficult to put OP's daughter in it? Why was she assigned to the class where there was room for doubt?

 

If you're running something for children, and a mom has a request for her child that is easy to do, WHY NOT? It doesn't matter whether the Primary Pres (or anyone else) agrees with the mom or not. It feels like someone is on a power trip and has decided that she knows best for someone else's child.

 

Seriously. OP, have you talked to the bishop about just getting your daughter in the other class? I don't see why that would be a problem for anybody.

[8circles]

The denomination in question used to (don't know the current rules) have a rule against having one man and one woman teach together unless they were married. So, if you are trying to staff your nursery, you either need married couples, or you need two (or more) people of the same sex.

 

Traditionally, the women get called to serve with the kids, and personally I think it is fantastic to spread that around to the men.

 

Now, I always found that rule a little ridiculous since it's hard to think of a place less encouraging of romance than a room full of toddlers who just sat through 70 minutes of church and have two hours more to go, with no nap, but there it is.

 

Its surprising to me that married couples are allowed to serve together. This is usually NOT allowed in other organizations that I'm aware of, unless there is another non-related party also present. Interesting.

[Mrs Mungo]

Its surprising to me that married couples are allowed to serve together. This is usually NOT allowed in other organizations that I'm aware of, unless there is another non-related party also present. Interesting.

 

Agreed.

 

Back to the topic-I originally thought the Primary President's dd was in a different age group class. If they are the same age, then I agree, why not put her in there? Although, if someone doesn't show up and a substitute is needed, then this could still happen. I think I'm not completely getting the timeline straight.

[MinivanMom]

...

Edited September 17, 2012 by MinivanMom

[mommaduck]

This is my personal feel about the situation. It's so hard to convey the totality and complexity of a situation within a post, but this is how it has come across to me. Perhaps I am the one who has come across as demanding or dramatic, but I assure you I am never involved in drama and have never had a situation like this before.

 

The Primary President does have a problem with gossip and drama. She has a huge (very vocal) problem with the fact that I homeschool and homebirth. She is a woman I have made a point of avoiding in the past, which is probably not a good thing since I have probably missed opportunities to connect or build bridges with her. Her daughter is the same age as my daughter, but is very beautiful and articulate. She has been very aggressive about keeping them apart (too much to tell) and I am probably feeling very sensitive about the overall situation at this point. Every week her daughter has two female teachers, while I deliver my daughter to an empty row of chairs. As music leader for the children, I am right there to watch the situation, but I have been hurting for dd.

 

It feels like she is on a passive-aggressive power trip and it feels personal.

Ah, this clears things up a bit about her attitude. I was reading it as though it's possible that she just doesn't get why you are making a huge issue over it.

 

Though I don't agree with you fully on it, you are entitled to make these decisions for your family (imo), but you may also need to volunteer in that area to watch over your children yourself. I'm certain she was not happy feeling like you "went over her head" to the bishop and she was probably talked to about it by him. I hope things work out for you.

[bolt.]

The Primary President does have a problem with gossip and drama. She has a huge (very vocal) problem with the fact that I homeschool and homebirth. She is a woman I have made a point of avoiding in the past, which is probably not a good thing since I have probably missed opportunities to connect or build bridges with her. Her daughter is the same age as my daughter, but is very beautiful and articulate. She has been very aggressive about keeping them apart (too much to tell) and I am probably feeling very sensitive about the overall situation at this point. Every week her daughter has two female teachers, while I deliver my daughter to an empty row of chairs. As music leader for the children, I am right there to watch the situation, but I have been hurting for dd.

 

It feels like she is on a passive-aggressive power trip and it feels personal.

NOW! This thread makes sense!

 

I think you are completely right in this assessment, and I think something needs to be done about it... though I don't know what it would be. Have you considered other options for your family's church experiences?

[8circles]

This is my personal feel about the situation. It's so hard to convey the totality and complexity of a situation within a post, but this is how it has come across to me. Perhaps I am the one who has come across as demanding or dramatic, but I assure you I am never involved in drama and have never had a situation like this before.

