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This makes me really glad I don't go to church. I mean no snarkiness here, but really there is more drama in church than I can stand to hear of.

 

We're Catholic and my son is *gasp* an ALTER SERVER! I have complete trust in our parish priest until proven otherwise. Not all churches are like this. Not all people are for drama. My church is refreshingly drama free. Entirely.

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I think it would be best if you kept your dd with you. It is very hard for churches to find enough qualified volunteers and many men are very good with children in a wholesome way. Many children benefit from interaction with good hearted men, so I don't blame the church for allowing men to volunteer. They cannot always accomodate your request because it is already very hectic when the children's program is active and there are a lot of people and activities to coordinate. It's a volunteer army and something is sometimes going to fall through the cracks. So, if you feel that strongly about your dd not having a male teacher, then I really think that you should take the responsibility for her care upon yourself or make sure your husband, mother, etc. can keep her when you are teaching.

 

Any program, regardless of gender, should have two adults in each classroom. Even older children should have there comings and goings to and from the bathrooms monitored and if one is in the hallway, that means the class is unsupervised if there is not another volunteer, or the other option is that a child is wandering around the church unsupervised during class time. Gender doesn't really have as much to do with it as logistics. So, if there are multiple classrooms and multiple nurseries, the program coordinator has a lot of work to try and keep it all spinning.

 

Faith

 

:iagree:

 

Speaking gently: I directed children's church programs for many years. I would never agree to accommodate a request like that from a parent. Gender is not an appropriate reason to exclude someone from service. I will work hard finding appropriate volunteers, all of whom are exhaustively interviewed and background-checked and recommended and the whole nine yards. I will make sure that ALL teachers are teaching in teams--no child is EVER left alone with one teacher. I will train the teachers. At that point, I have provided as safe an environment as possible, and would consider a special request like that as an unreasonable encumbrance. I would advise the parent to be aware of who is teaching a class and to choose to either stay with the child themself or keep the child out of class.

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I think the info in your recent post brings more concerns to light, and I think it needs to be addressed. Deliberately excluding your dd from a class with all her friends while also ensuring her own dd is in just the right class, sounds like a power trip. It would be one thing if there were a group of girlfriends divided between 2 classes, but to split your dd from the group, and even knowing that moving your child to the female led class would be a simple fix. Just doesn't sound right to me. I'd try talking with the lady once more about your concerns, letting her know, nicely, that if things can't be fixed you will have to take your concerns to the bishop once more.

 

To those that were offended by my earlier post. I am aware that most predators are someone close, and I am very careful, I also know that the vast majority of sexual offenders are male, so we've made a rule that works for its family. I'm not chasing every man away from my dd and treating them as a potential pervert, and I don't bury my head in the sand thinking I've covered my bases this way. I've read Protecting The Gift, I think it's great. I stand by what I said in thinking that an all male nursery is something I would not be ok with. I am not ok with random men changing my children's diapers or helping them potty, and neither would dozens of my friends. I also wouldnt take it personally if a friend preferred my dh not watch her children solo or change her kids diapers. Fwiw, my dd does have a male SS teacher this year, he's 21 and there are 5 girls in his class. We have a small church and the original teacher had to retire suddenly due to her health so hdd's yelped in. My dd is 8 now and doesn't need help in the bathroom, she's never alone eith him, and we're all completely fine with it. I'm not anti male, and my kids are all very comfortableighth men. We are just incredibly careful who we allow to watch or care for our children, 99 percent of the time it's a SIL or sister or grandma, the other times we have one of 3 girls from church whom we know extremely well and fully trust.

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Well, you've added in a lot of very pertinent information. It really makes the entire situation very different from what it first sounded like. I would certainly bring up your concerns about the way the class is divided up with the bishop. I'm assuming that the classes are large enough that they can't easily be combined, but there should be no reason not to have each woman take one class.

 

Since your daughter cannot communicate well yet, it's important that she have a teacher who is both consistent and used to her. If you don't feel that is going to happen soon, you should keep her with you.

 

Certainly I think all this warrants a talk with the bishop--but be prepared to get a new calling as PP! ;)

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Well, you've added in a lot of very pertinent information. It really makes the entire situation very different from what it first sounded like. I would certainly bring up your concerns about the way the class is divided up with the bishop. I'm assuming that the classes are large enough that they can't easily be combined, but there should be no reason not to have each woman take one class.

 

Since your daughter cannot communicate well yet, it's important that she have a teacher who is both consistent and used to her. If you don't feel that is going to happen soon, you should keep her with you.

 

Certainly I think all this warrants a talk with the bishop--but be prepared to get a new calling as PP! ;)

 

:iagree: Sounds like this woman has been in for a while. Here's hoping she gets released soon!!!!!

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clarkacademy: I say this as nicely as possible. If you don't want certain people caring for your children then you should not leave them anywhere. Your making those other men look like they can't be trusted and people are having to worry about finding a sub at last minute that will suit your needs.

 

I don't know why you have this issue but it is your issue, not the churchs issue. Your also teaching your children that in general a man cannot be trusted which I find sad especially in church. If you are that distrustful then maybe seek counseling?

 

 

The snarky tone of this response and the suggestion to seek counseling is just way over the line.

 

It doesn't matter why she holds this position. Perhaps she is an abuse survivor. Perhaps she is in counseling. We don't know and it isn't our business. At any rate, it appears that she made a specific request and the church agreed to honor it. That's all that is relevant here.

 

That said, it does appear that the OP cannot rely upon the church to never use a male substitute, so she should be prepared at all times to keep her kids with her, if necessary.

 

Not too add fuel to the fire but I have met quite a few women even in a church setting that I wouldn't want to care for my children.

 

Agree with that, and her request could have easily been to ask that her children never be with Mrs. X. If the church agreed to try to honor it, it should honor it or let her know.

 

I always kept my kids with me when they were little. If they were too little to tell me what was happening in an informed way, they were too little to be watched by people I don't know well, in my opinion.

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As for the email letter you got. It could feel off because you know this lady has been gossiping behind your back and only wrote the letter because she was reprimanded for how she was running the nurseries. The words are without true feeling. If she was truly sorry she would have contacted you in person. I am sorry you have to deal with this. We have left churches because the children's ministry was not being conducted properly.

 

 

I think this is probably pretty accurate.

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Maybe I'm missing something here, because it seems to me that it would have been incredibly easy to comply with mom's wishes in the first place.

 

Who assigns children to the class? If there was an already existing class with two female instructors, would it really have been all that difficult to put OP's daughter in it? Why was she assigned to the class where there was room for doubt?

 

If you're running something for children, and a mom has a request for her child that is easy to do, WHY NOT? It doesn't matter whether the Primary Pres (or anyone else) agrees with the mom or not. It feels like someone is on a power trip and has decided that she knows best for someone else's child.

 

Exactly.

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The Primary President does have a problem with gossip and drama. She has a huge (very vocal) problem with the fact that I homeschool and homebirth. She is a woman I have made a point of avoiding in the past, which is probably not a good thing since I have probably missed opportunities to connect or build bridges with her. Her daughter is the same age as my daughter, but is very beautiful and articulate. She has been very aggressive about keeping them apart (too much to tell) and I am probably feeling very sensitive about the overall situation at this point. Every week her daughter has two female teachers, while I deliver my daughter to an empty row of chairs. As music leader for the children, I am right there to watch the situation, but I have been hurting for dd.

 

It feels like she is on a passive-aggressive power trip and it feels personal.

 

ETA: Yes, it would be very easy to move my daughter to the other class, but the Primary President has not been willing to do that. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but all the little girls in the other class are her daughter's special friends and the children of her own friends. All the children from messy, less-active, divorced families are in my dd's class. It looks bad.

 

Wow, I'd go to bat on that one or get out of Dodge.

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it can be hard to find someone to fill a calling as it really is more than "just a warm body". a fair question to ask would be if they have considered calling a new teacher for that class so those children can have stability. go ahead and let them know you're willing to teach that class so they can have stability. they'll be changing classes in january, and your daughter could have some stability for primary with you. part of primary, especially for the littles, is supposed to help them have good exepriences at church. no teacher, different teacher every week, etc. is not a good experience. I would imagine you're not the only parent in the class who is unhappy with the lack of stability.

 

what comes across as wrong with the e-mail is a complete lack of sincerity in the apology. it reeks of insincerity like the "I will not throw spitwads" written on the blackboard 100 times by an 11 yo boy. (maybe she should write you another 99 apologies.;))

 

You did the right thing in going to the bishop (especially as this PP is gossiping so blatantly, she wants you to know it.). she's probably pretty angry to be called out on her own behavior. even if she didn't realize all the pieces at the time, her response when she learned of it were totally out of line - and part of her knows it but she's not remoresful about it either.

 

eta: the only reason I did not say anything about your objection to a male teacher ** is I have a friend whose son was repeatedly molested by a man (not his teacher), and he freaks out when being alone with any man. (he's in therapy) that is one of the few instances I know of where it would be considered a very legitimate request - even if some still dont' understand it. (and some don't.)

 

**I don't understand what the problem is, and my girls had male teachers at that age. that was before the two teachers - of any gender - policy was insituted.)

Edited by gardenmom5
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Firstly, I will completely agree that your primary president is out of line in the gossiping/drama stuff. It is belittling, backbiting, and completely out of line.

 

This next part, though, I want you take very gently. I don't mean to push your feelings aside or make you feel uncomfortable. Rather, I'd like to show you what the other side feels like...

 

I am currently serving as primary president in our ward. We are also practicing our primary program this month. Sundays, I am concerned about making sure the children are seated on the stand in an appropriate manner, that their demeanor is in respect for the room in which they are seated, working through the program, making sure that we are out of the chapel in time for the next ward to come in to set their sacrament, having the chairs set up in the primary room, teaching sharing time, making sure each class has a teacher, making sure the music is going well, checking in with our two nurseries, making sure attendance is completed, and--the most important--teaching and testifying to the children the gospel. It is a DAUNTING task. Most Sundays, I come home and completely fall over from exhaustion. This does not include things like shuffling around my kids, making sure my husband is magnifying his calling, etc, etc. On first, third, and fifth Sundays (like yesterday was) I also attend ward council. I'm sure you can see how exhausting it is.

 

When a teacher no-shows in Primary, it's a sinking feeling and a scramble to find someone. I don't know about in your ward, but in our ward, the younger the kids, the less willing they are to sub at the last minute. It makes it very difficult to find a last-minute teacher. And of course, with everything else that I'm trying to accomplish (and in effect, my presidency as well), it is another stress to worry about. In our primary, we value the influence of worthy priesthood teachers. They bring a power to sharing the gospel. On top of that, men can be a lot more fun than women!

 

The handbook DOES say that men serving in primary should be two-deep, yes. BUT, there is also the stipulation that in smaller areas, men can teach alone as long as a member of the primary presidency is constantly checking on the class. It does not sound as though your area is small, but it might be that the sample of willing last-minute teachers IS small. And, it does sound as if your stake is particular in abiding by the two-deep rule. If your primary president continues to ignore that rule, you might consider notifying your stake primary president.

 

With this particular situation, though, I would bet that going to the bishop isn't necessarily helping your situation because he is not the source. You might consider requesting time to meet with the entire primary presidency. While this particular president may be on a power trip (I HATE that!), her presidency may be more willing to listen and understand what you feel, especially about the consistency in your daughter's class.

 

As a primary president, however, it's very impractical for you to require that your daughter have a female teacher at all times. It's just not feasible at times. My suggestion for you here would to either ask to be released so you can be the primary's floating sub OR, when all they can come up with is male teachers, then you keep your little sunbeam with you. As a parent, that is your right.

 

:grouphug: This is really a sticky situation, especially with all the drama of the primary president. If you talk with the whole presidency, it could really set the story straight with others.

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We're Catholic and my son is *gasp* an ALTER SERVER! I have complete trust in our parish priest until proven otherwise. Not all churches are like this. Not all people are for drama. My church is refreshingly drama free. Entirely.

 

Oh I know. My inlaws are Catholic and when they visit I go with them. It is entirely different than I was raised.

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Well, when Dd was a baby/toddler, she was afraid of men at church. Maybe it was the sound of their voices. I was embarrassed because I didn't want them to be embarrassed, and I was very quick to point out her general sensitivity, so that there wouldn't be any hurt feelings. I was always with her in the nursery and other places. Now, however, some of her best and most favorite teachers in various activities are male teachers. She went up a grade in Sunday school and couldn't remain with this one male teacher, and was just so sad. He was truly gifted with little kids, and so far, I haven't seen anyone else like that. Also, I've observed that DD does better with male teachers, and sometimes I specifically will choose a male over a female.

 

BUT, OP, you need to go with your instincts as your Dd is young. I followed my Dd's instincts until she outgrew them.

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We're Catholic and my son is *gasp* an ALTER SERVER! I have complete trust in our parish priest until proven otherwise. Not all churches are like this. Not all people are for drama. My church is refreshingly drama free. Entirely.

 

If there were drama, I would just leave, but I don't think the OP can, unless she moved out of the ward's boundaries.

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