 

The Primary President does have a problem with gossip and drama. She has a huge (very vocal) problem with the fact that I homeschool and homebirth. She is a woman I have made a point of avoiding in the past, which is probably not a good thing since I have probably missed opportunities to connect or build bridges with her. Her daughter is the same age as my daughter, but is very beautiful and articulate. She has been very aggressive about keeping them apart (too much to tell) and I am probably feeling very sensitive about the overall situation at this point. Every week her daughter has two female teachers, while I deliver my daughter to an empty row of chairs. As music leader for the children, I am right there to watch the situation, but I have been hurting for dd.

 

It feels like she is on a passive-aggressive power trip and it feels personal.

 

You know, I think you haven't handled this properly & do think your requests have been a bit unreasonable. But I also think you are probably right about your feelings about the Primary President.

[mommaduck]

 

ETA: Yes, it would be very easy to move my daughter to the other class, but the Primary President has not been willing to do that. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but all the little girls in the other class are her daughter's special friends and the children of her own friends. All the children from messy, less-active, divorced families are in my dd's class. It looks bad.

Could this be pointed out to the bishop as well? This is just wrong, imo. Children should not be divided up by class or home life situations. What kind of example does that show? IMNHO, it seems like she should not be in this position in the first place, since she has an issue with favouritism.

[kiana]

This is my personal feel about the situation. It's so hard to convey the totality and complexity of a situation within a post, but this is how it has come across to me. Perhaps I am the one who has come across as demanding or dramatic, but I assure you I am never involved in drama and have never had a situation like this before.

 

The Primary President does have a problem with gossip and drama. She has a huge (very vocal) problem with the fact that I homeschool and homebirth. She is a woman I have made a point of avoiding in the past, which is probably not a good thing since I have probably missed opportunities to connect or build bridges with her. Her daughter is the same age as my daughter, but is very beautiful and articulate. She has been very aggressive about keeping them apart (too much to tell) and I am probably feeling very sensitive about the overall situation at this point. Every week her daughter has two female teachers, while I deliver my daughter to an empty row of chairs. As music leader for the children, I am right there to watch the situation, but I have been hurting for dd.

 

It feels like she is on a passive-aggressive power trip and it feels personal.

 

ETA: Yes, it would be very easy to move my daughter to the other class, but the Primary President has not been willing to do that. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but all the little girls in the other class are her daughter's special friends and the children of her own friends. All the children from messy, less-active, divorced families are in my dd's class. It looks bad.

 

Ooh, with this added information I would be raising a stink, because your kid will be stuck at the same level as this other kid all the time, and she will always be in the class with the kids the other woman views as less desirable for her dd to associate with. And even if noone calls it that, the KIDS will pretty soon start referring to the class in derogatory terms, because that's how the adult in charge seems to view it.

 

What I was about to reply (and just saw your edit) was ... why on EARTH hasn't one of the TWO reliable female teachers been moved out of the other class and into this one?

[Parrothead]

 

She can't communicate needs to her teachers and she can't clearly communicate things back to me.

If this is the case I personally wouldn't leave any child who can't effectively communicate. I also personally feel that 3 is too young to be in Sunday school for reasons as simple as being unable to communicate well.

 

I also think it is unreasonable to expect a specific gender/race/nationality for teachers. Especially when it is within a volunteer organization. What happens when everyone starts doing that?

He wants a woman to teach his son

She wants a man to teach her son

They want a gay couple to teach their kid

He only wants a white man to teach his daughter

She only wants a half Russian/half Polish transgender named Sue to teach her kid

 

Where does it end?

 

I say keep your young child with you or keep her at home.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Parrothead

[Parrothead]

ETA: Yes, it would be very easy to move my daughter to the other class, but the Primary President has not been willing to do that. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but all the little girls in the other class are her daughter's special friends and the children of her own friends. All the children from messy, less-active, divorced families are in my dd's class. It looks bad.

If this is the case then her supervisor needs to be made aware of the situation. The fact that there is apparently a class without a teacher (male or female) needs to be addressed also. Why not put all the kids together?

Grudges, and a high-school social mentality have no place in a house of worship. She probably needs to be removed from her position.

[mom2myboys]

Could this be pointed out to the bishop as well? This is just wrong, imo. Children should not be divided up by class or home life situations. What kind of example does that show? IMNHO, it seems like she should not be in this position in the first place, since she has an issue with favouritism.

 

:iagree: